Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[Gareth Evans]

On Fri 01/03/2024 at 11:16, Andy Smith  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Mar 01, 2024 at 11:00:13AM +, Gareth Evans wrote:
>> "Don’t impersonate Gmail From: headers. Gmail will begin using a DMARC 
>> quarantine enforcement policy, and impersonating Gmail From: headers might 
>> impact your email delivery."
>
> Talks about gmail's own use of DMARC, not the sender's.

That makes perfect sense :)

>> Can a "DMARC quarantine enforcement policy" operate, if the sender
>> doesn't use DMARC?  This idea seems to relate more to SPF than
>> anything?
>
> gmail's own policy is quarantine so if you send from somewhere that
> isn't gmail, while pretending to be from a gmail property, gmail
> indicates that it wishes¹ for your email to be quarantined by the
> recipient.

So does that.

> Thanks,.
> Andy
>
> ¹ Even receiving sites that process DMARC sometimes don't carry out
>   the DMARC author's wishes. As a common example that most of us
>   will have seen, Mailman mailing lists will often just selectively
>   rewrite the headers.

Yes.

Thanks very much.
G

>
> -- 
> https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Fri, Mar 01, 2024 at 11:00:13AM +, Gareth Evans wrote:
> https://support.google.com/a/answer/81126?hl=en#requirements-5k&zippy=%2Crequirements-for-sending-or-more-messages-per-day%2Crequirements-for-all-senders
> 
> mentions DMARC in requirements for all senders:
> 
> "Don’t impersonate Gmail From: headers. Gmail will begin using a DMARC 
> quarantine enforcement policy, and impersonating Gmail From: headers might 
> impact your email delivery."

Talks about gmail's own use of DMARC, not the sender's.

> Can a "DMARC quarantine enforcement policy" operate, if the sender
> doesn't use DMARC?  This idea seems to relate more to SPF than
> anything?

gmail's own policy is quarantine so if you send from somewhere that
isn't gmail, while pretending to be from a gmail property, gmail
indicates that it wishes¹ for your email to be quarantined by the
recipient.

Thanks,.
Andy

¹ Even receiving sites that process DMARC sometimes don't carry out
  the DMARC author's wishes. As a common example that most of us
  will have seen, Mailman mailing lists will often just selectively
  rewrite the headers.

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[Gareth Evans]

On Fri 01/03/2024 at 11:00, Gareth Evans  wrote:
>  This idea seems to relate more to SPF than anything?

Or DKIM, indeed, as you say Andy, at least one of which is the authentication 
component.  
Documentation could be clearer.

Thanks
G

Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[Gareth Evans]

On Fri 01/03/2024 at 09:18, Andy Smith  wrote:

> Just for the record, the Authentication part of DMARC is done with
> SPF and/or DKIM; the large mailbox providers actually (since 1 Feb)
> require *either* SPF *or* DKIM passes, or both if you are a bulk
> sender (thousands of mails per day).
>
> DMARC itself remains optional (but recommended) and once taken
> separately from SPF and DKIM is mainly a reporting mechanism.

https://support.google.com/a/answer/81126?hl=en#requirements-5k&zippy=%2Crequirements-for-sending-or-more-messages-per-day%2Crequirements-for-all-senders

mentions DMARC in requirements for all senders:

"Don’t impersonate Gmail From: headers. Gmail will begin using a DMARC 
quarantine enforcement policy, and impersonating Gmail From: headers might 
impact your email delivery."

but only explicitly requires it in requirements for senders of >5,000 messages 
a day:

"Set up DMARC email authentication for your sending domain ..."

...which is not quite as clear as it might be.

Can a "DMARC quarantine enforcement policy" operate, if the sender doesn't use 
DMARC?  This idea seems to relate more to SPF than anything?

Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Fri, Mar 01, 2024 at 01:42:07AM +, Gareth Evans wrote:
> I have somehow only just discovered that Gmail, Apple and Yahoo
> are introducing, or have recently introduced, DMARC requirements
> for senders.

Just for the record, the Authentication part of DMARC is done with
SPF and/or DKIM; the large mailbox providers actually (since 1 Feb)
require *either* SPF *or* DKIM passes, or both if you are a bulk
sender (thousands of mails per day).

DMARC itself remains optional (but recommended) and once taken
separately from SPF and DKIM is mainly a reporting mechanism.

> I am subscribed to mailop (though don't read it as often as I
> should!) but from a mail search there doesn't seem to have been
> anything there about this recently.

This has been discussed at length on mailop since well back in 2023.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[tomas]

On Fri, Mar 01, 2024 at 08:19:42AM +, Michael Grant wrote:
> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
> 
> And the main page 
> https://www.mailop.org/

Thanks abig bunch!
-- 
tomás


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Description: PGP signature

Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[Michael Grant]

https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop

And the main page 
https://www.mailop.org/


On 1 March 2024 05:43:44 GMT, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 01, 2024 at 01:42:07AM +, Gareth Evans wrote:
>> I have somehow only just discovered that Gmail, Apple and Yahoo are 
>> introducing, or have recently introduced, DMARC requirements for senders.
>> 
>> See for exmaple
>> https://www.proofpoint.com/us/blog/email-and-cloud-threats/google-and-yahoo-set-new-email-authentication-requirements
>> 
>> Can anyone recommend good mailing lists or other resources for people who 
>> look after email servers/services?  It takes up little of my work, but an 
>> area of interest.
>
>Me too :)
>
>ISTR that there was a mention of such a thing here in debian-user@,
>but my search-fu hasn't been up to the challenge of finding it.
>
>OTOH, my memory could be playing games on me.
>
>Cheers
>-- 
>t

Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[Marco Moock]

Am 01.03.2024 schrieb "Gareth Evans" :

> I am subscribed to mailop (though don't read it as often as I
> should!) but from a mail search there doesn't seem to have been
> anything there about this recently.

That topic has been discussed there, you can find those discussions in
the archive (you need to be subscribed to read it).

Re: {OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[tomas]

On Fri, Mar 01, 2024 at 01:42:07AM +, Gareth Evans wrote:
> I have somehow only just discovered that Gmail, Apple and Yahoo are 
> introducing, or have recently introduced, DMARC requirements for senders.
> 
> See for exmaple
> https://www.proofpoint.com/us/blog/email-and-cloud-threats/google-and-yahoo-set-new-email-authentication-requirements
> 
> Can anyone recommend good mailing lists or other resources for people who 
> look after email servers/services?  It takes up little of my work, but an 
> area of interest.

Me too :)

ISTR that there was a mention of such a thing here in debian-user@,
but my search-fu hasn't been up to the challenge of finding it.

OTOH, my memory could be playing games on me.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

{OT] Mailing lists etc for postmasters

[Gareth Evans]

I have somehow only just discovered that Gmail, Apple and Yahoo are 
introducing, or have recently introduced, DMARC requirements for senders.

See for exmaple
https://www.proofpoint.com/us/blog/email-and-cloud-threats/google-and-yahoo-set-new-email-authentication-requirements

Can anyone recommend good mailing lists or other resources for people who look 
after email servers/services?  It takes up little of my work, but an area of 
interest.

I half expected to be able to find mailing lists for postmasters run by the big 
email service providers, but ddg was bare.

Gmail's blog looks more marketingy than anything, but potentially useful
https://blog.google/products/gmail/

I am subscribed to mailop (though don't read it as often as I should!) but from 
a mail search there doesn't seem to have been anything there about this 
recently.

Many thanks,
Gareth

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing lists [No updates Dec 2022]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of
  the form: 

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Monthly FAQ for Debian-user mailing lists [No updates November 2022]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

Debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific, for example, debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists, for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; do not
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of
  the form: 

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
cached by Google and so on.

Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure that all copies
anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 13 March 2021 23:25:53 David Wright wrote:

> On Fri 12 Mar 2021 at 22:50:48 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 12 March 2021 21:18:16 David Wright wrote:
> > > On Fri 12 Mar 2021 at 18:36:09 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > On Friday 12 March 2021 17:13:40 David Wright wrote:
> > > > > On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 15:00:06 (-0700), Charles Curley wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:49:51 -0400 Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > > > > > > Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of
> > > > > > > every message?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Time zone: GMT-4
> > > > > > > Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, the time zone is redundant, as it is indicated in
> > > > > > the time/date stamp on your emails, as indicated above.
> > > > >
> > > > > It only works with the first level of attribution, because the
> > > > > next person to quote the quote may have a different timezone
> > > > > in their header.
> > > > >
> > > > > And that leaves aside the problem of attributions that have
> > > > > been silently converted into the quoter's timezone, with or
> > > > > without a new TZ being specified).
> > > > >
> > > > > Plus, it does appear that there are MUAs that attribute the
> > > > > time of a quote to the time at which the replier *started
> > > > > their reply* to the original email, which is completely
> > > > > bizarre. (There are several such MUAs posting here.)
> > > >
> > > > Care to point some fingers at them?
> > >
> > > As long as it's clear I'm pointing at the technology, not the
> > > user.
> > >
> > > Hot off the press:
> > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00735.html
> > >
> > > This pair is odd; is the MUA using the time of arrival of the
> > > OP at some location?
> > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/12/msg00968.html
> > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/12/msg00970.html
> >
> > Might the OP be useing a hot spot?
>
> Oh, these suggestions were just straws I was grasping at.
>
> For example, someone using a getmail-a-like might latch on
> to the time of that transfer (local time, in localised format …)
> and prefer it to the proper Date:.
>
> And the time of reply would be an obvious consequence of
> evaluating $(date) rather than $(date --date="… …") from
> the Date: field.
>
> > Well, at least it isn't me. KMail has been good for me for around 2
> > decades, and the tde version has been quite solid, generally
> > speaking.
>
> Heh, heh, you'd have heard about it before now. :)

Without a doubt, David, there are folks here who know far more than I 
about the finer points. And the proper attitude is to welcome the 
education. Unforch, I am observing a huge rejection of that idea over on 
the clamav list. And its getting damned boring.

> Cheers,
> David.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[David Wright]

On Fri 12 Mar 2021 at 22:50:48 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 12 March 2021 21:18:16 David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 12 Mar 2021 at 18:36:09 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Friday 12 March 2021 17:13:40 David Wright wrote:
> > > > On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 15:00:06 (-0700), Charles Curley wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:49:51 -0400 Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > > > > > Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of
> > > > > > every message?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Time zone: GMT-4
> > > > > > Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, the time zone is redundant, as it is indicated in the
> > > > > time/date stamp on your emails, as indicated above.
> > > >
> > > > It only works with the first level of attribution, because the
> > > > next person to quote the quote may have a different timezone in
> > > > their header.
> > > >
> > > > And that leaves aside the problem of attributions that have been
> > > > silently converted into the quoter's timezone, with or without a
> > > > new TZ being specified).
> > > >
> > > > Plus, it does appear that there are MUAs that attribute the time
> > > > of a quote to the time at which the replier *started their reply*
> > > > to the original email, which is completely bizarre. (There are
> > > > several such MUAs posting here.)
> > >
> > > Care to point some fingers at them?
> >
> > As long as it's clear I'm pointing at the technology, not the user.
> >
> > Hot off the press:
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00735.html
> >
> > This pair is odd; is the MUA using the time of arrival of the
> > OP at some location?
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/12/msg00968.html
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/12/msg00970.html
> >
> Might the OP be useing a hot spot?

Oh, these suggestions were just straws I was grasping at.

For example, someone using a getmail-a-like might latch on
to the time of that transfer (local time, in localised format …)
and prefer it to the proper Date:.

And the time of reply would be an obvious consequence of
evaluating $(date) rather than $(date --date="… …") from
the Date: field.

> Well, at least it isn't me. KMail has been good for me for around 2 
> decades, and the tde version has been quite solid, generally speaking.

Heh, heh, you'd have heard about it before now. :)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 12 March 2021 21:18:16 David Wright wrote:

> On Fri 12 Mar 2021 at 18:36:09 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 12 March 2021 17:13:40 David Wright wrote:
> > > On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 15:00:06 (-0700), Charles Curley wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:49:51 -0400 Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > > > > Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of
> > > > > every message?
> > > > >
> > > > > Time zone: GMT-4
> > > > > Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec
> > > >
> > > > Actually, the time zone is redundant, as it is indicated in the
> > > > time/date stamp on your emails, as indicated above.
> > >
> > > It only works with the first level of attribution, because the
> > > next person to quote the quote may have a different timezone in
> > > their header.
> > >
> > > And that leaves aside the problem of attributions that have been
> > > silently converted into the quoter's timezone, with or without a
> > > new TZ being specified).
> > >
> > > Plus, it does appear that there are MUAs that attribute the time
> > > of a quote to the time at which the replier *started their reply*
> > > to the original email, which is completely bizarre. (There are
> > > several such MUAs posting here.)
> >
> > Care to point some fingers at them?
>
> As long as it's clear I'm pointing at the technology, not the user.
>
> Hot off the press:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00735.html
>
> This pair is odd; is the MUA using the time of arrival of the
> OP at some location?
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/12/msg00968.html
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/12/msg00970.html
>
Might the OP be useing a hot spot?

> Cheers,
> David.

Well, at least it isn't me. KMail has been good for me for around 2 
decades, and the tde version has been quite solid, generally speaking.

Thanks David.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[David Wright]

On Fri 12 Mar 2021 at 18:36:09 (-0500), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 12 March 2021 17:13:40 David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 15:00:06 (-0700), Charles Curley wrote:
> > > On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:49:51 -0400 Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > > > Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every
> > > > message?
> > > >
> > > > Time zone: GMT-4
> > > > Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec
> > >
> > > Actually, the time zone is redundant, as it is indicated in the
> > > time/date stamp on your emails, as indicated above.
> >
> > It only works with the first level of attribution, because the next
> > person to quote the quote may have a different timezone in their
> > header.
> >
> > And that leaves aside the problem of attributions that have been
> > silently converted into the quoter's timezone, with or without a
> > new TZ being specified).
> >
> > Plus, it does appear that there are MUAs that attribute the time
> > of a quote to the time at which the replier *started their reply*
> > to the original email, which is completely bizarre. (There are
> > several such MUAs posting here.)
> 
> Care to point some fingers at them?

As long as it's clear I'm pointing at the technology, not the user.

Hot off the press:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00735.html

This pair is odd; is the MUA using the time of arrival of the
OP at some location?
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/12/msg00968.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/12/msg00970.html

Cheers,
David.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 12 March 2021 17:13:40 David Wright wrote:

> On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 15:00:06 (-0700), Charles Curley wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:49:51 -0400 Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > > Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every
> > > message?
> > >
> > > Time zone: GMT-4
> > > Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec
> >
> > Actually, the time zone is redundant, as it is indicated in the
> > time/date stamp on your emails, as indicated above.
>
> It only works with the first level of attribution, because the next
> person to quote the quote may have a different timezone in their
> header.
>
> And that leaves aside the problem of attributions that have been
> silently converted into the quoter's timezone, with or without a
> new TZ being specified).
>
> Plus, it does appear that there are MUAs that attribute the time
> of a quote to the time at which the replier *started their reply*
> to the original email, which is completely bizarre. (There are
> several such MUAs posting here.)

Care to point some fingers at them?

> Cheers,
> David.

Thanks David.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[David Wright]

On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 15:00:06 (-0700), Charles Curley wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:49:51 -0400 Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> 
> > Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every
> > message?
> 
> > Time zone: GMT-4
> > Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec
> 
> Actually, the time zone is redundant, as it is indicated in the
> time/date stamp on your emails, as indicated above.

It only works with the first level of attribution, because the next
person to quote the quote may have a different timezone in their header.

And that leaves aside the problem of attributions that have been
silently converted into the quoter's timezone, with or without a
new TZ being specified).

Plus, it does appear that there are MUAs that attribute the time
of a quote to the time at which the replier *started their reply*
to the original email, which is completely bizarre. (There are
several such MUAs posting here.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cindy Sue Causey]

On 3/11/21, Tixy  wrote:
> On Thu, 2021-03-11 at 13:25 -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
>> 11 mar 2021 10:40,  wrote:[1]
>> > I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If
>> > I want to
>> > find the original email which might have more context, that is very
>> > helpful.
>>
>> Let me see.  Does this [1] work for you?
>
> Butting into this discussion...
>
> I would suggest that the automatically inserted Spanish version is fine
> and shouldn't be edited. There comes a point where the inconvenience to
> the person sending the message outweighs the trivial benefits to the
> person receiving it.


These are international lists, too. I enjoy being reminded of that via
the attribution when a reply retains the author's language.

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with birdseed *

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[rhkramer]

On Thursday, March 11, 2021 05:00:06 PM Charles Curley wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:49:51 -0400
> 
> Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z  wrote:
> > Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every
> > message?
> > 
> > 
> > Time zone: GMT-4
> > Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec
> 
> Actually, the time zone is redundant, as it is indicated in the
> time/date stamp on your emails, as indicated above.

Well it is present in the time stamp quoted above, but the time zone does not 
show up in the (original?) Spanish timestamp.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:49:51 -0400
Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z  wrote:

> Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every
> message?
> 

> Time zone: GMT-4
> Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

Actually, the time zone is redundant, as it is indicated in the
time/date stamp on your emails, as indicated above.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Charles Curley]

On 21 Ventôse an 229 de la Révolution 12:32:01 -0600
David Wright  wrote:

> One small point: timezones are a great help in making the time
> relevant. I agree on language, no bother. Hey, we've even had one
> person using the French Revolutionary Calendar.

Anyone have any problems with the Mayan calendar? Today being Long
count = 13.0.8.6.2; tzolkin = 3 Ik; haab = 5 Cumku.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Brian]

On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 12:30:43 -0500, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 2021-03-11 at 12:10, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Mar 11 2021 at 10:40,  wrote:
> > 
> >> I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If
> >> I want to find the original email which might have more context,
> >> that is very helpful.
> > 
> > I could try but it is more problematic for quick answers since I
> > have the interface in Spanish, unless you don't mind reading:
> > "El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 10:40,  escribió:"
> 
> For myself, that wouldn't bother me at all. I've seen attribution lines
> in less-recognizable languages, and since all the key information is
> still there and can be parsed with reasonably minimal effort, it serves
> the purpose just fine.

Agreed.
 
> I'd certainly prefer attribution lines like that than a complete lack of
> attribution, or ones with less information, in any case.

Anothe agrement,

It's a pity that Gnus appears incapable of providing an attribution.
Evidence is here:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg00535.html

-- 
Brian.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 15:12,  escribió:
> Yes, especially the Time zone.  The months I can probably figure out.

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 15:24, David Wright
() escribió:
> No need for the months. People rarely post replies to such old messages.
> As for inserting it manually, the disadvantage is that it's misleading
> when it's wrong. For example, we change clocks in under a week, and it
> would be easy to forget this instance of a "clock".

Ok thanks.

The month could be useful for archival purposes.  If someone would
like to search
for something even on old threads, then he could find the posts more easy.
But if you really think it is not needed, then I could remove it to not bloat my
posts with that odd signature.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4
Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[David Wright]

On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 14:49:51 (-0400), Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:30,  escribió:
> > I can live with that ;-)
> 
> El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:30,  escribió:
> > Yes that works for me, but I can live with the Spanish, as well.
> 
> El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:32 (GMT-4), David Wright
> () escribió:[1]
> > One small point: timezones are a great help in making the time relevant.
> > I agree on language, no bother. Hey, we've even had one person using the
> > French Revolutionary Calendar.
> 
> Are you talking about this [1].  I wish that Gmail had an option for
> this too, but I don't know
> if there is one, then I had to write it manually.  While at the PC it
> isn't so difficult,
> it becomes a problem when you write from a phone.

Well, I wouldn't sweat over it. When it's no effort, then it does help
to have the timezone, otherwise you can only rely on the date and the
minutes when searching back as someone described.

For myself, it's just a file with
 set attribution="On %{%a %d %b %Y} at %{%H:%M:%S (%z)}, %n wrote:"
in it, and I can forget about it. Unfortunately, not everybody has
it as easy.

> Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every message?
> 
> -- 
> Time zone: GMT-4
> Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

No need for the months. People rarely post replies to such old messages.
As for inserting it manually, the disadvantage is that it's misleading
when it's wrong. For example, we change clocks in under a week, and it
would be easy to forget this instance of a "clock".

Cheers,
David.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[rhkramer]

On Thursday, March 11, 2021 01:49:51 PM Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every message?
-- 
Time zone: GMT-4
Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

Yes, especially the Time zone.  The months I can probably figure out.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:30,  escribió:
> I can live with that ;-)

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:30,  escribió:
> Yes that works for me, but I can live with the Spanish, as well.

Thanks

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:32 (GMT-4), David Wright
() escribió:[1]
> One small point: timezones are a great help in making the time relevant.
> I agree on language, no bother. Hey, we've even had one person using the
> French Revolutionary Calendar.

Are you talking about this [1].  I wish that Gmail had an option for
this too, but I don't know
if there is one, then I had to write it manually.  While at the PC it
isn't so difficult,
it becomes a problem when you write from a phone.

Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every message?

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4
Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[David Wright]

On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 17:42:48 (+), Tixy wrote:
> On Thu, 2021-03-11 at 13:25 -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > 11 mar 2021 10:40,  wrote:[1]
> > > I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If
> > > I want to
> > > find the original email which might have more context, that is very
> > > helpful.
> > 
> > Let me see.  Does this [1] work for you?
> 
> Butting into this discussion...
> 
> I would suggest that the automatically inserted Spanish version is fine
> and shouldn't be edited. There comes a point where the inconvenience to
> the person sending the message outweighs the trivial benefits to the
> person receiving it.

One small point: timezones are a great help in making the time relevant.
I agree on language, no bother. Hey, we've even had one person using the
French Revolutionary Calendar.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[rhkramer]

On Thursday, March 11, 2021 12:25:08 PM Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> 11 mar 2021 10:40,  wrote:[1]
> 
> > I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If I
> > want to find the original email which might have more context, that is
> > very helpful.
> 
> Let me see.  Does this [1] work for you?

Yes that works for me, but I can live with the Spanish, as well.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[rhkramer]

On Thursday, March 11, 2021 12:10:30 PM Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 11 2021 at 10:40,  wrote:
> > I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If I
> > want to find the original email which might have more context, that is
> > very helpful.
> 
> I could try but it is more problematic for quick answers since I have
> the interface in Spanish, unless you don't mind reading:
> "El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 10:40,  escribió:"

I can live with that ;-)

...
> 
> Thanks for pointing it out.  It will surely be helpful.

You're welcome!

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 13:31, The Wanderer () escribió:
> For myself, that wouldn't bother me at all. I've seen attribution lines
> in less-recognizable languages, and since all the key information is
> still there and can be parsed with reasonably minimal effort, it serves
> the purpose just fine.
>
> I'd certainly prefer attribution lines like that than a complete lack of
> attribution, or ones with less information, in any case.

 El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 13:43, Tixy () escribió:
> I would suggest that the automatically inserted Spanish version is fine
> and shouldn't be edited. There comes a point where the inconvenience to
> the person sending the message outweighs the trivial benefits to the
> person receiving it.

Thanks.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Tixy]

On Thu, 2021-03-11 at 13:25 -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> 11 mar 2021 10:40,  wrote:[1]
> > I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If
> > I want to
> > find the original email which might have more context, that is very
> > helpful.
> 
> Let me see.  Does this [1] work for you?

Butting into this discussion...

I would suggest that the automatically inserted Spanish version is fine
and shouldn't be edited. There comes a point where the inconvenience to
the person sending the message outweighs the trivial benefits to the
person receiving it.

-- 
Tixy

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[The Wanderer]

On 2021-03-11 at 12:10, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 11 2021 at 10:40,  wrote:
> 
>> I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If
>> I want to find the original email which might have more context,
>> that is very helpful.
> 
> I could try but it is more problematic for quick answers since I
> have the interface in Spanish, unless you don't mind reading:
> "El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 10:40,  escribió:"

For myself, that wouldn't bother me at all. I've seen attribution lines
in less-recognizable languages, and since all the key information is
still there and can be parsed with reasonably minimal effort, it serves
the purpose just fine.

I'd certainly prefer attribution lines like that than a complete lack of
attribution, or ones with less information, in any case.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

11 mar 2021 10:40,  wrote:[1]
> I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If I want to
> find the original email which might have more context, that is very helpful.

Let me see.  Does this [1] work for you?

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

On Thu, Mar 11 2021 at 10:40,  wrote:
> I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If I want to
> find the original email which might have more context, that is very helpful.

I could try but it is more problematic for quick answers since I have
the interface in Spanish, unless you don't mind reading:
"El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 10:40,  escribió:"

> Aside: You (Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z) obviously know how (in the gmail browser
> client) to display the previous text which will be quoted, but for people that
> may not know:
>
> When you click reply in that gmail browser client, you don't see the previous
> text, but, near the bottom of the textbox (on the right side), there are three
> dots (bigger than a period) in an ellipse.  If you click on those, the
> previous text is displayed, and you can delete text or intermix your comments
> as desired.

Thanks for pointing it out.  It will surely be helpful.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[rhkramer]

On Thursday, March 11, 2021 07:30:02 AM Brian wrote:
> On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 07:59:27 -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > Brian () wrote:
> > > Please would you not remove the attribution when you quote a mail?
> > 
> > Sure.  Like this?  Or should I leave the date and hour too?
> 
> Thanks; much better. Personally, I would add the date and hour,
> but that could be regarded as a matter of style.

I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If I want to 
find the original email which might have more context, that is very helpful.

Aside: You (Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z) obviously know how (in the gmail browser 
client) to display the previous text which will be quoted, but for people that 
may not know:

When you click reply in that gmail browser client, you don't see the previous 
text, but, near the bottom of the textbox (on the right side), there are three 
dots (bigger than a period) in an ellipse.  If you click on those, the 
previous text is displayed, and you can delete text or intermix your comments 
as desired.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Brian]

On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 07:59:27 -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:

> Brian () wrote:
> > Please would you not remove the attribution when you quote a mail?
> 
> Sure.  Like this?  Or should I leave the date and hour too?

Thanks; much better. Personally, I would add the date and hour,
but that could be regarded as a matter of style.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Brian () wrote:
> Please would you not remove the attribution when you quote a mail?

Sure.  Like this?  Or should I leave the date and hour too?

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Brian]

On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 07:11:52 -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:

> > Hint: you are already doing that, Gmail just hides the quotes for you.
> 
> I do not always let the whole quote there,
> as in this message, for example.  I did it
> at the start of the thread only to give some context.
> 
> Thanks for the hint, though.  Gmail does hide
> the quotes, no matter how long they are.

Please would you not remove the attribution when you quote a mail?

-- 
Brian.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Hint: you are already doing that, Gmail just hides the quotes for you.

I do not always let the whole quote there,
as in this message, for example.  I did it
at the start of the thread only to give some context.

Thanks for the hint, though.  Gmail does hide
the quotes, no matter how long they are.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 10 mar 21, 21:34:27, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> 
> Also, I saw that "reply to all" quotes the whole thread.
> I would not like to bloat the messages with such big quotes.

Hint: you are already doing that, Gmail just hides the quotes for you.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[David]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 at 12:34, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
 wrote:

> I have a question, why should I use "reply to all" instead of "reply",
> aside that "reply to all" puts the mailing list on copy.

That's my method of persuading Gmail to reply to the list, but it also
requires that I remember to delete all the other recipients and
move the list address into the "To:" field.

> Since I should not send the emails directly to someone,
> I still have to delete the "To:" entry, then I just add the mailing list.

That sounds like an alternative method to get the same outcome :)

> Also, I saw that "reply to all" quotes the whole thread.
> I would not like to bloat the messages with such big quotes.

Agreed. The polite etiquette on this and many other mailing lists
is that you are expected to edit the big quote down by deleting all but
the minimum required to give context for a reader who might
not have read any prior messages. As I have done in this message
for example.

Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> While it looks like doing that works ok in Gmail, don't do that
> because it is a lazy user-interface-design decision by Gmail that
> is unpopular here because it actually causes problems for everyone else.
>
> Gmail "conversations" are a thing that exists only in Gmail. They
> are a broken simplification of threads that only compare the Subject
> text and apparently ignore the actual threading of the message.
>
> On Debian mailing lists, always use the Gmail compose window to
> begin a new *thread*, and use Gmail "reply-to-all" to existing messages,
> and also *remove* all individual recipients except the list unless they
> have earlier written that they are not subscribed to the list, because
that is
> Debian mailing-list policy.
>
> If you merely change the subject line in Gmail when replying, that does
> *not* create a new thread, because even though it appears that way in
Gmail it
> does not appear that way to users of other email software. Sometimes,
> doing that is a good idea when you want to indicate that the thread topic
has
> diverged without actually starting a new thread, but you should understand
> that it does not create a new thread for most other people seeing your
message.
> In this message for example, the prior Subject has nothing to do with what
> I am writing now, so it is appropriate for me to edit the subject,
> and I have done that.
>
> To see how messages are actually threaded on this list (which Gmail
> does not bother to show you) you can look here:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/threads.html
> You should be able to find this message there, and see how it is actually
> still part of the prior thread. Even though it has a different subject and
> to you in Gmail it looks like a different "conversation", to everyone else
> it does not look like that.

Ok, thank you, I saw on the archive that this message is on the same thread,
although Gmail displays it different

I have a question, why should I use "reply to all" instead of "reply",
aside that "reply to all" puts the mailing list on copy.
Since I should not send the emails directly to someone,
I still have to delete the "To:" entry, then I just add the mailing list.

Also, I saw that "reply to all" quotes the whole thread.
I would not like to bloat the messages with such big quotes.

Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists [was Re: Plasma can be a lightweight]

[David]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 at 10:04, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
 wrote:

> > Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z composed on 2021-03-10 14:59 (UTC-0400):

> > > I'm new to mailing lists.  I didn't now you could link threads (it is
> > > threads, right?).

> > I really have no idea what this question is about.

> I mean, change the subject of the message for a specific conversation.
> But the email program recognizes the different subjects as different
> conversations.

While it looks like doing that works ok in Gmail, don't do that
because it is a lazy user-interface-design decision by Gmail that
is unpopular here because it actually causes problems for everyone else.

Gmail "conversations" are a thing that exists only in Gmail. They
are a broken simplification of threads that only compare the Subject
text and apparently ignore the actual threading of the message.

On Debian mailing lists, always use the Gmail compose window to
begin a new *thread*, and use Gmail "reply-to-all" to existing messages,
and also *remove* all individual recipients except the list unless they
have earlier written that they are not subscribed to the list, because that is
Debian mailing-list policy.

If you merely change the subject line in Gmail when replying, that does
*not* create a new thread, because even though it appears that way in Gmail it
does not appear that way to users of other email software. Sometimes,
doing that is a good idea when you want to indicate that the thread topic has
diverged without actually starting a new thread, but you should understand
that it does not create a new thread for most other people seeing your message.
In this message for example, the prior Subject has nothing to do with what
I am writing now, so it is appropriate for me to edit the subject,
and I have done that.

To see how messages are actually threaded on this list (which Gmail
does not bother to show you) you can look here:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/threads.html
You should be able to find this message there, and see how it is actually
still part of the prior thread. Even though it has a different subject and
to you in Gmail it looks like a different "conversation", to everyone else
it does not look like that.

Four new mailing lists of possible interest

[Rich Kulawiec]

Use the email addresses/URLs to subscribe, if you wish.

mint-users  Discussion of the Mint Linux distribution
mint-users-requ...@firemountain.net
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/mint-users
(independent, not affiliated with the Mint Linux project)

dumpsterfireDiscussion of security and privacy issues in the IoT
dumpsterfire-requ...@firemountain.net
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire

nosql   Discussion of nosql and related technologies
nosql-requ...@firemountain.net
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/nosql
(Quasi-replacement for the nosql-discussion mailing
list hosted by Google, which has apparently been
abandonded by its owner and is now overrun with abuse.)

openvas-users   Discussion of the OpenVAS intrusion detection system
openvas-users-requ...@firemountain.net
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/openvas-users
(independent, not affiliated with the OpenVAS project)

---rsk

GIMP mailing lists - was: Re: [Gimp-user] Next gotcha

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 23 July 2016 10:01:37 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Saturday 23 July 2016 02:36:46 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Very frustrating that
> > apparently no one on this list is enough smarter about this that they
> > can assist me.
>
> Is there  a GIMP list, and have you tried it??

To answer my own question:

https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Joel Rees]

One comment to the thread subject, rather than to any particular post.

We would do well to remember that trying to participate in a mailing
list or a newsgroup with an MUA is an inherent contradiction in
purpose.

Put another way, ordinary e-mail and postings to newsgroups and
mailing lists are two rather different kinds of things, even though
they share certain common features and have certain features that
appear the same but are not.

Joel Rees
--
http://defining-computers.blogspot.jp/p/what-on-earth-are-internet-service.html

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:37:40PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

[...]

> > I owe you a $BEVERAGE of your choice (whithin reasonable bounds ;-) -- so
> > if you run into me in one of the usual conferences, go ahead!
> 
> Thank you!  I accept.  Fortunately for you, and sadly for me, I'm not allowed 
> by my doctors to drink Chateau d'Yquem, so I shall have to toast you in fizzy 
> mineral water.

Wouh. Bad doctors, bad. In my case it's the bankers. No Yquem for us :-(

> > Believe me or not -- it was never my intention to troll. 
> 
> I do believe you!  Though how on earth you managed to sit through what we 
> were 
> saying, and especially what I was saying off list, without checking your 
> headers or settings, does somewhat bemuse me. :-/  
> 
> The trouble is, I know what I mean to type, so that is what I see.  
> Presumably 
> you knew what your settings were supposed to be, so that is what you saw.

Something like that, yes. Perhaps the root of most stubbornness.

> > Hanlon's razor [...]

> The older I get, the truer I see that that is.
> 
> I apologise for misspelling your name.  That is something I try to be 
> meticulous about, but I had never till now noticed the accent.  Though I had 
> noticed that you do not use an initial capital.

No worries. I moved a couple of times across Europe and my spelling changed
accordingly. I don't consider it a part of my personality :-)

regards
- -- tomás
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g/AAniqGQIyMarS2lC6gd3/goV4CJrZh
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Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 19 October 2015 16:35:03 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 08:39:13AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Monday 19 October 2015 07:57:30 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > Yes, I'm aware of all that. And I never said the CoC is wrong or should
> > > be changed. I'm just advocating for dealing with those who fail this
> > > CoC (especially this little technical item) more gracefully. That's
> > > all.
> >
> > Hallelujah!  Thank you, tomas.  That went to the list only, with nary a
> > sign of a copy to Brian.
>
> Well, that's embarrasing. Turns out I had a mistake in my setup.
>
> I owe you a $BEVERAGE of your choice (whithin reasonable bounds ;-) -- so
> if you run into me in one of the usual conferences, go ahead!

Thank you!  I accept.  Fortunately for you, and sadly for me, I'm not allowed 
by my doctors to drink Chateau d'Yquem, so I shall have to toast you in fizzy 
mineral water.

> Believe me or not -- it was never my intention to troll. 

I do believe you!  Though how on earth you managed to sit through what we were 
saying, and especially what I was saying off list, without checking your 
headers or settings, does somewhat bemuse me. :-/  

The trouble is, I know what I mean to type, so that is what I see.  Presumably 
you knew what your settings were supposed to be, so that is what you saw.

> Hanlon's razor[1] 
> applies.
>
> [1] "Never attribute to malice what can appropriately be explained by
>  stupidity"

The older I get, the truer I see that that is.

I apologise for misspelling your name.  That is something I try to be 
meticulous about, but I had never till now noticed the accent.  Though I had 
noticed that you do not use an initial capital.

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 08:39:13AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Monday 19 October 2015 07:57:30 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Yes, I'm aware of all that. And I never said the CoC is wrong or should
> > be changed. I'm just advocating for dealing with those who fail this
> > CoC (especially this little technical item) more gracefully. That's all.
> 
> Hallelujah!  Thank you, tomas.  That went to the list only, with nary a sign 
> of a copy to Brian.

Well, that's embarrasing. Turns out I had a mistake in my setup.

I owe you a $BEVERAGE of your choice (whithin reasonable bounds ;-) -- so
if you run into me in one of the usual conferences, go ahead!

Believe me or not -- it was never my intention to troll. Hanlon's razor[1]
applies.

[1] "Never attribute to malice what can appropriately be explained by
 stupidity"

Regards
- -- tomás
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Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 19 October 2015 09:44:56 Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 08:57:30AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Yes, I'm aware of all that. And I never said the CoC is wrong or should
> > be changed. I'm just advocating for dealing with those who fail this
> > CoC (especially this little technical item) more gracefully. That's all.
>
> As in a another post of mine where I mentioned that because the list is
> open then it makes sense to CC a poster if they appear to be newbie and
> you're not sure if they're subscribed.
>
> Also I've seen some posts where the OP has asked to be CC'd and
> subsequent replies have been to the list only.
>
> It may seem like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm suggesting that
> discretion is required. I have seen some threads where the OP has
> requested help installing Debian and there's been about 10 replies with
> requests for more information and the OP hasn't replied to any of them,
> doesn't it make sense to CC the OP in that case, just to at least ensure
> that no one is 'talking to a brick wall'?

At the risk of also seeming to contradict myself, I (almost) agree.  I was 
recently cc'ing someone who was having trouble with emails from the list (as 
were several other people).  

But that is quite different from replying personally to everyone who posts to 
the list, with a cc only to the list because ...   Because what?  the whole 
point of a mailing list is that it sends copies to everybody.

But the one point where I disagree is the sending a personal copy to anyone 
who appears to be a newbie.  I would want some sort of evidence that it was 
required.  Replying to the list from a personal copy is actually not easy in 
some email clients.  A newbie especially needs access to all the resources of 
the list.

Not replying to requests for information is a common occurrence, that has as 
much to do with personality as with the destination of emails.

And yes, people do sometimes forget to cc someone who has requested it.  Kind 
people then sometimes forward the replies.

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 08:57:30AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> Yes, I'm aware of all that. And I never said the CoC is wrong or should
> be changed. I'm just advocating for dealing with those who fail this
> CoC (especially this little technical item) more gracefully. That's all.

As in a another post of mine where I mentioned that because the list is
open then it makes sense to CC a poster if they appear to be newbie and
you're not sure if they're subscribed.

Also I've seen some posts where the OP has asked to be CC'd and
subsequent replies have been to the list only.

It may seem like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm suggesting that
discretion is required. I have seen some threads where the OP has
requested help installing Debian and there's been about 10 replies with
requests for more information and the OP hasn't replied to any of them,
doesn't it make sense to CC the OP in that case, just to at least ensure
that no one is 'talking to a brick wall'?

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 19 October 2015 07:57:30 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> Yes, I'm aware of all that. And I never said the CoC is wrong or should
> be changed. I'm just advocating for dealing with those who fail this
> CoC (especially this little technical item) more gracefully. That's all.

Hallelujah!  Thank you, tomas.  That went to the list only, with nary a sign 
of a copy to Brian.

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 10:41:38PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 18 Oct 2015 at 21:17:46 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > You have to refine your filters a bit, but it's definitely possible.
> 
> I know it is, but not with a simple three or four line procmail recipe
> alone.

[...]

> > That's right. But you can catch most of it.
> 
> Even if "most" is possible it is not good enough.
> 
> A thread of more recent vintage is at
> 
>   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/03/msg00012.html
> 
> There is a technique (and an implementation of it) described which
> ensures list mails get to a list folder and CCs are deleted. See what
> you think.

Yes, I'm aware of all that. And I never said the CoC is wrong or should
be changed. I'm just advocating for dealing with those who fail this
CoC (especially this little technical item) more gracefully. That's all.

regards
- -- tomás
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Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 19 October 2015 08:28:16 Joe wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:47:02 +1300
>
> Chris Bannister  wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 09:21:49PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > tomas said:
> > > > Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky
> > > > about *not* being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do
> > > > his/her part and express this wish with the headers in use for
> > > > this purpose. At least *before* scolding others <:*)
> > >
> > > Don't take me wrong. I think its reasonable. But I think also we
> > > should try to be gentle about it (and try to "fix" as much as
> > > possible on our sides).
> >
> > So you're saying that someone who is following the code should go out
> > of their way to accomodate the ones who won't follow the code?
>
> A little way, not too far.
>
> It's not really a matter of getting one more unsolicited email in
> this day and age, the point of this kind of list is to stand as an
> archive, so that the various answers to the questions, and just as
> importantly, the wanderings down the byways, remain to help others in
> the future.

Quite.  And that will only work if people reply to list and do not break the 
threads.

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 19 October 2015 07:47:53 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 04:47:02PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 09:21:49PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > tomas said:
> > > > Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky
> > > > about *not* being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do
> > > > his/her part and express this wish with the headers in use for this
> > > > purpose. At least *before* scolding others <:*)
>
> [...]
>
> > So you're saying that someone who is following the code should go out
> > of their way to accomodate the ones who won't follow the code?
>
> *sigh*
>
> I give up. Do whatever you want.

Of course Chris will do what he wants, and not what you want.  Why should he 
do anything else?  

But you are *still* not following the code.  You have addressed that to Chris 
with a cc to the list.  You seem to think that you should dictate how the 
list behaves and that the CoC is an aberration that OUGHT to be ignored. 

As I said to you, "you are sending them (these double copies)
deliberately, and being a nuisance deliberately.  Another word  for that is 
trolling."

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Joe]

On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:47:02 +1300
Chris Bannister  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 09:21:49PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > tomas said:
> > > Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky
> > > about *not* being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do
> > > his/her part and express this wish with the headers in use for
> > > this purpose. At least *before* scolding others <:*)  
> > 
> > Don't take me wrong. I think its reasonable. But I think also we
> > should try to be gentle about it (and try to "fix" as much as
> > possible on our sides).  
> 
> So you're saying that someone who is following the code should go out
> of their way to accomodate the ones who won't follow the code?
> 

A little way, not too far.

It's not really a matter of getting one more unsolicited email in
this day and age, the point of this kind of list is to stand as an
archive, so that the various answers to the questions, and just as
importantly, the wanderings down the byways, remain to help others in
the future.

-- 
Joe

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 18 October 2015 20:21:49 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 08:10:56PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Sunday 18 October 2015 19:55:58 Brian wrote:
> > > On Sun 18 Oct 2015 at 17:44:55 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:55:10PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > tomas said:
> > Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky about
> > *not* being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do his/her part and
> > express this wish with the headers in use for this purpose. At least
> > *before* scolding others <:*)
> >
> > Well, I am picky about not being cc'ed.  I have tried to be polite.  I
> > have asked tomas, who thinks I should do something in my headers, how to
> > do it. He tells me I can't.  So now I feel free to "scold others".
>
> Well, be fair :-) I said you can in most of the cases.

No you didn't.  You said that I should be polite and "express this wish with 
the headers in use for this purpose", but you have no idea how this can be 
done.  See above.

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

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On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 04:47:02PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 09:21:49PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > tomas said:
> > > Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky about 
> > > *not*
> > > being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do his/her part and 
> > > express
> > > this wish with the headers in use for this purpose. At least *before* 
> > > scolding
> > > others <:*)

[...]

> So you're saying that someone who is following the code should go out
> of their way to accomodate the ones who won't follow the code?

*sigh*

I give up. Do whatever you want.
- -- t
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Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 09:21:49PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > tomas said:
> > Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky about 
> > *not*
> > being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do his/her part and express
> > this wish with the headers in use for this purpose. At least *before* 
> > scolding
> > others <:*)
> 
> Don't take me wrong. I think its reasonable. But I think also we should try
> to be gentle about it (and try to "fix" as much as possible on our sides).

So you're saying that someone who is following the code should go out
of their way to accomodate the ones who won't follow the code?

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Brian]

On Sun 18 Oct 2015 at 21:17:46 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 07:55:58PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Sun 18 Oct 2015 at 17:44:55 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:55:10PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I'd also like the copy to the list to land in my list folder, not be 
> > > > discarded.
> > > 
> > > The ultimate feature is just a duplicate filter (a couple of lines of
> > > procmail). You'll have to configure the "mail sorter" (you're probably
> > > using KMail) accoringly, because probably the "copy for you" will
> > > arrive earlier.
> > 
> > Isn't this the essence of the problem? The couple of lines of procmail
> > will put the first mail ("copy for you") in the inbox. The actual list
> > mail will probably be disposed of.
> 
> You have to refine your filters a bit, but it's definitely possible.

I know it is, but not with a simple three or four line procmail recipe
alone.

> > > See this thread in... debian-user[1], of all things (from 2003) where
> > > our ancestors hashed this out already (with some recipes). Just ask if
> > > you decide to use procmail (I am, alas, a KMail analphabet myself).
> > > 
> > > [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/10/msg05065.html
> > 
> > There is nothing there which I can see ensures the list mail ends up in
> > the list folder,
> 
> That's right. But you can catch most of it.

Even if "most" is possible it is not good enough.

A thread of more recent vintage is at

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/03/msg00012.html

There is a technique (and an implementation of it) described which
ensures list mails get to a list folder and CCs are deleted. See what
you think.

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 08:10:56PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Sunday 18 October 2015 19:55:58 Brian wrote:
> > On Sun 18 Oct 2015 at 17:44:55 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:55:10PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

[...]

> tomas said:
> Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky about *not*
> being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do his/her part and express
> this wish with the headers in use for this purpose. At least *before* scolding
> others <:*)
> 
> Well, I am picky about not being cc'ed.  I have tried to be polite.  I have 
> asked tomas, who thinks I should do something in my headers, how to do it.   
> He tells me I can't.  So now I feel free to "scold others". 

Well, be fair :-) I said you can in most of the cases.

> The CoC says not to send cc's unless specifically requested.  It is not a lot 
> to ask that people should follow the CoC.  And I shall start following the 
> CoC and complaining, off list, every time, to everyone who cc's me.  Perhaps 
> then they will stop this pain of a practice.
> 
> It is perfectly reasonable that people should be asked to do one of three 
> things:
> 1) subscribe 
> or
> 2) read the archives 
> or
> 3) request a copy.

Don't take me wrong. I think its reasonable. But I think also we should try
to be gentle about it (and try to "fix" as much as possible on our sides).

That's all.

Regards
- -- tomás
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Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

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On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 07:55:58PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 18 Oct 2015 at 17:44:55 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:55:10PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > 
> > > I'd also like the copy to the list to land in my list folder, not be 
> > > discarded.
> > 
> > The ultimate feature is just a duplicate filter (a couple of lines of
> > procmail). You'll have to configure the "mail sorter" (you're probably
> > using KMail) accoringly, because probably the "copy for you" will
> > arrive earlier.
> 
> Isn't this the essence of the problem? The couple of lines of procmail
> will put the first mail ("copy for you") in the inbox. The actual list
> mail will probably be disposed of.

You have to refine your filters a bit, but it's definitely possible.

> > See this thread in... debian-user[1], of all things (from 2003) where
> > our ancestors hashed this out already (with some recipes). Just ask if
> > you decide to use procmail (I am, alas, a KMail analphabet myself).
> > 
> > [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/10/msg05065.html
> 
> There is nothing there which I can see ensures the list mail ends up in
> the list folder,

That's right. But you can catch most of it.

Regards
- -- tomás
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Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 18 October 2015 19:55:58 Brian wrote:
> On Sun 18 Oct 2015 at 17:44:55 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:55:10PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > I'd also like the copy to the list to land in my list folder, not be
> > > discarded.
> >
> > The ultimate feature is just a duplicate filter (a couple of lines of
> > procmail). You'll have to configure the "mail sorter" (you're probably
> > using KMail) accoringly, because probably the "copy for you" will
> > arrive earlier.
>
> Isn't this the essence of the problem? The couple of lines of procmail
> will put the first mail ("copy for you") in the inbox. The actual list
> mail will probably be disposed of.

Yes, it is.

> > See this thread in... debian-user[1], of all things (from 2003) where
> > our ancestors hashed this out already (with some recipes). Just ask if
> > you decide to use procmail (I am, alas, a KMail analphabet myself).
> >
> > [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/10/msg05065.html
>
> There is nothing there which I can see ensures the list mail ends up in
> the list folder,

tomas said:
Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky about *not*
being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do his/her part and express
this wish with the headers in use for this purpose. At least *before* scolding
others <:*)

Well, I am picky about not being cc'ed.  I have tried to be polite.  I have 
asked tomas, who thinks I should do something in my headers, how to do it.   
He tells me I can't.  So now I feel free to "scold others". 

The CoC says not to send cc's unless specifically requested.  It is not a lot 
to ask that people should follow the CoC.  And I shall start following the 
CoC and complaining, off list, every time, to everyone who cc's me.  Perhaps 
then they will stop this pain of a practice.

It is perfectly reasonable that people should be asked to do one of three 
things:
1) subscribe 
or
2) read the archives 
or
3) request a copy.

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Brian]

On Sun 18 Oct 2015 at 17:44:55 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:55:10PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> 
> > I'd also like the copy to the list to land in my list folder, not be 
> > discarded.
> 
> The ultimate feature is just a duplicate filter (a couple of lines of
> procmail). You'll have to configure the "mail sorter" (you're probably
> using KMail) accoringly, because probably the "copy for you" will
> arrive earlier.

Isn't this the essence of the problem? The couple of lines of procmail
will put the first mail ("copy for you") in the inbox. The actual list
mail will probably be disposed of.
 
> See this thread in... debian-user[1], of all things (from 2003) where
> our ancestors hashed this out already (with some recipes). Just ask if
> you decide to use procmail (I am, alas, a KMail analphabet myself).
> 
> [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/10/msg05065.html

There is nothing there which I can see ensures the list mail ends up in
the list folder,

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:55:10PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Sunday 18 October 2015 16:04:47 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >  With a sensible mail reader, the responder just
> > has to choose "respond to list" and all is well.
> 
> Yes.  That is not the problem.  The problem is responders who *deliberately* 
> don't respond to list.

You can't stop those. (OK, the best you can do is "social engineering", aka
persuasion :)

> You claim to know how to set one's email client to stop people responding 
> personally.   My email in response to your last doesn't seem to have got 
> through to the list; perhaps because of the screenshot.  So here it is 
> without.

[...]

> > Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky about
> > *not* being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do his/her part and
> > express this wish with the headers in use for this purpose. At least
> > *before* scolding others <:*)
> 
> Taking that as personally aimed, nothing would give me greater pleasure.  I 
> am 
> simply not technically competent enough.  I refer above to  "my inability to 
> configure KMail correctly".
> 
> I have a blank page in which to  " define custom mime header fields", and an 
> opportunity to use a custom message-id suffix. (See attachment.)
> 
> What do I put, where, to achieve stopping these wretched cc's from landing in 
> my private mail??

What you can do is, if you care, to set

  Mail-Followup-To: debian-user@lists.debian.org

This should convince most polite MUAs to do the right thing when the user
"replies to list". A more drastic measure would be to set

  Reply-To: debian-user@lists.debian.org

That won't kill all cc's: if someone does a "group reply" and/or if the
MUA is nasty enough...

> I'd also like the copy to the list to land in my list folder, not be 
> discarded.

The ultimate feature is just a duplicate filter (a couple of lines of
procmail). You'll have to configure the "mail sorter" (you're probably
using KMail) accoringly, because probably the "copy for you" will
arrive earlier.

See this thread in... debian-user[1], of all things (from 2003) where
our ancestors hashed this out already (with some recipes). Just ask if
you decide to use procmail (I am, alas, a KMail analphabet myself).

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/10/msg05065.html

Regards
- -- tomás







> 
> Lisi
> 
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Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 18 October 2015 16:04:47 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>  With a sensible mail reader, the responder just
> has to choose "respond to list" and all is well.

Yes.  That is not the problem.  The problem is responders who *deliberately* 
don't respond to list.

You claim to know how to set one's email client to stop people responding 
personally.   My email in response to your last doesn't seem to have got 
through to the list; perhaps because of the screenshot.  So here it is 
without.

On Sunday 18 October 2015 07:35:14 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 10:58:00PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Saturday 17 October 2015 19:38:02 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > Or do as me and configure your procmail to discard duplicates. Works
> > > like a charm.
> >
> > No doubt due to my inability to configure KMail correctly it is a *
> > nuisance.  It delivers the private one and discards the one to the list.
> > This is a confounded nuisance.  And contrary to Debian Mailing List CoC .
> >  We are supposed to cc only if expressly requested to do so.
>
> Procmail does a wonderful job of that.
>
> Yes, you are right about the CoC part. Still, if someone is picky about
> *not* being cc'ed, I'd consider it polite to at least do his/her part and
> express this wish with the headers in use for this purpose. At least
> *before* scolding others <:*)

Taking that as personally aimed, nothing would give me greater pleasure.  I am 
simply not technically competent enough.  I refer above to  "my inability to 
configure KMail correctly".

I have a blank page in which to  " define custom mime header fields", and an 
opportunity to use a custom message-id suffix. (See attachment.)

What do I put, where, to achieve stopping these wretched cc's from landing in 
my private mail??

I'd also like the copy to the list to land in my list folder, not be 
discarded.

Lisi

Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 01:07:45PM +0300, Reco wrote:

[Mail-Followup-T]

> True. The only problem is - this very e-mail I'm replying to does not
> contain Mail-Followup-To nor Followup-To :) Without a doubt it must be
> related to your mutt or postfix configuration somehow.

This is not a problem: *I* don't mind receiving CC. This header is a hint
by the sender (in the context of a mailing list) to where (s)he expects
the answers to go to. With a sensible mail reader, the responder just
has to choose "respond to list" and all is well.

So *you* may cc me or not, as stated in my headers (no ...followup-to).

Regards
- -- tomás
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iEYEARECAAYFAlYjtQ8ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kb6ogCfUkv7hBOa0ZHSGnYRR2wy+5qH
y/4An3V7MB+NEoJUmNiSxHiifjv3dZXN
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Re: Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 08:27:21 +0200
 wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 11:54:27PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> We are seriously off-topic by now. I'd propose to take this off-list.
> It has been hashed out to death numerous times and the result has
> always been well, duh, opinions differ.
> 
> > You mean *this* Mail-Followup-To?
> > 
> > http://paul.jakma.org/2009/07/08/mail-followup-to-considered-harmful/
> > 
> > Thanks, but no. Reply-To should be sufficient.
> 
> Just because some bloke on the Internet shares your taste it doesn't
> mean he shares mine.

True. The only problem is - this very e-mail I'm replying to does not
contain Mail-Followup-To nor Followup-To :) Without a doubt it must be
related to your mutt or postfix configuration somehow.

Recp

Mailing lists, CC, followup-to, netiquette and all the rest [was: direct ethernet connection between computer and printer]

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 11:54:27PM +0300, Reco wrote:

[...]

We are seriously off-topic by now. I'd propose to take this off-list.
It has been hashed out to death numerous times and the result has
always been well, duh, opinions differ.

> You mean *this* Mail-Followup-To?
> 
> http://paul.jakma.org/2009/07/08/mail-followup-to-considered-harmful/
> 
> Thanks, but no. Reply-To should be sufficient.

Just because some bloke on the Internet shares your taste it doesn't
mean he shares mine.

Regards
- -- tomás
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6skAniU4E0mD2S6GR/6hNtbY+IofLcy5
=+PQ6
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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Sb, 11 oct 14, 15:07:31, softwatt wrote:
> On 10/11/2014 01:20 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > If you want to go forward with this I would suggest you just do it. If 
> > some Debian Developer finds your idea interesting you could even get a 
> > domain like imap.debian.net.
> 
> Yes, I think that's the way to go. People are far more likely to adopt a
> ready-to-deploy solution than a theoretical proposal. But I'm
> interesting in hearing more opinions first.
> 
> > You could set up several servers/accounts
> 
> That is not needed. Different lists can simply be different folders of
> the same account. IMAP supports ignoring / subscribing to specific folders.

Yes, I know. The separation I suggested (lists.d.o, lists.alioth.d.o and 
bugs.d.o) could be necessary because of scalability issues, not only in 
the server, but also in the clients:

- lists.debian.org has 270 lists
- bugs.debian.org is quickly approaching 80 bugs
- alioth.debian.org hosts 1042 different projects (which may ar may not 
  have one or more lists (there are 124 lists starting with debian- and 
  another 660 lists starting with pkg-).

Besides that you also have to consider some kind of message expiration 
and/or archiving, because even mutt takes a while to access my 'All 
Mail' folder on Gmail (35000+ messages).

Hmm, your proposal could be a great way of reading the archives, 
especially when combined with something like notmuch for searching :)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/11/2014 01:20 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> If you want to go forward with this I would suggest you just do it. If 
> some Debian Developer finds your idea interesting you could even get a 
> domain like imap.debian.net.

Yes, I think that's the way to go. People are far more likely to adopt a
ready-to-deploy solution than a theoretical proposal. But I'm
interesting in hearing more opinions first.

> You could set up several servers/accounts

That is not needed. Different lists can simply be different folders of
the same account. IMAP supports ignoring / subscribing to specific folders.

>IMAP servers are built to handle many clients accessing different
mailboxes, not sure how they will handle many clients accessing the
*same* mailbox

That's a very good point.



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Jo, 09 oct 14, 23:16:33, softwatt wrote:
> 
> Instead of a mailing list, let there be an IMAP/POP account, let us call
> it i...@debian.org. However, it isn't a normal IMAP account:
> 
>  - It is public, and not a traditional private imap account.
>  - It accepts all logins, regardless of the password typed.
>  - It is read-only, users cannot directly modify it.
>  - Users can only use it to read, they cannot send
>mails as i...@debian.org
>  - It serves as the "forum".
>  - The topics and sub-topics are simply folders and sub-folders.
>  - In order to read the "forum", one simply adds the imap
>account to one's mail client.
>  - In order to post something new, one simply replies to the
>relevant post (The FROM is one's own mail, and not
>i...@debian.org)

If you want to go forward with this I would suggest you just do it. If 
some Debian Developer finds your idea interesting you could even get a 
domain like imap.debian.net. You could set up several servers/accounts:

lists@imap.d.n
@alioth.imap.d.n
@bugs.imap.d.n

(for people that want to follow individual bugs only, since there are
also the debian-bugs-* lists)

I think you *might* encounter issues with scalability: i.e. IMAP servers 
are built to handle many clients accessing different mailboxes, not sure 
how they will handle many clients accessing the *same* mailbox (but then 
the developers might be interested in fixing the issues ;).

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt


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Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2014 10 Oct 14:56 -0500, softwatt wrote:
> On 10/10/2014 10:26 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > * On 2014 10 Oct 14:19 -0500, softwatt wrote:
> >> > My "thanks" was not threaded correctly. Sorry.
> > It was threaded correctly by Mutt for me.  Check the threading in the
> > list archive.  Might be an issue with your MUA.
> 
> Mutt seems smarter than the norm. It wasn't threaded correctly in the
> archives. Thanks for the info.

I went to the list archive via slrn and your message wasn't properly
threaded there either, so it is Mutt that is handling the threading.
Sorry about the noise.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us


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Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 10:26 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2014 10 Oct 14:19 -0500, softwatt wrote:
>> > My "thanks" was not threaded correctly. Sorry.
> It was threaded correctly by Mutt for me.  Check the threading in the
> list archive.  Might be an issue with your MUA.

Mutt seems smarter than the norm. It wasn't threaded correctly in the
archives. Thanks for the info.



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Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2014 10 Oct 14:19 -0500, softwatt wrote:
> My "thanks" was not threaded correctly. Sorry.

It was threaded correctly by Mutt for me.  Check the threading in the
list archive.  Might be an issue with your MUA.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us


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Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[softwatt]

My "thanks" was not threaded correctly. Sorry.



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Re: debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 10:10 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>> Miles Fidelman wrote:
 Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
 I also read this
 mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)
>>>
>>> This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I
>>> don't
>>> know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and
>>> read
>>> stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.
>>>
>>> Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla
>>> does
>>> this (news.mozilla.org)
>>>
>>> According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
>>> There are 4 ways to read the list:
>>>
>>>   - Email when subscribed to the list.
>>>   - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
>>>   - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
>>>   - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*
>>>
>>> I guess my question is how to do the third one.
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
>> available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been
>> pretty
>> solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want. No binary
>> newsgroups, but I can life with that.
>>
>> You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of
>> the
>> mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.
>>
>
>
> Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be
> bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.
>
> As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in
> turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.
>
> Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user
>
> If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.
>
>
 Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through
 gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via
 email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email
 to confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it
 doesn't matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to
 satisfy a lot of what the OP was asking for.

 Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is
 bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and
 all of what I find is pretty ancient.

 I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.

>>>
>>> Sent an email off to the debian listmaster asking about the gateway.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile - there seems to be an ancient, possibly unmaintained
>>> list-mail gateway -  robo...@news.nic.it - which moderates the linux.*
>>> newsgroup heirarchy.  In order to post through it, you need to register
>>> by subscribing to the email list linux-g...@lists.bofh.it -- at
>>> http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate
>>>
>>> It seems to be running - but... when I tried to post a message via the
>>> groups.google.com usenet reader - I got an error message from the robot
>>> saying that I need to subscribe -- even though I had just subscribed. So
>>> it's running, but the posting interface does not work, at least as far
>>> as google groups is concerned.
>>>
>>> Jerry: might be an interesting experiment to see if you can post via
>>> eternal-september.com - after subscribing to linux-gate.
>>>
>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>
>>
>> I bit the bullet and set up an nntp account with eternal-september.org
>> - let's see if this gets through with mfidel...@meetinghouse.net as my
>> email address (which is registered with the linux-gate robot).
>>
> 
> So... looks like it does.  So... two ways to access debian-user via USENET:
> 
> 1. via Gmane
> - point newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user
> - first time you try to post to, you'll get a message asking you to
> register w/ Gmane - reply to the message
> - after that, posts/replies will go through Gmane, via email, to
> debian-user
> 
> 2. via eternal-september.org (and presumably any other nntp server that
> supports subscribe to linux.debian.user)
> - register for an account at eternal-september.org
> - go to http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate, subscribe to
> linux-g...@lists.bofh.it - to authorize posting
> - point newsreader at
> news://news.eternal-september.org:119/linux.debian.user   (or whatever;
> note, probably also supports nttps, but haven't tried)
> - you should be good to go
> 
> Note - in both cases, you might have to play games with your "From:"
> address --- e.g., for my combined mail/news/rss reader (SeaMonkey):
> - subscribing to a newsgroup, creates a new account on the new server
> (if it doesn't already exist)
> - have to go i

debian-user via USENET [was: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum]

[Miles Fidelman]

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I
don't
know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and 
read

stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla 
does

this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been 
pretty

solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want. No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of 
the

mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.

As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.

Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.



Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through
gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via
email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email
to confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it
doesn't matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to
satisfy a lot of what the OP was asking for.

Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is
bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and
all of what I find is pretty ancient.

I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.



Sent an email off to the debian listmaster asking about the gateway.

Meanwhile - there seems to be an ancient, possibly unmaintained
list-mail gateway -  robo...@news.nic.it - which moderates the linux.*
newsgroup heirarchy.  In order to post through it, you need to register
by subscribing to the email list linux-g...@lists.bofh.it -- at
http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate

It seems to be running - but... when I tried to post a message via the
groups.google.com usenet reader - I got an error message from the robot
saying that I need to subscribe -- even though I had just subscribed. So
it's running, but the posting interface does not work, at least as far
as google groups is concerned.

Jerry: might be an interesting experiment to see if you can post via
eternal-september.com - after subscribing to linux-gate.

Miles Fidelman



I bit the bullet and set up an nntp account with eternal-september.org 
- let's see if this gets through with mfidel...@meetinghouse.net as my 
email address (which is registered with the linux-gate robot).




So... looks like it does.  So... two ways to access debian-user via USENET:

1. via Gmane
- point newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user
- first time you try to post to, you'll get a message asking you to 
register w/ Gmane - reply to the message

- after that, posts/replies will go through Gmane, via email, to debian-user

2. via eternal-september.org (and presumably any other nntp server that 
supports subscribe to linux.debian.user)

- register for an account at eternal-september.org
- go to http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate, subscribe to 
linux-g...@lists.bofh.it - to authorize posting
- point newsreader at 
news://news.eternal-september.org:119/linux.debian.user   (or whatever; 
note, probably also supports nttps, but haven't tried)

- you should be good to go

Note - in both cases, you might have to play games with your "From:" 
address --- e.g., for my combined mail/news/rss reader (SeaMonkey):
- subscribing to a newsgroup, creates a new account on the new server 
(if it doesn't already exist)
- have to go into the account preferences and enter my email address 
(the one I added to linux-gate)
- when posting/replying, I have to be sure to select that account as my 
From address (Seamonkey provides a pull-down From: list)


Cheers all,

Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum (attn. Jerry)

[Miles Fidelman]

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I
don't
know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.

As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.

Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.



Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through
gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via
email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email
to confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it
doesn't matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to
satisfy a lot of what the OP was asking for.

Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is
bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and
all of what I find is pretty ancient.

I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.



Sent an email off to the debian listmaster asking about the gateway.

Meanwhile - there seems to be an ancient, possibly unmaintained
list-mail gateway -  robo...@news.nic.it - which moderates the linux.*
newsgroup heirarchy.  In order to post through it, you need to register
by subscribing to the email listlinux-g...@lists.bofh.it -- at
http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate

It seems to be running - but... when I tried to post a message via the
groups.google.com usenet reader - I got an error message from the robot
saying that I need to subscribe -- even though I had just subscribed. So
it's running, but the posting interface does not work, at least as far
as google groups is concerned.

Jerry: might be an interesting experiment to see if you can post via
eternal-september.com - after subscribing to linux-gate.

Miles Fidelman



I bit the bullet and set up an nntp account with eternal-september.org - 
let's see if this gets through with mfidel...@meetinghouse.net as my 
email address (which is registered with the linux-gate robot).


Miles


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum (attn. Jerry)

[Miles Fidelman]

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I 
don't

know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be 
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.


As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in 
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.


Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.


Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through 
gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via 
email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email 
to confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it 
doesn't matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to 
satisfy a lot of what the OP was asking for.


Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is 
bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and 
all of what I find is pretty ancient.


I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.



Sent an email off to the debian listmaster asking about the gateway.

Meanwhile - there seems to be an ancient, possibly unmaintained 
list-mail gateway -  robo...@news.nic.it - which moderates the linux.* 
newsgroup heirarchy.  In order to post through it, you need to register 
by subscribing to the email listlinux-g...@lists.bofh.it -- at 
http://lists.bofh.it/listinfo/linux-gate


It seems to be running - but... when I tried to post a message via the 
groups.google.com usenet reader - I got an error message from the robot 
saying that I need to subscribe -- even though I had just subscribed.  
So it's running, but the posting interface does not work, at least as 
far as google groups is concerned.


Jerry: might be an interesting experiment to see if you can post via 
eternal-september.com - after subscribing to linux-gate.


Miles Fidelman

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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Miles Fidelman wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I 
don't

know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be 
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.


As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in 
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.


Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.


Looks like this DID get to the list - so you can read and post through 
gmane's USENET i/f.  But... it looks like gmane actually posts via 
email, not nntp - and the first time you do so, it sends you an email to 
confirm your email address.  As far as users are concerned, it doesn't 
matter - it all just works -- and, I think, it seems to satisfy a lot of 
what the OP was asking for.


Meanwhile, it's not at all clear whether the list-nntp gateway is 
bi-directional or not - there's not a lot to be found via google, and 
all of what I find is pretty ancient.


I'll ask around a bit and report back what I find.

Miles Fidelman



--
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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/10/2014 10:01 AM, softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 02:27 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

I also read this
mail list via NNTP (easier to keep track of threads)


This is perfect for me. But information on the net is scarce and I don't
know where to begin. I know that I can access linux.debian.* and read
stuff, but that would require a -often paid- Usenet account.

Is there an open readonly server specifically for Debian? Mozilla does
this (news.mozilla.org)

According to: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists
There are 4 ways to read the list:

  - Email when subscribed to the list.
  - A Web browser viewing the archives, which are public.
  - Usenet with Network News (Transfer|Transport) Protocol, NNTP.
  - The mail-to-news gateways linux.debian.*

I guess my question is how to do the third one.
Thanks in advance.





You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
newsgroups, but I can life with that.

You can't post to Debian from there (because it's just a mirror of the
mailing list), but you can post to real newsgroups.




Note that a lot of list-to-usenet gateway software can be 
bi-directional, depending on administrative settings.


As someone pointed out, debian-user is gatewayed to gmane - which, in 
turn, EXPOSES AN NNTP FEED.


Point your newsreader at nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.user

If this gets to the list, then one can post through it as well.

Miles Fidelman



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 11:30 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> Personally, I think the 'stack exchange' model is the best one out there at 
> the
> moment.

I have two problems with that model.

 - I don't like reward systems, I prefer minimalistic discussion
   platforms without the fancy stuff
 - Threaded discussions are impossible.

Note that the "Reddit model" is a mixture of the stackExchange Model +
threaded discussions.





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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 08:04 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> - as noted - stuff comes to you

That's true in Usenet as well.

The remaining points are valid for Usenet. Note however that none of
them are valid for my proposal.





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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Francesco Ariis wrote:

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 06:11:16PM +0300, softwatt wrote:

Do mailing lists have any advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?

I never managed one, but maybe mailing lists are easier to set up and
easier to maintain/moderate.
We should listen to what listmasters have to say in this regard.




Mailing lists have LOTS of advantages:
- as noted - stuff comes to you
- most folks understand mailing lists - USENET is not as common or 
familiar as it once was
- USENET has fewer access controls (absent moderation, anybody can post, 
and there's really nothing tying an email address to someone's message)

- USENET servers are a bit more arcane to administer than list software

On the other hand, USENET is great when it comes to message threading, 
searching, and so forth.


Miles Fidelman

--
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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

softwatt wrote:

On 10/10/2014 06:59 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

I'm on at least 25 mailing lists. If I had to go out to 25 different
places to get my information, I'd never get anything done. With mailing
lists, posts come to me: I don't need to go searching hither and yon
for them.

Why are you guys treating "Usenet" and "Web forums" as if they're one?
In Usenet, you can subscribe to whatever you wish and they all come to you.



Ummm we're NOT.  We're pointing out a debian-user to USENET gateway 
does exactly what the OP is asking for.


Miles Fidelman

--
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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Francesco Ariis]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 06:11:16PM +0300, softwatt wrote:
> Do mailing lists have any advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?

I never managed one, but maybe mailing lists are easier to set up and
easier to maintain/moderate.
We should listen to what listmasters have to say in this regard.


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 06:59 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> I'm on at least 25 mailing lists. If I had to go out to 25 different
> places to get my information, I'd never get anything done. With mailing
> lists, posts come to me: I don't need to go searching hither and yon
> for them.

Why are you guys treating "Usenet" and "Web forums" as if they're one?
In Usenet, you can subscribe to whatever you wish and they all come to you.





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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Miles Fidelman]

Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:11:16 +0300
softwatt  wrote:


There's a sub-question here: How does this proposal compare to Usenet?

For me, Usenet forums quickly become the stuff I forgot I ever had. Out
of sight, out of mind. I don't think I'm alone, either, because a lot
of forums have nothing for weeks at a time.


However, both Usenet and this proposal are superior to mailing lists
in all aspects. Feel free to correct me here. Do mailing lists have
any advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?

I'll simply reply about mailing lists vs Usenet, without regard to
your proposal, which I might not completely understand...

I'm on at least 25 mailing lists. If I had to go out to 25 different
places to get my information, I'd never get anything done. With mailing
lists, posts come to me: I don't need to go searching hither and yon
for them.

To me, that's why mailing lists are hugely superior to forums. That's
also why most free software projects have mailing lists, not forums.


I'll echo that.  I also support a couple of dozen email lists on our 
servers - the question of forums comes up at least once a year on each 
one -- and dies for exactly the reason Steve mentions.


Though... it's worth pointing out that many email clients also allow for 
treating both newsgroups and RSS feeds as if they were mail folders - 
with all the visual indication that new messages have arrived.  Then 
again, I have inboxes for 4 different accounts, auto-filter most of my 
list traffic into a single "lists" folder, and about a dozen RSS feeds.  
I always open the inboxes and list folder (then sort by subject); I 
generally ignore the RSS feeds - even though they all "come to me."




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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:11:16 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> There's a sub-question here: How does this proposal compare to Usenet?

For me, Usenet forums quickly become the stuff I forgot I ever had. Out
of sight, out of mind. I don't think I'm alone, either, because a lot
of forums have nothing for weeks at a time.

> However, both Usenet and this proposal are superior to mailing lists
> in all aspects. Feel free to correct me here. Do mailing lists have
> any advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?

I'll simply reply about mailing lists vs Usenet, without regard to
your proposal, which I might not completely understand...

I'm on at least 25 mailing lists. If I had to go out to 25 different
places to get my information, I'd never get anything done. With mailing
lists, posts come to me: I don't need to go searching hither and yon
for them.

To me, that's why mailing lists are hugely superior to forums. That's
also why most free software projects have mailing lists, not forums.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 05:39 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> You don't need to use a paid server.  There are plenty of free ones
> available.  Personally, I use eternal-september.com.  It's been pretty
> solid for me and contains all of the newsgroups I want.  No binary
> newsgroups, but I can life with that.

Thanks! Who needs binary newsgroups?

A Debian nntp server would have been nice though.



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 06:24 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> 
> Gatewaying debian-user to an nntp newsgroup hosted at debian.org might
> be a nice-to-have.

Mozilla does this with their mailing lists. They have a readonly,
"lonely" Usenet server at news.mozilla.org.



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

There's a sub-question here: How does this proposal compare to Usenet?

However, both Usenet and this proposal are superior to mailing lists in
all aspects. Feel free to correct me here. Do mailing lists have any
advantages in comparison to Usenet/this proposal?



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:01:15 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> On 10/10/2014 05:58 PM, softwatt wrote:
> > On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> > You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:
> > You missed my point entirely.
> > Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.
> > 
> 
> I apologize. You only added some advantages to mailing lists. For some
> resume I assumed you're talking about disadvantages in my proposal.

You assumed right, because I assumed your proposal wouldn't let me read
from my email client and reply from my email client. But since your
proposal lets me read from my email client and write from my email
client, with no special effort on my part, it's transparent to me.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:58:04 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:
> 
> You missed my point entirely.
> Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.
> 

OK then...

As long as it continues acting like a mailing list and doesn't do
anything dumb, it's fine with me --- I won't see the difference.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 05:58 PM, softwatt wrote:
> On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>> > You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:
> You missed my point entirely.
> Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.
> 

I apologize. You only added some advantages to mailing lists. For some
resume I assumed you're talking about disadvantages in my proposal.



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[John Hasler]

Steve Litt writes:
> I'm on several forums. But invariably, as time goes on, I forget their
> existence. The day's just too busy to walk around the web visiting
> groups.

And every forum has a different UI with an extremely primitive editor.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[softwatt]

On 10/10/2014 05:41 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:

You missed my point entirely.
Those two advantages are reserved in my proposal.



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Re: Proposal: An alternative to mailing lists which isn't a forum

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 09 Oct 2014 23:16:33 +0300
softwatt  wrote:

> I have been contemplating the merits of mailing lists and comparing
> them with those of forums, 

[snip]

> If you're really impatient and prefer examples, head to the "usage
> example" at the bottom of the mail and skip the rest.
> 
> Advantages of mailing lists:
>  - Integrated with your mailing client
>  - Filters
>  - Work offline
>  - Builtin PGP support
>  - several others I haven't mentioned, but most of them stem from #1

You missed the biggest 2 advantages of mailing lists:

1) The messages come to you, you don't need to remember to go out to two
   dozen forums to find your conversations.

2) You don't need to log in to post a reply.

I'm on several forums. But invariably, as time goes on, I forget their
existence. The day's just too busy to walk around the web visiting
groups.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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