sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Looking back on using Linux as a desktop OS for almost 15 years we've seen tons of features added but not much in terms of 'bite'. Hardware support is a lot better but still sucks when it comes to consumer multi-media, gaming performance etc. Someone wrote down a well documented list on all this and more http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/ why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html What bothers me most on this list is the mention of uncountable regressions. Subjectively i came to the same conclusion as observed on various occasion even with commercial products. The word uncountable seems a bit harsh though not unimaginable. If so, this is bad, verry bad as it indicates a possible lack of oversight and follow-up or peer review. Let's just hope there's nothing lurking beneath the surface shall we. ( Linux would not be generated by an AI would it not ? :D ) Fortunately there are some great projects ahead to improve the desktop, let's keep them fingers crossed one more time :-) I'm honestly a bit amazed the desktop is not a priority for developers which often seem to be keen on serious gaming, at last the few I've met seemed to be. Maybe they have a secret Microsoft box in the house for that, or a console of sorts. Or an Apple. Also, how many projects can one need for a specific purpose built on the libraries of a parent project providing 80% of the functionality. How much of these improvements go upstream, if at all ? I suspect the open- and-free-model lacks the incentive to go forth with fusing projects to making delivery of targets more timely. Good developers are rare and should not be spread across so many projects. Good developers resolve bugs rather than building an economy upon them. A bug is a great marketing instrument for creating leverage, but it's also something stuck in the back of one's head in the long run. Please consider the above with a grain of salt, i am not always known for a delicate choice of words. Cheerio, J. -- jabadaba doooh ooh h -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.01.15.14.08...@yahoo.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
> Most importantly this list is not an opinion. Almost every listed > point has links to appropriate articles, threads and discussions > centered on it, proving that I haven't pulled it out of my < expletive > >. And please always check your "facts". > If you get an impression that Linux sucks - you are largely wrong. If > I had to create a list of Windows problems, it would be almost as long > as this one. - http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html Unworldly! A lot of people think like you, not understanding that digital technology can't compare to analog technology. Sure, using a computer humans can do some things that can't be done manually or by analog technology, but most things are from much higher quality, when done with analog technology or manually. Multimedia, toolmaking, ... an endless list. We use computers, because analog technology and handcrafted things are to expensive, the complete philosophy of human kind did go a step in the wrong direction. I'm pro computers, already using Linux for more than 10 years, but started much earlier with computers in the late 80s. It's a misunderstanding to guess that computer technology is that progressed. Computers are cheap crap. If you are aware that they are nothing but cheap crap, you can use them from an relatively objective point of view. Less expectations = less disappointment High expectations = high disappointment IOW your opinion is subjective from an unworldly point of view. Regards, Ralf PS: You sent to the wrong list. I only Cc'ed to Debian user and sent to the off-topic list. I suspect replies should go to this list only. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389803341.1846.21.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:29:01 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I'm using a news-reader and could not find the off-topic mailinglist. Sorry to say so but your reply sounds more like rambling than anything. I'll reply to the part i was able to comprehend. Expectations ? Man, get a good night sleep. Computers are cheap crap because they can be made to be cheap crap. The production proces permits this. >> Most importantly this list is not an opinion. Almost every listed point >> has links to appropriate articles, threads and discussions centered on >> it, proving that I haven't pulled it out of my < expletive >> >. And please always check your "facts". > >> If you get an impression that Linux sucks - you are largely wrong. If I >> had to create a list of Windows problems, it would be almost as long as >> this one. > > - > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/ why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html > > Unworldly! > > A lot of people think like you, not understanding that digital > technology can't compare to analog technology. Sure, using a computer > humans can do some things that can't be done manually or by analog > technology, but most things are from much higher quality, when done with > analog technology or manually. Multimedia, toolmaking, ... an endless > list. > > We use computers, because analog technology and handcrafted things are > to expensive, the complete philosophy of human kind did go a step in the > wrong direction. > > I'm pro computers, already using Linux for more than 10 years, but > started much earlier with computers in the late 80s. > > It's a misunderstanding to guess that computer technology is that > progressed. Computers are cheap crap. If you are aware that they are > nothing but cheap crap, you can use them from an relatively objective > point of view. > > Less expectations = less disappointment > > High expectations = high disappointment > > IOW your opinion is subjective from an unworldly point of view. > > Regards, > Ralf > > PS: You sent to the wrong list. I only Cc'ed to Debian user and sent to > the off-topic list. I suspect replies should go to this list only. -- jabadaba doooh ooh h -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.01.15.16.53...@yahoo.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 04:53:15 PM Jarth Berilcosm wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:29:01 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > I'm using a news-reader and could not find the off-topic mailinglist. > > Sorry to say so but your reply sounds more like rambling than anything. > I'll reply to the part i was able to comprehend. > > Expectations ? Man, get a good night sleep. > > Computers are cheap crap because they can be made to be cheap crap. The > production proces permits this. > > >> Most importantly this list is not an opinion. Almost every listed point > >> has links to appropriate articles, threads and discussions centered on > >> it, proving that I haven't pulled it out of my < expletive > >> > >> >. And please always check your "facts". > >> > >> If you get an impression that Linux sucks - you are largely wrong. If I > >> had to create a list of Windows problems, it would be almost as long as > >> this one. > > > > - > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/ > > why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html > > > Unworldly! > > > > A lot of people think like you, not understanding that digital > > technology can't compare to analog technology. Sure, using a computer > > humans can do some things that can't be done manually or by analog > > technology, but most things are from much higher quality, when done with > > analog technology or manually. Multimedia, toolmaking, ... an endless > > list. > > > > We use computers, because analog technology and handcrafted things are > > to expensive, the complete philosophy of human kind did go a step in the > > wrong direction. > > > > I'm pro computers, already using Linux for more than 10 years, but > > started much earlier with computers in the late 80s. > > > > It's a misunderstanding to guess that computer technology is that > > progressed. Computers are cheap crap. If you are aware that they are > > nothing but cheap crap, you can use them from an relatively objective > > point of view. > > > > Less expectations = less disappointment > > > > High expectations = high disappointment > > > > IOW your opinion is subjective from an unworldly point of view. > > > > Regards, > > Ralf > > > > PS: You sent to the wrong list. I only Cc'ed to Debian user and sent to > > the off-topic list. I suspect replies should go to this list only. These "reasons why Linux is not ready for the desktop" lists are so stupid. Sure they're "objective." But you know how easy it is to take Windows or OS X, grab a list of THEIR flaws, and call them reasons *they* aren't ready for the desktop? This is practically trolling. Nothing to see here people, move along. Conrad -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1526474.kVutC6NRmJ@twilight
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Wed, 2014-01-15 at 16:53 +, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: > I'm using a news-reader and could not find the off-topic mailinglist. That is a good example how the cheap crap called computer nowadays is misused, for laziness, carelessness, abyss of ignorance, to produce other cheap crap. > Most importantly this list is not an opinion. Almost every listed > point has links to appropriate articles, threads and discussions So it's nothing more than an opinion underpinned with some links, instead of objectivity and hard research. It takes seconds to underpin that all US presidents are shapeshifters, that there never was a Holocaust (no not Godwin). I try to point out that you can underpin every unreflected opinion by links. There are only a few exceptions a computer is good for. The computer is the most overvalued tool humans invented. And again, I like computers, but I don't overvalue computers = more satisfaction for me, than for you Jarth. Your disappointment is based on wrong points of departures. Regards, Ralf PS: d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389806547.1846.37.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Ralf Mardorf wrote: It's a misunderstanding to guess that computer technology is that progressed. Computers are cheap crap. If you are aware that they are nothing but cheap crap, you can use them from an relatively objective point of view. Well put :-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52d6c609.5040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Origineel bericht On Wed, 2014-01-15 at 16:53 +, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: I'm using a news-reader and could not find the off-topic mailinglist. That is a good example how the cheap crap called computer nowadays is misused, for laziness, carelessness, abyss of ignorance, to produce other cheap crap. Most importantly this list is not an opinion. Almost every listed point has links to appropriate articles, threads and discussions So it's nothing more than an opinion underpinned with some links, instead of objectivity and hard research. It takes seconds to underpin that all US presidents are shapeshifters, that there never was a Holocaust (no not Godwin). I try to point out that you can underpin every unreflected opinion by links. There are only a few exceptions a computer is good for. The computer is the most overvalued tool humans invented. And again, I like computers, but I don't overvalue computers = more satisfaction for me, than for you Jarth. Your disappointment is based on wrong points of departures. Regards, Ralf PS: d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org excellent, ralf. reg., steef -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52d6e000.4090...@home.nl
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:22:27 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Honestly ? Get a break, go live in a tent or something. > On Wed, 2014-01-15 at 16:53 +, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: >> I'm using a news-reader and could not find the off-topic mailinglist. > > That is a good example how the cheap crap called computer nowadays is > misused, for laziness, carelessness, abyss of ignorance, to produce > other cheap crap. > >> Most importantly this list is not an opinion. Almost every listed point >> has links to appropriate articles, threads and discussions > > So it's nothing more than an opinion underpinned with some links, > instead of objectivity and hard research. It takes seconds to underpin > that all US presidents are shapeshifters, that there never was a > Holocaust (no not Godwin). I try to point out that you can underpin > every unreflected opinion by links. > > There are only a few exceptions a computer is good for. The computer is > the most overvalued tool humans invented. > > And again, I like computers, but I don't overvalue computers = more > satisfaction for me, than for you Jarth. Your disappointment is based on > wrong points of departures. > > Regards, > Ralf > > PS: d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org -- jabadaba doooh ooh h -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.01.15.21.39...@yahoo.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:08:22 -0600, yaro wrote: Yeah, well, all this bitching proves i should look harder for the off- topic list. > On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 04:53:15 PM Jarth Berilcosm wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:29:01 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> >> I'm using a news-reader and could not find the off-topic mailinglist. >> >> Sorry to say so but your reply sounds more like rambling than anything. >> I'll reply to the part i was able to comprehend. >> >> Expectations ? Man, get a good night sleep. >> >> Computers are cheap crap because they can be made to be cheap crap. The >> production proces permits this. >> >> >> Most importantly this list is not an opinion. Almost every listed >> >> point has links to appropriate articles, threads and discussions >> >> centered on it, proving that I haven't pulled it out of my < >> >> expletive >> >> >> >> >. And please always check your "facts". >> >> >> >> If you get an impression that Linux sucks - you are largely wrong. >> >> If I had to create a list of Windows problems, it would be almost as >> >> long as this one. >> > >> > - >> > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/ >> >> why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html >> >> > Unworldly! >> > >> > A lot of people think like you, not understanding that digital >> > technology can't compare to analog technology. Sure, using a computer >> > humans can do some things that can't be done manually or by analog >> > technology, but most things are from much higher quality, when done >> > with analog technology or manually. Multimedia, toolmaking, ... an >> > endless list. >> > >> > We use computers, because analog technology and handcrafted things >> > are to expensive, the complete philosophy of human kind did go a step >> > in the wrong direction. >> > >> > I'm pro computers, already using Linux for more than 10 years, but >> > started much earlier with computers in the late 80s. >> > >> > It's a misunderstanding to guess that computer technology is that >> > progressed. Computers are cheap crap. If you are aware that they are >> > nothing but cheap crap, you can use them from an relatively objective >> > point of view. >> > >> > Less expectations = less disappointment >> > >> > High expectations = high disappointment >> > >> > IOW your opinion is subjective from an unworldly point of view. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Ralf >> > >> > PS: You sent to the wrong list. I only Cc'ed to Debian user and sent >> > to the off-topic list. I suspect replies should go to this list only. > > > These "reasons why Linux is not ready for the desktop" lists are so > stupid. Sure they're "objective." But you know how easy it is to take > Windows or OS X, > grab a list of THEIR flaws, and call them reasons *they* aren't ready > for the desktop? This is practically trolling. Nothing to see here > people, move along. > > Conrad -- jabadaba doooh ooh h -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.01.15.21.42...@yahoo.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 16/01/14 08:39, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:22:27 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > Honestly ? Get a break, go live in a tent or something. Jarth, don't let Ralf upset you, it's not his fault he's human, and that comes with all sorts of illogical baggage. Bash on the other hand doesn't suffer from emotional attachments and can provide an unbiased response to the problems you've outlined - provided you ask it right ;p Make sure you're running bash and have xdotool installed:- $ echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln256%Pln256/snlbx]sb3135071790101768542287578439snlbxq'|dc;xdotool key ctrl+s Kind regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52d716a2.5000...@gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Wednesday 15 January 2014 17:08:22 y...@marupa.net wrote: > This is practically trolling. Practically? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201401152323.37643.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 10:08 PM, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: > Looking back on using Linux as a desktop OS for almost 15 years we've > seen tons of features added but not much in terms of 'bite'. Well deserved for its always crappy state throughout history. Windows was very crappy internally (consider Win9x, WinXP) so Linux earned some undeserved reputation. Some Linux companies may get something decent at some point and then those companies die. > Hardware support is a lot better but still sucks when it comes to > consumer multi-media, gaming performance etc. It must be more modern to ask hardware vendors to send GPL drivers to mainline kernel rather than to allow hardware vendors develop third-party binary drivers. > Someone wrote down a well documented list on all this and more > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/ > why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html I knew that already and it is a good effort. But most Linux advocates, even some developers, are good at denying problems rather than fixing them. > What bothers me most on this list is the mention of uncountable > regressions. Subjectively i came to the same conclusion as observed on > various occasion even with commercial products. The word uncountable > seems a bit harsh though not unimaginable. If so, this is bad, verry bad > as it indicates a possible lack of oversight and follow-up or peer > review. http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/9804.1/0149.html > Fortunately there are some great projects ahead to improve the desktop, > let's keep them fingers crossed one more time :-) > > I'm honestly a bit amazed the desktop is not a priority for developers > which often seem to be keen on serious gaming, at last the few I've met > seemed to be. Maybe they have a secret Microsoft box in the house for > that, or a console of sorts. Or an Apple. "not a priority"? Isn't everyone working hard to break everything on desktop (Mir, Wayland, etc.) one more time? Some people used to advocate X11? But at end of day, X11 sucks badly. > Also, how many projects can one need for a specific purpose built on the > libraries of a parent project providing 80% of the functionality. How > much of these improvements go upstream, if at all ? I suspect the open- > and-free-model lacks the incentive to go forth with fusing projects to > making delivery of targets more timely. I don't understand what you mean. What I see is that Red Hat is being more and more like a dictator. > Good developers are rare and should not be spread across so many > projects. Good developers resolve bugs rather than building an economy > upon them. A bug is a great marketing instrument for creating leverage, > but it's also something stuck in the back of one's head in the long run. Good developers do not bother with broken OS. Consider Miguel de Icaza. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cagvx7uvre_adqhijrxgt4_74k7rjpcfgppec63yjrdlwml9...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, y...@marupa.net wrote: These "reasons why Linux is not ready for the desktop" lists are so stupid. The whole question of whether Linux is 'ready for the desktop' is specious. This statement presumes that everyone has the same desktop requirements which they demonstratably do not. I've been using Linux on the desktop continuously since 1994. It is clear that it was ready for my desktop in 1994. A lot of Linux geeks spent a lot of time worrying about Microsoft's desktop dominance over those years. I would often hear people claim that Linux had to get on to the desktop *now* (1999, 2004, 2007, etc) or it would be locked out *forever*. I concluded some time in the late 90s that sooner or later a disruptive technology would come along and completely rewrite the rules on computer interfaces, making any current desktop dominance irrelevant. Mobile computing is a sufficiently disruptive technology that it has done this. Note that I did not know *what* the disruptive technology would be but I was sure there would be one. In particular I used to make the point that 40 years ago the desktop as we know it didn't exist and I was sure it would not exist in 40 years time. FWIW I expect yet another disruptive technology to come along soon. I very much doubt we'll be using a single finger or thumb to type on small mobile screens to get anything done in 10 years time. Cheers, Rob -- Email: rob...@timetraveller.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC & Freenode) Web: http://www.pracops.com “To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -- Voltaire
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Robert Brockway wrote: > The whole question of whether Linux is 'ready for the desktop' is specious. > This statement presumes that everyone has the same desktop requirements > which they demonstratably do not. > > I've been using Linux on the desktop continuously since 1994. It is clear > that it was ready for my desktop in 1994. I guess Unix junkie can claim xterms with whatever window manager a "desktop". > A lot of Linux geeks spent a lot of time worrying about Microsoft's desktop > dominance over those years. I would often hear people claim that Linux had > to get on to the desktop *now* (1999, 2004, 2007, etc) or it would be locked > out *forever*. > > I concluded some time in the late 90s that sooner or later a disruptive > technology would come along and completely rewrite the rules on computer > interfaces, making any current desktop dominance irrelevant. > > Mobile computing is a sufficiently disruptive technology that it has done > this. Note that I did not know *what* the disruptive technology would be > but I was sure there would be one. In particular I used to make the point > that 40 years ago the desktop as we know it didn't exist and I was sure it > would not exist in 40 years time. > > FWIW I expect yet another disruptive technology to come along soon. I very > much doubt we'll be using a single finger or thumb to type on small mobile > screens to get anything done in 10 years time. The problem is that "disruptive technology" is actively developed by companies like Apple and Microsoft, rather than FOSS "community". The current touch paradigm is pioneered by Microsoft in forms of a research project [1]. Apple somehow picked up this also and released iPhone. Android is merely a follower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PixelSense -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cagvx7uvd9kj9l6+utw+burh+1coph8_wei384ze82nqfad9...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
2014/1/15 Jarth Berilcosm > > Looking back on using Linux as a desktop OS for almost 15 years we've > seen tons of features added but not much in terms of 'bite'. > > Hardware support is a lot better but still sucks when it comes to > consumer multi-media, gaming performance etc. > > Someone wrote down a well documented list on all this and more > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/ > why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html > > Cheerio, > J. Well, here is *just another one* (article) on the left/right tail of the normal distribution. Linux it's not perfect (anyone is surprised?) depending on who you put on X axis. Full stop. I won't comment the whole because I want to save the neurons and synapses but want you to notice that audio *problems* references in the article are - in order of appearance - from 2007, 2009, 2004, 2012 (this last being a stupid thing about audio group)... my 0.02€ /raffaele
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Jo, 16 ian 14, 11:38:01, Robert Brockway wrote: > > FWIW I expect yet another disruptive technology to come along soon. > I very much doubt we'll be using a single finger or thumb to type on > small mobile screens to get anything done in 10 years time. I agree. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Mi, 15 ian 14, 16:53:15, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: > > Computers are cheap crap because they can be made to be cheap crap. The > production proces permits this. Of course it does, as it is possible to make knifes that don't cut (not sharpened, bad quality steel, etc.). IMNSHO the problem is with consumers that buy such crap instead of voting with their money. Kind regards, Andrei P.S. Reply-To: -offtopic -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Andrei POPESCU writes: > On Mi, 15 ian 14, 16:53:15, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: > > > > Computers are cheap crap because they can be made to be cheap crap. The > > production proces permits this. > > Of course it does, as it is possible to make knifes that don't cut (not > sharpened, bad quality steel, etc.). IMNSHO the problem is with > consumers that buy such crap instead of voting with their money. I think that you are partially right: people is under massive bombing by advertisements and other such messages that they 'must' have these 'technological marvels' [1]. Most of these bombed ones lack the know how required to resist to the bombing itself, and their only judgment meter is "how much does it cost?". [1] After all programs within computers animate the brute matter creating immaterial servants, and that is magic. And the problem with magic is that for each real sorcerer you find ten thousand charlatans. -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/21207.39724.95577.597...@mail.eng.it
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thursday 16 January 2014 02:06:23 Ma Xiaojun wrote: > I guess Unix junkie can claim xterms with whatever window manager a > "desktop". You are being hamstrung by your own definition of desktop. It's basic meaning is something (in this case a computer) that sits on top of your desk. It does not necessarily need windows at all. Desktop computers as opposed to computers which fill a room. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201401160937.21525.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 1/16/14, Ma Xiaojun wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 10:08 PM, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: >> Looking back on using Linux as a desktop OS for almost 15 years we've >> seen tons of features added but not much in terms of 'bite'. >> Also, how many projects can one need for a specific purpose built on the >> libraries of a parent project providing 80% of the functionality. How >> much of these improvements go upstream, if at all ? I suspect the open- >> and-free-model lacks the incentive to go forth with fusing projects to >> making delivery of targets more timely. > > I don't understand what you mean. > What I see is that Red Hat is being more and more like a dictator. I'll bite - I DO want to see an end to this type of 'meme'! : Red Hat has been an absolutely outstanding Free/Libre software corporation, steadfastly sticking to fully libre licenses, including for numerous acquisitions the company has made! Time and again, Red Hat has developed software in house, and released it under a totally libre license! Time and again, Red Hat has purchased some external software house, which was under proprietary license, and then just to turn around and release it under a totally libre license! Of course they are judicious with what they purchase (just to turn around and release as libre software). Of course they are judicious with their in-house development human resources. Rightly so! And let's hope Red Hat the company remains judicious, and exemplary, and an outstanding member of the free software community (my definition thank you). For just one example: - I am unable to use systemd, due to some mismatches (bugs) between I, my current usage and knowledge patterns, and how Debian, and other software I use, currently all work together. - But based on all I've read, systemd, for Linux based systems, is quite superior to anything we've seen before, for what it does. We want a top-notch tradition computer desktop? I certainly do, and systemd, AFAICS, will certainly help us get there. And note: systemd was only adopted (by Red Hat/ Fedora) may be two years after Lennart started developing it in his own time. - Based on Red Hat's history alone, I believe that systemd has been chosed for technical superiority reasons. Yes, it will help servers. Yes, it will help desktops. I think that the main problem we libre software community face at the moment is as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread - the talent pool has shifted at least somewhat to more exciting projects (a shiny new Android IM app anyone? we really could use another! :) :) We who are able ought to step up to those plates which are important to us (eg audio drivers, input systems, whatever). But let's not bash one of our community's greatest corporate allies ever - Red Hat! Regards, Zenaan PS, I even tried to use Red Hat once, not long before the community edition was split into Fedora, or perhaps just after, but at that time I was all command-line-only, and the different locations of things and different ways of doing things, just wasn't worth it to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSSyNy=T-5wjhggtK9yvf02=6kkipLrdFVz=sxkbxrz...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:40:40 PM Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 1/16/14, Ma Xiaojun wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 10:08 PM, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: > >> Looking back on using Linux as a desktop OS for almost 15 years we've > >> seen tons of features added but not much in terms of 'bite'. > >> > >> Also, how many projects can one need for a specific purpose built on the > >> libraries of a parent project providing 80% of the functionality. How > >> much of these improvements go upstream, if at all ? I suspect the open- > >> and-free-model lacks the incentive to go forth with fusing projects to > >> making delivery of targets more timely. > > > > I don't understand what you mean. > > What I see is that Red Hat is being more and more like a dictator. > > I'll bite - I DO want to see an end to this type of 'meme'! : > > Red Hat has been an absolutely outstanding Free/Libre software > corporation, steadfastly sticking to fully libre licenses, including > for numerous acquisitions the company has made! > > Time and again, Red Hat has developed software in house, and released > it under a totally libre license! > > Time and again, Red Hat has purchased some external software house, > which was under proprietary license, and then just to turn around and > release it under a totally libre license! > > Of course they are judicious with what they purchase (just to turn > around and release as libre software). > Of course they are judicious with their in-house development human > resources. > > Rightly so! And let's hope Red Hat the company remains judicious, and > exemplary, and an outstanding member of the free software community > (my definition thank you). > > For just one example: > - I am unable to use systemd, due to some mismatches (bugs) between I, > my current usage and knowledge patterns, and how Debian, and other > software I use, currently all work together. > - But based on all I've read, systemd, for Linux based systems, is > quite superior to anything we've seen before, for what it does. We > want a top-notch tradition computer desktop? I certainly do, and > systemd, AFAICS, will certainly help us get there. And note: systemd > was only adopted (by Red Hat/ Fedora) may be two years after Lennart > started developing it in his own time. > - Based on Red Hat's history alone, I believe that systemd has been > chosed for technical superiority reasons. Yes, it will help servers. > Yes, it will help desktops. > > I think that the main problem we libre software community face at the > moment is as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread - the talent > pool has shifted at least somewhat to more exciting projects (a shiny > new Android IM app anyone? we really could use another! :) :) > > We who are able ought to step up to those plates which are important > to us (eg audio drivers, input systems, whatever). > > But let's not bash one of our community's greatest corporate allies > ever - Red Hat! > > Regards, > Zenaan > > PS, I even tried to use Red Hat once, not long before the community > edition was split into Fedora, or perhaps just after, but at that time > I was all command-line-only, and the different locations of things and > different ways of doing things, just wasn't worth it to me. I think this attitude toward Red Hat stems from a subculture developing in the FOSS movement that "corporation == evil." Thing is, you're right: Red Hat has been doing an examplary job, especially in developing technologies for Linux to make a usable personal desktop. I'm an Arch user on the desktop, and I use Debian Stable on my server. Let me tell you I would jump for joy if I could switch to systemd on my server without having to hand-write most the unit files I'd need to get it back in working order. Instead I'd rather see Jessie go to systemd. I know this would alienate Debian Hurd and Debian BSD people, but let's be perfectly frank here: They're fringe projects few actual real-world Debian users care about, and shouldn't slow real-world, actual Debian progress over. I definitely am for at least giving most of Red Hat's ideas they try on Fedora a spin. Systemd works like a charm on systems designed to make use of it (Arch and Gentoo (As a fully-suppored alternative to OpenRC.). No need to mention Fedora.) The worst option to follow these days is actually Ubuntu, which uses Upstart, which does what systemd does, only backwards and in a poorly thought out way, and the fact they want to jump to Mir (A half-baked, half-assed "alternative" to Xorg and Wayland minus compatibility for either.), which is going to effectively kill their usable software library as most upstream projects like KDE, Qt, and GTK+ have said in no uncertain terms they won't support Mir, which will mean Ubuntu will lose compatibility with 95% of the established desktop software base for Linux. Following Fedora on the desktop is a good idea. Following Ubuntu on the desktop is a BAD idea. I disa
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
A lot of Linux geeks spent a lot of time worrying about Microsoft's desktop dominance over those years. I would often hear people claim that Linux had to get on to the desktop *now* (1999, 2004, 2007, etc) or it would be locked out *forever*. I concluded some time in the late 90s that sooner or later a disruptive technology would come along and completely rewrite the rules on computer interfaces, making any current desktop dominance irrelevant. Absolutely spot on. Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / keyboard. Iain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52d81889.2050...@thargoid.co.uk
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
În data de Thu, 16 Jan 2014 19:36:09 +0200, Iain M Conochie a scris: A lot of Linux geeks spent a lot of time worrying about Microsoft's desktop dominance over those years. I would often hear people claim that Linux had to get on to the desktop *now* (1999, 2004, 2007, etc) or it would be locked out *forever*. I concluded some time in the late 90s that sooner or later a disruptive technology would come along and completely rewrite the rules on computer interfaces, making any current desktop dominance irrelevant. Absolutely spot on. Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / keyboard. There would not be 3D interfaces because they are "skeuomorphic" and this is bad design. All interfaces will be flat! :-) --- Acest email este fără viruși sau programe dăunătoare deoarece protecția antivirusului avast! este activă. http://www.avast.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/op.w9sjlewg0b9...@nvidia.fritz.box
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / > keyboard. Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred years and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled machine, but handcrafted by a craftsman. It could be that computers will be used by a keyboard and a mouse even in 300 years, because this is a good way to do it and in addition it could be, that computers are not that much used as today, people perhaps find back to play a real music instrument, to handcraft a lot of things again, to get better quality. They perhaps will read books again instead of "Linux sucks" blogs. When parallel ports replaced serial ports nobody imagined that serial ports once will replace parallel ports, but they did and it also could be that analog technology will replace a lot of digital technology in the future. Sure, in the future we might be able to control computers by thinking, the technology once will be available, but perhaps humans start making social progress and aren't under a spell of computers anymore. The computer in the future might be a tool for tasks a computer is useful, but beyond that people might be completely disinterested in using computers. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389895091.658.16.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 15 January 2014 21:42, Jarth Berilcosm wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:08:22 -0600, yaro wrote: > > Yeah, well, all this bitching proves i should look harder for the off- > topic list. > True. I. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAD2jOMOwBcwOhAjdy9TgQidAi_p=pu1xgkip4b5q3k08p_2...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / > > keyboard. > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred years > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled machine, > but handcrafted by a craftsman. But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. > > It could be that computers will be used by a keyboard and a mouse even > in 300 years, because this is a good way to do it and in addition it > could be, that computers are not that much used as today, people perhaps > find back to play a real music instrument, to handcraft a lot of things > again, to get better quality. They perhaps will read books again instead > of "Linux sucks" blogs. You're, indulging in wishful thinking. That world died circa 1970. It won't return because large corporations won't be able to make as much money as they can now. Sad, huh? > > When parallel ports replaced serial ports nobody imagined that serial > ports once will replace parallel ports, but they did and it also could > be that analog technology will replace a lot of digital technology in > the future. Don't hold your breath. > > Sure, in the future we might be able to control computers by thinking, > the technology once will be available, but perhaps humans start making > social progress and aren't under a spell of computers anymore. The > computer in the future might be a tool for tasks a computer is useful, > but beyond that people might be completely disinterested in using > computers. -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Yet another read: http://www.g4ilo.com/linux.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cagvx7uu0egsy4p__-k8c9pzvrsinlz7wpgjmdqf0_nabafa...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 14:29 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: > Yet another read: http://www.g4ilo.com/linux.html So what? I bought a professional sound card, that should work with Linux, but it doesn't, it does perfectly work on Windows XP. XP isn't a bad OS regarding to some technically things, I anyway won't use it. I want that humans share knowledge! So I use FreeBSD and Linux! For the industry Microsoft and Apple are more interesting, so more hardware will run on that platforms. Nobody cares about quality of technology, nobody does care about humanity, only money is important. Humans stagnate! We made technologically progress all the times, so it isn't progress by definition, it's just that one crap becomes the successor of other crap. We never made any social progress! Watch the news! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389940910.3167.44.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 1/17/14, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 14:29 +0800, Ma Xiaojun wrote: >> Yet another read: http://www.g4ilo.com/linux.html > > So what? > > I bought a professional sound card, that should work with Linux, but it > doesn't, it does perfectly work on Windows XP. > > XP isn't a bad OS regarding to some technically things, I anyway won't > use it. > > I want that humans share knowledge! So I use FreeBSD and Linux! For the Ralph, your principles allow for you to make sacrifices of convenience, in order that you live your principles (at least to some degree). This is a rare thing, and an honourable thing. And I am sure that there are many on this d-u email list who are similar (certainly am I too of this ilk). Yes it is very unfortunate for humans that they are predominantly driven by instant gratification and the $ almighty, and are unwilling to make much sacrifices of anything, for principle, let alone for principle that goes beyond themselves or their own short term interest. > industry Microsoft and Apple are more interesting, so more hardware will > run on that platforms. Nobody cares about quality of technology, nobody > does care about humanity, only money is important. _Every_ generalisation is _always_ wrong :) - but in general I agree with this sentiment. > Humans stagnate! We made technologically progress all the times, so it > isn't progress by definition, it's just that one crap becomes the > successor of other crap. We never made any social progress! Watch the > news! Certainly humans have technology, and gadgets, and technological power (awesome chariots, instant global communication, electrical power at the flick of a switch) which is way beyond the "standing" (spiritual, ethical, whatever words are suitable in this spot...) of many or most humans today. Best regards, Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caosgnsrzpmo0irqrvmw4gpuytvd-yomokrx9zwyns6xsbty...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Vi, 17 ian 14, 14:29:55, Ma Xiaojun wrote: > Yet another read: http://www.g4ilo.com/linux.html , | This software is Windows-only, does not run under wine, and an email to | the manufacturer asking for details of the communication protocol so I | could write my own went unanswered. Not the fault of Linux, of course, | but hey, I'm just a guy who wants to use a computer for things related | to my hobby. Why should it become my problem? ` It seems like the Author doesn't realise it *already is* his problem. Kind regards, Andrei P.S. Reply-To: -offtopic -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Ma Xiaojun writes: > Yet another read: http://www.g4ilo.com/linux.html Awesome! The truth incarnate! WILMAA! The trashcaan! That post is about the experience of a single man, the weight against the whole mankind is about 1.25e-10 to 1. Has that man the right to use XP? According to Free Software "Yes", freedom 0 says that you are free to use the software for whatever purpose, and this includes discarding it. According to Microsoft "Yes, but don't ask us for support anymore, you are on your own, fella!". In the long term the support he gets from XP could become worse than the support supplied by GNU/Linux. It does not seem wise to me. I think that there is more wisdom in choosing the things that let you in charge of your choices and leaving on the shelf what limits you in that, even if is more advanced and flashy. -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/21208.63328.722577.424...@mail.eng.it
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 19:13 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > _Every_ generalisation is _always_ wrong :) Ok, I agree :). My statements are in a context, so I guess most people will understand, even if they should disagree. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389956291.3167.47.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 10:26 +0100, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote: > In the long term the support he gets from XP could become worse than > the support supplied by GNU/Linux. It does not seem wise to me. There are some cracked XP and 98 se versions out there, that are as good as FreeBSD and Linux for many usages, it's also possible to tune a legal XP and 98 se to be good for many usages. The advantage of Windows over Debian is hardware support and that more people get payed for writing software for exotic usages, such as audio and video editing. _But_ IMO it's important to share knowledge. One of the things a computer and networks are good for, is sharing knowledge and sharing news from different points of view. 1. Open source is needed. IOW I won't use Microsoft and Apple. 2. I e.g. want to read the news from Israel and Palestine, of the USA and the Iran. Could be done with MS and Apple, but in some countries we need security ... did I wrote some? ... in all countries we need security when doing this, so FLOSS is the better way to go, since there are likely less backdoors for the bad guys, if any. Etc. pp. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389957198.3167.60.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 12:13 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 10:26 +0100, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote: > > In the long term the support he gets from XP could become worse than > > the support supplied by GNU/Linux. It does not seem wise to me. > > There are some cracked XP and 98 se versions out there, that are as good > as FreeBSD and Linux for many usages, it's also possible to tune a legal > XP and 98 se to be good for many usages. > > The advantage of Windows over Debian is hardware support and that more ^^^ Linux, covert advertising and even for this it's a typo, since my preferred distro is another one. > people get payed for writing software for exotic usages, such as audio > and video editing. > > _But_ IMO it's important to share knowledge. One of the things a > computer and networks are good for, is sharing knowledge and sharing > news from different points of view. [...] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389957550.3167.62.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Ralf Mardorf writes: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 10:26 +0100, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote: > > In the long term the support he gets from XP could become worse than > > the support supplied by GNU/Linux. It does not seem wise to me. > > There are some cracked XP and 98 se versions out there, that are as good Cracked? Patched by the user or supplied by some "unorthodox" supplier? > as FreeBSD and Linux for many usages, it's also possible to tune a legal > XP and 98 se to be good for many usages. > > The advantage of Windows over Debian is hardware support and that more > people get payed for writing software for exotic usages, such as audio > and video editing. Today that's indeed true. When an hardware maker builds a new device he sends a specimen of the device and the driver in Redmond to get the Microsoft blessing and sell more. Tomorrow could be a different tune. If the device is worth the effort, Microsoft will include the support in the system. I should ask to some of my friends who work(ed) there if all the device that receive the "designed for Windows X" get an automatic-embedded-in-the-OS support in Windows X+1. > _But_ IMO it's important to share knowledge. One of the things a > computer and networks are good for, is sharing knowledge and sharing > news from different points of view. > > 1. Open source is needed. IOW I won't use Microsoft and Apple. I could use Apple HW for sure. Maybe even Mac OS X, after all it's a Unix. What I need more than Open Source is Free Software. You know, Apple discontinues PowerPC units and GNU/Linux still supplies up to date (or almost up to date - my attempt to install the latest stable on a Lamp failed since it left the system unusable). > 2. I e.g. want to read the news from Israel and Palestine, of the USA >and the Iran. Could be done with MS and Apple, but in some countries >we need security ... did I wrote some? ... in all countries we need >security when doing this, so FLOSS is the better way to go, since >there are likely less backdoors for the bad guys, if any. I heard about some doubts about TrueCrypt... -- /\ ___Ubuntu: ancient /___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_ African word //--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can \/ coltivatore diretto di software not install già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian" Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/21209.6811.3403.617...@mail.eng.it
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will > > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / > > > keyboard. > > > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred years > > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled machine, > > but handcrafted by a craftsman. > > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good knife in Germany anymore without a "firearms licence" (this joke doesn't work in German, we don't have a "firearms licence", here it's called "weapon license"). IOW to get a good pastry chef's knife you need the same "weapon license" you need for a katana or pump gun. So people are used to use carp to cut a steak and they win the impression, that computer controlled machines can punch out good tools ... they simply don't know how good the quality of tools was just a few decades ago and they believe all the hype that in the digital age everything is better. It simply isn't better, quality of technology nowadays is as worse as it never was before, let alone social quality. When did they build the first katana ;)? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389960475.3167.84.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 12:57 +0100, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote: > I heard about some doubts about TrueCrypt... Encryption doesn't work, when there is already a backdoor before the encryption takes place. For FLOSS operating systems it's hard to place such a backdoor, for closed operating systems from US-American companies there clearly are such backdoors. A TOR browser won't help you, when the NSA already gets your data from your keyboard buffer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389961057.3167.89.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 13:07 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > > > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. > > Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good > knife in Germany anymore My father, a gifted martial artist, once nearly cut one of his fingers, when cutting a cake using a good pie knife. The children travelling knife from the past are better than knifes for adults nowadays. Perhaps "they" only want protect us against our foolishness. OTOH why don't "they" simply teach us, how to distinguish the bad from the good tools and how to use the tools? Not every good tool is as dangerous as a good knife, most tools are harmless, but anyway much better than computer replacements, or replacements build controlled by computers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389962357.3167.98.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
* On 2014 17 Jan 05:15 -0600, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > The advantage of Windows over Debian is hardware support and that more > people get payed for writing software for exotic usages, such as audio > and video editing. In amateur radio circles there is a constant warning against USB to serial dongles using the Prolific chips due to driver issues and FTDI chipsets are preferred. A year ago I intended to use my laptop which came with Windows 7 to log an amateur radio event. The OS completely forgot the FTDI device that was attached and could not find it. I lost nearly an hour of time tracking down a replacement driver and finally getting it installed. The same hardware has been very well supported in Debian for several years at least. I think the meme that Windows automatically has better driver support is, these days, suspect at best and an outright lie at worst. The other issue Julian had was that he jumped into a Linux distribution at about the worst time to be using KDE. I suspect his experience would be better today, but the dearth of amateur radio software compared to the Windows platform still exists, especially pretty looking programs. I also wonder if Julian, as many other hams I've talked to over the years, get the idea from those of us who favor Linux that a Linux distribution is a bug for bug replacement for Windows. We know that is not the case although many of the same things may be accomplished in a Linux based environment as in Windows or OS/X. I still see the glass as half full as there are opportunities to improve the Linux environment. Not everything has been done that can be done. Also, for a general computing environment either a Linux or BSD based system seems to be the remaining choices as Windows and OS/X seem to be moving toward a media centric focus. While our free systems can do that as well, they will never receive the blessing of the big media companies whole still hold their customers at a paranoid arm's length. Perhaps it is the perspective of time or age, but while it is unfortunate that some people find that a Linux system doesn't meet their needs or expectations, it is helpful to remember that neither do the popular proprietary systems meet the needs or expectations of all. What I want to avoid is the monopoly position held by Windows during the late '90s and early part of this century. I just ask for the freedom to choose. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140117130245.gj15...@n0nb.us
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:58:11 +0100 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled > machine, but handcrafted by a craftsman. But this isn't because a machine can't do the work of a good craftsman (in some cases today, and in almost any in the future). It's because it's hard to sell a knife for 250$ when one can buy a reasonably good one for 20$. Of course, there are some people who can value the 250$ knife but there are more who can't, or didn't have the money. And the people who can might not buy it when it was made by a machine. So if your company buys a very expensive robot to produce knifes, what quality will they produce? What machines can do nowadays is quite impressive: http://vimeo.com/3833961 (Kuka robot copies the Gutenberg Bible) Or think about machines in mills, sorting out single grains of poor quality while they are falling down like a waterfall into the millstone granting a better flour quality than you can with dozens of human workers doing the same. The downside of robots, yet, is that it takes a lot of time to make them learn to craft another series of knifes, even if they differs only in details. But there are already companies selling (industrial grade) robots you can program by showing them what they should do: http://www.rethinkrobotics.com/ No to mention the power such robots can have, combined with the accuracy shown in the vimeo video. The Kuka Titan can lift one metric ton placing it somewhere in over 3m range with an accuracy of millimeters: http://www.kuka-robotics.com/germany/en/pressevents/productnews/NN_titan_+the_worlds_strongest_robot.htm It's all a matter of costs, or better return of invest. Kuka robots for example get their paintjobs by humans. We all know robots can handle paintjobs very well, but Kuka has a very broad range of different robots and doesn't produce hundreds of each every day. So it's too expensive, yet, to (re)program the robot, but this is about to change. Bye. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 07:02 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: > I still see the glass as half full :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389977923.3167.109.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 14:38 +0100, Denis Witt wrote: > Or think about machines in mills, sorting out single grains of poor > quality while they are falling down like a waterfall into the > millstone granting a better flour quality than you can with dozens of > human workers doing the same. I mentioned that there are some tasks computers are good for ;), but many things only can be done by humans. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389978053.3167.111.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:07:55PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > > > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will > > > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred years > > > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled machine, > > > but handcrafted by a craftsman. > > > > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. > > Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good > knife in Germany anymore without a "firearms licence" (this joke doesn't > work in German, we don't have a "firearms licence", here it's called > "weapon license"). IOW to get a good pastry chef's knife you need the > same "weapon license" you need for a katana or pump gun. So people are > used to use carp to cut a steak and they win the impression, that > computer controlled machines can punch out good tools ... they simply > don't know how good the quality of tools was just a few decades ago and > they believe all the hype that in the digital age everything is better. > It simply isn't better, quality of technology nowadays is as worse as it > never was before, let alone social quality. When did they build the > first katana ;)? This really belongs on the OT list but I'll reply anyway. Ralph, do you think monks in a Carpathian monastery lovingly hand crafting parts can maintain the same tolerances as CNC machinery can? Or are you against interchangeability? Assuming they could hold these tolerances, how many people/companies could/would pay for them? Face it. You can only take this "good old days" schtik so far. -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 12:13 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:07:55PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > > > > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will > > > > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / > > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred years > > > > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled machine, > > > > but handcrafted by a craftsman. > > > > > > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. > > > > Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good > > knife in Germany anymore without a "firearms licence" (this joke doesn't > > work in German, we don't have a "firearms licence", here it's called > > "weapon license"). IOW to get a good pastry chef's knife you need the > > same "weapon license" you need for a katana or pump gun. So people are > > used to use carp to cut a steak and they win the impression, that > > computer controlled machines can punch out good tools ... they simply > > don't know how good the quality of tools was just a few decades ago and > > they believe all the hype that in the digital age everything is better. > > It simply isn't better, quality of technology nowadays is as worse as it > > never was before, let alone social quality. When did they build the > > first katana ;)? > > This really belongs on the OT list but I'll reply anyway. > > Ralph, do you think monks in a Carpathian monastery lovingly hand > crafting parts can maintain the same tolerances as CNC machinery can? Or > are you against interchangeability? Assuming they could hold these > tolerances, how many people/companies could/would pay for them? > > Face it. You can only take this "good old days" schtik so far. Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our brains. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389991390.5878.25.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 21:43 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 12:13 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:07:55PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > > > > > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will > > > > > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / > > > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred > > > > > years > > > > > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled machine, > > > > > but handcrafted by a craftsman. > > > > > > > > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. > > > > > > Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good > > > knife in Germany anymore without a "firearms licence" (this joke doesn't > > > work in German, we don't have a "firearms licence", here it's called > > > "weapon license"). IOW to get a good pastry chef's knife you need the > > > same "weapon license" you need for a katana or pump gun. So people are > > > used to use carp to cut a steak and they win the impression, that > > > computer controlled machines can punch out good tools ... they simply > > > don't know how good the quality of tools was just a few decades ago and > > > they believe all the hype that in the digital age everything is better. > > > It simply isn't better, quality of technology nowadays is as worse as it > > > never was before, let alone social quality. When did they build the > > > first katana ;)? > > > > This really belongs on the OT list but I'll reply anyway. > > > > Ralph, do you think monks in a Carpathian monastery lovingly hand > > crafting parts can maintain the same tolerances as CNC machinery can? Or > > are you against interchangeability? Assuming they could hold these > > tolerances, how many people/companies could/would pay for them? > > > > Face it. You can only take this "good old days" schtik so far. > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more > precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a > super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our > brains. PS: Do you ask a computer to compute who is the best person to be the perfect boy/girl-friend? Is intuition less or more substantial? If humans would be aware to program a CNC machine perfectly, they perhaps could be better or at least equal to human work, but we are unable to do it. Humans "feel" the right point, a computer doesn't. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389992545.5878.29.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 22:02 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 21:43 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 12:13 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:07:55PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > > > > > > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse > > > > > > > / > > > > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred > > > > > > years > > > > > > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled > > > > > > machine, > > > > > > but handcrafted by a craftsman. > > > > > > > > > > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. > > > > > > > > Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good > > > > knife in Germany anymore without a "firearms licence" (this joke doesn't > > > > work in German, we don't have a "firearms licence", here it's called > > > > "weapon license"). IOW to get a good pastry chef's knife you need the > > > > same "weapon license" you need for a katana or pump gun. So people are > > > > used to use carp to cut a steak and they win the impression, that > > > > computer controlled machines can punch out good tools ... they simply > > > > don't know how good the quality of tools was just a few decades ago and > > > > they believe all the hype that in the digital age everything is better. > > > > It simply isn't better, quality of technology nowadays is as worse as it > > > > never was before, let alone social quality. When did they build the > > > > first katana ;)? > > > > > > This really belongs on the OT list but I'll reply anyway. > > > > > > Ralph, do you think monks in a Carpathian monastery lovingly hand > > > crafting parts can maintain the same tolerances as CNC machinery can? Or > > > are you against interchangeability? Assuming they could hold these > > > tolerances, how many people/companies could/would pay for them? > > > > > > Face it. You can only take this "good old days" schtik so far. > > > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > > mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more > > precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a > > super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our > > brains. > > PS: > > Do you ask a computer to compute who is the best person to be the > perfect boy/girl-friend? Is intuition less or more substantial? > > If humans would be aware to program a CNC machine perfectly, they > perhaps could be better or at least equal to human work, but we are > unable to do it. > > Humans "feel" the right point, a computer doesn't. Sorry, for the PPS, but I worked with CNC machines. CNC machines need to sense the surface as human need to do, but they don't have that perfect senses as humans have got. We aren't talking just about measurements, but about assessment, math interpolation can't compare to human knowledge/feeling. Is there any computer able to produce just a simple pop song that reaches the top ten? A computer is able to produce a jazz, rock, classical style song, but not able to touch human emotions. So are you saying computers are better than humans? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389993032.5878.35.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:43:10 -0800 Ralf Mardorf wrote > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more > precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a > super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our > brains. Our brains (and bodies) are the most shoddily constructed, corroded, inefficient, poorly maintained, infinite-monkeys sort of kajiggered engineering in the known universe. In my opinion, that we experience flaws and mistakes as "better" than exact reproduction and precise technique says more about how we are flawed and improvised than whether there is something intrinsically better about machine or manually wound coils. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1257539946.845.1389993305871.JavaMail.sas1@[172.29.241.245]
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 13:14 -0800, cletusjenkins wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:43:10 -0800 Ralf > Mardorf wrote > > > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > > mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more > > precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a > > super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our > > brains. > > Our brains (and bodies) are the most shoddily constructed, corroded, > inefficient, poorly maintained, infinite-monkeys sort of kajiggered > engineering in the known universe. In my opinion, that we experience flaws > and mistakes as "better" than exact reproduction and precise technique says > more about how we are flawed and improvised than whether there is something > intrinsically better about machine or manually wound coils. Living beings are able to self-repair, to eat and to produce the needed energy for doing some work. You only need to interrupt electrical power given by humans, to kill a machine. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389993709.5878.38.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 22:21 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 13:14 -0800, cletusjenkins wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:43:10 -0800 Ralf > > Mardorf wrote > > > > > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > > > mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more > > > precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a > > > super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our > > > brains. > > > > Our brains (and bodies) are the most shoddily constructed, corroded, > > inefficient, poorly maintained, infinite-monkeys sort of kajiggered > > engineering in the known universe. In my opinion, that we experience flaws > > and mistakes as "better" than exact reproduction and precise technique says > > more about how we are flawed and improvised than whether there is something > > intrinsically better about machine or manually wound coils. > > Living beings are able to self-repair, to eat and to produce the needed > energy for doing some work. You only need to interrupt electrical power > given by humans, to kill a machine. And don't forget we the "most shoddily constructed ... in the known universe" were the once who build the machines! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389993940.5878.40.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 1/17/2014 4:14 PM, cletusjenkins wrote: On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:43:10 -0800 Ralf Mardorf wrote > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more > precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a > super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our > brains. Our brains (and bodies) are the most shoddily constructed, corroded, inefficient, poorly maintained, infinite-monkeys sort of kajiggered engineering in the known universe. In my opinion, that we experience flaws and mistakes as "better" than exact reproduction and precise technique says more about how we are flawed and improvised than whether there is something intrinsically better about machine or manually wound coils. And the only complex machine that can be reproduced by unskilled labor! Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52d9a1ab.3020...@attglobal.net
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > mechanically wounded coil does? I doubt that it would in a double-blind experiment. > The mechanically wound coil is more precise! The mechanically wound coil could easily be made precisely as imprecise as you wish. Repeatably. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87txd2fg10@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:21:49 -0800 Ralf Mardorf wrote > > Living beings are able to self-repair, to eat and to produce the needed > energy for doing some work. You only need to interrupt electrical power > given by humans, to kill a machine. > I'm not arguing one is better than the other, just in all situations neither is the best. You said in another reply that we haven't created a computer that can create as we do, which is good otherwise we would be out-competed and certainly shortly become extinct. But I don't think human-like creativity is restricted humans. Any sufficiently advanced alien lifeform could reproduce such creativity. And I think there is no reason a sufficiently complex digital life-form could not do the same. Our best computers are at the level of complexity of a bug or small reptile. The best argument in favor of analog, human-created things is a blow job. Nothing beats a blow job, and no matter how many plastic tubes and lube have been sold, none can beat a warm, wet analog, human mouth. So until we are finally replaced, up with humanity! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/961042879.863.1389994800889.JavaMail.sas1@[172.29.241.245]
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 16:33 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > And the only complex machine that can be reproduced by unskilled labor! Yesno, we need to be able to interact with other humans, in the real world! ... to reproduce ourself ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389994900.5878.48.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 15:35 -0600, John Hasler wrote: > Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > > mechanically wounded coil does? > > I doubt that it would in a double-blind experiment. But your doubts are wrong, it was done a trillion times :p. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389994975.5878.49.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:33:31 -0800 Jerry Stuckle wrote > > > > > > And the only complex machine that can be reproduced by unskilled labor! > > Jerry And not only that, it is in fact quite fun and enjoyable to make people. While I enjoy tinkering with my computers, it was more better making my children. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1630896868.877.1389995337102.JavaMail.sas1@[172.29.241.245]
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 13:38 -0800, cletusjenkins wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:21:49 -0800 Ralf > Mardorf wrote > > > > > Living beings are able to self-repair, to eat and to produce the needed > > energy for doing some work. You only need to interrupt electrical power > > given by humans, to kill a machine. > > > > I'm not arguing one is better than the other, just in all situations neither > is the best. You said in another reply that we haven't created a computer > that can create as we do, which is good otherwise we would be out-competed > and certainly shortly become extinct. But I don't think human-like creativity > is restricted humans. Any sufficiently advanced alien lifeform could > reproduce such creativity. And I think there is no reason a sufficiently > complex digital life-form could not do the same. Our best computers are at > the level of complexity of a bug or small reptile. > > The best argument in favor of analog, human-created things is a blow job. > Nothing beats a blow job, and no matter how many plastic tubes and lube have > been sold, none can beat a warm, wet analog, human mouth. So until we are > finally replaced, up with humanity! I agree, but they will kill you and now me too, because you mentioned that. Sexuality is a taboo! It's evil, it doesn't exist in the clean computer world! Computers are clean, they do everything better than humans ... and if you watch television you should be aware that they eat our planet to reproduce themself and be more smart than we are! Wow, on what are those folks? Please let me know, I wont to take the same mix of drugs :p. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389995600.5878.56.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 13:47 -0800, cletusjenkins wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:33:31 -0800 Jerry Stuckle wrote > > > > > > > > > > And the only complex machine that can be reproduced by unskilled labor! > > > > Jerry > > And not only that, it is in fact quite fun and enjoyable to make people. > While I enjoy tinkering with my computers, it was more better making my > children. And I prefer to talk to your children and you than to have a talk with my PC ;). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389995924.5878.57.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
well, I have no children, but the making process is indeed far more fun then putting my hands inside a box. And consider all the wonderfully imaginative and beautiful human art that results? Computer cases seem so...bland by comparison with say George Clooney packages.Kare On Fri, 17 Jan 2014, cletusjenkins wrote: On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:33:31 -0800 Jerry Stuckle wrote > > > > > > And the only complex machine that can be reproduced by unskilled labor! > > Jerry And not only that, it is in fact quite fun and enjoyable to make people. While I enjoy tinkering with my computers, it was more better making my children. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1630896868.877.1389995337102.JavaMail.sas1@[172.29.241.245] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsf.4.64.1401171650450.73...@server1.shellworld.net
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 16:53 -0500, Karen Lewellen wrote: > Computer cases seem so...bland by comparison with say George Clooney > packages. Women?! As a heterosexual man now I have to disagree, I prefer the sexy body of my female computer case compared to the odd shape of George Clooney. Karen, you are completely mistaken :D. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389996787.5878.61.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Have you seen the movie her? one person's case is another person's preference! smiles. Kare On Fri, 17 Jan 2014, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 16:53 -0500, Karen Lewellen wrote: Computer cases seem so...bland by comparison with say George Clooney packages. Women?! As a heterosexual man now I have to disagree, I prefer the sexy body of my female computer case compared to the odd shape of George Clooney. Karen, you are completely mistaken :D. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1389996787.5878.61.camel@archlinux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsf.4.64.1401171721470.74...@server1.shellworld.net
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:53:20 -0800 Ralf Mardorf wrote > I agree, but they will kill you and now me too, because you mentioned > that. Sexuality is a taboo! It's evil, it doesn't exist in the clean > computer world! Any computer sufficiently complex to be considered sentient will have its own particular perversions, different due to the differing physical hardware, but still. Even the simplistic insect/bacteria computers we have now are far from clean: (Not safe for work:) http//www.iseekgirls.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/carly_moore_naked.jpg (hoipefully such links do not violate some rule, if so I apologize, but I couldn't help myself) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/152421747.75235.1390002994566.JavaMail.sas1@[172.29.252.227]
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 4:13 AM, Robert Holtzman wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:07:55PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: >> > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: >> > > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will >> > > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / >> > > > keyboard. >> > > >> > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred years >> > > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled machine, >> > > but handcrafted by a craftsman. >> > >> > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. >> >> Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good >> knife in Germany anymore without a "firearms licence" (this joke doesn't >> work in German, we don't have a "firearms licence", here it's called >> "weapon license"). IOW to get a good pastry chef's knife you need the >> same "weapon license" you need for a katana or pump gun. So people are >> used to use carp to cut a steak and they win the impression, that >> computer controlled machines can punch out good tools ... they simply >> don't know how good the quality of tools was just a few decades ago and >> they believe all the hype that in the digital age everything is better. >> It simply isn't better, quality of technology nowadays is as worse as it >> never was before, let alone social quality. When did they build the >> first katana ;)? > > This really belongs on the OT list but I'll reply anyway. > > Ralph, do you think monks in a Carpathian monastery lovingly hand > crafting parts can maintain the same tolerances as CNC machinery can? A good knife is not made by tolerances measurable by a machine cheap enough to make "good-enough" knives at cheap prices. The complex array of sensors and the highly pattern-intensive calculation that goes on when a good craftsman are not cheap, and not compact, in any machine we make. We have the general ideas, now, perhaps for the first time in history, but we are hitting the limits of the technology, and we are running out of resources just as we think we are in reach of the holy-grail of duplicating what $primalCondition has done in creating us. > Or > are you against interchangeability? There is 6-sigma kinds of quality, and there is tuned-to-the-individual kinds of quality, which is only partially related to the manufacture of a good knife. > Assuming they could hold these > tolerances, how many people/companies could/would pay for them? No company I know of has the resources necessary to build the machine theoretically capable of producing a truly good knife and put it into operation mass-producing truly good knives. On the other hand, a good-enough knife that can take an edge from a whetstone can be used as a close approximation to a truly good knife in our day-to-day consumer-level uses. > Face it. You can only take this "good old days" schtik so far. If we use computers in our work, we need to understand the differences. I remember in the "good-old-days" being told every now and then by an office worker in some bureaucratic office or other that my data wouldn't fit in the database records. Sometimes, the humans in the system were willing to provide work-arounds, sometimes they weren't. I remember reading accounts in the newspaper of lives lost because of such bureaucratic intolerances, system intolerances that were blamed on the computers or the designers of the computer parts of the system. And we on this list regularly engage in finding workarounds. And the so-called "commercial" closed-source "solutions" tend to need more of this kind of community support than the open-souce so-called "non"-commercial stuff we are using. Which is why we keep using it, even though there are continually voices telling us that the grass is greener on the closed-source, anti-freedom (non-)solutions side of the fence. > -- > Bob Holtzman > Your mail is being read by tight lipped > NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor > Strangelove > Key ID 8D549279 So it is a bit of navel-gazing, perhaps, but I think it's on-topic navel-gazing, myself. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43iohbo4jh1b4za0-fl8hj7byy+qxgrwfjfrppr7ezya...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:51 AM, cletusjenkins wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:53:20 -0800 Ralf > Mardorf wrote > > > I agree, but they will kill you and now me too, because you mentioned > > that. Sexuality is a taboo! It's evil, it doesn't exist in the clean > > computer world! > > Any computer sufficiently complex to be considered sentient will have its own > particular perversions, different due to the differing physical hardware, but > still. Even the simplistic insect/bacteria computers we have now are far from > clean: > > (Not safe for work:) [obviously inappropriate link elided] > > (hoipefully such links do not violate some rule, if so I apologize, but I > couldn't help myself) There are two problems with such links. One is that "iseekgirls.[domain]" is going to have a high probability of harbouring drive-bys and other kinds of malware that we don't really want to subject our current version of flash+browser to. As food for thought, it seems to me that the other problem, while I assume it's the one you reference in your comment about rules, involves principles of human condition which parallel the computer security problem. If you don't see what I mean, consider, who pays for the server space and internet bandwidth, why, and with what money? -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43in2hntz30lobj+7dofxy5cz_nsdvlosuhxudc-47pb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 09:43:10PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 12:13 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:07:55PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > > > > > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that will > > > > > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a mouse / > > > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several hundred > > > > > years > > > > > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled machine, > > > > > but handcrafted by a craftsman. > > > > > > > > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. > > > > > > Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good > > > knife in Germany anymore without a "firearms licence" (this joke doesn't > > > work in German, we don't have a "firearms licence", here it's called > > > "weapon license"). IOW to get a good pastry chef's knife you need the > > > same "weapon license" you need for a katana or pump gun. So people are > > > used to use carp to cut a steak and they win the impression, that > > > computer controlled machines can punch out good tools ... they simply > > > don't know how good the quality of tools was just a few decades ago and > > > they believe all the hype that in the digital age everything is better. > > > It simply isn't better, quality of technology nowadays is as worse as it > > > never was before, let alone social quality. When did they build the > > > first katana ;)? > > > > This really belongs on the OT list but I'll reply anyway. > > > > Ralph, do you think monks in a Carpathian monastery lovingly hand > > crafting parts can maintain the same tolerances as CNC machinery can? Or > > are you against interchangeability? Assuming they could hold these > > tolerances, how many people/companies could/would pay for them? > > > > Face it. You can only take this "good old days" schtik so far. > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more > precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a > super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our > brains. "Sounds better" is subjective. Can't be measured. Tolerances can be. Besides, what does that have to do with my question? -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:10:32PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 22:02 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 21:43 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 12:13 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:07:55PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 12:05 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 06:58:11PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 17:36 +, Iain M Conochie wrote: > > > > > > > > Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > blow us all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a > > > > > > > > mouse / > > > > > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not necessarily! We eat using classic knifes since several > > > > > > > hundred years > > > > > > > and btw. a good knife isn't produced by a computer controlled > > > > > > > machine, > > > > > > > but handcrafted by a craftsman. > > > > > > > > > > > > But these, sure as hell, aren't sold in grocery stores. > > > > > > > > > > Correct! And I suspect that it isn't allowed to sell and buy a good > > > > > knife in Germany anymore without a "firearms licence" (this joke > > > > > doesn't > > > > > work in German, we don't have a "firearms licence", here it's called > > > > > "weapon license"). IOW to get a good pastry chef's knife you need the > > > > > same "weapon license" you need for a katana or pump gun. So people are > > > > > used to use carp to cut a steak and they win the impression, that > > > > > computer controlled machines can punch out good tools ... they simply > > > > > don't know how good the quality of tools was just a few decades ago > > > > > and > > > > > they believe all the hype that in the digital age everything is > > > > > better. > > > > > It simply isn't better, quality of technology nowadays is as worse as > > > > > it > > > > > never was before, let alone social quality. When did they build the > > > > > first katana ;)? > > > > > > > > This really belongs on the OT list but I'll reply anyway. > > > > > > > > Ralph, do you think monks in a Carpathian monastery lovingly hand > > > > crafting parts can maintain the same tolerances as CNC machinery can? Or > > > > are you against interchangeability? Assuming they could hold these > > > > tolerances, how many people/companies could/would pay for them? > > > > > > > > Face it. You can only take this "good old days" schtik so far. > > > > > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > > > mechanically wounded coil does? The mechanically wound coil is more > > > precise! Don't underestimate human touch. The human brain is a > > > super-computer, no computer build by humans is able to compare with our > > > brains. > > > > PS: > > > > Do you ask a computer to compute who is the best person to be the > > perfect boy/girl-friend? Is intuition less or more substantial? > > > > If humans would be aware to program a CNC machine perfectly, they > > perhaps could be better or at least equal to human work, but we are > > unable to do it. > > > > Humans "feel" the right point, a computer doesn't. > > Sorry, for the PPS, but I worked with CNC machines. > > CNC machines need to sense the surface as human need to do, but they > don't have that perfect senses as humans have got. > > We aren't talking just about measurements, but about assessment, math > interpolation can't compare to human knowledge/feeling. You are if you want interchangeability of parts. > > Is there any computer able to produce just a simple pop song that > reaches the top ten? A computer is able to produce a jazz, rock, > classical style song, but not able to touch human emotions. > > So are you saying computers are better than humans? At some tasks, of course. Pop songs? Relationships? What does that have to do with producing anything tangible? Don't forget, without the creature comforts made possible with high volume production, all your free time would be taken up scratching out an existence from the soil with none left to enjoy the esoteric pleasures you talk about. -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:42:55PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 15:35 -0600, John Hasler wrote: > > Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > > > mechanically wounded coil does? > > > > I doubt that it would in a double-blind experiment. > > But your doubts are wrong, it was done a trillion times :p. Didn't your mother tell you a million times "don't exaggerate". -- Bob Holtzman Your mail is being read by tight lipped NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor Strangelove Key ID 8D549279 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
..besides, the film I referenced "her," is all about a sensing computer who trust me has no problem with sexuality. Kare On Fri, 17 Jan 2014, cletusjenkins wrote: On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 13:53:20 -0800 Ralf Mardorf wrote > I agree, but they will kill you and now me too, because you mentioned > that. Sexuality is a taboo! It's evil, it doesn't exist in the clean > computer world! Any computer sufficiently complex to be considered sentient will have its own particular perversions, different due to the differing physical hardware, but still. Even the simplistic insect/bacteria computers we have now are far from clean: (Not safe for work:) http//www.iseekgirls.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/carly_moore_naked.jpg (hoipefully such links do not violate some rule, if so I apologize, but I couldn't help myself) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/152421747.75235.1390002994566.JavaMail.sas1@[172.29.252.227] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsf.4.64.1401180101470.7...@server1.shellworld.net
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 22:35 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote: > Pop songs? Relationships? What does that have to do with producing > anything tangible? It has got, but I want to end this discussion. I wonder when humans became as cold as ice :(. http://www.parorobots.com/ Pure and clean, better than a real cat or a real dog :(, they also plan to replace human care attendants by robots. No joke, for conversations with old people they already use robots and they claim that this is good, the care attendants could do the physical work and don't need to spend time to talk to the old people :(. But lets end this discussion. Computers are good and lets continue complaining "sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit", just because some humans won't understand the limits of computers. :( Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1390025225.5878.69.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 07:45:04PM +0200, Cristian Baboi wrote: > În data de Thu, 16 Jan 2014 19:36:09 +0200, Iain M Conochie > >Gazing into my crystal ball, there will be a 3D interface that > >will blowus all away, and the kids will laugh at us for using a > >mouse / keyboard. > > > > There would not be 3D interfaces because they are "skeuomorphic" and > this is bad design. > All interfaces will be flat! :-) After having read this post: http://www.themachinestarts.com/read/2012-11-how-we-started-calling-visual-metaphors-skeuomorphs-why-apple-design-debate-mess I am not sure I understand your remark. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140118063238.GA5651@tal
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 07:13:17PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > Certainly humans have technology, and gadgets, and technological power > (awesome chariots, ... Mmmm, so the last chariot I saw wasn't on "Ben Hur"? -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140118065211.GB5651@tal
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 1/18/14, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 07:13:17PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: >> Certainly humans have technology, and gadgets, and technological power >> (awesome chariots, ... > > Mmmm, so the last chariot I saw wasn't on "Ben Hur"? Yes, definitely, and did you notice the fine leather work on those chariots? the Selley's poly glue stuff used to join the spokes of the wheels to the rims? the fine muck-metal buckles for the reins (muck metal is _so_ inexpensive it's awesome!) :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caosgnstpuuebpntfs-gsywh-dlgegu8_at567s5f2qmzbob...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:38:08PM -0800, cletusjenkins wrote: > I'm not arguing one is better than the other, just in all situations > neither is the best. You said in another reply that we haven't created > a computer that can create as we do, What do yo mean we? Just because one person is a good musician doesn't mean we are. Just because one person is a great craftsman doesn't mean all people *can* be. > be out-competed and certainly shortly become extinct. But I don't > think human-like creativity is restricted humans. Any sufficiently > advanced alien lifeform could reproduce such creativity. You're making that up! :) Just a bit of advice, if it's not NSFW why on earth do you think it's OK on this list? Do you say what ever you like to your mother or anyone you meet? -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140118074241.GC5651@tal
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32:07AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: > As food for thought, it seems to me that the other problem, while I > assume it's the one you reference in your comment about rules, > involves principles of human condition which parallel the computer > security problem. If you don't see what I mean, consider, who pays for > the server space and internet bandwidth, why, and with what money? What! Surely it is simpler than that? Would you discuss the same things with your boss as you would with your sexual counsellor. If your boss *is* your sexual counsellor then substitute "sexual counsellor" with partner(s) or mistress, whichever is appropriate. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140118075136.GD5651@tal
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Sat, 2014-01-18 at 18:01 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > On 1/18/14, Chris Bannister wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 07:13:17PM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: > >> Certainly humans have technology, and gadgets, and technological power > >> (awesome chariots, ... > > > > Mmmm, so the last chariot I saw wasn't on "Ben Hur"? > > Yes, definitely, and did you notice the fine leather work on those > chariots? the Selley's poly glue stuff used to join the spokes of the > wheels to the rims? the fine muck-metal buckles for the reins (muck > metal is _so_ inexpensive it's awesome!) > > :) http://antiqwatch.com/all/bronnikovs-unique-wooden-pocket-watches.html Not antique, a Russian still build such watches. But of cause, an atomic clock is more precise ... that reminds me to run ntpdate, because computer clocks are the most precise clocks ;). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1390031602.5878.73.camel@archlinux
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 06:00:53PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 14:38 +0100, Denis Witt wrote: > > Or think about machines in mills, sorting out single grains of poor > > quality while they are falling down like a waterfall into the > > millstone granting a better flour quality than you can with dozens of > > human workers doing the same. > > I mentioned that there are some tasks computers are good for ;), but > many things only can be done by humans. What is quality? Quality means different things to different people. The supermarket would discard the average apple while the so called "organic" store would see it as just another healthy apple! -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140118081236.GE5651@tal
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Vi, 17 ian 14, 22:53:20, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > I agree, but they will kill you and now me too, because you mentioned > that. Sexuality is a taboo! It's evil, it doesn't exist in the clean > computer world! Most probably sexuality is not taboo for some/many/most people reading debian-user, but there is a good chance that it is not appropriate for at least some readers. Discussing this subject, *on debian-user*, where it is also WAY-offtopic is inconsiderate towards those people. Thank you in advance for not replying, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 01/18/2014 03:12 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 06:00:53PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 14:38 +0100, Denis Witt wrote: Or think about machines in mills, sorting out single grains of poor quality while they are falling down like a waterfall into the millstone granting a better flour quality than you can with dozens of human workers doing the same. I mentioned that there are some tasks computers are good for ;), but many things only can be done by humans. What is quality? Quality means different things to different people. The supermarket would discard the average apple while the so called "organic" store would see it as just another healthy apple! In Robert Pirsig's classic, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," an assignment was given a college class to define quality, which caused a great deal of consternation amongst the students. This was one of the best parts of the book and worth the read for patient and inquiring readers. -- hangout: ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net diversion: http://alienjeff.net - visit The Fringe quote: "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52da4dac.2020...@charter.net
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 04:47:24AM -0500, Jeff Bauer wrote: > On 01/18/2014 03:12 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: > >On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 06:00:53PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >>On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 14:38 +0100, Denis Witt wrote: > >>>Or think about machines in mills, sorting out single grains of poor > >>>quality while they are falling down like a waterfall into the > >>>millstone granting a better flour quality than you can with dozens of > >>>human workers doing the same. > >>I mentioned that there are some tasks computers are good for ;), but > >>many things only can be done by humans. > >What is quality? Quality means different things to different people. The > >supermarket would discard the average apple while the so called > >"organic" store would see it as just another healthy apple! > > > In Robert Pirsig's classic, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle > Maintenance," an assignment was given a college class to define > quality, which caused a great deal of consternation amongst the > students. This was one of the best parts of the book and worth the > read for patient and inquiring readers. That is why quality means: "Whatever the persom perceives it to be." IOW, two pasengers on the same airline given exactly the same treatment will percieve the quality of the service in completely different ways. One could think it was lousy, while the other could think it was great! Great book BTW! In that case you may be interested in: Lila: An Inquiry Into Morals, also by Robert M. Pirsig -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140118121334.GE14005@tal
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 23:42:41 -0800 Chris Bannister wrote > >Just a bit of advice, if it's not NSFW why on earth do you think it's >OK on this list? Do you say what ever you like to your mother or anyone >you meet? > Yeah, and that bitch (and the rest of them) don't much appreciate it. As terrible as it was it was as OT as anything in this insane conversation. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1441809428.191037.1390067738770.JavaMail.sas@[172.29.252.227]
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Actually, yes it does. All humans have the capacitor to be. explore some of the many science and general science text on human brain function and you will find some rich support. The capacitor to be, however each creative effort is as unique as your DNA. This is not philosophy, its physics. Kare On Sat, 18 Jan 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 01:38:08PM -0800, cletusjenkins wrote: I'm not arguing one is better than the other, just in all situations neither is the best. You said in another reply that we haven't created a computer that can create as we do, What do yo mean we? Just because one person is a good musician doesn't mean we are. Just because one person is a great craftsman doesn't mean all people *can* be. be out-competed and certainly shortly become extinct. But I don't think human-like creativity is restricted humans. Any sufficiently advanced alien lifeform could reproduce such creativity. You're making that up! :) Just a bit of advice, if it's not NSFW why on earth do you think it's OK on this list? Do you say what ever you like to your mother or anyone you meet? -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140118074241.GC5651@tal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsf.4.64.1401181313491.22...@server1.shellworld.net
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
>> I'm not arguing one is better than the other, just in all situations >> neither is the best. You said in another reply that we haven't created >> a computer that can create as we do, >What do yo mean we? Just because one person is a good musician doesn't >mean we are. Just because one person is a great craftsman >doesn't mean all people *can* be. Yes, I forgot to exclude from the discussion the untermenschen among us. >> be out-competed and certainly shortly become extinct. But I don't >> think human-like creativity is restricted humans. Any sufficiently >> advanced alien lifeform could reproduce such creativity. >You're making that up! :) So you believe there us something special about human brains or the nerve cells they are composed of? Perhaps the untermenschen are composed of something other than what _we_ are, which explains their sloth and poor craftsmanship. All human knowledge has and still is leading to the conclusion there is nothing special about humans or our place in the universe. Exactly what factoid do you know that could possibly prevent computers as complex and powerful as a human brain, or sentient alien species not being as creative as humanity? Not likely to be the 100% the same due to the different substrate, culture and a myriad of differences, but to say such beings cannot be as creative as humans reminds me of europeans in the past claiming other races couldn't be as intelligent or civilized as they were because of some intrinsic flaw. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1006967586.227533.1390071831533.JavaMail.sas@[172.29.254.227]
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Please cease and desist this stupid off topic chatter. I gave up reading this thread days ago . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1390073080.59110.yahoomailba...@web163405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 18/01/14 20:24, Go Linux wrote: > Please cease and desist this stupid off topic chatter. I gave up reading > this thread days ago . > > +1, but ... How then are you able to respond to it? -- Tony van der Hoff | mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org Ariège, France | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52dad601.9020...@vanderhoff.org
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Capacitor? On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 3:16 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote: > Actually, yes it does. All humans have the capacitor to be. explore some > of the many science and general science text on human brain function and > you will find some rich support. > The capacitor to be, however each creative effort is as unique as your DNA. > This is not philosophy, its physics. > Kare > > > [...] I'm assuming that was an intentional pun, given the direction Ralf sent the thread ... (Worth a chuckle or two.) -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caar43ioor05gvo9fgymb8zjdjn8htvcxsktyobgxjld4ga6...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 1/19/14, Tony van der Hoff wrote: > On 18/01/14 20:24, Go Linux wrote: >> Please cease and desist this stupid off topic chatter. I gave up reading >> this thread days ago . >> >> > +1 We owe it to others on our list, to post all our OT type replies "To: d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org" and NOT to CC: or "To:" debian-user. No matter how much we wish to have _everyone_ on d-user hear our reponse, when we are part of an OT thread, it is our duty to post to d-c-o only, at the earliest moment we realise we are posting to an OT thread. And perhaps a little offlist (or onlist) reminder to the person who started, or took, the thread, OffTopic. This is, of course, merely a suggestion and hope on my part. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSSLO=JNcvFUViF0JA+-86DA5fc+ZmMZ0S=Ln=ad69o...@mail.gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 22:42:55 +0100 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 15:35 -0600, John Hasler wrote: > > Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > Why does a manually wound coil for guitars does sound better than a > > > mechanically wounded coil does? > > > > I doubt that it would in a double-blind experiment. > > But your doubts are wrong, it was done a trillion times :p. Links to, say, a couple of hundred ABX tests? Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140118202549.a92cb706d8221bb96a058...@gmail.com
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
Am 17.01.2014 um 22:10 schrieb Ralf Mardorf : > Is there any computer able to produce just a simple pop song that > reaches the top ten? A computer is able to produce a jazz, rock, > classical style song, but not able to touch human emotions. Artificial Intelligence needs Artificial Emotions. It was in the year 1987 taht I first saw a paper about Artifcial Emotions, but nearly no progress since. Helmut Wollmersdorfer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e73a3416-7c3e-4549-a50e-b8c4df0e5...@fixpunkt.de
Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On 01/20/2014 05:20 AM, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: Am 17.01.2014 um 22:10 schrieb Ralf Mardorf : A computer is able to produce a jazz, rock, classical style song, but not able to touch human emotions. Artificial Intelligence needs Artificial Emotions. It was in the year 1987 taht I first saw a paper about Artifcial Emotions, but nearly no progress since. If you want to experience artificial emotions, date a native California girl. -- hangout: ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net diversion: http://alienjeff.net - visit The Fringe quote: "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52dd09f0.4060...@charter.net
corrigendum: Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Thursday 16 January 2014 09:37:21 Lisi Reisz wrote: > It's basic > meaning Ouch! Its basic meaning -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201401161026.47345.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Acceptable on list? was: Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Saturday 18 January 2014 09:45:29 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > Most probably sexuality is not taboo for some/many/most people > reading debian-user, but there is a good chance that it is not > appropriate for at least some readers. Sexuality is not taboo. But it seems to me that detailed descriptions of fellatio ought to be, if they are not. And I certainly found that very offensive. Reference has been made to what it is appropriate to talk about with mothers; and, of course, the young. We may well have some children on this list. This seems to me most decidedly inappropriate. _And_ very OT. ;-) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201401181434.18539.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Acceptable on list? was: Re: sad but true, Linux sucks, a bit
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 02:34:18PM +, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Saturday 18 January 2014 09:45:29 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > Most probably sexuality is not taboo for some/many/most people > > reading debian-user, but there is a good chance that it is not > > appropriate for at least some readers. > > Sexuality is not taboo. But it seems to me that detailed descriptions > of fellatio ought to be, if they are not. And I certainly found that > very offensive. > > Reference has been made to what it is appropriate to talk about with > mothers; and, of course, the young. We may well have some children on > this list. This seems to me most decidedly inappropriate. _And_ > very OT. ;-) I think knowledge of the sexual experience, in all its forms would only be useful for children. Especially for future debianers =) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140119055122.gb2...@yandex.ru