Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Erik Christiansen]

On 28.11.17 21:41, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Erik Christiansen wrote:
> 
> > After trying to get various GUI drawing
> > packages to function at the most basic level,
> > and failing to produce anything, I'm just
> > finishing the 8 drawings for my new house
> > build (floor plan, elevations, sections, and
> > site plan), using raw postscript. That has
> > proven a better fit for a retired programmer.
> > [...]
> 
> Sounds *great* and my thinking/style is exactly
> the same!
> 
> Do you mind sharing the source and Makefile?

It's not necessary to build anything - I've just defined a few
postscript procedures at the start of the postscript document.
Job done.

On 28.11.17 21:45, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Erik Christiansen wrote:
> 
> > Interesting ... I had not heard of it
> > previously. Looking at it on wikipedia, I see
> > "Most operations in Xfig are performed using
> > the mouse," For the first, I've had no luck
> > mouse-wrangling GUI drawing packages - it's
> > all so counter-intuitive, and nothing works
> > for me. For the second, after my 8 drawings
> > I cannot imagine how I'd mouse-wrangle
> > something as simple as a wall cross-section
> > with complete positional and dimensional
> > precision. In postscript, it's just:
> >
> > /wall_height 2700 def % X Y X Y 3600 0 moveto
> > 100 wall_height box % Let's put it at 3600 mm
> > from origin, % at floor level.
> 
> This is, again, exactly what I want. Is there
> a collection somewhere of the postscript syntax
> or how did you pick it up?

The Adobe book "Postscript Language Reference", third edition, is useful
for looking up commands, but the bulk of the text is prolix and obtusely
dense reading.

Better for readability and examples is the BLUEBOOK.PDF, which is the
first hit on a google for "postscript blue book".

Two methods of specifying paper size are required for both printers and
software packages to pick it up. I found a way that works, by googling.

What I've put together is only a beginning - enough to satisfactorily
complete one drafting job of 8 drawings. It's only one way to do it.
(And a couple of things would need generalising, e.g the WC and kitchen
sink are currently just drawn in situ, rather than being in a procedure.

One thing which makes editing 840 lines of postscript more manageable
has nothing to do with the language. Enabling Vim's text folding renders
the entire document as 26 lines of top level headings. That greatly
simplifies navigating. (Though I also use search on the comments.)

If there's a place to put an example and some very basic howto guff -
enough for someone to get started, then I could clean up what I have,
and put together a little bit of intro text. (There'd need to be some
explanation of the way I chain and abut walls of differing rotation to
build rooms and dividers.)

After that, the seed can be grown into anything you care to program.

Erik

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Speaking of pic(1), this URL in the man page is broken

   Brian  W. Kernighan, PIC — A Graphics Language for Typesetting
   (User Manual).   AT&T  Bell  Laboratories,  Computing  Science
   Technical Report No. 116
     (revised  May,
   1991).

And not just any guy's book that is missing...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Erik Christiansen wrote:

> Interesting ... I had not heard of it
> previously. Looking at it on wikipedia, I see
> "Most operations in Xfig are performed using
> the mouse," For the first, I've had no luck
> mouse-wrangling GUI drawing packages - it's
> all so counter-intuitive, and nothing works
> for me. For the second, after my 8 drawings
> I cannot imagine how I'd mouse-wrangle
> something as simple as a wall cross-section
> with complete positional and dimensional
> precision. In postscript, it's just:
>
> /wall_height 2700 def % X Y X Y 3600 0 moveto
> 100 wall_height box % Let's put it at 3600 mm
> from origin, % at floor level.

This is, again, exactly what I want. Is there
a collection somewhere of the postscript syntax
or how did you pick it up?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Erik Christiansen wrote:

> After trying to get various GUI drawing
> packages to function at the most basic level,
> and failing to produce anything, I'm just
> finishing the 8 drawings for my new house
> build (floor plan, elevations, sections, and
> site plan), using raw postscript. That has
> proven a better fit for a retired programmer.
> [...]

Sounds *great* and my thinking/style is exactly
the same!

Do you mind sharing the source and Makefile?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[David Wright]

On Tue 28 Nov 2017 at 23:12:19 (+1100), Erik Christiansen wrote:

> If I used a mouse, all the walls would differ in thickness, and only be
> approximately in the right position. Yeah, there's probably snap-to-grid,
> but that has to be too fine to add anything, if it's to handle arbitrary
> dimensions.

But generally, wall thicknesses are not arbitrary. For example, an
internal wall is going to be constructed on 2x4 framing. With an
architectural CAD program, one click would increase that to 2x6
if, say, you decided you wanted a pocket door. Likewise if you
wanted more insulation or stiffness in a particular exterior wall.

> If you have to create with the mouse, then mouse-select a
> side to give it a precise dimension via a dialogue box, then it seems
> easier to skip the mouse-wrangling, as it doesn't add anything.
> 
> The only disadvantages are that programming a suite of artifacts to place
> would drive 99% of users nuts at the outset, 

But those artifacts correspond with the in-built preferences of the
CAD program. Many of the dimensions you mention aren't as arbitrary
as they might appear once you consider the consequences; door and
window sizes, ceiling heights, etc.

But a solution depends on how much help with designing is needed, and
how much is just drafting.

Cheers,
David.

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Erik Christiansen]

On 28.11.17 07:58, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Tuesday, 28 Nov 2017 at 15:37, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > After trying to get various GUI drawing packages to function at the most
> > basic level, and failing to produce anything, I'm just finishing the 8
> > drawings for my new house build (floor plan, elevations, sections, and
> > site plan), using raw postscript. That has proven a better fit for a
> > retired programmer.
> 
> Wow, definitely old skool!  It's been years since I wrote raw
> postscript.
> 
> On that note, did you look at xfig?  Not a CAD program, as such, but
> quite good for drawings of the sort you are doing maybe.  Also old
> skool...

Interesting ... I had not heard of it previously. Looking at it on
wikipedia, I see "Most operations in Xfig are performed using the
mouse," For the first, I've had no luck mouse-wrangling GUI drawing
packages - it's all so counter-intuitive, and nothing works for me. For
the second, after my 8 drawings I cannot imagine how I'd mouse-wrangle
something as simple as a wall cross-section with complete positional and
dimensional precision. In postscript, it's just:

/wall_height 2700 def
%X  Y X  Y   
   3600 0 moveto 100 wall_height box   % Let's put it at 3600 mm from origin,
   % at floor level.

(OK, I have a "box" function, as that's not native postscript.)

If I used a mouse, all the walls would differ in thickness, and only be
approximately in the right position. Yeah, there's probably snap-to-grid,
but that has to be too fine to add anything, if it's to handle arbitrary
dimensions. If you have to create with the mouse, then mouse-select a
side to give it a precise dimension via a dialogue box, then it seems
easier to skip the mouse-wrangling, as it doesn't add anything.

The only disadvantages are that programming a suite of artifacts to place
would drive 99% of users nuts at the outset, and drawing with text would
finish that job, despite the fact that drawing 14 solar panels on the
roof was just:

  14 { 1650 500 box 70 0 rmoveto } repeat stroke   % PV panels

(They're only 500 high, as viewed, because the roof is at 30°)

Erik

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Brian J. Oney]

Hello there,
if you want to make the investment in learning CAD and want to do drawings 
programmatically, then FreeCAD with the the CadQuery Module for FreeCAD 
(https://github.com/jmwright/cadquery-freecad-module) is an elegant option.
CheersBrian

On Tue, 2017-11-28 at 15:37 +1100, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 23.11.17 21:35, Doug wrote:
> > On 11/23/2017 05:06 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> > > Joe wrote:
> > > 
> > > > What you won't be given is a dialog box with
> > > > X and Y size and coordinates, and invited to
> > > > edit them, it doesn't work that way.
> > > > That's how an object-oriented drawing program
> > > > would work.
> > > 
> > > Well, this is certainly a first that I'm an
> > > OO guy by intuition, because yes, that is how
> > > I would expect it to work. But that is drawing,
> > > not CAD?
> > > 
> > > I wonder if I should get an OO drawing
> > > application instead, and what would that be -
> > > Dia?
> > > 
> > > Or perhaps learn CAD as that's more powerful in
> > > the long run?
> > > 
> > 
> > Learning CAD is a hard road, but a worthwhile one, I think, because it is so
> > versatile.
> > Which one you learn will make some difference, depending on what you wind up
> > wanting to do with it.
> 
> After trying to get various GUI drawing packages to function at the most
> basic level, and failing to produce anything, I'm just finishing the 8
> drawings for my new house build (floor plan, elevations, sections, and
> site plan), using raw postscript. That has proven a better fit for a
> retired programmer.
> 
> I just made up functions for wall sections, windows, smoke alarms, ...,
> and then placed them programmatically at the desired coordinates, with
> the desired orientation. There is never any doubt about where a
> structure is located, and wall lengths are auto-calculated by summing
> the lengths of individual components. Using that in a "dimension"
> primitive ensures that the annotated dimension is real. And saving some
> floorplan offsets in variables ensured that the corresponding features
> were accurately placed in the sections on the next page.
> 
> And a variable was used for wallheight. When I was talked into changing
> from 2.4m to 2.7m ceilings, editing one variable instantly lifted the
> roof on four elevation and two section drawings. 
> 
> The 8 detailed drawings required around 800 lines of postscript, but
> that's creeping up toward 900 now that I'm adding notes and
> specifications.
> 
> It's faster for me, because GUI produced nothing, but not everyone
> enjoys first programming a stack-based language for a door:
> 
> /door% S: length (door width)
> { dup
> /wall_length exch wall_length add 60 add def % Keep global variable outside 
> dict scope.
>   1 dict begin  % 60 = 2*30 jambs.
>   /length exch def  % Take length off the stack.
>   30 100 box
>   currentpoint translate 
>   0 length lineto length length length 0 length arct 30 100 box gstroke
>   gsave 200 300 moveto length buf cvs show   % Size 
> text.
>   grestore
>   end  % End of local var scope.  
> } def
> 
> but after that, "820 door" chains an 820 mm wide door on the end of the
> current wall, in the current orientation, with lines for the open door
> and swing arc, plus the dimension in text. The variable wall_length is
> kept in global scope, because it accumulates the whole wall length for
> dimensioning purposes.
> 
> If I were building more than one house, it might almost be worth taking
> the thing beyond a one-off convenience hack, but the output is currently
> in for planning approval, and building approval will hopefully not
> require major edits. (It is, however, a delight to be able to edit my
> drawings with Vim. :-))
> 
> For viewing, ps2pdf, then xpdf or whatever
> Applications->Graphics->Document_Viewer is in reality, do the job.
> It's worth knowing that 'r' causes xpdf to reload the pdf file.
> And when diving into postscript, it's worthwhile having downloaded the
> BLUEBOOK.PDF first.
> 
> Erik
> 

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday, 28 Nov 2017 at 15:37, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> After trying to get various GUI drawing packages to function at the most
> basic level, and failing to produce anything, I'm just finishing the 8
> drawings for my new house build (floor plan, elevations, sections, and
> site plan), using raw postscript. That has proven a better fit for a
> retired programmer.

Wow, definitely old skool!  It's been years since I wrote raw
postscript.

On that note, did you look at xfig?  Not a CAD program, as such, but
quite good for drawings of the sort you are doing maybe.  Also old
skool...

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.2


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.11.17 21:35, Doug wrote:
> 
> On 11/23/2017 05:06 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> > Joe wrote:
> > 
> > > What you won't be given is a dialog box with
> > > X and Y size and coordinates, and invited to
> > > edit them, it doesn't work that way.
> > > That's how an object-oriented drawing program
> > > would work.
> > Well, this is certainly a first that I'm an
> > OO guy by intuition, because yes, that is how
> > I would expect it to work. But that is drawing,
> > not CAD?
> > 
> > I wonder if I should get an OO drawing
> > application instead, and what would that be -
> > Dia?
> > 
> > Or perhaps learn CAD as that's more powerful in
> > the long run?
> > 
> Learning CAD is a hard road, but a worthwhile one, I think, because it is so
> versatile.
> Which one you learn will make some difference, depending on what you wind up
> wanting to do with it.

After trying to get various GUI drawing packages to function at the most
basic level, and failing to produce anything, I'm just finishing the 8
drawings for my new house build (floor plan, elevations, sections, and
site plan), using raw postscript. That has proven a better fit for a
retired programmer.

I just made up functions for wall sections, windows, smoke alarms, ...,
and then placed them programmatically at the desired coordinates, with
the desired orientation. There is never any doubt about where a
structure is located, and wall lengths are auto-calculated by summing
the lengths of individual components. Using that in a "dimension"
primitive ensures that the annotated dimension is real. And saving some
floorplan offsets in variables ensured that the corresponding features
were accurately placed in the sections on the next page.

And a variable was used for wallheight. When I was talked into changing
from 2.4m to 2.7m ceilings, editing one variable instantly lifted the
roof on four elevation and two section drawings. 

The 8 detailed drawings required around 800 lines of postscript, but
that's creeping up toward 900 now that I'm adding notes and
specifications.

It's faster for me, because GUI produced nothing, but not everyone
enjoys first programming a stack-based language for a door:

/door% S: length (door width)
{ dup
/wall_length exch wall_length add 60 add def % Keep global variable outside 
dict scope.
  1 dict begin  % 60 = 2*30 jambs.
  /length exch def  % Take length off the stack.
  30 100 box
  currentpoint translate 
  0 length lineto length length length 0 length arct 30 100 box gstroke
  gsave 200 300 moveto length buf cvs show   % Size 
text.
  grestore
  end  % End of local var scope.  
} def

but after that, "820 door" chains an 820 mm wide door on the end of the
current wall, in the current orientation, with lines for the open door
and swing arc, plus the dimension in text. The variable wall_length is
kept in global scope, because it accumulates the whole wall length for
dimensioning purposes.

If I were building more than one house, it might almost be worth taking
the thing beyond a one-off convenience hack, but the output is currently
in for planning approval, and building approval will hopefully not
require major edits. (It is, however, a delight to be able to edit my
drawings with Vim. :-))

For viewing, ps2pdf, then xpdf or whatever
Applications->Graphics->Document_Viewer is in reality, do the job.
It's worth knowing that 'r' causes xpdf to reload the pdf file.
And when diving into postscript, it's worthwhile having downloaded the
BLUEBOOK.PDF first.

Erik

-- 
The meta-problem here is that the configuration wizard does all the approved
rituals (GUI with standardized clicky buttons, help popping up in a browser,
etc. etc.) but doesn't have the central attribute these are supposed to achieve:
discoverability. That is, the quality that every point in the interface has
prompts and actions attached to it from which you can learn what to do next.
   - Eric Raymond, in "The Luxury of Ignorance."

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Gary R wrote:

> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned
> FreeCAD in this whole discussion. It is my
> goto for any cad work. It has an architecture
> workbench, is under heavy development and is
> reasonably intuitive. It will be in your
> distro. just apt-get install freecad. It also
> handles AutoCAD files among quite
> a few others.

FreeCAD is as you say available from the repos
and works out of the box. It has a less
old-school, more polished look than LibreCAD
and seems intuitive again as you say.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Gary Roach]

On 11/24/2017 09:23 AM, Weaver wrote:

On 2017-11-25 02:51, Cousin Stanley wrote:

Emanuel Berg wrote:


Is there a piece of software that works
like gnuplot or pic/troff were you feed
the program a script with instructions and data
and then the program generates the drawing?



You might look at the Graphics Layout Engine
available under debian stretch 

  $ aot show gle-graphics

GLE is a graphics scripting language designed
for creating publication quality figures
such as charts, plots, graphs, and diagrams.

It supports various chart types (including function plot,
histogram, bar chart, scatter plot, contour plot, color map,
and surface plot) through a simple but flexible set
of graphing commands ;

more complex output can be created by relying on i
ts scripting language, which is full featured
with subroutines, variables, and logic control.
  
  
http://glx.sourceforge.net/

Graphics Layout Engine - Home


http://glx.sourceforge.net/examples/index.html
Graphics Layout Engine - Examples


And then there's Tikz, depending on what level of commitment you wish to
put into it.

http://www.texample.net/tikz/

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned FreeCAD in this whole 
discussion. It is my goto for any cad work. It has an architecture 
workbench, is under heavy development and is reasonably intuitive. It 
will be in your distro. just apt-get install freecad. It also handles 
AutoCAD files among quite a few others.


Gary R

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Weaver]

On 2017-11-25 02:51, Cousin Stanley wrote:
> Emanuel Berg wrote:
> 
>>> Is there a piece of software that works
>>> like gnuplot or pic/troff were you feed
>>> the program a script with instructions and data
>>> and then the program generates the drawing?
>>> 
> 
>You might look at the Graphics Layout Engine 
>available under debian stretch  
> 
>  $ aot show gle-graphics
> 
>GLE is a graphics scripting language designed 
>for creating publication quality figures 
>such as charts, plots, graphs, and diagrams. 
> 
>It supports various chart types (including function plot, 
>histogram, bar chart, scatter plot, contour plot, color map, 
>and surface plot) through a simple but flexible set 
>of graphing commands ; 
> 
>more complex output can be created by relying on i
>ts scripting language, which is full featured
>with subroutines, variables, and logic control.
>  
>  
>http://glx.sourceforge.net/
>Graphics Layout Engine - Home
> 
> 
>http://glx.sourceforge.net/examples/index.html
>Graphics Layout Engine - Examples

And then there's Tikz, depending on what level of commitment you wish to
put into it.

http://www.texample.net/tikz/

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Registered Linux User: 554515

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Cousin Stanley]

Emanuel Berg wrote:

>> Is there a piece of software that works
>> like gnuplot or pic/troff were you feed 
>> the program a script with instructions and data
>> and then the program generates the drawing?
>>  

   You might look at the Graphics Layout Engine 
   available under debian stretch  

 $ aot show gle-graphics

   GLE is a graphics scripting language designed 
   for creating publication quality figures 
   such as charts, plots, graphs, and diagrams. 

   It supports various chart types (including function plot, 
   histogram, bar chart, scatter plot, contour plot, color map, 
   and surface plot) through a simple but flexible set 
   of graphing commands ; 

   more complex output can be created by relying on i
   ts scripting language, which is full featured
   with subroutines, variables, and logic control.
 
 
   http://glx.sourceforge.net/
   Graphics Layout Engine - Home


   http://glx.sourceforge.net/examples/index.html
   Graphics Layout Engine - Examples



-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On sex, 24 nov 2017, Emanuel Berg wrote:

If we are talking LaTeX now, does anyone have
a "MWE" as they like to say?

It absolutely doesn't have to be CAD by any
standard other than the ability to draw simple
geometrical objects and have them denoted
with labels.


There are several here: http://www.texample.net/tikz/examples/
--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

>> TikZ and PGF are absolutely awesome (package
>> is texlive-pictures, BTW.). But quite
>> a different kettle of fish: not a CAD
>> program by a long shot.
>
> Definitely, but they do fit his new request:
>
>   Is there a piece of software that works
>   like gnuplot or pic/troff were you feed the
>   program a script with instructions and data
>   and then the program generates the drawing?
>
> There might be even be Tikz libraries for the
> kind of drawing he is looking for.

If we are talking LaTeX now, does anyone have
a "MWE" as they like to say?

It absolutely doesn't have to be CAD by any
standard other than the ability to draw simple
geometrical objects and have them denoted
with labels.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On sex, 24 nov 2017, tomas wrote:

TikZ and PGF are absolutely awesome (package is texlive-pictures, BTW.). But
quite a different kettle of fish: not a CAD program by a long shot.


Definitely, but they do fit his new request:

  Is there a piece of software that works like
  gnuplot or pic/troff were you feed the program
  a script with instructions and data and then
  the program generates the drawing?


There might be even be Tikz libraries for the kind of drawing he is  
looking for.

--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 11:16:52AM +, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

[...]

> Asymptote, perhaps?
> 
> If you're willing to add a little Latex around your drawing, the Tikz package.

TikZ and PGF are absolutely awesome (package is texlive-pictures, BTW.). But
quite a different kettle of fish: not a CAD program by a long shot.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On qui, 23 nov 2017, Emanuel Berg wrote:

Is there a piece of software that works like
gnuplot or pic/troff were you feed the program
a script with instructions and data and then
the program generates the drawing? That would
be simpler and more to the point as I'm not
designing anything, I'm just want a computer
representation of what already is.


Asymptote, perhaps?

If you're willing to add a little Latex around your drawing, the Tikz package.

--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

"Professional" [was: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.]

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 11:00:27AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> t wrote:
> 
> > Yeah. But generally, whatever Professional
> > (TM).
> 
> Here, does "professional" denote some quality
> with the software or is it about who uses it
> and how?

Neither nor. It was sarcastic. But I guess you
got that anyway ;-)

> Because when I chop firewood, I do it with the
> most expansive axe in the hardware store.

Strange. I tend to take the most appropriate for
the job (if I'm going to chop wood every winter,
I try to get one which is durable). But I usually
don't look at the price as long as it is roughly
whithin budget. It's not the label I'm after (and
yes, the price is just part of the label, as you
can see in Apple products, but also Gucci, whatever).

Otherwise I might end up with Ethernet cable for
audiophiles [1] [2]

Cheers

[1] 
https://arstechnica.com/staff/2015/02/to-the-audiophile-this-1-ethernet-cable-apparently-makes-sense/
[2] https://www.whathifi.com/comment/412677#comment-412677

- -- t
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=STvk
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Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

t wrote:

>> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/pic/llc
>
> :-)
>
> Now write an Elisp-to-pic compiler
>
>  (seq (circle :radius 0.5 :label "best effort
> core") (arrow :size 0.2) ...)

This is something I wanted for years. But it
has to be real-time so the moment you evaluate
(plot-pixel 0 0 "red") a red dot appears in
the top-left corner of the screen (can be
a separate window). Perhaps this can be done
with SLIME and SDL, I don't know.

I crosspost this to gmane.emacs.help .

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

t wrote:

> Yeah. But generally, whatever Professional
> (TM).

Here, does "professional" denote some quality
with the software or is it about who uses it
and how?

Because when I chop firewood, I do it with the
most expansive axe in the hardware store.
While this doesn't make me a professional, if
it was too difficult for mere mortals to
handle, there wouldn't be a hardware store to
begin with. Or at least it would be the size of
a spacy apartment and not a stadium.

So as for me, I don't really care how other
people use the software as long as it is there
for me, professional or not.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[tomas]

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On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 09:33:18AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> t wrote:
> 
> > For those of us around a little longer,
> > perhaps you remember that time when GNU/Linux
> > started to get some traction. At that time,
> > Microsoft used to say that well, an OS wasn't
> > that hard, but for something really complex
> > like a web browser... the free software
> > couldn't really pull that off.
> 
> OK, so now the current level of
> "impossibleness" is a FOSS CAD?

Yeah. But generally, whatever Professional (TM). We all know
that free software is just a hobby (or something for cheapskates).

Sorry, I've my sarcastic day today. Must be the approaching
winter ;-P

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

t wrote:

> For those of us around a little longer,
> perhaps you remember that time when GNU/Linux
> started to get some traction. At that time,
> Microsoft used to say that well, an OS wasn't
> that hard, but for something really complex
> like a web browser... the free software
> couldn't really pull that off.

OK, so now the current level of
"impossibleness" is a FOSS CAD?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[tomas]

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On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 03:16:08AM -0500, Anil Duggirala wrote:

[...]

> I would think precisely the opposite. Gaining control over the software
> you use will prove really useful only when you are planning to use it
> for a long time.

The question is... what is useful for us all, not only for *you* or
*me*?

More and more, not gaining control over your software means your
vendor gains control over you (cf. the stampede to the cloud, apps,
many vendor's move to pay-per-use and subscription models, etc. etc.)

To have a remote chance of having a say on this, we "consumers"
have to bundle forces.

No, I don't want to be reduced to a gullet.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Anil Duggirala]

On Fri, Nov 24, 2017, at 02:06 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 03:39:58AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> > Doug wrote:
> > 
> > > I do not disparage the hard work some devs
> > > have put into Linux CAD routines, but I don't
> > > think that's the way to go if you're going to
> > > do some serious CAD work over the course
> > > of time.
> > 

I would think precisely the opposite. Gaining control over the software
you use will prove really useful only when you are planning to use it
for a long time. As an example, I would imagine that a serious person
might require a very specific functionality from the software, then they
could just write the code to achive this function.

Check out Varicad (.com) too, its is propriatary but you can try it for
free.

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[tomas]

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On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 03:39:58AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> 
> > I do not disparage the hard work some devs
> > have put into Linux CAD routines, but I don't
> > think that's the way to go if you're going to
> > do some serious CAD work over the course
> > of time.
> 
> ... why not?

Because that's what Autodesk wants you to believe.

For those of us around a little longer, perhaps you remember that
time when GNU/Linux started to get some traction. At that time,
Microsoft used to say that well, an OS wasn't that hard, but for
something really complex like a web browser... the free software
couldn't really pull that off.

Shortly thereafter Mozilla smashed Internet Explorer into the
ground.

Closed software vendors want you to believe that Professional (TM)
is only possible as proprietary software, and some people (hi,
Doug: no offense intended) swallow this bait, including hook and
sinker (after all, closed software vendors put "some" money into
that, as part of their publicity operation).

This is one of the most damaging mechanisms to free software these
days. Vendors have become much more subtle: watch Microsoft deploying
Linux in their cloud and trumpeting "We love Open Source[1]" --
behind the scenes they are massaging decision makers[2] to fear the
GPL (because this one has teeth).

Pretty disgusting, actually :-(

Cheers

[1] See? They don't want Free Software. They don't want you, the
   user, to be free -- they just want a free ride.
[2] If necessary wining and dining them, to the tune of $$$

- -- tomás
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Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[tomas]

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On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 12:29:06AM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:

[...]

> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/pic/llc

:-)

Now write an Elisp-to-pic compiler

 (seq
  (circle :radius 0.5 :label "best effort core")
  (arrow :size 0.2)
  ...)

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Doug wrote:

> I do not disparage the hard work some devs
> have put into Linux CAD routines, but I don't
> think that's the way to go if you're going to
> do some serious CAD work over the course
> of time.

... why not?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Doug]

On 11/23/2017 05:06 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:

Joe wrote:


What you won't be given is a dialog box with
X and Y size and coordinates, and invited to
edit them, it doesn't work that way.
That's how an object-oriented drawing program
would work.

Well, this is certainly a first that I'm an
OO guy by intuition, because yes, that is how
I would expect it to work. But that is drawing,
not CAD?

I wonder if I should get an OO drawing
application instead, and what would that be -
Dia?

Or perhaps learn CAD as that's more powerful in
the long run?

Learning CAD is a hard road, but a worthwhile one, I think, because it 
is so versatile.

Which one you learn will make some difference, depending on what you wind up
wanting to do with it. I learned some AutoCad 25 years ago, and I got 
pretty good

(but not expert) at it, and the advantages are that many other software and
hardware packages work with it. If you need to make PC boards, you can make
a negative directly (or almost directly) but you can also convert to 
professional
pcb manufacture with available software, you can input the files to 
several other
programs, and some other programs can produce files that AutoCad can 
directly

import, so you can add to the images. AutoCad is priced out of the consumer
market altogether, but DraftSight uses all (or almost?) all the same 
commands,

and will import and export in the same file protocols as AutoCad, so all the
advantages of AutoCad are there for you free for home use, or for a very 
reasonable
price if you need to use it professionally.  Then if for some reason you 
really need
AutoCAd, you will have the skills to do so. Any CAD program has a steep 
learning
curve, and I don't think the skills from one transfer all that easily to 
a different

one with different commands and methods of entry of parameters, so whatever
you pick out and learn is going to be the one you stick with. If you 
need interfacing
with other software, then something compatible with AutoCad is what you 
need.
If you can live with ONLY the CAD routine you learned, then it will not 
matter
whether you use a Linux-specific program or not.  I do not disparage the 
hard
work some devs have put into Linux CAD routines, but I don't think 
that's the
way to go if you're going to do some serious CAD work over the course of 
time.

Just my 2¢ worth.
--doug

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

t wrote:

> The more I read your musings the more I think
> you are looking for OpenSCAD.
>
> Here is a snippet out of some random .scad
> file, the things OpenSCAD stores its data in:
>
>   module strip(startpoint=[0, 0, 0]) {
> translate(startpoint)
>   difference() {
> cube([60, 10, 520]);
> translate([30, -50, 45])
>   rotate([-90, 0, 0])
> cylinder($fn = 100, h = 100, r = 10.25, center = false);
> translate([30, -50, 470])
>   rotate([-90, 0, 0])
> cylinder($fn = 100, h = 100, r = 10.25, center = false)
>   }
>   }
>
> OK, OK, it's not Lisp, but close :)

That sounds like a 3D GFX system? OpenGL-ish.

Anyway if you have a piece of code that will
just draw one 2D box for 5x10m or some other
digits that I can edit in a text file - *and*
a command to actually put it into a file, I'll
consider it. Her damit :)

> There even seem to be (complete? incomplete?
> dunno) Emacs modes for that thing. Let us
> know :-)

Yes, I saw one in MELPA when I searched for
"cad":

scad-mode [...] A major mode for editing OpenSCAD code

There is also "scad-preview".

By the way, here is some pic(1) source I wrote
~7y ago - I even wrote a small tutorial how to
use it - perhaps I can use that now...

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/pic/llc

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[tomas]

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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 11:37:30PM +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Is there a piece of software that works like
> gnuplot or pic/troff were you feed the program
> a script with instructions and data and then
> the program generates the drawing? That would
> be simpler and more to the point as I'm not
> designing anything, I'm just want a computer
> representation of what already is.

The more I read your musings the more I think you
are looking for OpenSCAD.

Here is a snippet out of some random .scad file,
the things OpenSCAD stores its data in:

  module strip(startpoint=[0, 0, 0]) {
translate(startpoint)
  difference() {
cube([60, 10, 520]);
translate([30, -50, 45])
  rotate([-90, 0, 0])
cylinder($fn = 100, h = 100, r = 10.25, center = false);
translate([30, -50, 470])
  rotate([-90, 0, 0])
cylinder($fn = 100, h = 100, r = 10.25, center = false)
  }
  }

OK, OK, it's not Lisp, but close :)

I haven't used it much (I haven't used any CAD much), but as far
as I have seen, you can freely alternate clicking-and-dragging
and typing functions in this kind of functional-y language.

There even seem to be (complete? incomplete? dunno) Emacs modes
for that thing. Let us know :-)

One data point more.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Is there a piece of software that works like
gnuplot or pic/troff were you feed the program
a script with instructions and data and then
the program generates the drawing? That would
be simpler and more to the point as I'm not
designing anything, I'm just want a computer
representation of what already is.
 
-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Joe wrote:

> What you won't be given is a dialog box with
> X and Y size and coordinates, and invited to
> edit them, it doesn't work that way.
> That's how an object-oriented drawing program
> would work.

Well, this is certainly a first that I'm an
OO guy by intuition, because yes, that is how
I would expect it to work. But that is drawing,
not CAD?

I wonder if I should get an OO drawing
application instead, and what would that be -
Dia?

Or perhaps learn CAD as that's more powerful in
the long run?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Joe]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 21:26:12 +0100
Emanuel Berg  wrote:

> Cousin Stanley wrote:
> 
> > You might find useful information at the
> > LibreCAD site [...]  
> 
> OK, thanks Cousin Stanley and Farmer Joe, so
> the short answers to my question "how do I draw
> an approximate rectangle and then set the
> properties to the measured values" is
> 1. don't do it, 

By preference. While you are placing the second corner of the
rectangle, the X and Y size will be shown in the status bar. That is by
far the easiest way to get a rectangle of the size you want. But you can
select a finished rectangle by dragging around it, open Tools, Modify,
Scale and you will be asked to mark a reference point, then enter X and
Y scaling values. It's up to you to know the current size, and the
scaling factors you need.

What you won't be given is a dialog box with X and Y size and
coordinates, and invited to edit them, it doesn't work that way. That's
how an object-oriented drawing program would work. In LibreCAD,
'Properties' and 'Attributes' are just types and colours of lines, and
the layer on which the line sits. These things can be edited. 

You can drag individual rectangle corners after creating it, but you
don't get a reading of overall size, you have to keep track of how much
to enlarge or shrink it. On the other hand, if you're fitting a
rectangle around other existing objects, and you don't know the size in
advance, this is the way to do it.

The Tools, Modify menu contains a large range of transformations, from
duplicating to scaling to moving to another layer to trimming two
intersecting lines so they just meet, and others. You can dock this
menu as a toolbar with icons if you wish. With CAD, there's always a
tradeoff between displaying toolbars and having enough area to work in.

-- 
Joe

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Cousin Stanley wrote:

> You might find useful information at the
> LibreCAD site [...]

OK, thanks Cousin Stanley and Farmer Joe, so
the short answers to my question "how do I draw
an approximate rectangle and then set the
properties to the measured values" is
1. don't do it, and 2. use the command line.

The command line doesn't look that powerful (a
tiny box in the bottom-right corner) but I'm
glad there is one. More than meets the eye.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Joe]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 10:07:54 -0600
David Wright  wrote:

> On Thu 23 Nov 2017 at 09:05:51 (+), Joe wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 02:05:14 +0100
> > Emanuel Berg  wrote:
> >   
> > > Librecad seems good and I got it working
> > > instantly on a Debian box.
> > > 
> > > Only how do I draw a box and then change the
> > > properties to specific side lengths?
> > > 
> > > For example, if I want to picture a building
> > > that is rectangular (from above) with one side
> > > 10m and the other 5m?
> > > 
> > > I managed to make an approximate rectangle with
> > > the "rectangle" tool but how do I bring up
> > > properties so that I can assign the
> > > exact values?  
> > 
> > The primitives such as rectangles are not objects as such, but
> > collections of lines. Lines can be extended and shortened, but it is
> > easier to draw the rectangle the right size to start with.  
> 
> Having spent two years watching our architects manipulate our house
> on screen, this doesn't correspond with my experience of CAD.
> We'd still have an empty yard if each rectangle had to be drawn
> the right size.
> 

No, you can do practically anything imaginable, but someone beginning
will be better off taking a few steps at a time. You can certainly
select multiple objects and scale them all together, but much of the
time that's not what you want to do, you want to scale some of it and
move the rest unscaled. You can also bring in complete blocks, or make
blocks out of existing primitives, and then work on the whole thing more
easily, but at the expense of fine control of the parts.

It's the same with anything with a fairly fearsome number of bells and
whistles, such as the GIMP, quite intimidating at first meeting with
that kind of software. Gradually you learn to do more, and to find
easier ways of doing things you're currently doing the hard way.

-- 
Joe

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[David Wright]

On Thu 23 Nov 2017 at 09:05:51 (+), Joe wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 02:05:14 +0100
> Emanuel Berg  wrote:
> 
> > Librecad seems good and I got it working
> > instantly on a Debian box.
> > 
> > Only how do I draw a box and then change the
> > properties to specific side lengths?
> > 
> > For example, if I want to picture a building
> > that is rectangular (from above) with one side
> > 10m and the other 5m?
> > 
> > I managed to make an approximate rectangle with
> > the "rectangle" tool but how do I bring up
> > properties so that I can assign the
> > exact values?
> 
> The primitives such as rectangles are not objects as such, but
> collections of lines. Lines can be extended and shortened, but it is
> easier to draw the rectangle the right size to start with.

Having spent two years watching our architects manipulate our house
on screen, this doesn't correspond with my experience of CAD.
We'd still have an empty yard if each rectangle had to be drawn
the right size.

Cheers,
David.

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Cousin Stanley]

Emanuel Berg wrote:

> Librecad seems good and I got it working
> instantly on a Debian box.
> 
> Only how do I draw a box and then change the
> properties to specific side lengths?
>  

  You might find useful information 
  at the LibreCAD site  

http://librecad.org/cms/home.html

http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/Main_Page


  The command-line interface could be useful
  for setting particular properties  


http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/A_short_manual_for_use_from_the_command_line


  YouTube videos  

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=librecad&oq=librecad



-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[tomas]

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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:46:46PM +0100, hdv@gmail wrote:
> On 2017-11-23 09:08, Weaver wrote:
> 
> > I don't think you'll find LibreCad is `dead'.
> > I think you'll find it just takes a little more than five minutes to get
> > on top of a programme.
> > The traffic on a mailing list is also no indication of usage or how
> > `good' a package is.
> > Traffic may well be low because of ease of use, for example.
> > 
> > Of course, if you're happy paying for your software, why don't you move
> > straight to AutoCad?
> 
> Why the hostility? I didn't say LibreCAD is bad or even that is _was_ dead. I 
> am
> just inclined to think so based on my (admittedly limited) experience with it.

Yes. To be fair, QCad is GPLV3, according to [1] -- I didn't look at
the sources, though. With proprietary plugins.

Now this is the "open core" [2] license model, which does have problems
of its own and has been criticized fot that (among other things, the
parent company has a financial interest in keeping the free core as
uncomfortable as possible to suck users into the proprietary extensions),
but that doesn't mean that *all* companies give in to this temptation.
On the contrary, there are really good examples of this model being put
to good use out there.

So be careful with criticism until you really have looked into how
those folks behave...

(No, I don't know how QCad scores here. Anyone willing to find out?)

All generalizations suck :-)

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QCad
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_core
- -- tomás
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Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[hdv@gmail]

On 2017-11-23 09:08, Weaver wrote:

> I don't think you'll find LibreCad is `dead'.
> I think you'll find it just takes a little more than five minutes to get
> on top of a programme.
> The traffic on a mailing list is also no indication of usage or how
> `good' a package is.
> Traffic may well be low because of ease of use, for example.
> 
> Of course, if you're happy paying for your software, why don't you move
> straight to AutoCad?

Why the hostility? I didn't say LibreCAD is bad or even that is _was_ dead. I am
just inclined to think so based on my (admittedly limited) experience with it.

And concerning the use of FLOSS: you are barking up at the wrong tree. If been a
focal and active participant of the community since the early nineties. I also
sponsor lots of projects out of my own pocket. Can you say that?

Anyway, why the PM? I sent my answer to the list. Why don't you?

Grx HdV

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Joe]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 02:05:14 +0100
Emanuel Berg  wrote:

> Librecad seems good and I got it working
> instantly on a Debian box.
> 
> Only how do I draw a box and then change the
> properties to specific side lengths?
> 
> For example, if I want to picture a building
> that is rectangular (from above) with one side
> 10m and the other 5m?
> 
> I managed to make an approximate rectangle with
> the "rectangle" tool but how do I bring up
> properties so that I can assign the
> exact values?

The primitives such as rectangles are not objects as such, but
collections of lines. Lines can be extended and shortened, but it is
easier to draw the rectangle the right size to start with.

Watch the status bar for distances and angles from the last plotted
point. There is a toolbar icon to move the reference point without
drawing anything. There are scaling settings, which I never use as I
work to real sizes, but you will presumably need.

I use the snap selection toolbar heavily, which allows the kind of
snapping to be chosen: to ends of lines, gridlines and several others.
There are also switches to constrain movement to the vertical or the
horizontal. I normally use a guide layer, where I add useful lines to
make later constructions easier, this layer can be turned off except
when actually in use, and while visible, the snap tools work with
things on it.
> 
> I made a search on Gmane (news.gmane.org) for
> "librecad" but apparently no mailing list is
> registered there. Also, on aioe (nntp.aioe.org)
> there seems to be no Usenet group dedicated to
> librecad. Now this speaks volumes.
> Aren't people using it?
> 

Yes, though occasionally, not professionally. Any CAD is a bit
difficult to pick up, familiarity comes with time. I find this useful:
http://wiki.librecad.org/index.php/Main_Page

There's plenty of this kind of thing about:
https://flurry.dg.fmph.uniba.sk/webog/SuboryOG/bohdal/Librecad-%20by%20Jasleen_Kaur.pdf

Mr Google will answer many questions, and there's the odd YouTube
tutorial.

-- 
Joe

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Anil Duggirala]

> > For example, if I want to picture a building
> > that is rectangular (from above) with one side
> > 10m and the other 5m?
> > 
> > I managed to make an approximate rectangle with
> > the "rectangle" tool but how do I bring up
> > properties so that I can assign the
> > exact values?
> > 
> > I made a search on Gmane (news.gmane.org) for
> > "librecad" but apparently no mailing list is
> > registered there. Also, on aioe (nntp.aioe.org)
> > there seems to be no Usenet group dedicated to
> > librecad. Now this speaks volumes.
> > Aren't people using it?
> > 
> 
> This was one of the reasons I decided to change to QCAD. If even choose
> to pay
> the € 33 for the Pro version. It works like a charm, has good
> documentation (I
> can recommend the official e-book that can be bought separately), and in
> many
> subtle ways is more user-friendly. My experience with their customer
> support and
> the forum is very good as well. (No I don't have shares, I am just a
> happy
> customer. ;-) )
> 
> If you think this type of software is what you need, then I would try out
> QCAD
> instead of LibreCAD. I've been subscribed to their mailing list for
> almost a
> year now and I don't think I've seen more than 3 messages on it. I might
> be
> missing things, but I am inclined to think that LibreCAD is "dead".
> 
> Grx HdV
> 


Yes. QCad will provide more forthcoming help. 
Keep in mind the command line is your friend when modifying existing
objects.

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[hdv@gmail]

On 2017-11-23 02:05, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Librecad seems good and I got it working
> instantly on a Debian box.
> 
> Only how do I draw a box and then change the
> properties to specific side lengths?
> 
> For example, if I want to picture a building
> that is rectangular (from above) with one side
> 10m and the other 5m?
> 
> I managed to make an approximate rectangle with
> the "rectangle" tool but how do I bring up
> properties so that I can assign the
> exact values?
> 
> I made a search on Gmane (news.gmane.org) for
> "librecad" but apparently no mailing list is
> registered there. Also, on aioe (nntp.aioe.org)
> there seems to be no Usenet group dedicated to
> librecad. Now this speaks volumes.
> Aren't people using it?
> 

This was one of the reasons I decided to change to QCAD. If even choose to pay
the € 33 for the Pro version. It works like a charm, has good documentation (I
can recommend the official e-book that can be bought separately), and in many
subtle ways is more user-friendly. My experience with their customer support and
the forum is very good as well. (No I don't have shares, I am just a happy
customer. ;-) )

If you think this type of software is what you need, then I would try out QCAD
instead of LibreCAD. I've been subscribed to their mailing list for almost a
year now and I don't think I've seen more than 3 messages on it. I might be
missing things, but I am inclined to think that LibreCAD is "dead".

Grx HdV

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Librecad seems good and I got it working
instantly on a Debian box.

Only how do I draw a box and then change the
properties to specific side lengths?

For example, if I want to picture a building
that is rectangular (from above) with one side
10m and the other 5m?

I managed to make an approximate rectangle with
the "rectangle" tool but how do I bring up
properties so that I can assign the
exact values?

I made a search on Gmane (news.gmane.org) for
"librecad" but apparently no mailing list is
registered there. Also, on aioe (nntp.aioe.org)
there seems to be no Usenet group dedicated to
librecad. Now this speaks volumes.
Aren't people using it?

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Tom Furie]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 01:01:57PM -0500, Doug wrote:

> install some kind of sound, and PCLOS doesn't know what to do with that. If
> there is an Ubuntu version then it should certainly install in Debian, which
> INVENTED the .deb system. Try it--the

The advice to not install an Ubuntu package on a Debian system is not
about any problem with the packaging system, it's about the differences
between the distributions.

Cheers,
Tom

-- 
Not for human consumption.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Doug]

On 11/22/2017 05:36 AM, Anil Duggirala wrote:

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017, at 10:02 PM, Doug wrote:


On 11/21/2017 05:04 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:

Kent West wrote:



I've recently discovered sweethome3d, and
have enjoyed designing a new house
for myself.



  CAD Software Free Download | DRAFTSIGHT™ - Dassault Systèmes®
  


https://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/free-download/
February /2017/: This is a very critical hotfix. All customers who 
downloaded /DraftSight/ between 2012 to /2017/ must install this 
hotfix to avoid usage interruptions .


DraftSight is proprietary software with various limitations. They only 
provide a package for Ubuntu and Fedora, I would not attempt 
installing that on Debian as is. Librecad or Qcad are the best options 
to my knowledge.
The only limitation I know of is against using it for business. For home 
use, no problem. Install on PCLOS (rpm version) works. You must use "no 
deps" in the command, because it wants to
install some kind of sound, and PCLOS doesn't know what to do with that. 
If there is an Ubuntu version then it should certainly install in 
Debian, which INVENTED the .deb system. Try it--the
AutoCad commands may be useful if you ever get into a business situation 
where AutoCad is the primary 2D program. Of course, you CAN use it for 
business--you just have to buy it. It is

VERY MUCH cheaper than any version of AutoCad!

--doug (retired RF engineer)
1

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Anil Duggirala wrote:

> Librecad or Qcad are the best options to my
> knowledge.

QCad:

QCad has been removed from wheezy for
depending on qt3 and containing non-
distributable fonts, patterns, libraries,
and documentation.

LibreCAD is the community-maintained qt4
port of QCad and has superseded Qcad in
Debian as the package "librecad".

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Anil Duggirala wrote:

> Librecad or Qcad are the best options to
> my knowledge.

Both are in the repos as well.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Anil Duggirala]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017, at 10:02 PM, Doug wrote:
> 
> On 11/21/2017 05:04 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> Kent West wrote:

>>
>>> I've recently discovered sweethome3d, and have enjoyed designing a
>>> new house for myself.
>>>
>> sweethome3d is in my repos but it says it is an "interior" design
>> application and what I need is an "exterior" ditto :)  No sign of
>> DraftSight tho so how would one acquire and install that?  Besides if
>> it is heavy on your boxes I don't think it will even run here.
>> Perhaps I should just do ASCII art in Emacs...

>>> 
> CAD Software Free Download | DRAFTSIGHT™ - Dassault Systèmes®[1]


> https://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/free-download/> 
> February *2017*: This is a very critical hotfix. All customers who
> downloaded *DraftSight* between 2012 to *2017* must install this
> hotfix to avoid usage interruptions .
DraftSight is proprietary software with various limitations. They only
provide a package for Ubuntu and Fedora, I would not attempt installing
that on Debian as is. Librecad or Qcad are the best options to my
knowledge.
Links:

  1. 
https://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/free-download/

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Doug]

On 11/21/2017 05:04 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:

Kent West wrote:


I've recently discovered sweethome3d, and
have enjoyed designing a new house
for myself.

sweethome3d is in my repos but it says it is an
"interior" design application and what I need
is an "exterior" ditto :)

No sign of DraftSight tho so how would one
acquire and install that?

Besides if it is heavy on your boxes I don't
think it will even run here. Perhaps I should
just do ASCII art in Emacs...




 CAD Software Free Download | DRAFTSIGHT^(TM) - Dassault Systèmes®
 


https://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/free-download/
February /2017/: This is a very critical hotfix. All customers who 
downloaded /DraftSight/ between 2012 to /2017/ must install this hotfix 
to avoid usage interruptions .

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Joe wrote:

> It looks to be a general-purpose CAD program,
> with no obvious house/garden object library,
> so I wouldn't have thought it would be much
> of an improvement over LibreCAD (formerly
> QCad).

$ aptitude show librecad

LibreCAD is an application for computer aided
design (CAD) in two dimensions (2D).
With LibreCAD you can create technical drawings
such as plans for buildings, interiors,
mechanical parts or schematics and diagrams.

Yeah - sounds great!

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Joe wrote:

> If you really need 3d, then you might try
> openSCAD, where you basically write
> subroutines and the graphic bit renders them,
> not terribly photorealistically. But there
> are lots of libraries for it, which may
> include some useful garden stuff. You can
> probably also find garden objects in 2d form
> in DXF files, which LibreCAD can deal with.

I'd like 2D, top down, big squares for the
buildings, with doors and windows, then fences,
trees etc. between them.

It doesn't have to look good in the
photorealistic sense - actually it is better it
just looks clean and to-the-point.

The purpose it to print it huge and put it on
a wall so people can learn what the different
houses are and can communicate efficiently with
things having names so it won't be "put it over
there... behind it... to your left... I mean
your *other* left" and so on...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Joe]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:04:14 +0100
Emanuel Berg  wrote:

> Kent West wrote:
> 
> > I've recently discovered sweethome3d, and
> > have enjoyed designing a new house
> > for myself.  
> 
> sweethome3d is in my repos but it says it is an
> "interior" design application and what I need
> is an "exterior" ditto :)
> 
> No sign of DraftSight tho so how would one
> acquire and install that?
> 
> Besides if it is heavy on your boxes I don't
> think it will even run here. Perhaps I should
> just do ASCII art in Emacs...
> 

It looks to be a general-purpose CAD program, with no obvious
house/garden object library, so I wouldn't have thought it would be
much of an improvement over LibreCAD (formerly QCad).

I used to have a purpose-built house/garden design program, but this was
long ago, and was for Windows.

If you really need 3d, then you might try openSCAD, where you basically
write subroutines and the graphic bit renders them, not terribly
photorealistically. But there are lots of libraries for it, which may
include some useful garden stuff. You can probably also find garden
objects in 2d form in DXF files, which LibreCAD can deal with.

-- 
Joe

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

Kent West wrote:

> I've recently discovered sweethome3d, and
> have enjoyed designing a new house
> for myself.

sweethome3d is in my repos but it says it is an
"interior" design application and what I need
is an "exterior" ditto :)

No sign of DraftSight tho so how would one
acquire and install that?

Besides if it is heavy on your boxes I don't
think it will even run here. Perhaps I should
just do ASCII art in Emacs...

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Kent West]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Emanuel Berg  wrote:

> What software is typically used to do outdoor
> drawings with houses, gardens, etc.?
>
> I know about Dia, Gimp, and such but was
> wondering if there is specific software?
>
> It can be either "kid style" when you drag and
> drop items (as long as the proportions are
> correct), or basically whatever tools
> professionals and DIYers use.
>
> The coolest interface would be a mixture of GUI
> and CLI where you'd type what items and with
> what proportions and properties you'd like, and
> where, and then it would appear graphically on
> screen just like that :)
>
> --
> underground experts united
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
>
>

I've recently discovered sweethome3d, and have enjoyed designing a new
house for myself.

It locks up (hard!) my two-monitor Debian box, but works fine, albeit a bit
slowly, in a Debian VM on a MacBook (with SSD, not platter drive). It also
works fine on another Debian box, to which I can remote control via x11vnc
from my two-monitor Debian box.

Probably not professional-grade, but I've enjoyed tinkering with it.


-- 
Kent West<")))><
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Doug]

On 11/21/2017 12:05 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:

What software is typically used to do outdoor
drawings with houses, gardens, etc.?

I know about Dia, Gimp, and such but was
wondering if there is specific software?

It can be either "kid style" when you drag and
drop items (as long as the proportions are
correct), or basically whatever tools
professionals and DIYers use.

The coolest interface would be a mixture of GUI
and CLI where you'd type what items and with
what proportions and properties you'd like, and
where, and then it would appear graphically on
screen just like that :)


What the pros use is DraftSight, free for non-pro use, but
it won't put flowers unless you make the flowers first!
DraftSight is a clone of AutoCad, so those who are familiar
with AutoCad will have no trouble at all.

--doug

software to do drawings of houses, gardens, etc.

[Emanuel Berg]

What software is typically used to do outdoor
drawings with houses, gardens, etc.?

I know about Dia, Gimp, and such but was
wondering if there is specific software?

It can be either "kid style" when you drag and
drop items (as long as the proportions are
correct), or basically whatever tools
professionals and DIYers use.

The coolest interface would be a mixture of GUI
and CLI where you'd type what items and with
what proportions and properties you'd like, and
where, and then it would appear graphically on
screen just like that :)

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573