Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[kartik]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Joerg Jaspert  wrote:

- - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[   ] Choice 1: Enhance seconders to 2Q [3:1]
[   ] Choice 2: Enhance seconders to Q [3:1]
[   ] Choice 3: Further Discussion
- - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

As this will change the constitution it will need a 3:1 to win. (see
Constitution 4.1.2)

Of course, this being a proposal to enhance the required seconds, I
would love if many people do second this, even if we might be past the
currently needed limit already. The more the better. :)

PROPOSAL START

General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
to initiate one are too small.

Therefore the Debian project resolves that
 a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
   a resolution, but floor(2Q). [see §4.2(1)]
 b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
   as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
   period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
   developers to sponsor the resolution.
 c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]

(Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).

PROPOSAL END


Seconded!

--
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Kartik Mistry | 0xD1028C8D | IRC: kart_
Debian GNU/Linux Developer
Blog.en: ftbfs.wordpress.com
Blog.gu: kartikm.wordpress.com



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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Russ Allbery]

Mike O'Connor  writes:

> And then, of course, there are the other dozens of licenses.  Some of
> them (such as the BSD license in /usr/share/common-licenses/BSD) very
> clearly require us to list copyright holders somewhere in the binary
> packages.  Some don't have this requirement in the license.  Some are
> less clear.

The BSD license does not require that we list all copyright holders
somewhere in the binary packages.  It requires that we reproduce a *very
specific* copyright notice in all binary packages, namely the one stated
directly above the license terms.  This is quite different if there are
other files that don't reproduce the license and only have a copyright
attached and a note saying they're released under the general terms of
the package (or don't say anything but it's known to the packager that's
the intent), which is not uncommon.

If we replaced that copyright notice with all the copyright holders from
the package and none of those resulting notices were exactly the same as
the one immediately above the license, we'd actually arguably be violating
the BSD license.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Mike O'Connor]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 03:08:26PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 09:38:04PM +, Mark Hymers wrote:
> > I've therefore asked the DPL to get us legal advice on the minimum
> > copyright information we should ship in debian/copyright.  Once we get
> > this, I propose we amend policy to be crystal clear about what we need
> > (basically, what we can get away with[0]) and then all carry on.
> 
> I think this needs to be a two-part question to the lawyer: what does
> copyright law require, and what does the GPLv3 require.  I believe they are
> not the same.
> 

And then, of course, there are the other dozens of licenses.  Some of
them (such as the BSD license in /usr/share/common-licenses/BSD) very
clearly require us to list copyright holders somewhere in the binary
packages.  Some don't have this requirement in the license.  Some are
less clear.

stew


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Re: Amendment: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Martín Ferrari]

On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 15:49 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:


> PROPOSAL START
> 
> General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
> Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
> to initiate one are too small.
> 
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(Q). [see §4.2(1)]
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.
>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]
> 
> (Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).
> 
> PROPOSAL END

I second this proposal


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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Mark Hymers]

On Sat, 21, Mar, 2009 at 03:08:26PM -0700, Steve Langasek spoke thus..
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 09:38:04PM +, Mark Hymers wrote:
> > I've therefore asked the DPL to get us legal advice on the minimum
> > copyright information we should ship in debian/copyright.  Once we get
> > this, I propose we amend policy to be crystal clear about what we need
> > (basically, what we can get away with[0]) and then all carry on.
> 
> I think this needs to be a two-part question to the lawyer: what does
> copyright law require, and what does the GPLv3 require.  I believe they are
> not the same.

Good point.  I think we need to fairly carefully phrase the questions we
ask of the lawyer and would welcome assistance in drafting them.

Mark

-- 
Mark Hymers 

"I told you I was ill"
 The epitaph of Spike Milligan (1918-2002)


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Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Mark Hymers]

On Sat, 21, Mar, 2009 at 03:47:57PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert spoke thus..
> - - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> [   ] Choice 1: Enhance seconders to 2Q [3:1]
> [   ] Choice 2: Enhance seconders to Q [3:1]
> [   ] Choice 3: Further Discussion
> - - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> 
> As this will change the constitution it will need a 3:1 to win. (see
> Constitution 4.1.2)
> 
> Of course, this being a proposal to enhance the required seconds, I
> would love if many people do second this, even if we might be past the
> currently needed limit already. The more the better. :)
> 
> PROPOSAL START
> 
> General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
> Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
> to initiate one are too small.
> 
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(2Q). [see §4.2(1)]
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.
>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]
> 
> (Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).
> 
> PROPOSAL END

Seconded.

Mark

-- 
Mark Hymers 

"Irish police are being handicapped in a search for a stolen van, because
 they cannot issue a description. It's a special branch vehicle, and they
 don't want the public to know what it looks like."
 The Guardian


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Re: Question for DPL Candidates: sponsorship of Debian development by companies?

[Steve McIntyre]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 07:41:34PM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
>On 21/03/09 at 02:34 +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> >Zack wrote that no one already contributing to Debian should be
>> >authorized to pick bounties offered by Debian directly. Would you
>> >encourage a similar position for bounties offered as part of the Google
>> >Summer of Code, for example?
>> 
>> No. Who is picked in the end should depend on the terms of the scheme
>> involved and on the quality of the particular projects. In the
>> specific example of the GSoC, I'm much more interested in the
>> likelihood of the student project to succeed than in who the student
>> is.
>
>That's interesting, especially with your role of GSOC admin for Debian.

Yup, I remember you've complained about it in the past.

>Let's imagine that a random company contacted you (as DPL) and said:
>"I'll give you enough money to pay 10 DDs during 2 months to work on
>Debian ; you are free to choose who gets the jobs, and what people will
>work on". 

I have no interest in making such a choice. I'd rather push the
company and DDs towards each other and let them work things out that
way. We've already had a number of places where companies have hired
DDs or paid them for certain jobs that they were interested in.

>It's not totally unrealistic: it's what Google does with GSOC (except
>that they impose that those who get the job are students, and that they
>reserve the right to reject specific projects/students).

That's over-simplified to the point of being incorrect. Google ask us
as a project to rank the student applications we receive, and to tell
them how many projects we would like funding for. We specifically ask
DDs to rate the applications and we use those ratings to rank the
applications. There are already multiple admins and mentors
registered, and we would like as many DDs as possible to help us make
the decisions.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"I suspect most samba developers are already technically insane... Of
 course, since many of them are Australians, you can't tell." -- Linus Torvalds


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Re: Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

[Steve McIntyre]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:47:49PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
>Le Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:04:59PM +, Steve McIntyre a écrit :
>> 
>> I can also see that you have your own menu/desktop topic there too
>> that I expect you'll want to raise. What are your plans for that?
>> 
>> [1] http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny
>
>Hi Steve,



Yay!

>Last year I reviewed the debtags of ~100 packages in one month and a half; this
>makes me confident that if I have a few monthes plus some help, I can fuel
>perseverance and get the transition done.

Cool, sounds good.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
  Mature Sporty Personal
  More Innovation More Adult
  A Man in Dandism
  Powered Midship Specialty


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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Ben Finney]

Josselin Mouette  writes:

> as per Constitution 4.1.3, I am proposing the following General
> Resolution.

Have we really reached the end of the normal informal discussion
process on this issue without resolution? Proposing a formal GR now
seems very premature.

> If you need to understand the rationale, please read the thread on
> debian-devel with "Sponsorship requirements and copyright files" as
> title, especially the 87wsajgefj@vorlon.ganneff.de and
> 87mybehqhx@vorlon.ganneff.de postings.

For what it's worth, my argument is summarised in Message-ID:
<87bprwlp7d@benfinney.id.au>
http://lists.debian.org/debian-policy/2009/03/msg00246.html>.

I'll underline the point that the discussion is *recent* and *ongoing*
on this issue, and many points have yet to be made. It still appears
quite feasible that a consensus will be reached *without* invoking any
formal procedure.

-- 
 \“I was in the grocery store. I saw a sign that said ‘pet |
  `\  supplies’. So I did. Then I went outside and saw a sign that |
_o__) said ‘compact cars’.” —Steven Wright |
Ben Finney 


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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Josselin Mouette]

Le samedi 21 mars 2009 à 20:04 +0100, Patrick Schoenfeld a écrit :
> Its so easy to give his own opinion more weight by using extortion as a
> method. 

Call it extortion if you want, but this is probably going to happen to a
number of large packages unless this requirement goes away.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'   Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told
  `-me that if you don't install Lenny, he'd melt your brain.


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Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Don Armstrong]

I'm going to make suggestions for changes to both proposals here; just
change 2*floor(Q) to floor(Q) for the second alternative. Note that
I've switched from floor(2Q) to 2*floor(Q); this changes the majority
requirements from 31 to 30, which is what the extended rationale said
as an example.

Also, I don't believe that §4.2.3 is required if we're going to have
the same procedure for both voting procedure changes, ctte overrides,
and other general overrides

Finally, I've modified the language of §4.2.2 slightly to make it
clear that the proposal needs to explicitly say that it puts the
delegate's decision on hold to avoid any need for the secretary to
have to interpret whether it does or does not.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(2Q). [see §4.2(1)]

a) §4.2.1 is changed to read:

The Developers follow the Standard Resolution Procedure, below. A
resolution or amendment is introduced if proposed by any Developer and
sponsored by at least 2*floor(Q) other Developers, or if proposed by
the Project Leader or the Technical Committee.


>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.

b) §4.2.2 is changed to read:

When a resolution has been sponsored by at least floor(Q) Developers,
or if it is proposed by the Technical Committee, the resolution puts
the decision immediately on hold, provided that resolution itself says
that it will put the decision on hold immediately.

c) §4.2.3 is deleted.

>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]

d) §4.2.7 is changed to read:

Q is half of the square root of the number of current Developers.
floor(Q) is the nearest integer less than or equal to Q. 2*floor(Q) is
two times floor(Q). Q need not be an integer and is not rounded.

e) §4.2 is renumbered to remain in sequence.


Don Armstrong

-- 
Vimes hated and despised the privileges of rank, but they had this to
be said for them: At least they meant that you could hate and despise
them in comfort.
 -- Terry Pratchett _The Fifth Elephant_ p111

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Steve Langasek]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 09:38:04PM +, Mark Hymers wrote:
> I've therefore asked the DPL to get us legal advice on the minimum
> copyright information we should ship in debian/copyright.  Once we get
> this, I propose we amend policy to be crystal clear about what we need
> (basically, what we can get away with[0]) and then all carry on.

I think this needs to be a two-part question to the lawyer: what does
copyright law require, and what does the GPLv3 require.  I believe they are
not the same.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Josselin Mouette]

Le samedi 21 mars 2009 à 20:34 +0100, Holger Levsen a écrit :
> seconded. Though I would appreciate if it would clarify that debian/copyright 
> still needs to be present and list the licence and *should try to* list all 
> authors.

IMHO the policy is already clear on it. Furthermore, I don’t think
anyone is questioning the need for accurate licensing information in
debian/copyright.

-- 
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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Mark Hymers]

In gmane.linux.debian.devel.vote, you wrote:
> 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< -
>
> The Debian project hereby resolves that the copyright files of binary
> packages shipped in the distribution are not required to contain an
> accurate and up-to-date listing of copyright holders.
>
> 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< -

Joss,

To be honest, I've no idea when this policy started (it predates my
involvment with ftpteam is as close as I've come) and personally I think
it's time-wasting nonsense.  On the other hand, as I don't know who
instigated it and why, I'm reluctant to ask for it to be changed without
understanding the rationale behind it.

I've therefore asked the DPL to get us legal advice on the minimum
copyright information we should ship in debian/copyright.  Once we get
this, I propose we amend policy to be crystal clear about what we need
(basically, what we can get away with[0]) and then all carry on.

Given this, would you consent to holding off on the GR until the legal
advice is available?

Thanks,

Mark

[0] Of course, the project could decide that we want more info than that
for whatever reason, but the point is that it'll be clear at that point
what we *have* to provide.


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Re: Question to Stefano, Steve and Luk about the organisation into packaging teams.

[Patrick Schoenfeld]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 01:11:58PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 01:43:16PM +0100, Patrick Schoenfeld wrote:
> > What do you think about such a proposal?
> 
> Why are you asking the DPL candidates what they think of this proposal,
> instead of proposing it to the developers?

Well, because it is in line with the questions which they have been
asked and its both a good chance to see weither they stand on a similar point
as I do and to see weither anyone is interested in the idea
at all. Surely I intend to propose it to the larger body once its more then
a rough idea.

Regards,
Patrick


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Re: Question to Stefano, Steve and Luk about the organisation into packaging teams.

[Steve Langasek]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 01:43:16PM +0100, Patrick Schoenfeld wrote:
> Some of these packages are very well maintained and others.. well,
> bug numbers sometimes speak for themselves. For these packages we have
> that cool text on the PTS pages: "The package is of priority standard
> or higher, you should really find some co-maintainers." which brought
> me on this at all. What I thought about when I read that is: "HaHaHa,
> we are kidding on us own, because we recommend something to us, what
> should actually be the default (for this type of packages).
> Thats why I thought it would eventually be a good idea to form a core
> team, meaning a team of a bunch of people (10-20?), with wide-spread
> knowledge and known to have enough free time (e.g. people who have > 50
> packages and aren't able to keep up with the bug reports in their own
> packages wouldn't qualify) that gets the job to (co-)maintain all these
> packages that are very important to us. It doesn't mean that the
> existing maintainers are taken away the packages, because they could
> still stay the maintainers, but obviously some of these packages are not
> easily maintainable by one person.

> What do you think about such a proposal?

Why are you asking the DPL candidates what they think of this proposal,
instead of proposing it to the developers?

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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[not a second] Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 21/03/09 at 15:47 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have felt for some time that the low requirement for seconds on General
> Resolutions is something that should be fixed. Currently it needs 5
> supporters to get any idea laid before every Debian Developer to vote
> on. While this small number was a good thing at the time Debian was
> smaller, I think it is no longer the case. We currently have over 1000
> Developers, and even if not everyone is active all the time, there
> should be a little higher barrier before all of them have to deal with
> something, effectively taking away time from their usual Debian work.

I can't think of any vote in the (recent) past that shouldn't have
happened. Can you point at one?

> While one could go and define another arbitary number, like 10 or 15 or
> whatever, I propose to move this to something that is dependent on the
> actual number of Developers, as defined by the secretary, and to
> increase its value from the current 5 to something higher. My personal
> goal is 2Q there, which would mean 30 supporters. If you can't find 30
> supporters, out of 1000 Developers, your idea is most probably not worth
> taking up time of everyone else.

I'd like to see other options too, for, say Q/3, Q/2, 10, 15. This would
allow us to compromise on what people think is necessary, without being
restricted by your arbitrary choice of Q and 2Q. Could you add those to
your proposed resolution, so people can second all of them at the same
time and reduce the number of emails on -v...@?

> As the discussion in December also told us, we should vote on different
> options than just one, so I will also send in an amendment. My personal
> goal would be to end up with a vote having options similar to the ones
> pasted below as an example, but if someone feels like having a "Keep it
> like it is, no discusssion" is needed, I would accept such an amendment
> too. (Not that I think its neccessary, for me FD means that, but still).

I would like to have such an option as well.
-- 
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net   http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lu...@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Guilherme de S. Pastore]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 08:00:01PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> There is nothing else that good to use. *I* wouldnt want to write
> something like "take the amount of voters for the latest GR/DPL election
> to calculate Q".

Neither would I. I was just pointing out that saying "20 out of 1000 
should be easy" is only partially true, because it becomes "20 out of 
400" if you consider the number of developers actually participating in 
any kind of voting procedure.

It's not about creating a new number or basing the count on the last 
vote, it's just about taking this into account before ammending the 
constitution.

Cheers,

--
Guilherme de S. Pastore
gpast...@debian.org


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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Samstag, 21. März 2009, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> as per Constitution 4.1.3, I am proposing the following General
> Resolution.
>
> 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< -
>
> The Debian project hereby resolves that the copyright files of binary
> packages shipped in the distribution are not required to contain an
> accurate and up-to-date listing of copyright holders.
>
> 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< -
>
> I am looking for seconds.

seconded. Though I would appreciate if it would clarify that debian/copyright 
still needs to be present and list the licence and *should try to* list all 
authors.

And/but I'm confused now, can you really propose a GR proposal and immediatly 
look for seconds, isnt there a need for a discussion period first? (I thought 
so and thats why I've not seconded Jörgs "GR enhancement proposal"... but I'm 
too lazy to dig up policy now, sorry 'bout that.)

> If you need to understand the rationale, please read the thread on
> debian-devel with "Sponsorship requirements and copyright files" as
> title, especially...

actually, <87r60rgco4@anzu.internal.golden-gryphon.com> was what convinced 
me.

Quoting Manoj here:
 
>   The verbatim copy of the programs source code have the copyright
> notice, so we meet that. Breinging that into this discussion is a red
> herring, and derails discussion on what is required in  debian/copyright;
> nothing in the GPL ever requires a debian/copyright file at all.
>
>Trust me. Lots of people in the world distribute programs, and
> they often do not have debian/copyright files. 


Thinking about it, I also would want policy patches to vote upon. Or is that a 
bad idea?


regards,
Holger


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Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Russ Allbery]

Joerg Jaspert  writes:

> PROPOSAL START
> 
> General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
> Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
> to initiate one are too small.
>
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(2Q). [see §4.2(1)]
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.
>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]
>
> (Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).
> 
> PROPOSAL END

I agree that I would like to see a diff, ideally, but regardless,
seconded.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Question for DPL Candidates: Debian $$$

[Russ Allbery]

Neil McGovern  writes:

> Except I'm not sure this would be legal under non-profit law, unless
> you're very careful. There's an issue that funds can't be used to pay
> someone the equivilent of a 'wage' in this way.

US non-profits can hire employees, but I believe there are conflict of
interest limitations around the degree to which those employees can then
be involved in the governance of the non-profit.

> I would suggest asking for legal advice if you you want to persue this,

This is certainly good advice.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Constitutional issues in the wake of Lenny

[Russ Allbery]

Matthew Johnson  writes:

> 4. Option X is declared not to be in conflict with a foundation document (?)
> 5. Option X conflicts with a foundation document, but explicitly doesn't
>want to override the FD (?)

This is not a meaningful statement about a GR currently.  In order for
this to be a meaningful statement, we would have to amend the constitution
to create a person who is responsible for determining that such a conflict
exists.  Right now, there is no person who can make the above judgement,
so making it a distinct case isn't particularly useful.

> 6. Option X would appear that it might contradict an FD, but doesn't say
>which of 2-5 it is.

> My point of view would be that 3 requires 3:1, 4 does not and that votes
> of type 5 or 6 should not be allowed to run until they are clarified.

I agree with all of those statements except for 5, which I don't believe
exists.  5 is actually identical to 4 in our current system.

If, down the road, we create an officer responsible for ruling on
conflicts around Foundation Documents, then 5 could exist if the statement
in the GR was in conflict with their ruling.

-- 
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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Russ Allbery]

Josselin Mouette  writes:

> as per Constitution 4.1.3, I am proposing the following General
> Resolution.
>
> 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< -
>
> The Debian project hereby resolves that the copyright files of binary
> packages shipped in the distribution are not required to contain an
> accurate and up-to-date listing of copyright holders.

Can you please let us finish having a conversation before you turn the
issue into a confrontational vote?

Many of us are already trying to work through what the requirements are
and understand from what the current policy stems, including both Manoj
and I who on first glance agree with you, and I have seen no sign as yet
that we can't reach a mutually agreeable conclusion.  But people are
already freaking out about this, despite the fact that the conversation
has just started, and now you're proposing a GR when we have only had one
round of question and reply.

If we reach a clear, unbridgable point of disagreement where both sides
understand the motivating factors of the other side and still disagree,
then we can look at whether a GR is an appropriate resolution.  But right
now, this is harmfully premature.

-- 
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Re: All candidates: Membership procedures

[Martin Meredith]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:34:57AM +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> la, 2009-03-21 kello 01:42 +, Steve McIntyre kirjoitti:
> > P.S. Damn, just read Zack's answer and we don't seem to differ very
> > much. Oh well... :-)
> 
> Dear Zack McIntyre, Steve Claes, and Luk Zacchiroli,
> 
> What's your opinion on membership procedures?
> 
> Last year there were some rough proposals for how to change the
> membership procedures. It started with Joerg's proposal, but other
> people suggested their own kinds of changes, including me. I feel that
> my approach and Joerg's are pretty much diametrically opposed. What's
> your opinion? Do you feel the current NM process works well and almost
> always selects for the kind of people that are really great for Debian? 
> Would some other kind of process work better? What kind of membership
> process would you like to see in Debian in, say, a year from now? Please
> feel free to dream, there's no point in being too constricted by reality
> and practical considerations.

I'd also be interested in hearing the response to this, as it would be one of 
the key points that would decide where my vote went


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Re: Amendment: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl]

Hi!

Joerg Jaspert schrieb:

> PROPOSAL START
> 
> General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
> Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
> to initiate one are too small.
> 
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(Q). [see §4.2(1)]
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.
>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]
> 
> (Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).
> 
> PROPOSAL END

I hereby second the proposal quoted above.


Best regards,
  Alexander



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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Patrick Schoenfeld]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 08:36:24PM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> On 2009-03-21 19:20 (+0100), Josselin Mouette wrote:
> 
> > If you need to understand the rationale, please read the thread on
> > debian-devel with "Sponsorship requirements and copyright files" as
> > title, especially the 87wsajgefj@vorlon.ganneff.de and
> > 87mybehqhx@vorlon.ganneff.de postings.
> 
> And for additional info:
> 
> http://glandium.org/blog/?p=256

Its so easy to give his own opinion more weight by using extortion as a
method. I'm very sad. Even if I would agree with any of you on the
copyright topic, I couldn't ever agree with this behaviour.

Regards,
Patrick


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Re: Question for DPL Candidates: sponsorship of Debian development by companies?

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 21/03/09 at 02:34 +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> >Zack wrote that no one already contributing to Debian should be
> >authorized to pick bounties offered by Debian directly. Would you
> >encourage a similar position for bounties offered as part of the Google
> >Summer of Code, for example?
> 
> No. Who is picked in the end should depend on the terms of the scheme
> involved and on the quality of the particular projects. In the
> specific example of the GSoC, I'm much more interested in the
> likelihood of the student project to succeed than in who the student
> is.

That's interesting, especially with your role of GSOC admin for Debian.

Let's imagine that a random company contacted you (as DPL) and said:
"I'll give you enough money to pay 10 DDs during 2 months to work on
Debian ; you are free to choose who gets the jobs, and what people will
work on". 
It's not totally unrealistic: it's what Google does with GSOC (except
that they impose that those who get the job are students, and that they
reserve the right to reject specific projects/students).

What would be your position?
-- 
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net   http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lu...@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Re: Amendment: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Patrick Schoenfeld]

Hi,

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 03:49:02PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> PROPOSAL START
> 
> General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
> Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
> to initiate one are too small.
> 
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(Q). [see §4.2(1)]
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.
>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]
> 
> (Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).
> 
> PROPOSAL END

I hereby second the before standing proposal. With some kind of sadness,
because if we wouldn't waste that much time on useless proposals
that I consider this a problem, I wouldn't.

Best Regards,
Patrick


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Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Joerg Jaspert]

> There are some that do not take part in the discussions but vote, there 
> are those who do not even follow debian-vote because they do not feel it 
> is worth the effort, and those that are simply not active at all. I do 
> not have the numbers right now, but IIRC we have had an average of 300 
> to 400 votes in the most controversial disputes recently. In other 
> words, considering the seconds requirement from the 1000-something DDs 
> we count formally is fiction, when less than half of them actually
> participate in the decision process.

There is nothing else that good to use. *I* wouldnt want to write
something like "take the amount of voters for the latest GR/DPL election
to calculate Q". That would be sick. And using the official DD count
does work for all the other parts too, so I see no reason to define
something special now, in fear of "people wont vote".


-- 
bye, Joerg
NM-fun:
The Debian project,  at least for me,  is not a joke, [...]


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Re: GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Teemu Likonen]

On 2009-03-21 19:20 (+0100), Josselin Mouette wrote:

> If you need to understand the rationale, please read the thread on
> debian-devel with "Sponsorship requirements and copyright files" as
> title, especially the 87wsajgefj@vorlon.ganneff.de and
> 87mybehqhx@vorlon.ganneff.de postings.

And for additional info:

http://glandium.org/blog/?p=256


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GR proposal: Do not require listing of copyright holders

[Josselin Mouette]

Hi,

as per Constitution 4.1.3, I am proposing the following General
Resolution.

8< - 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< -

The Debian project hereby resolves that the copyright files of binary
packages shipped in the distribution are not required to contain an
accurate and up-to-date listing of copyright holders.

8< - 8< - 8< - 8< - 8< -

I am looking for seconds.

If you need to understand the rationale, please read the thread on
debian-devel with "Sponsorship requirements and copyright files" as
title, especially the 87wsajgefj@vorlon.ganneff.de and
87mybehqhx@vorlon.ganneff.de postings.

-- 
 .''`.  Debian 5.0 "Lenny" has been released!
: :' :
`. `'   Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told
  `-me that if you don't install Lenny, he'd melt your brain.


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Re: Amendment: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Bernd Zeimetz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> and here is the promised amendment which will require a maximum of
> floor(Q) developers to second a GR.
> 
> PROPOSAL START
> 
> General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
> Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
> to initiate one are too small.
> 
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(Q). [see §4.2(1)]
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.
>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]
> 
> (Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).
> 
> PROPOSAL END
> 
> Practical changes: Taking the definitions of the latest GR we had,
> 
>  Current Developer Count = 1018
>  Q ( sqrt(#devel) / 2 ) = 15.9530561335438
>  K min(5, Q )   = 5
>  Quorum  (3 x Q )   = 47.8591684006314
> 
> this will mean that future GRs would need 15 other people to support
> your idea.
> 

Seconded.


- --
 Bernd Zeimetz   Debian GNU/Linux Developer
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Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Guilherme de S. Pastore]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 03:47:57PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> I have felt for some time that the low requirement for seconds on General
> Resolutions is something that should be fixed. Currently it needs 5
> supporters to get any idea laid before every Debian Developer to vote
> on. While this small number was a good thing at the time Debian was
> smaller, I think it is no longer the case.

Perfectly agree.

> While one could go and define another arbitary number, like 10 or 15 or
> whatever, I propose to move this to something that is dependent on the
> actual number of Developers, as defined by the secretary, and to
> increase its value from the current 5 to something higher. My personal
> goal is 2Q there, which would mean 30 supporters. If you can't find 30
> supporters, out of 1000 Developers, your idea is most probably not worth
> taking up time of everyone else.

I think this is a problem, though. Not that debating over an arbitrary 
number is a good idea, but the number of developers as used for quorum 
calculation is not a good reference, IMHO, for the sheer fact that the 
DDs actually voting make up a rather small fraction of the total.

There are some that do not take part in the discussions but vote, there 
are those who do not even follow debian-vote because they do not feel it 
is worth the effort, and those that are simply not active at all. I do 
not have the numbers right now, but IIRC we have had an average of 300 
to 400 votes in the most controversial disputes recently. In other 
words, considering the seconds requirement from the 1000-something DDs 
we count formally is fiction, when less than half of them actually
participate in the decision process.

--
Guilherme de S. Pastore
gpast...@debian.org


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Re: Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 03:47:57PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> PROPOSAL START
> 
> General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
> Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
> to initiate one are too small.
> 
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(2Q). [see §4.2(1)]
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.
>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]
> 
> (Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).
> 
> PROPOSAL END

It would be nice if this also included the proposed changes to the
constitution as a diff.


Kurt


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Re: Amendment: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Charles Plessy]

Le Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:04:31AM +0900, Charles Plessy a écrit :
> Le Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 03:49:02PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
> >  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> > as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> > period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> > developers to sponsor the resolution.
> 
> That makes an interesting race condition with Bill's overriding GR…

Dear all, dear Joerg,

I present my apologise and ask you to forgive me this post. There are many
discussions going in all directions and I it frustrates me strongly, but I
should have keept my head cold and my hands far from the keyboard. 

Have a nice week-end,

-- 
Charles


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Re: Amendment: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Charles Plessy]

Le Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 03:49:02PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.

That makes an interesting race condition with Bill's overriding GR…

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Amendment: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Matthew Johnson]

On Sat Mar 21 15:49, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
 
> PROPOSAL START
> 
> General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
> Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
> to initiate one are too small.
> 
> Therefore the Debian project resolves that
>  a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
> a resolution, but floor(Q). [see §4.2(1)]
>  b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
> as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
> period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
> developers to sponsor the resolution.
>  c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]
> 
> (Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).
> 
> PROPOSAL END

I second this proposal

-- 
Matthew Johnson


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Amendment: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Joerg Jaspert]

Hi,

and here is the promised amendment which will require a maximum of
floor(Q) developers to second a GR.

PROPOSAL START

General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
to initiate one are too small.

Therefore the Debian project resolves that
 a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
a resolution, but floor(Q). [see §4.2(1)]
 b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
developers to sponsor the resolution.
 c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]

(Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).

PROPOSAL END

Practical changes: Taking the definitions of the latest GR we had,

 Current Developer Count = 1018
 Q ( sqrt(#devel) / 2 ) = 15.9530561335438
 K min(5, Q )   = 5
 Quorum  (3 x Q )   = 47.8591684006314

this will mean that future GRs would need 15 other people to support
your idea.

-- 
bye, Joerg
Could you please add me to the mirr...@debian.org alias. I'm not receiving
enough spam.
  -- Andrew Pollock


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Proposal: Enhance requirements for General resolutions

[Joerg Jaspert]

Hi,

I have felt for some time that the low requirement for seconds on General
Resolutions is something that should be fixed. Currently it needs 5
supporters to get any idea laid before every Debian Developer to vote
on. While this small number was a good thing at the time Debian was
smaller, I think it is no longer the case. We currently have over 1000
Developers, and even if not everyone is active all the time, there
should be a little higher barrier before all of them have to deal with
something, effectively taking away time from their usual Debian work.

While one could go and define another arbitary number, like 10 or 15 or
whatever, I propose to move this to something that is dependent on the
actual number of Developers, as defined by the secretary, and to
increase its value from the current 5 to something higher. My personal
goal is 2Q there, which would mean 30 supporters. If you can't find 30
supporters, out of 1000 Developers, your idea is most probably not worth
taking up time of everyone else.

Various IRC discussions and the discussion on debian-project in December
told me that others feel similar. So here is a proposal.

As the discussion in December also told us, we should vote on different
options than just one, so I will also send in an amendment. My personal
goal would be to end up with a vote having options similar to the ones
pasted below as an example, but if someone feels like having a "Keep it
like it is, no discusssion" is needed, I would accept such an amendment
too. (Not that I think its neccessary, for me FD means that, but still).

- - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[   ] Choice 1: Enhance seconders to 2Q [3:1]
[   ] Choice 2: Enhance seconders to Q [3:1]
[   ] Choice 3: Further Discussion
- - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

As this will change the constitution it will need a 3:1 to win. (see
Constitution 4.1.2)

Of course, this being a proposal to enhance the required seconds, I
would love if many people do second this, even if we might be past the
currently needed limit already. The more the better. :)

PROPOSAL START

General Resolutions are an important framework within the Debian
Project. Yet, in a project the size of Debian, the current requirements
to initiate one are too small.

Therefore the Debian project resolves that
 a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor
a resolution, but floor(2Q). [see §4.2(1)]
 b) Delaying a decision of a Delegate or the DPL [§4.2(2.2)],
as well as resolutions against a shortening of discussion/voting
period or to overwrite a TC decision [§4.2(2.3)] requires floor(Q)
developers to sponsor the resolution.
 c) the definition of K gets erased from the constitution. [§4.2(7)]

(Numbers in brackets are references to sections in the constitution).

PROPOSAL END

Practical changes: Taking the definitions of the latest GR we had,

 Current Developer Count = 1018
 Q ( sqrt(#devel) / 2 ) = 15.9530561335438
 K min(5, Q )   = 5
 Quorum  (3 x Q )   = 47.8591684006314

this will mean that future GRs would need 30 other people to support
your idea. While that does seem a lot (6times more than now),
considering that a GR affects more than 1000 official Developers and
uncounted amounts of other people doing work for Debian, I think its not
too much. Especially as point b only requires 15 people, 3 times the
amount than now, in case there is a disagreement with the DPL, TC or
a Delegate.

-- 
bye, Joerg
* libpng2 no libpng3 no why ? because no yes no yes no yes bullshit no yes
  no yes no yes stop ? no when someday beep beep beep beep (Closes: #157011)
 -- Christian Marillat   Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:41:58 +0200


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Re: Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

[Charles Plessy]

Le Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:04:59PM +, Steve McIntyre a écrit :
> 
> I can also see that you have your own menu/desktop topic there too
> that I expect you'll want to raise. What are your plans for that?
> 
> [1] http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

Hi Steve,

First I plan to produce a document that presents the proposal whith avoiding
misunderstandings, and to present it when the issues on top of the list will
have been solved. I will not jump the queue.

Then the first issue is programmatic: the Debian Menu is managed by some
software written in C, and I am not a C programmer. So the goal of the kick-off
discussion will not only be to get a broad consensus that using the fd.o format
is good, but also to convince somebody to write the code. I think that the main
argument for the proposal is that after swithching to a widespread format, we
can submit Upstream the fd.o menu entries that can be used as is (and I really
think that it will be the majority), which would be a nice contribution from
Debian to the communauty, and would also reduce the complexity of our packages
and in the end reduce our workload (especially now that we have triggers).

Then goes the hard work: bug reporting, acceptance of the switch by DDs,
writing a Lintian check, submitting entries in Upstream BTSes, subitting
patches in our BTS, commiting patches in some VCSes,… I hope that by the time
all of this is started, the discussions on the quality of our archive will have
beared fruits and that we will be less shy removing packages that are obviously
unmaintained and that nowbody wants to adopt.

Last year I reviewed the debtags of ~100 packages in one month and a half; this
makes me confident that if I have a few monthes plus some help, I can fuel
perseverance and get the transition done.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Constitutional issues in the wake of Lenny

[Matthew Johnson]

This seems to have stalled a bit, so trying to get bark on track here.

There seems to be several sorts of vote here:

1. Option X conforms to a foundation document (clearly not 3:1)
2. Option X changes a foundation document (clearly 3:1)
3. Option X overrides a foundation document, possibly temporarily (?)
4. Option X is declared not to be in conflict with a foundation document (?)
5. Option X conflicts with a foundation document, but explicitly doesn't
   want to override the FD (?)
6. Option X would appear that it might contradict an FD, but doesn't say
   which of 2-5 it is.

1. and 2. are what we wish every vote were like.

3. is things like "we agree that the kernel modules aren't free, but
we'll ship them anyway" or "we'll ship them for this release".

4. is things like "we think that firmware can be its own source, so
shipping blobs is fine"

On Mon Mar 16 23:06, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

> If you have an option saying "Allow Lenny to release with
> firmware blobs.  This does not override the DFSG", I can only
> see that make sense if it really means: "firmware blobs are not a
> DFSG violation", and the "Lenny" part doesn't make sense.

This would be 5, and as you say, I don't think it makes much sense.

My point of view would be that 3 requires 3:1, 4 does not and that votes
of type 5 or 6 should not be allowed to run until they are clarified.

Incidentally, I'm not intending to answer the question here of whether
we can release with blobs or dfsg violations, but what the vote about
this should look like.

-- 
Matthew Johnson


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Re: Question to Stefano, Steve and Luk about the organisation into packaging teams.

[Patrick Schoenfeld]

Hi,

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 01:42:11AM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 01:19:27PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> >Dear Stefano, Steve and Luk,
> 
> Hi again Charles!
> 
> >I like a lot Stefano's statement about collaborative maintainance:
> >"Collaborative maintenance should not be mandatory (we do have several very
> >efficient one-man-band developers), but should be our default".
> >
> >First of all, I would be interested to know if it is a point of divergence
> >between the candidates. Then, if there is interest for such a discussion, I
> >would like to encourage you to develop your ideas on this subject, especially
> >on what you can do as a DPL or DPL assistant. 
> 
> I'm very much a fan of people working together on their packages, but
> I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to make teams the default. If

I think for the vast majority of packages in our archive this would
simply be overkill. But I'm interested what you think about the
following:

In Debian we have some packages that are either by default on every
system or are commonly expected to be found on Debian systems. Such
tools could be called the core of our system, because they are most
commonly used on a Debian system. Such packages include coreutils, gzip,
grep, hostname, initscripts, obviously all the tools that make up a
Debian system like dpkg, at, cron and some more. Short said: More or
less all packages with a priority of Standard or higher, although one
would need to think about this scope wrt to the following proposal.

Some of these packages are very well maintained and others.. well,
bug numbers sometimes speak for themselves. For these packages we have
that cool text on the PTS pages: "The package is of priority standard
or higher, you should really find some co-maintainers." which brought
me on this at all. What I thought about when I read that is: "HaHaHa,
we are kidding on us own, because we recommend something to us, what
should actually be the default (for this type of packages).
Thats why I thought it would eventually be a good idea to form a core
team, meaning a team of a bunch of people (10-20?), with wide-spread
knowledge and known to have enough free time (e.g. people who have > 50
packages and aren't able to keep up with the bug reports in their own
packages wouldn't qualify) that gets the job to (co-)maintain all these
packages that are very important to us. It doesn't mean that the
existing maintainers are taken away the packages, because they could
still stay the maintainers, but obviously some of these packages are not
easily maintainable by one person.

What do you think about such a proposal?

Best Regards,
Patrick


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Re: Question for DPL Candidates: Debian $$$

[Neil McGovern]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:50:52AM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> Other potential usages of Debian moneys are bounties, to which I'm not
> opposed in principle. However, they should obey to very specific
> rules. The first one is that no one already contributing to Debian
> should be authorized to pick them up (no dunc-tank 2). The second one
> is that they should be used only for tasks that we have a history of
> not being able to fulfill by ourselves, and that are considered
> blocking for some needed Project improvements.
> 

Except I'm not sure this would be legal under non-profit law, unless
you're very careful. There's an issue that funds can't be used to pay
someone the equivilent of a 'wage' in this way.
Donations must go into a central pot, and can't be specified for bounty
#263 for example.

I would suggest asking for legal advice if you you want to persue this,
I can try and dig out the previous stuff we got as well.

Neil
-- 
 bah Germans. You just put 100 DDs in one country and then they all
become friends of each other.


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All candidates: Membership procedures

[Lars Wirzenius]

la, 2009-03-21 kello 01:42 +, Steve McIntyre kirjoitti:
> P.S. Damn, just read Zack's answer and we don't seem to differ very
> much. Oh well... :-)

Dear Zack McIntyre, Steve Claes, and Luk Zacchiroli,

What's your opinion on membership procedures?

Last year there were some rough proposals for how to change the
membership procedures. It started with Joerg's proposal, but other
people suggested their own kinds of changes, including me. I feel that
my approach and Joerg's are pretty much diametrically opposed. What's
your opinion? Do you feel the current NM process works well and almost
always selects for the kind of people that are really great for Debian? 
Would some other kind of process work better? What kind of membership
process would you like to see in Debian in, say, a year from now? Please
feel free to dream, there's no point in being too constricted by reality
and practical considerations.



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