GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
[ Draft GR text below, look for -. M-F-T set to -vote. ]
Dear Debian project,
in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming
non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one.
Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last
forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic.
There are various intertwined topics here: from which levels of project
membership we want, to the evergreen topic of NM reform. They are all
valuable and important, but what I'm trying to do here is to be
modular. Take one decision at a time, instead of trying to fix all at
once (as we risk to never converge on that), and without posing
artificial barriers to subsequent, hopefully orthogonal, changes.
Of all those topics, one topic *might* have consensus already: accepting
as DDs contributors which have contributed a lot to Debian doing
non-packaging work, which intend to continue doing so, and which are
ready to uphold our Foundation Documents. My feeling of consensus on
that builds upon: in person feedback, private mails, and a growing
number of requests on that direction hitting Front Desk (which FD has
kindly shared with me). I do have an impression of consensus, but I
don't have any quantitative evidence. As a discussion alone cannot fix
that, here is the draft GR I'm hereby introducing:
---
The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
quality assurance, etc.
The Debian project acknowledges that:
* To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
* Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
* Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
Debian infrastructure.
---
Some few more comments are in order:
- Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would
appreciate them nonetheless.
- Related past history is http://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002.
This GR is narrower in scope and aims at verifying project consensus
before proceeding to implementation.
- At the same time, the text does not mandate a specific implementation.
This is on purpose since:
- Leaving out implementation details, it will be easier to change
project membership procedures later on.
- DAM is authoritative on membership procedures and should be trusted
on these matters. I do have an idea of how the process will look
like (i.e. like NM, but swifter, without the packaging part) and
I'm sure DAM will be happy to comment on that.
- I've done some background study before posting this. In particular
I've shared the text with FD and DAM, as the GR outcome will directly
impact their work. They have raised no specific objection to any
possible outcome of the GR in its present form. I've also shared the
text with the secretary. While formal ruling can be done only on an
actual ballot, he doesn't consider the above text to be in need of 3:1
majority.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
--- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Seconded. Christoph -- c...@df7cb.de | http://www.df7cb.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On 14.09.10 10:53, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: Of all those topics, one topic *might* have consensus already: accepting as DDs contributors which have contributed a lot to Debian doing non-packaging work, which intend to continue doing so, and which are ready to uphold our Foundation Documents. My feeling of consensus on that builds upon: in person feedback, private mails, and a growing number of requests on that direction hitting Front Desk (which FD has kindly shared with me). I do have an impression of consensus, but I don't have any quantitative evidence. As a discussion alone cannot fix that, here is the draft GR I'm hereby introducing: I don't understand the procedure. You are already empowered to do it: 8.1 The Project Leader's Delegates: 1. [...] 2. may make certain decisions which the Leader may not make directly, including approving or expelling Developers or *designating people as Developers who do not maintain packages*. This is to avoid concentration of power, particularly over membership as a Developer, in the hands of the Project Leader. So you are already free to do it by delegating. A GR would be used to overrule your decision, but, as you already noted, there is already a general consensus on the issue. ciao cate PS: and a personal comment. I think the entire issue is pure technical: who and how to choice the non-maintainer developers, the account settings and machine accesses, the designation, etc. But in Debian style we are writting too much (and in a philosophical level). The decision could do a title on the news, but in reality the real and practical effects are IMHO minimal. ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c8f40be.9050...@debian.org
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 à 17:53 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit : --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Seconded. Sylvestre -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1284454975.6741.10753.ca...@korcula.inria.fr
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 à 17:53 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit : --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Seconded. Sylvestre signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Le Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit : Of all those topics, one topic *might* have consensus already: accepting as DDs contributors which have contributed a lot to Debian doing non-packaging work, which intend to continue doing so, and which are ready to uphold our Foundation Documents. Hi Stefano, I agree with the above, accepting as DDs contributors who do not maintain packages, but your proposal is different: it establishes a new class of project members, who differ by not having upload rights. I suppose that the goal is to avoid disruptive NMUs and damage to our infrastructure in case their GPG key is compromised. But do you think that this is more likely to happen with developers who do not maintain packages, compared with developers who do? I wonder why not simply inviting the Debian Account Managers to accept the long term contributors as DDs, even if they to not maintain packages? Would an amendement be welcome? Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914095213.ga24...@merveille.plessy.net
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Am Dienstag, den 14.09.2010, 17:53 +0900 schrieb Stefano Zacchiroli: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Some few more comments are in order: - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would appreciate them nonetheless. Seconded. Best regards, Manuel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Stefano Zacchiroli scrisse: The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. As we still remember the big on terminology thread[0] and we don't want here to create more confusion nor to start the big renaming race, I think it will be better to leave terminology out of this GR, as this will introduce even more ambiguity: aren't sponsored packagers debian contributors(lowercase) too? I'd thus propose not to call them Debian Contributors (DC) now, and let NM/DAM team pick an appropriate name when reforming the procedures. Ciao, Luca [0] http://lists.debian.org/4c2e569b.9030...@debian.org -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Luca Bruno (kaeso) : :' : The Universal O.S.| lucab (AT) debian.org `. `'` | GPG Key ID: 3BFB9FB3 `- http://www.debian.org | Debian GNU/Linux Developer pgpucUICQ55KC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Re: Giacomo A. Catenazzi 2010-09-14 4c8f40be.9050...@debian.org I don't understand the procedure. You are already empowered to do it: 8.1 The Project Leader's Delegates: 1. [...] 2. may make certain decisions which the Leader may not make directly, including approving or expelling Developers or *designating people as Developers who do not maintain packages*. This is to avoid concentration of power, particularly over membership as a Developer, in the hands of the Project Leader. Also: 3. Individual Developers 3.2. Composition and appointment 1. Developers are volunteers who agree to further the aims of the Project insofar as they participate in it, and who maintain package(s) for the Project or do other work which the Project Leader's Delegate(s) consider worthwhile. So you are already free to do it by delegating. A GR would be used to overrule your decision, but, as you already noted, there is already a general consensus on the issue. Yes. The GR just asks the project to embrace the idea. Last time, we tried to do something in this direction, it ended up unpleasantly. (Which was also our fault.) The decision could do a title on the news, but in reality the real and practical effects are IMHO minimal. Let's hope so :) Christoph -- c...@df7cb.de | http://www.df7cb.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Giacomo A. Catenazzi c...@debian.org So you are already free to do it by delegating. A GR would be used to overrule your decision, but, as you already noted, there is already a general consensus on the issue. Equally, the DPL is empowered to start a GR to do this. I'm very happy to see a DPL checking that there really is consensus. We don't have a great history of GRs overruling decisions, do we? Regards, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914102601.39a98f7...@nail.towers.org.uk
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Re: Luca Bruno 2010-09-14 20100914120120.c0d3f45b.lu...@debian.org As we still remember the big on terminology thread[0] and we don't want here to create more confusion nor to start the big renaming race, I think it will be better to leave terminology out of this GR, as this will introduce even more ambiguity: aren't sponsored packagers debian contributors(lowercase) too? Any name will be generic to some extend, unless it is long and ugly. I'd thus propose not to call them Debian Contributors (DC) now, and let NM/DAM team pick an appropriate name when reforming the procedures. The idea was discussed, and that's the name we came up with. If someone has a better idea, please tell us, and I'm sure zack will update the proposal. Christoph -- c...@df7cb.de | http://www.df7cb.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Seconded. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On ti, 2010-09-14 at 17:53 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). I support Zack's proposal, but with a caveat. I do not like the introduction of yet another class of person developing Debian. I propose we call everyone with voting rights in Debian a Debian Developer (development not being restricted to coding and packaging). Voting, not uploads, being the fundamental right of a member of the project, and the most important reward we can give for someone who works for Debian. I also feel we don't need to implement a technical barrier against uploading. I don't think technical skills are the relevant thing when it comes to deciding whether someone should be allowed to upload or not. The important thing is whether we trust them or not. If we don't trust them, they shouldn't be any kind of member in the project. If we do, we should trust them to not intentionally make a mess. Mistakes are not that important: everyone makes mistakes, and we need to be able to recover from them anyway. But this is perhaps a bit radical of an opinion in Debian right now. (I was under the impression there was a hypothetical path to becoming a DD for people who do not want to do packaging work. I am sure I heard someone say they had gone through that path years ago, but perhaps I remember wrongly.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1284461384.2573.26.ca...@havelock
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Re: Lars Wirzenius 2010-09-14 1284461384.2573.26.ca...@havelock I do not like the introduction of yet another class of person developing Debian. I propose we call everyone with voting rights in Debian a Debian Developer (development not being restricted to coding and packaging). We are calling everyone Debian Developer (cf. the constitution). DCs are a subset of DDs. We realize that we probably need a handy expression for DD with upload rights [1], but we don't have one yet. (Ideas?) [1] a I'm a DM, will you sponsor my new package? b no, I'm a DC c yes, I can, I'm a DD with upload rights but that doesn't have a catchy name yet Voting, not uploads, being the fundamental right of a member of the project, and the most important reward we can give for someone who works for Debian. I see membership as such more important. Lately, there's only been the DPL votes and few GRs. The thing people care about is being part of the project, as an acknowledgement for the work they are doing (and all the fame and glory of @debian.org addresses). Anyway, both are implemented here. I also feel we don't need to implement a technical barrier against uploading. I don't think technical skills are the relevant thing when it comes to deciding whether someone should be allowed to upload or not. The important thing is whether we trust them or not. If we don't trust them, they shouldn't be any kind of member in the project. If we do, we should trust them to not intentionally make a mess. Mistakes are not that important: everyone makes mistakes, and we need to be able to recover from them anyway. But this is perhaps a bit radical of an opinion in Debian right now. I do agree with the idea, but it opens up gray areas. There will be DCs who maintain some (maybe documentation-only?) packages, and will become DM for these. With the no-difference idea, it is unclear where the line to classic DD is. And voila, you end up being a fully uploading DD who has skipped TS in the NM process. It's probably possible to do, but it has to be well-thought. Making TS a formal (and technical) prerequisite to the uploading part cuts a clear line. (I was under the impression there was a hypothetical path to becoming a DD for people who do not want to do packaging work. I am sure I heard someone say they had gone through that path years ago, but perhaps I remember wrongly.) See cate's mail. Christoph -- c...@df7cb.de | http://www.df7cb.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Am Dienstag 14 September 2010, 10:53:46 schrieb Stefano Zacchiroli: [ Draft GR text below, look for -. M-F-T set to -vote. ] Dear Debian project, in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one. Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic. Thank you for this approach. Working mainly for a much smaller debian-based distribution for some years i have learned how important it is to have people other than the coders/developers/packagers do the work that is needed to be able to actualy bring your product to the masses in the best possible way. I am on standby for becoming a proud member of the family. regards Ferdinand Thommes Fellow of FSFE LinuxTag e.V. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201009141304.02509.de...@sidux.com
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: [ Draft GR text below, look for -. M-F-T set to -vote. ] Dear Debian project, in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one. Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic. There are various intertwined topics here: from which levels of project membership we want, to the evergreen topic of NM reform. They are all valuable and important, but what I'm trying to do here is to be modular. Take one decision at a time, instead of trying to fix all at once (as we risk to never converge on that), and without posing artificial barriers to subsequent, hopefully orthogonal, changes. Of all those topics, one topic *might* have consensus already: accepting as DDs contributors which have contributed a lot to Debian doing non-packaging work, which intend to continue doing so, and which are ready to uphold our Foundation Documents. My feeling of consensus on that builds upon: in person feedback, private mails, and a growing number of requests on that direction hitting Front Desk (which FD has kindly shared with me). I do have an impression of consensus, but I don't have any quantitative evidence. As a discussion alone cannot fix that, here is the draft GR I'm hereby introducing: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Some few more comments are in order: - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would appreciate them nonetheless. - Related past history is http://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002. This GR is narrower in scope and aims at verifying project consensus before proceeding to implementation. - At the same time, the text does not mandate a specific implementation. This is on purpose since: - Leaving out implementation details, it will be easier to change project membership procedures later on. - DAM is authoritative on membership procedures and should be trusted on these matters. I do have an idea of how the process will look like (i.e. like NM, but swifter, without the packaging part) and I'm sure DAM will be happy to comment on that. - I've done some background study before posting this. In particular I've shared the text with FD and DAM, as the GR outcome will directly impact their work. They have raised no specific objection to any possible outcome of the GR in its present form. I've also shared the text with the secretary. While formal ruling can be done only on an actual ballot, he doesn't consider the above text to be in need of 3:1 majority. I second this to allow people who write documentation, translate various software and contribute to the project in ways other than packaging to be official members of the project. Thanks for doing this. Kumar -- What you end up with, after running an operating system concept through these many marketing coffee filters, is something not unlike plain hot water. (By Matt Welsh) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On ti, 2010-09-14 at 13:14 +0200, Christoph Berg wrote: Re: Lars Wirzenius 2010-09-14 1284461384.2573.26.ca...@havelock I do not like the introduction of yet another class of person developing Debian. I propose we call everyone with voting rights in Debian a Debian Developer (development not being restricted to coding and packaging). We are calling everyone Debian Developer (cf. the constitution). DCs are a subset of DDs. We realize that we probably need a handy expression for DD with upload rights [1], but we don't have one yet. (Ideas?) Could we please instead not invent new names and call ourselves DD with upload rights and DD without upload rights? We already have a problem with terminology for various kinds of memberships. Let's not make it worse. I do agree with the idea, but it opens up gray areas. There will be DCs who maintain some (maybe documentation-only?) packages, and will become DM for these. With the no-difference idea, it is unclear where the line to classic DD is. And voila, you end up being a fully uploading DD who has skipped TS in the NM process. It's probably possible to do, but it has to be well-thought. Making TS a formal (and technical) prerequisite to the uploading part cuts a clear line. I re-iterate that I think the important distinction is one of trust. Not skills. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1284464484.2573.39.ca...@havelock
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Hi! * Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org [2010-09-14 10:53:46 CEST]: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Wholeheartly seconed, for all the longstanding website translators. Rhonda -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJMj1aRAAoJEDH85+fdB5RhbNIH/A50j6OT5HCL8zhkpHZ4rbf7 +6ZhLC6g7wnhS8RwBbQKxUdIZbmPeQf49CsaEoz1xcrp+oVQe56F+ZFKz9sIH/hH dcPUverXUrmyMU6k9FO87dcoJbLmBCJUK8yA6dL4ENupmaZLcen9gRLa2aDfic6q X6FnHIacUpH5KLdEAOhLIgZP5OBs2VpxBLe8G7KuzWmwoiZfJot8AQUSWxx3X9nF UalFpFHX9I6SmJWrHZVCiVbzI1YWGOBpbG0iTcrkTVQ+S8R9PIVsOo61kX9H3HYt h8xSHha48x3C7h36Guhqj3AM0L1+mlxPGxM/nGoqCWtYIBoYKKCoJhASdd+fmuI= =nwr9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914110432.ga7...@anguilla.debian.or.at
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 09/14/2010 10:53 AM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Seconded! - -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJMj4YrAAoJEOs2Fxpv+UNf1qUP/2EI8m+A4kfzQj0WDk3hWpFn vdXukhev7G2I6RtaJB/7lQAbkaJwUKh2qdB2Z0E7UbUDWCcpK5BN7Eq7aFHwPiic 0hsXqqFLBbkrrp6fNbq5e+MEVTCXYqJsuJju0xQZiWZVZVfa98XHg0u+QViq2fad rs03zg/LUB8t1CsEQRB/0cv3re5V6MSRGQsElOWLqgp2WZOALl3d4pAIt6IJLmkE 99V/ZwlBPgAhw7PQXx6v0XWPhjkFEJ3jGO9FC1tp7QRZ4+LBCtqhSU2obl7qdEb+ nYRjicWlDLsKIoCOnIQnJd9j5/NwHnVXQbE3rFUYvRiWpuUHV4GiabhDs3UFzdzN S3/Y6S/leYqe45OgA/U+3/LD//Zte9W7WhldXpYSErTqBI1+7VZ2N2CsrbKtsZ15 UKBNo9fMfR1StGX6Gi3Ed8VdtO4P+m5wS7o7beTyzrXq5pzDWQdw8o1SqlcPASjx iXq7LluDuqXCD8gQT+eRrPOsIhHLzisGdc6lOvYNOgWkLiN9oD/Xx8vnQXpNvEwS xS4OaD0/RsZL6z6CL0H8qBZnKQe44klR/TkOfZutiIOjW5Ke6wRGcUHzCP4sOfRc H6u7xhrJKKEYiWJbgUeU0bzF2HV39gbCQhk+cvfuqRUDXPIhqTGBhGqgonRvyhHb 1HytnO8YbGIdAU5iMmdA =PWu7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c8f8631.9020...@bzed.de
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:53:46 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org wrote: ... * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. to become or if you prefer: of becoming - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would appreciate them nonetheless. Seconded. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND pgpNvD6uNKL7w.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On 17:53 Tue 14 Sep , Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Some few more comments are in order: - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would appreciate them nonetheless. - Related past history is http://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002. This GR is narrower in scope and aims at verifying project consensus before proceeding to implementation. - At the same time, the text does not mandate a specific implementation. This is on purpose since: - Leaving out implementation details, it will be easier to change project membership procedures later on. - DAM is authoritative on membership procedures and should be trusted on these matters. I do have an idea of how the process will look like (i.e. like NM, but swifter, without the packaging part) and I'm sure DAM will be happy to comment on that. - I've done some background study before posting this. In particular I've shared the text with FD and DAM, as the GR outcome will directly impact their work. They have raised no specific objection to any possible outcome of the GR in its present form. I've also shared the text with the secretary. While formal ruling can be done only on an actual ballot, he doesn't consider the above text to be in need of 3:1 majority. Seconded. -- Xavier Oswald xosw...@debian.org GNU/Linux Debian Developer - http://www.debian.org/ GPG key ID: 0x464B8DE3 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On 12238 March 1977, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Seconded. -- bye, Joerg liw we have release cycles, that's why it takes so long to get a release out; if we had release race cars, things would go a lot faster pgpZlgfMjRxNr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Stefano Zacchiroli dijo [Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900]: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- I'll gladly second that. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Hi, While I support welcoming non-packaging contributors as project members, I am concerned that we are creating the concept of second-class DDs (or at least, that it will be communicated like that). I see two different ways to avoid that: [A] Avoid giving DDs without upload rights any special name or title (like Debian Contributors). Their official title should be Debian Developers, and they should only be special-cased in the documents where the distinction between DDs with upload rights and DDs without upload rights is important. [B] Give everybody upload rights anyway. If we trust them to influence the project's decisions through voting, we should probably trust them to do the right thing and not upload packages when they don't feel qualified to. After all, I am a DD, I have the technical power to make changes to eglibc and upload it, but I should probably not do that. Why am I treated differently from DCs in that regard? Of course, we have a problem with security, and it's probably not very reasonable to have 1000 DDs able to upload every package, and connect to every project machine. So I think that we could use this GR to ask DSA, DAM and keyring-maint to investigate changes to the Debian infrastructure that would mitigate security issues in the case of a compromise of a DD's credentials. Examples, just to illustrate what I'm thinking about: - create a limited upload rights mode, where DDs would only be allowed to upload their own packages. Action from the DD, like a login on db.debian.org, would be required to switch to full upload rights mode, and that mode would auto-expire after a month without any upload. - do something similar for access to project machines. My own preference is [B] [A] [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either [A] or [B]. - Lucas signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
MJ Ray dijo [Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 11:26:01AM +0100]: Giacomo A. Catenazzi c...@debian.org So you are already free to do it by delegating. A GR would be used to overrule your decision, but, as you already noted, there is already a general consensus on the issue. Equally, the DPL is empowered to start a GR to do this. I'm very happy to see a DPL checking that there really is consensus. We don't have a great history of GRs overruling decisions, do we? Yes, I also think this is what is sought - The GR does not even define tightly what a DC would do, I think it would be almost complementary to DM (i.e. everything a DD can do except for package uploads - That means, voting rights, mail redirection, possibly having an account on project machines?) In fact... hmmm... Would you agree that DC+DM≈DD? So, we could basically end up restructuring the NM process with DC and DM as modules? Greetings, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914165618.gd26...@gwolf.org
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Christoph Berg dijo [Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:30:57PM +0200]: As we still remember the big on terminology thread[0] and we don't want here to create more confusion nor to start the big renaming race, I think it will be better to leave terminology out of this GR, as this will introduce even more ambiguity: aren't sponsored packagers debian contributors(lowercase) too? Any name will be generic to some extend, unless it is long and ugly. I'd thus propose not to call them Debian Contributors (DC) now, and let NM/DAM team pick an appropriate name when reforming the procedures. The idea was discussed, and that's the name we came up with. If someone has a better idea, please tell us, and I'm sure zack will update the proposal. Yes, the naming clearly stems from when we were a flatter, simpler project with all-or-nothing participation. But we now have Debian developers which are not DDs, Debian maintainers which are not DM, and will surely have Debian contributors which are not DCs. I'm thinking... If DD could be seen as an aggregation of privileges (such as what I said in my previous mail, that DC+DM≈DD), adding just one more step could make the process complete. Something along the following lines, and bear with me with the ugly namings: Current nameNew name Debian DeveloperDebian Full Member Debian Maintainer Debian Restricted Package Uploader (none) Debian Package Uploader Debian Contributor Debian Nontechnical Member So, a DPU would be basically what today is a DM (or what I called a DRPU), plus the ability to upload arbitrary packages, including NMUs. A DNM would have all non-packaging-related privileges - voting, debian.org mail forward. Machine accounts seems something vague which could be here or in DPU. And a DFM would be what we currently have as DDs - the sum of privileges. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914170611.ge26...@gwolf.org
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. Seconded. Still worried about terminology, but this is too important to hold it off for such details. Regards, Faidon -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkyPqPgACgkQVty5d8XpUzNJ4ACeJMNLMmsMr5gUbFrAe09cVQAN Nu8AnjqKvg54o3ukn0zy+vwy84t0JldG =6PI+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c8fa8fc.8010...@debian.org
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Lars Wirzenius dijo [Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:41:24PM +0100]: We are calling everyone Debian Developer (cf. the constitution). DCs are a subset of DDs. We realize that we probably need a handy expression for DD with upload rights [1], but we don't have one yet. (Ideas?) Could we please instead not invent new names and call ourselves DD with upload rights and DD without upload rights? We already have a problem with terminology for various kinds of memberships. Let's not make it worse. Heh, we are pulling in opposite directions, although I don't have any deep committment for the ideas I just wrote. The reason I wrote that is that, as we grew from something quite informal, we used very generic naming schemes - and that leads to lack of clarity in the concepts it defines. I believe that having clearer meanings for the member, uh, levels will make it easier for an outsider to understand what do we mean. I do agree with the idea, but it opens up gray areas. There will be DCs who maintain some (maybe documentation-only?) packages, and will become DM for these. With the no-difference idea, it is unclear where the line to classic DD is. And voila, you end up being a fully uploading DD who has skipped TS in the NM process. It's probably possible to do, but it has to be well-thought. Making TS a formal (and technical) prerequisite to the uploading part cuts a clear line. I re-iterate that I think the important distinction is one of trust. Not skills. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Still, when I passed TS, and now when I process my NMs' TS, I learnt many important things I have found useful and would not have come accross otherwise. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914171219.gf26...@gwolf.org
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
* Lucas Nussbaum lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net, 2010-09-14, 18:56: While I support welcoming non-packaging contributors as project members, I am concerned that we are creating the concept of second-class DDs (or at least, that it will be communicated like that). I see two different ways to avoid that: [A] Avoid giving DDs without upload rights any special name or title (like Debian Contributors). Their official title should be Debian Developers, and they should only be special-cased in the documents where the distinction between DDs with upload rights and DDs without upload rights is important. [B] Give everybody upload rights anyway. If we trust them to influence the project's decisions through voting, we should probably trust them to do the right thing and not upload packages when they don't feel qualified to. After all, I am a DD, I have the technical power to make changes to eglibc and upload it, but I should probably not do that. Why am I treated differently from DCs in that regard? Of course, we have a problem with security, and it's probably not very reasonable to have 1000 DDs able to upload every package, and connect to every project machine. So I think that we could use this GR to ask DSA, DAM and keyring-maint to investigate changes to the Debian infrastructure that would mitigate security issues in the case of a compromise of a DD's credentials. Examples, just to illustrate what I'm thinking about: - create a limited upload rights mode, where DDs would only be allowed to upload their own packages. Action from the DD, like a login on db.debian.org, would be required to switch to full upload rights mode, and that mode would auto-expire after a month without any upload. - do something similar for access to project machines. My own preference is [B] [A] [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either [A] or [B]. Same here. -- Jakub Wilk signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Seconded. -Ralf. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Hi, Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 10:53:46, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit : --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- I second this proposal. Cheers, -- Damien - Debian Developper http://wiki.debian.org/DamienRaudeMorvan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
* Jakub Wilk jw...@debian.org, 2010-09-14, 19:18: * Lucas Nussbaum lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net, 2010-09-14, 18:56: My own preference is [B] [A] [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either [A] or [B]. Same here. Just to clarify: I agree both with Lucas ranking and that it'd nice to hear others' opinions. -- Jakub Wilk signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Jakub Wilk jw...@debian.org writes: * Lucas Nussbaum lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net, 2010-09-14, 18:56: [B] Give everybody upload rights anyway. If we trust them to influence the project's decisions through voting, we should probably trust them to do the right thing and not upload packages when they don't feel qualified to. After all, I am a DD, I have the technical power to make changes to eglibc and upload it, but I should probably not do that. Why am I treated differently from DCs in that regard? My own preference is [B] [A] [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either [A] or [B]. Same here. I'd also be interested in an amandment for [B] at least. Regards Christoph -- 9FED 5C6C E206 B70A 5857 70CA 9655 22B9 D49A E731 Debian Developer | Lisp Hacker | CaCert Assurer A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? pgpeCOCqAiCX0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Re: Gunnar Wolf 2010-09-14 20100914170611.ge26...@gwolf.org Yes, the naming clearly stems from when we were a flatter, simpler project with all-or-nothing participation. But we now have Debian developers which are not DDs, Debian maintainers which are not DM, and will surely have Debian contributors which are not DCs. I don't think the confusion is that bad with Developers. Maintainers that are not Debian Maintainers is an unfortunate misnomer, ack. For Contributors, the discussion period is open :) I'm thinking... If DD could be seen as an aggregation of privileges (such as what I said in my previous mail, that DC+DM≈DD), adding just one more step could make the process complete. Something along the following lines, and bear with me with the ugly namings: The equation does not hold. DM is much less than DD - no new binaries, and the entry barrier is way lower. There is no PP or TS for DMs. Current nameNew name Debian Developer Debian Full Member Debian Maintainer Debian Restricted Package Uploader (none)Debian Package Uploader Debian ContributorDebian Nontechnical Member The names you propose sound very technical. I would prefer if we go for something nice. (I'm pretty sure that most of us want to keep the Developer title.) Christoph -- c...@df7cb.de | http://www.df7cb.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 01:04:32PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote: Wholeheartly seconed, for all the longstanding website translators. This isn't signed with a key in the keyring. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914185720.ga27...@roeckx.be
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 07:42:58PM +0200, Damien Raude-Morvan wrote: I second this proposal. This message was signed with a key not in the keyring. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914191733.gb27...@roeckx.be
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Hi, Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 10:53:46, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit : --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- I second this proposal. [This time with a key from the keyring] Cheers, -- Damien - Debian Developper http://wiki.debian.org/DamienRaudeMorvan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On ti, 2010-09-14 at 18:56 +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: My own preference is [B] [A] [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either [A] or [B]. I'd prefer [A] == [B] [original GR proposal] [NOTA]. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1284492567.2573.52.ca...@havelock
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi! This time with the key that's still in the keyring, only noticed after sending that I haven't got it replaced in the keyring yet. * Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org [2010-09-14 10:53:46 CEST]: --- The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system. To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions, including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations, infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice, quality assurance, etc. The Debian project acknowledges that: * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable. * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the opportunity for becoming Debian project members. The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to: * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC). * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors. * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian infrastructure. --- Wholeheartly seconed, for all the longstanding website translators. Rhonda -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkyP2pgACgkQELuA/Ba9d8avgQCfUhqqhmvWf9FQZB/72vE7A/TF ofYAnjeDytix34e1t8/VaB4dfHbwy8Y4 =ytcU -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100914202739.ga17...@anguilla.debian.or.at
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Hi, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit , Le 14/09/2010 18:56: While I support welcoming non-packaging contributors as project members, I am concerned that we are creating the concept of second-class DDs (or at least, that it will be communicated like that). I see two different ways to avoid that: [A] Avoid giving DDs without upload rights any special name or title (like Debian Contributors). Their official title should be Debian Developers, and they should only be special-cased in the documents where the distinction between DDs with upload rights and DDs without upload rights is important. [B] Give everybody upload rights anyway. If we trust them to influence the project's decisions through voting, we should probably trust them to do the right thing and not upload packages when they don't feel qualified to. After all, I am a DD, I have the technical power to make changes to eglibc and upload it, but I should probably not do that. Why am I treated differently from DCs in that regard? Of course, we have a problem with security, and it's probably not very reasonable to have 1000 DDs able to upload every package, and connect to every project machine. So I think that we could use this GR to ask DSA, DAM and keyring-maint to investigate changes to the Debian infrastructure that would mitigate security issues in the case of a compromise of a DD's credentials. Examples, just to illustrate what I'm thinking about: - create a limited upload rights mode, where DDs would only be allowed to upload their own packages. Action from the DD, like a login on db.debian.org, would be required to switch to full upload rights mode, and that mode would auto-expire after a month without any upload. - do something similar for access to project machines. My own preference is [B] [A] [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either [A] or [B]. I second Lucas' proposal, with the very same preference order. Thanks, _gilles. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org writes: I agree with the above, accepting as DDs contributors who do not maintain packages, but your proposal is different: it establishes a new class of project members, who differ by not having upload rights. I suppose that the goal is to avoid disruptive NMUs and damage to our infrastructure in case their GPG key is compromised. But do you think that this is more likely to happen with developers who do not maintain packages, compared with developers who do? Principle of least privilege in security says that people who do not need upload rights should not have them even if they're entirely trustworthy people. Their GPG keys could be compromised through no fault of their own, and since they're not using the access, there's no reason to add to the security risk by adding more keys to the trusted set for uploads. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ocbz3l6c@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Christoph Berg m...@debian.org writes: Re: Luca Bruno 2010-09-14 20100914120120.c0d3f45b.lu...@debian.org I'd thus propose not to call them Debian Contributors (DC) now, and let NM/DAM team pick an appropriate name when reforming the procedures. The idea was discussed, and that's the name we came up with. If someone has a better idea, please tell us, and I'm sure zack will update the proposal. I just don't want to get into a situation where we can't change it later. Maybe just make it explicit in the GR that this is an initial name and may be changed later by the appropriate delegates? This is probably nit-picky rules lawyering, but we ran into a similar problem with the Debian Maintainer GR, which standardized a packaging field in a way that it's now unclear what the change process for that field is. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87k4mn3l35@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Le Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 06:56:01PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit : My own preference is [B] [A] [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either [A] or [B]. Hi Lucas and everybody, after seeing the torrent of seconds, I am still puzzled if this GR is a progress or a regression: is the take home message that Debian should be more open, or that some members must not have upload rights ? When a member does not have upload rights, is it for the principle of least needed priviledge, which suggests that getting that prividedge may be granted automaticaly later with the need, or because that member is not trusted to be able to upload correctly ? I would welcome clarifications in the GR text. Alternatively, I am willing to second amendements like the ones you propose, or to help with the drafting if you need. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100915011705.gb29...@merveille.plessy.net
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Stefano you seem to be 5 years too late with this GR, fjp's AM report looks like he was accepted primarily for his work on documentation and translations: http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2005/02/msg00017.html In addition, as cate pointed out, the constitution already allows DAM/FD to accept such people. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikvhyzwu3oxwweo_kuq_foo6qvmxnq0xcvx3...@mail.gmail.com
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org writes: after seeing the torrent of seconds, I am still puzzled if this GR is a progress or a regression: is the take home message that Debian should be more open, or that some members must not have upload rights ? When a member does not have upload rights, is it for the principle of least needed priviledge, which suggests that getting that prividedge may be granted automaticaly later with the need, or because that member is not trusted to be able to upload correctly ? Well, if one isn't interested in upload rights, there's no need for one to qualify on upload rights during NM, which implies omitting or at least much abbreviating the Tasks and Skills part of NM. But if we want to maintain the policy that anyone with general upload rights complete Tasks and Skills for package uploads, we wouldn't want to extend those rights later without having the person go through NM. I see this as a step towards making NM more modular. Qualification on general package upload is now a module that is optional in NM if you're not interested in contributing in that way, but of course you don't get that access until you qualify. I don't know if the process is the same elsewhere as it is in the US, but in the US you have to take an exam to get a driver's license, which qualifies you to drive standard cars on public roads. If you want to qualify for motorcycles, you have to take a separate exam; similarly for commercial trucks. To me, that feels like the direction we should be heading for in NM. Separate privileges require separate qualification. Right now, we qualify all DDs for everything with some manually-handled exceptions, but really Policy and Procedures is the only universal qualification for all DDs (I think). All the other stuff, like general package upload, is a separate module, sort of like qualifying for motorcycles in addition to regular cars. I could see adding additional things like that in the long run; for example, login to porter boxes could be a separate module with some qualification (such as reading and understanding the usage policy). -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87eicv23rf@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
Dear Paul, On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:25:09AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote: Stefano you seem to be 5 years too late with this GR, fjp's AM report looks like he was accepted primarily for his work on documentation and translations: http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2005/02/msg00017.html In addition, as cate pointed out, the constitution already allows DAM/FD to accept such people. While this may be true, I have a point to make. The word Debian Developer seems to have become synonymous with those who package or write software for Debian. Whether that was intentional or unintentional is not known to me, but this aspect is what several potential contributors seem to know very well, and this demographic applies to enter Debian via the packaging route. While the NM process and related documentation is very clear on allowing non-packaging contributors, I feel that more can be done to encourage non-packaging contributors to take this route, and this step, I felt, is one in that direction. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Thanks! Kumar -- This kernel runs like a dessicated slug if you have more than 2G of memory due to a 32-bit overflow. -- Andrew Morton, on Linux 2.6.8-rc1-mm1 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Kumar Appaiah a.ku...@alumni.iitm.ac.in wrote: The word Debian Developer seems to have become synonymous with those who package or write software for Debian. Whether that was intentional or unintentional is not known to me, but this aspect is what several potential contributors seem to know very well, and this demographic applies to enter Debian via the packaging route. While the NM process and related documentation is very clear on allowing non-packaging contributors, I feel that more can be done to encourage non-packaging contributors to take this route, and this step, I felt, is one in that direction. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Very much correct. I personally would have thought the right way to correct the public perception that NM is not for non-packaging contributors would be to use our (newish) publicity team or a Bits from DAM/FD mail on d-d-a rather than start a GR. On the other hand, the GR has already had some publicity: http://lwn.net/Articles/404954/rss -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti==dqdnyfdcq=-5crxkvsy2sroe-p79tdhis...@mail.gmail.com
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: [ Draft GR text below, look for -. M-F-T set to -vote. ] [ Disclaimer: I'm attending an academic conference this week and I'll be at the Italian mini-DebConf in the week-end. That's why I'll be sluggish in participating to this discussion until next week. ] First of all thanks for the warm welcome of this proposal! From the discussion thus far, I see three main topics emerging and I'll briefly comment about them below Is this GR needed? (raised by at least Giacomo and Paul [1,10]) == I'm very well aware that DAM already has all the needed powers to implement this change. Still there are 2 reasons to have a GR. The first reason is past history. DAM did advance a related proposal in the past. We might consider it as flawed as we please, but that does not change the fact that it has been overruled by the project [2]. Since we are all humans, it is very unlikely at this point that DAM will pursue further the goal without explicit project approval. This GR is meant to verify what the project wants and possibly ask DAM to implement it. The second reason is that cases as the one Paul mentions have been only sporadic exceptions thus far, nothing more. That has the defects of making the exceptions practically invisible and does nothing to change the widespread culture that you need to be a packager to be a DD. Having a clear project vote on the matter will *also* send out a clear message of where the Debian project stands on this matter. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00048.html [2] http://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002 [10] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg6.html Upload rights (raised by at least Lars, Lucas, and Charles [3,4,5]) = Let me go back on why I have advanced this proposal. I believe one of the problem Debian needs to face is acknowledging contributions of non-packagers. Many teams out there have worked with non-DDs on loads of non-packaging stuff: translations, wiki maintenance, porting, and all of the other examples mentioned in the beginning of the GR, and more. Most of those people understand Debian values as much as packagers do and feel excluded from Debian just because they don't master debhelper or maintainer scripts. Due to the reasons mentioned above, DAM and Front Desk are unlikely to accept them as DDs as of today. The proposed GR aims at solving *that* problem and I believe we should keep it in mind. I understand and I'm sympathetic of arguments about trust and 2nd class Debian citizens, but the problem we're trying to solve here is more pragmatic than that. Additionally, those people are generally not interested in upload rights, so I left upload rights out of the GR on purpose, because I think we have a simpler solution at hand's reach. Finally, leaving upload rights out of the GR might enable a much swifter membership procedure. In the current NM process, TS is essentially a packaging qualification (either by templates or — more common these days — by reviewing past work) exactly because people will have upload rights. Russ have surely explained all of above way better than me [6,7]. But the whole point of this GR is having a project-wide decision, not one of mine. Therefore if there is support for the with full upload rights position, I would welcome an amendment in that direction and I'm also ready to second it to ensure that all relevant positions are represented in the ballot. Still, I would appreciate discussion on the above points before such an amendment is advanced. I also believe GRs should not be used as hammers on the heads of working teams, until they are really needed; hence I also recommend to seek comments from DAM and Front Desk on a draft amendment before making it formal. [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00017.html [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00028.html [5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00010.html [6] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00045.html [7] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00049.html Naming (raised by at least Luca and Lars [8,9]) == Ah, what a mess! Until a few minutes before posting the GR proposal, the text contained a s/Debian Members/non-uploading Debian Developers/ and before that several more s/// have been applied on drafts. So, believe me, I fully understand the puzzling about the name. Let's make it clear that the new role we are introducing is not something different than DDs from the POV of constitution. We are just saying that we accept as DDs (called in the constitution both developers and project members) people who contribute stuff other than packaging work. Those people will be Debian Developer, no question. The problem is that in practice we will *need* a name to distinguish on the basis of upload rights (e.g. imagine an IRC
Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 04:04:24PM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
* Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
to become
or if you prefer:
of becoming
I bow to the superior knowledge of the British language :-) (and I
encourage anyone to point out similar fixes).
I hereby accept this as an editorial change that does not affect the
meaning of the proposal.
GR text is now also available at http://git.debian.org/?p=dpl/dpl.git
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
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