Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian
Le Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:01:44AM +0100, Guillem Jover a écrit : I think that forcing a decision through the TC at this time was very premature and inappropriate, because I don't think enough effort had been made to reach consensus (failing §6.3(6)) Hi Guillem, I agree that calling the TC was premature. We have a default init system that has the Essential flag, and it is impossible to switch to alternatives without going through a very strong warning. In my understanding, to have GNOME 3.10 in Debian, we need to work around this difficulty. As a consequence, this would pull systemd on such a large number of systems, but as long as GNOME needs to explicitely depend on it, it is still not the default. I have not read GNOME or systemd packagers asking to the maintainers of packages containing init scripts to drop support for our current default system. The Debian way of doing things is that if a systemd service file is missing, a patch should be sent. If the TC choses a new default that is not systemd, the situation of GNOME does not change: it will still need a mechanism to pull systemd and replace the default. But at the time the TC was called, I was not under the impression that the GNOME or systemd maintainers have asked for a decision, and I very much agree with that: first, one has to show in Testing a system where GNOME and systemd work well. In that sense, the call to the TC was premature: we should remove obstacles for change, and only top-down decide when some ways are incompatible in a way that is affecting a large number of users. If one day it is not possible to have Desktop manager A and Desktop manager B installed on the same machine, the solution may be simply to call this unsupported unless there is a significant demand for this feature. Perhaps the way out is to solve the technical problem regarding the Essential flag so that it is easier to install systemd, upstart or openrc, and defer a decision untill the call for change comes from enough maintainers of init scripts saying that they want to stop supporting it. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140122235808.gc12...@falafel.plessy.net
Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 08:58:08AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: Le Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 01:01:44AM +0100, Guillem Jover a écrit : I think that forcing a decision through the TC at this time was very premature and inappropriate, because I don't think enough effort had been made to reach consensus (failing §6.3(6)) I agree that calling the TC was premature. We have a default init system that has the Essential flag, and it is impossible to switch to alternatives without going through a very strong warning. Factually incorrect. The sysvinit package in unstable has been fixed to depend on sysvinit-core | upstart | systemd-sysv, allowing users to switch between init systems without removing an essential package. In my understanding, to have GNOME 3.10 in Debian, we need to work around this difficulty. Not true, on multiple axes. In that sense, the call to the TC was premature: we should remove obstacles for change, and only top-down decide when some ways are incompatible in a way that is affecting a large number of users. If one day it is not possible to have Desktop manager A and Desktop manager B installed on the same machine, the solution may be simply to call this unsupported unless there is a significant demand for this feature. A decision needs to be made about the default init system. Like other questions of defaults, it's not clearly the remit of any particular maintainer or maintenance team in Debian. Such things tend to be decided by fiat by the installer team, but in this case that's not possible; the presence of the Essential flag on the sysvinit package historically means that the change of default must be made by coordination with the sysvinit maintainers. If you want to avoid a TC decision, I suppose that as a regular committer to the sysvinit package I could just take it upon myself to set upstart as the default. But I thought that it might be better to have a slightly less unilateral decision-making approach. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian
Le Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 04:26:16PM -0800, Steve Langasek a écrit : On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 08:58:08AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: We have a default init system that has the Essential flag, and it is impossible to switch to alternatives without going through a very strong warning. Factually incorrect. The sysvinit package in unstable has been fixed to depend on sysvinit-core | upstart | systemd-sysv, allowing users to switch between init systems without removing an essential package. Thanks for the clarification. An earlier message in this thread gave me the impression that it still had been the case (that I went through when installing systemd on my machines), but indeed I was wrong. In that case, I think that the project should decide via using this or that system (“vote with the feet”). For the packages where init scripts are a limitation, just depend on systemd, upstart, openrc, or combinations of them, and if and only if it is not possible to install Debian because pairs of core packages depend on different single init systems, let's vote. Cheers, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140123005814.gd12...@falafel.plessy.net
Re: GR: Selecting the default init system for Debian
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 09:58:14AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: In that case, I think that the project should decide via using this or that system (“vote with the feet”). For the packages where init scripts are a limitation, just depend on systemd, upstart, openrc, or combinations of them, and if and only if it is not possible to install Debian because pairs of core packages depend on different single init systems, let's vote. So, let me get this straight. You're saying let's do nothing until the entire system breaks because of a component that nobody really cares about, so that we can _then_ try to start a procedure which will take weeks (if not months) to maybe unbreak it, leaving the system in an utterly broken state in the meantime? I seriously question that logic. -- This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today. -- http://xkcd.com/1133/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140123031441.gf18...@grep.be
