Bug#986503: ITPetition: see the leaked emails about Tagliamonte, Pentagon plot

[Chris Lynch]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-de...@lists.debian.org,debian-vote@lists.debian.org

Paul Tagliamonte betrayed Jacob Appelbaum while working at the White House

He sent multiple (leaked) messages on debian-private whinging and whining that 
he doesn't feel safe

How can somebody who whinges like Molly and Elana work in the Pentagon?

What a sook!

https://www.google.com/?q=paul+tagliamonte+pentagon+appelbaum

Re: dealing with aggression against project

[Russ Allbery]

Dmitry Smirnov  writes:

> Suppose Debian is to receive a similar letter of aggression, e.g.  "We
> IBM and Mozilla Foundation think that your duly elected project leader
> is unworthy."

I would read the letter with great interest to try to understand why they
felt that way, and probably also talk to people outside of Debian as well
as people inside of Debian, people I trusted to be honest with me, to see
if they had similar feelings or concerns that they weren't raising because
they didn't think it would do any good, or were intimidated out of
raising, or otherwise didn't feel safe to raise.

At the end of the process, I might decide that I disagreed with some or
all of the letter or that the complaints were spurious or ill-founded, but
(particularly if signed by organizations that I knew were unlikely to do
such a thing lightly) it would be worth spending some time thinking and
analyzing and trying to understand and seeing if I had some blind spot,
and what would have led to them taking such a step.

> Wouldn't the only reasonable response to that be "mind your own
> business"?

No, for some reason I don't feel the need to react to sincere external
criticism from serious organizations with knee-jerk hostility or
dismissiveness.

Even if, after a thoughtful analysis, I completely disagreed with every
point of the substance of such a letter, the most productive way to deal
with such a letter is to calmly explain why it did not seem valid and then
go on with what one was going to do anyway.  It's also a good opportunity
to ensure that one's governance processes are open, transparent, and
functional, because there's always a possibility that I could disagree
completely with such a letter *and be completely wrong*, and there needs
to be a usable path for one's opinion to be outvoted.

> Note that if we start discussing response and putting it out for GR then
> we are DoS'ed successfully.

Responding to serious concerns about the governance of a public benefit
project (which I would count Debian as, although we're not formally
incorporated as such) is part of the work of that project and is a moral
and ethical obligation on the project.  That doesn't mean *everyone* in
the project has any obligation to be involved, but it does mean that it's
a role the project should fill and take seriously.

Debian is, of course, a volunteer project.  Therefore, if it's not
something you find interesting or useful, you're free (and encouraged!) to
ignore that process and let those of us who are willing to do the work do
it.

PS: I would not consider such a letter to be "aggression against the
project" in any meaningful way, and thus also don't agree with the subject
line of this thread.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)  

dealing with aggression against project

[Dmitry Smirnov]

Suppose Debian is to receive a similar letter of aggression, e.g.
"We IBM and Mozilla Foundation think that your duly elected project
leader is unworthy."

Wouldn't the only reasonable response to that be "mind your own business"? 

Note that if we start discussing response and putting it out for GR then
we are DoS'ed successfully.

-- 
All the best,
 Dmitry Smirnov
 GPG key : 4096R/52B6BBD953968D1B

---

The end cannot justify the means for the simple and obvious reason that the
means employed determine the nature of the ends produced.
-- Aldous Huxley

---

And how long a lockdown is enough? If we open now, will lockdown recur in
autumn? Next year? Whenever authoritarianism so wishes? No dictatorship
could imagine a better precedent for absolute control.
-- https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1924.long
:: BMJ 2020;369:m1924 "Should governments continue lockdown to slow the 
spread of covid-19?"


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Re: opinion on Choice 1

[Bernd Zeimetz]

On Sun, 2021-04-04 at 16:37 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 03:09:10PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:18 +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:
> 
> > > People without voting rights repeatedly tried to lobby or push for a 
> > > certain agenda on this list. 
> 
> > Welcome to Debian.
> > People are free to express their opinion, even if they are not owning
> > an @debian.org email address. And that is actually a very good thing.
> > The interested reader is able to filter messages and maybe maintain a
> > list of people to ignore if needed. It might be annoying for you, but
> > free speech is not always fun.
> 
> People are free to express their opinion.  That does not mean the Debian
> Project is obligated to provide a platform for those opinions on the
> debian-vote mailing list, which exists to facilitate discussions among
> voting members of the Debian Project regarding matters that will be voted
> on.

There are lots of active people in Debian who do not have voting right, but
at least I for my part want to hear their opinion if they want to share it.
And it would be a shame if those opinions would not be heard.


> Non-voting posters to debian-vote are almost exclusively outside agitators
> and there's no reason subscribing to debian-vote should mean receiving their
> bullshit in our mailboxes.

Do you have any statistics on that?
Personally I don't mind to ignore some trolls, but if it bothers people too
much, I also wouldn't mind if somebody would implement a filter that only
accepts mails from active contributors. Although I guess that even discusing
what the requirements for such an active contributor are, will take more time
than ignoring some trolls once a year.


-- 
 Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485  DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F

Re: Proposal to take the discussion elsewhere Re: opinion on Choice 1

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Le 6 avril 2021 12:50:59 GMT+02:00, Ulrike Uhlig  a écrit :
>Hi peb,
>
>I think it's time to stop this thread here and now.
>
>If people want to discuss factually, and empathically if it's helpful 
>for the project to make certain lists read-only for non Debian members, 
>I think that's a valuable discussion to have, but not here (better on 
>-private or on -project).
>
>Yes, there are multiple things on this entire mailing list that me too, 
>I would like to reply to, but I have other things to do and it will just 
>end up in more and more and more emails with a less and less and less 
>friendly tone - and no actual outcomes that will make the project 
>progress and grow. Maybe those would be desirable goals to keep in mind 
>when posting.
>
>Thanks,
>Ulrike
>

Hey Ulrike, 

I don't have the impression that my way of expressing myself became less 
friendly over the time but I could be wrong. If so please don't hesitate to 
tell me, maybe privately. 

But I understand and agree with your point : we indeed have better places to 
discuss that. And actually it can wait for the RMS GR to be over and the 
tension having lowered.

Sorry for the noise and for reaching out ! :) 

Cheers,
--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
From my phone

Help

[Richard Miller]

I need my phone rooted.could u hop

Proposal to take the discussion elsewhere Re: opinion on Choice 1

[Ulrike Uhlig]

Hi peb,

I think it's time to stop this thread here and now.

If people want to discuss factually, and empathically if it's helpful 
for the project to make certain lists read-only for non Debian members, 
I think that's a valuable discussion to have, but not here (better on 
-private or on -project).


Yes, there are multiple things on this entire mailing list that me too, 
I would like to reply to, but I have other things to do and it will just 
end up in more and more and more emails with a less and less and less 
friendly tone - and no actual outcomes that will make the project 
progress and grow. Maybe those would be desirable goals to keep in mind 
when posting.


Thanks,
Ulrike

Re: opinion on Choice 1

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

Le lundi 05 avril 2021 à 13:19:49-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :
> > Even though it's hard and can be tiresome to many of us (and maybe
> > drives some away), as long as possible, I'd like the majority of our
> > lists to stay open to all people willing to express something.
> 
> > Blocking potentially relevant comments from non contributors because
> > some trolls are trying to wreck havoc is giving them too much importance
> > and therefore giving them an easy victory.
> 
> Can you point to an example of a post you consider actually (not "possibly")
> relevant from a non Debian voter to debian-vote in the past 2 years?

92221074-9ef0-bb74-e6d5-989b09f9e...@gmail.com

> Why should we allow third parties to lobby Debian electors using our mailing
> list infrastructure?

Well, some of us are using GitHub as a way to sign letters to support or
denounce RMS' appointment at the board of the FSF. So I guess it'd be
curious to be shocked that others' emit opinion on what we do or say.

And as why we would let them do it there, I'd say it makes things easier
for us, except if you want them to post on debian.community, github, or
wherever the frack they want?

> > And, despite what I personally think, a non-contributor calling the RMS
> > vote a "witch hunt" is not necessarily a troll.
> 
> I never used the word "troll", which for me has a very specific meaning
> grounded in its historical usage in online communities.

I never said you did use that word.

> I referred to them as "outside agitators", which I believe they are -
> whether or not a particular individual's intention is to derail the
> discussion, it is certainly their intention to influence the outcome
> of Debian's decision process according to their own interests, whether
> or not those align with the interests of the Debian voters as a
> democratic body.

Man, why would be so edgy about others trying to express their opinion
on what we do if we're so keen on having the project express an opinion
about what others do?

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.


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