Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Don Armstrong]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> Kurt, my inclination was to consider this change as falling under
> Constitution §A.1.3 as a change that "does not alter the meaning" of
> the proposal.

Since you don't actually need seconders under §4.2.1, and you are the
proposer of the original option, I don't think it's necessary (unless
a seconder wants to propose the original proposal as a second
amendment.) And in any case, any change is allowed by the original
proposer of a particular amendment; it just resets the discussion
period unless it meets A.1.6. [Though one of these days, we probably
should fix up A.1; it's language doesn't properly promote amendments
to resolutions (options?) to be voted on.]


Don Armstrong

-- 
The sheer ponderousness of the panel's opinion [...] refutes its
thesis far more convincingly than anything I might say. The panel's
labored effort to smother the Second Amendment by sheer body weight
has all the grace of a sumo wrestler trying to kill a rattlesnake by
sitting on it---and is just as likely to succeed.
 -- Alex Kozinski, Dissenting in Silveira v. Lockyer
(CV-00-00411-WBS p5983-4)

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Enrico Zini]

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 11:33:24AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end, the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including, but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, who share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity to become Debian Developers.
> 
> The Debian project, therefore, invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
>   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
>   non-packaging work, who get accepted as Debian Developers, to
>   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
>   infrastructure.

Seconded.


Ciao,

Enrico

-- 
GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini 


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Kumar Appaiah]

Hi!

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 11:33:24AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end, the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including, but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, who share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity to become Debian Developers.
> 
> The Debian project, therefore, invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
>   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
>   non-packaging work, who get accepted as Debian Developers, to
>   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
>   infrastructure.

I second the above proposal.

Thanks!

Kumar
-- 
We come to bury DOS, not to praise it.
(Paul Vojta, vo...@math.berkeley.edu, paraphrasing a quote of Shakespeare)


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Damien Raude-Morvan]

Le dimanche 19 septembre 2010 11:33:24, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 09:36:50AM -0500, Kumar Appaiah wrote:
> > > Even better, now with attachments!
> > 
> > There is yet another pronoun I have missed. Please find a patch
> > attached.
> 
> Applied (wording / punctuation fix), thanks!
>
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end, the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including, but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
>
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>  other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
>
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, who share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity to become Debian Developers.
> 
> The Debian project, therefore, invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
>   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
>   non-packaging work, who get accepted as Debian Developers, to
>   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
>   infrastructure.
> ---

Seconded, again.

-- 
Damien - Debian Developper
http://wiki.debian.org/DamienRaudeMorvan


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi!

Am 19.09.2010 17:06, schrieb Lars Wirzenius:
> On su, 2010-09-19 at 11:33 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
>> On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 09:36:50AM -0500, Kumar Appaiah wrote:
 Even better, now with attachments!
>>> There is yet another pronoun I have missed. Please find a patch
>>> attached.
>>
>> Applied (wording / punctuation fix), thanks!
>>
>> New current text is attached.
> 
> Seconded (sha1sum of attachment was
> 3dc10c8dcee25fd9af5d8895ad4bd2d9176b9397).

Seconded, with the same sha1sum ;)

Best regards,
  Alexander
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkyWKDoACgkQBxd04ADYzRYnhwCaAzR7Z7wxRuoVCSQOpST2vriP
LDYAoJYYajQkVKAmdeYhDNtkOq0FU2g4
=tJIB
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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Lars Wirzenius]

On su, 2010-09-19 at 11:33 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 09:36:50AM -0500, Kumar Appaiah wrote:
> > > Even better, now with attachments!
> > There is yet another pronoun I have missed. Please find a patch
> > attached.
> 
> Applied (wording / punctuation fix), thanks!
> 
> New current text is attached.

Seconded (sha1sum of attachment was
3dc10c8dcee25fd9af5d8895ad4bd2d9176b9397).


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 10:07:04AM +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> Toni Mueller  writes:
> 
> > I am uncomfortable with this wording:
> >
> > > * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
> >
> > s/which/who/, imho. Are any native speakers around?
> 
> My opinion as a NSoE matches yours on this point.

Fixed here:

http://git.debian.org/?p=dpl/dpl.git;a=commitdiff;h=505f9a6f891fe5d8a0be43beff2bb8948448b864
http://git.debian.org/?p=dpl/dpl.git;a=commitdiff;h=16855c2cef55bc28f9d535856d933c6166990116

Kumar
-- 
"By golly, I'm beginning to think Linux really *is* the best thing since
sliced bread."
(By Vance Petree, Virginia Power)


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Secretary - Kurt Roeckx]

On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:40:07AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> 
> I'm hereby introducing two changes:
> 
> a) dropping the name "Debian Contributor"
>(attachment 0001-remove-the-term-Debian-Contributor.patch)
> 
> b) fixing punctuation as suggested by Kumar Appaiah [1], thanks!
>(attachment 0002-Add-punctuation-and-fix-some-pronouns.patch)
> 
> The text applying both patches is attached as well (attachment
> debian-contributors.txt). Everything has been pushed to [2].
> 
> I believe (b) falls for sure under §A.1.6.
> 
> I believe that also (a) falls under §A.1.6, but it's your call.
> *If* you disagree with that interpretation, I hereby formally introduce
> it as an amendment and, as the GR proposer, I hereby also accept it.

I believe the text has the same intentions as the orignal, but
that it does alter the meaning.  Which means I'm resetting the
discussion period.

It would be nice that people could confirm that they have
no problem with this changed text so that there is no doubt that
this text has enough seconds.


Kurt



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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 09:36:50AM -0500, Kumar Appaiah wrote:
> > Even better, now with attachments!
> There is yet another pronoun I have missed. Please find a patch
> attached.

Applied (wording / punctuation fix), thanks!

New current text is attached.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, |  .  |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
To that end, the project benefits from various types of contributions,
including, but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
quality assurance, etc.

The Debian project acknowledges that:

* To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
  other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.

* Active contributors of non-packaging work, who share Debian values
  and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
  opportunity to become Debian Developers.

The Debian project, therefore, invites the Debian Account Managers to:

* Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
  Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.

* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
  non-packaging work as Debian Developers.

* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
  non-packaging work, who get accepted as Debian Developers, to
  participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
  infrastructure.


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Ben Finney]

Toni Mueller  writes:

> I am uncomfortable with this wording:
>
> > * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>
> s/which/who/, imho. Are any native speakers around?

My opinion as a NSoE matches yours on this point.

-- 
 \“Telling pious lies to trusting children is a form of abuse, |
  `\plain and simple.” —Daniel Dennett, 2010-01-12 |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Toni Mueller]

Hi,

On Tue, 14.09.2010 at 17:53:46 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli  
wrote:
>   in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming
> non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one.
> Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last
> forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic.

I realize that I'm quite late in this discussion, but the proposal
creates a third class of people in the project, and members of this
class don't need to go through DM. But DMs also don't have to, right?


I am uncomfortable with this wording:

> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values

s/which/who/, imho. Are any native speakers around?


Kind regards,
--Toni++


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Emilio Pozuelo Monfort]

Hi,

On 18/09/10 16:43, Toni Mueller wrote:
> On Tue, 14.09.2010 at 17:53:46 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli  
> wrote:
>>   in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming
>> non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one.
>> Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last
>> forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic.
> 
> I understand the proposal to mean that there'll be a third class of
> people inside the project, besides DDs and DMs, and they can enter the
> project w/o passing through NM. Right?

Nope. The proposal, AFAIUI, is about accepting non-packagers as DDs, but
(possibly) without upload rights. There is ongoing discussion about whether they
should or shouldn't have upload rights, and whether they should have an
(additional) different name, but most likely they will just be 'DDs'. They will
need to go through NM, except for T&S, since they won't have upload rights.

Regards,
Emilio


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Toni Mueller]

Hi,

On Tue, 14.09.2010 at 17:53:46 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli  
wrote:
>   in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming
> non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one.
> Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last
> forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic.

I understand the proposal to mean that there'll be a third class of
people inside the project, besides DDs and DMs, and they can enter the
project w/o passing through NM. Right?

> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range
> of other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian

s/which/who/, imho. Are there any native speakers around?

> values and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve
> the opportunity for becoming Debian project members.



Kind regards,
--Toni++


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Kumar Appaiah]

Dear Zack,

On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:56:32AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:40:07AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> > I'm hereby introducing two changes:
> 
> Even better, now with attachments!

There is yet another pronoun I have missed. Please find a patch
attached.

Thanks!

Kumar
-- 
NEVER RESPOND TO CRITICAL PRESS.  IT IS A GAME YOU CAN ONLY LOSE, AND IT
MAKES US LOOK BAD.
-- Bruce Perens
From 487a42d9bed5280d5575f6f63bcd89aaa0b38055 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Kumar Appaiah 
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 09:35:24 -0500
Subject: [PATCH] Fix another pronoun (`who' as opposed to `which' for `contribtuors')

---
 gr/debian-contributors.txt |2 +-
 1 files changed, 1 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)

diff --git a/gr/debian-contributors.txt b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
index 9f148db..7c28a84 100644
--- a/gr/debian-contributors.txt
+++ b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,6 @@ The Debian project, therefore, invites the Debian Account Managers to:
   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
 
 * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
-  non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
+  non-packaging work, who get accepted as Debian Developers, to
   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
   infrastructure.
-- 
1.7.1



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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:40:07AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> > My question was basicly if you wanted to make that change
> > at that time.  My interpretation is that you didn't propose
> > to change it at that time, but that you would do it at some
> > later time.
> >
> > The question was which part of the constituion this would follow.

That should be "was not which".


Kurt


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:40:07AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> I'm hereby introducing two changes:

Even better, now with attachments!

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, |  .  |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
To that end, the project benefits from various types of contributions,
including, but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
quality assurance, etc.

The Debian project acknowledges that:

* To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
  other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.

* Active contributors of non-packaging work, who share Debian values
  and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
  opportunity to become Debian Developers.

The Debian project, therefore, invites the Debian Account Managers to:

* Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
  Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.

* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
  non-packaging work as Debian Developers.

* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
  non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
  participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
  infrastructure.
From da645fd167c27eef5ae5876494a34b6e62c8ec10 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Stefano Zacchiroli 
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:53:19 +0900
Subject: [PATCH 1/2] remove the term "Debian Contributor"

as discussed on -vote, starting at
http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00054.html
---
 gr/debian-contributors.txt |   15 ---
 1 files changed, 8 insertions(+), 7 deletions(-)

diff --git a/gr/debian-contributors.txt b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
index 11e9192..88e5a7c 100644
--- a/gr/debian-contributors.txt
+++ b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
@@ -12,16 +12,17 @@ The Debian project acknowledges that:
 
 * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
-  opportunity to become Debian project members.
+  opportunity to become Debian Developers.
 
 The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
 
 * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
-  Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
-  new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
+  Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
 
-* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
+* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
+  non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
 
-* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
-  Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
-  Debian infrastructure.
+* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
+  non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
+  participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
+  infrastructure.
-- 
1.7.1

From 505f9a6f891fe5d8a0be43beff2bb8948448b864 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Kumar Appaiah 
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:27:17 -0500
Subject: [PATCH 2/2] Add punctuation and fix some pronouns.

---
 gr/debian-contributors.txt |8 
 1 files changed, 4 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/gr/debian-contributors.txt b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
index 88e5a7c..9f148db 100644
--- a/gr/debian-contributors.txt
+++ b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
-To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
-including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
+To that end, the project benefits from various types of contributions,
+including, but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
 infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
 fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
 quality assurance, etc.
@@ -10,11 +10,11 @@ The Debian project acknowledges that:
 * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
 
-* Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
+* Active contributors of non-packaging work, who share Debian values
   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
   opportunity to become Debian Developers.
 
-The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
+

Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 06:42:18PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> > Kurt, my inclination was to consider this change as falling under
> > Constitution §A.1.3 as a change that "does not alter the meaning" of the
> > proposal.
> 
> That would be A.1.6?

Yes, totally, sorry for the typo.

> My question was basicly if you wanted to make that change
> at that time.  My interpretation is that you didn't propose
> to change it at that time, but that you would do it at some
> later time.
>
> The question was which part of the constituion this would follow.

Fair enough. 

I'm hereby introducing two changes:

a) dropping the name "Debian Contributor"
   (attachment 0001-remove-the-term-Debian-Contributor.patch)

b) fixing punctuation as suggested by Kumar Appaiah [1], thanks!
   (attachment 0002-Add-punctuation-and-fix-some-pronouns.patch)

The text applying both patches is attached as well (attachment
debian-contributors.txt). Everything has been pushed to [2].

I believe (b) falls for sure under §A.1.6.

I believe that also (a) falls under §A.1.6, but it's your call.
*If* you disagree with that interpretation, I hereby formally introduce
it as an amendment and, as the GR proposer, I hereby also accept it.


Cheers.

  [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00066.html
  [2] http://git.debian.org/?p=dpl/dpl.git

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, |  .  |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Simon Richter]

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 06:52:02PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

> > In case these changes are regarded as more than editorial (which is your
> > call, but I feel they are), the new proposal requires new seconds

> I'm not sure why you think the proposal requires seconds if it
> replaces an older proposal.  As long as nobody objects it doesn't
> need seconds.  Atleast that's my current interpretation, feel free
> to try and convince me otherwise.

The existing seconds refer to the old text, and I believe that the
changes do alter the meaning of the text.

   Simon


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Florian Weimer]

* Charles Plessy:

> I wonder why not simply inviting the Debian Account Managers to
> accept the long term contributors as DDs, even if they to not
> maintain packages? Would an amendement be welcome?

Seems reasonable.  (I'm among those who believe that voting rights are
more fundamental than upload rights.)

We could also suggest (outside the GR) that DAM provides something
which enables DDs to permanently break a key for uploads, without
invalidating it for other purposes.  That might be useful for some DDs
and would-be DCs.

We may also need a more flexible NM process to accommodate those who
do non-packaging work.


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:45:52AM +0200, Simon Richter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:48:02PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> 
> > > I like that a lot more than the other wording, thus seconded.
> 
> > Please don't go and make this more confusing for me.  As far as I
> > can tell this wasn't meant to be amendment yet.  He will probably
> > accept this or something simular as amendment replacing the
> > orignal text.  So at that time I could put you down as someone
> > that seconds that proposal.  You now basicly seem to have created
> > a second proposal.
> 
> I'm not sure I can create a proposal without actually saying so. So no,
> not yet. :)
> 
> Basically, there are now two versions of the text floating around, where
> only one has been proposed as a GR, and where the original proposer
> (Stefano) has the option to adopt the changes, and thus turn the second
> version into his proposal, dropping the first.
> 
> In case these changes are regarded as more than editorial (which is your
> call, but I feel they are), the new proposal requires new seconds

I'm not sure why you think the proposal requires seconds if it
replaces an older proposal.  As long as nobody objects it doesn't
need seconds.  Atleast that's my current interpretation, feel free
to try and convince me otherwise.


Kurt


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 04:08:50PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:40:09PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> > > I'll let the patch linger for a couple of days -- actually, I'll be away
> > > for most part of tomorrow -- and then I'll apply it, posting a new
> > > complete draft here shortly thereafter.
> > So I'm not considering this currently as an amendment.
> 
> Kurt, my inclination was to consider this change as falling under
> Constitution §A.1.3 as a change that "does not alter the meaning" of the
> proposal.

That would be A.1.6?

> Do you disagree with that interpretation? If so I can, as the
> proposer, turn that change into a formal amendment and directly accept
> it (under §A.1.1 and §A.1.2), offering then the opportunity to seconders
> to disagree forking the text. I think it's in the best interest of all
> of us not to fork two options for *this* specific reason and I think
> §A.1.3 applies and it's the best way forward.

My question was basicly if you wanted to make that change
at that time.  My interpretation is that you didn't propose
to change it at that time, but that you would do it at some
later time.

The question was which part of the constituion this would follow.

I also want to avoid having to fork it.


Kurt


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:51:51PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Stefano's DPL platform is actually quite clear on the subject:

> After seeing the results of this choice, it will always be possible to
> change the procedure, especially if a later DPL is elected with a
> platform that goes more towards an equal access for all DDs.

I know you're very keen of this argument, but it has always been
unconvincing to me.  It is not because DPL get elected on specific
platforms that they can assume the majority of people share *all* of
their content. It is generally *likely* that voters share most of the
content of the winner's platform, but there can still be controversial
points that are not appreciated by the majority of voters.

In fact, you can even imagine an election with only "bad" candidates, in
which voters vote following the discipline of "I choose the candidate I
dislike the least" more than that of "I choose the candidate I like the
most". In such an hypothetical election, the content of the platform is
pretty much useless to understand what the project wants.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Charles Plessy]

Le Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 02:03:01PM +0100, Matthew Johnson a écrit :
> 
> OTOH, if we pass a GR that looks like "we'll give them upload rights" (because
> it just says "they are DDs") and then they aren't given upload rights some
> people might feel upset that they voted for it. Just because it's not 
> required 
> doesn't mean it might not be a good idea to include it.

Stefano's DPL platform is actually quite clear on the subject:

  We need to generalize the lessons learned from the DM process. We have a lot 
of
  potential valuable contributors out there. They just need better documentation
  about how to join. They simply demand something in exchange, to be proud of,
  that acknowledges their efforts. I do not have preconceptions on the different
  ways of achieving this (e.g. ACLs vs linearly increasing privileges), but we
  need to go in that direction. In doing so, we should also relax our implicit
  assumptions that only technical abilities matter in Debian. The "best 
operating
  system" is mainly, not only, made of software; it is also made of 
translations,
  graphics, musics, etc.
  
  I will push for more gradual and rewarding access paths to Debian.

So if we vote for a GR that do not give a direction, it will be unsurprising
that DAM and FD will implement a ‘gradual’ access to our facilities. But the
important thing is that it will not be asked by the GR. After seeing the
results of this choice, it will always be possible to change the procedure,
especially if a later DPL is elected with a platform that goes more towards an
equal access for all DDs.

[Of course, I noticed that the GR is actually carefully worded to not decide
anything, but only to invite. Still, I think that if it contains an invitation
to not give upload access to DDs who do not maintain packages, it will be
difficult ignore it.]

I would love to vote for an amendement that invites DAM and FD to give a normal
upload access to all DDs, but they are free to decline the invitation (and it
is a good thing). I think that we need to compromise and move on, and I propose
to do so by avoiding a wording that would make it difficult to change our
choice on this subject later.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Matthew Johnson]

On Thu Sep 16 14:58, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > I don't think we should open a second way to get upload rights to the 
> > archive,
> > so I would *not* want to remove that part.
> 
> So do you think that if “albeit without upload access to the Debian archive” 
> is
> not present, the GR will prevent you from restricting upload access to the
> archive for the DDs who did not pass T&S?
> 
> I am looking for a formulation that invites you to do what you want, without
> giving a preference for or against the restriction of upload rights.

OTOH, if we pass a GR that looks like "we'll give them upload rights" (because
it just says "they are DDs") and then they aren't given upload rights some
people might feel upset that they voted for it. Just because it's not required 
doesn't mean it might not be a good idea to include it.

Matt


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Simon Richter]

Hi,

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:48:02PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

> > I like that a lot more than the other wording, thus seconded.

> Please don't go and make this more confusing for me.  As far as I
> can tell this wasn't meant to be amendment yet.  He will probably
> accept this or something simular as amendment replacing the
> orignal text.  So at that time I could put you down as someone
> that seconds that proposal.  You now basicly seem to have created
> a second proposal.

I'm not sure I can create a proposal without actually saying so. So no,
not yet. :)

Basically, there are now two versions of the text floating around, where
only one has been proposed as a GR, and where the original proposer
(Stefano) has the option to adopt the changes, and thus turn the second
version into his proposal, dropping the first.

In case these changes are regarded as more than editorial (which is your
call, but I feel they are), the new proposal requires new seconds (well,
technically, it doesn't if the DPL proposes the GR), so I'm adding mine,
assuming that the changes are adopted. If they aren't, I'm inclined to
formally proposing this as an alternate text, but I believe others will
beat me to it anyway.

This feels like an excellent round of [Name of our Leader].

   Simon


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:40:09PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> > I'll let the patch linger for a couple of days -- actually, I'll be away
> > for most part of tomorrow -- and then I'll apply it, posting a new
> > complete draft here shortly thereafter.
> So I'm not considering this currently as an amendment.

Kurt, my inclination was to consider this change as falling under
Constitution §A.1.3 as a change that "does not alter the meaning" of the
proposal. Do you disagree with that interpretation? If so I can, as the
proposer, turn that change into a formal amendment and directly accept
it (under §A.1.1 and §A.1.2), offering then the opportunity to seconders
to disagree forking the text. I think it's in the best interest of all
of us not to fork two options for *this* specific reason and I think
§A.1.3 applies and it's the best way forward.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Charles Plessy]

Le Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:02:34PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz a écrit :
> On 09/15/2010 02:16 PM, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > Le Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:00:32PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> >>
> >> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> >>
> >> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
> >>   Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
> >>
> >> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
> >>   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
> >>
> >> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
> >>   non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
> >>   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
> >>   infrastructure.
> > 
> > It seems to me that, if “albeit without upload access to the Debian archive”
> > were removed, it would not close the possibility for the people in charge to
> > restrict upload capacities of developers who do not need them (do-o-cracy),
> > while at the same time it would make the GR more neutral, focusing it on
> > acceptance of new members, without suggesting restriction and therefore
> > difference of status.
> 
> I don't think we should open a second way to get upload rights to the archive,
> so I would *not* want to remove that part.

So do you think that if “albeit without upload access to the Debian archive” is
not present, the GR will prevent you from restricting upload access to the
archive for the DDs who did not pass T&S?

I am looking for a formulation that invites you to do what you want, without
giving a preference for or against the restriction of upload rights.

Cheers,

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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Bernd Zeimetz]

On 09/15/2010 02:16 PM, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:00:32PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
>>
>> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
>>
>> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>>   Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
>>
>> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
>>   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
>>
>> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
>>   non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
>>   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
>>   infrastructure.
> 
> It seems to me that, if “albeit without upload access to the Debian archive”
> were removed, it would not close the possibility for the people in charge to
> restrict upload capacities of developers who do not need them (do-o-cracy),
> while at the same time it would make the GR more neutral, focusing it on
> acceptance of new members, without suggesting restriction and therefore
> difference of status.

I don't think we should open a second way to get upload rights to the archive,
so I would *not* want to remove that part.



-- 
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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 02:13:12PM +0200, Simon Richter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:00:32PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> 
> > The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> > To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> > including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> > infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> > fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> > quality assurance, etc.
> > 
> > The Debian project acknowledges that:
> > 
> > * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
> >   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> > 
> > * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
> >   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
> >   opportunity to become Debian Developers.
> > 
> > The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> > 
> > * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
> >   Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
> > 
> > * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
> >   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
> > 
> > * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
> >   non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
> >   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
> >   infrastructure.
> 
> I like that a lot more than the other wording, thus seconded.

Please don't go and make this more confusing for me.  As far as I
can tell this wasn't meant to be amendment yet.  He will probably
accept this or something simular as amendment replacing the
orignal text.  So at that time I could put you down as someone
that seconds that proposal.  You now basicly seem to have created
a second proposal.


Kurt



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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:00:32PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:26:59AM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > If we go for DDs without upload rights, I think that we should be
> > extremely careful about not transforming this new kind of DDs into
> > second-class members of the project. A way to do that is to avoid
> > giving them a name, and emphasize the fact that they are DDs, not
> > another sub-kind of project members. The "no upload rights" part would
> > just be a minor technical distinction.
> 
> ... and who am I to disagree with a proposal which find consensus from
> Lucas to Ganneff, passing through Lars and Russ? :-)
> 
> Attached you can find a tentative wording of a proposal which remove the
> term "Debian Contributors", pretty similar to the version I had before
> posting (shame on me for changing that!), but maybe a bit better in that
> it doesn't the horrible "non-uploading Debian Developer". How about it?
> I don't consider this as something that changes the meaning of the
> original GR text.
> 
> I'll let the patch linger for a couple of days -- actually, I'll be away
> for most part of tomorrow -- and then I'll apply it, posting a new
> complete draft here shortly thereafter.

So I'm not considering this currently as an amendment.


Kurt


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Joey Hess]

Paul Wise wrote:
> Stefano you seem to be 5 years too late with this GR, fjp's AM report
> looks like he was accepted primarily for his work on documentation and
> translations:
> 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2005/02/msg00017.html

Not really. From my original advocation of Frans:
| Basically, Frans is now one of the relatively few core d-i developers.
| I've watched him grow from a smaller contriutor to the project
| (originally he was working only on the installation manual), learn all
| the details of working with packages and d-i and now he's everywhere,
| working on lots of different parts of d-i, from working on
| network-console and the s390 port to processing installation reports and
| helping users. He's made the whole thing seem impressively effortless,
| while at the same time clearly putting a lot of work into the project.
| Frans is exactly the kind of person we need more of on this project and
| he deserves to be an official member of it.

> In addition, as cate pointed out, the constitution already allows
> DAM/FD to accept such people.

And it *has* happened. For example, Mattias Wadenstein is a
non-packaging DD. He works on CD building and mirroring. Here's his AM
report from 2004: http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2004/09/msg00033.html

-- 
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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Charles Plessy]

Le Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:01:47PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:16:00PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > It seems to me that, if “albeit without upload access to the Debian
> > archive” were removed, it would not close the possibility for the
> > people in charge to difference of status.
> 
> > Would such a change be a happy end for everybody ?
> 
> Sorry, but I really can't accept that as a simple editorial change to
> the text I've proposed.  To go that way, please check my discussion
> points in .

In case there is a doubt: my intention is not to ask Stefano if he thinks that
the proposed change is good for everybody, but it is to ask everybody who may
care, in particular the Debian application managers and front desk, if the
proposed change would be welcome…

Good night,

-- 
Charles


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt]

Hi,

Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
>
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
>
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
>
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
>
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
>
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
>
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
>
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

Seconded. Thanks for finally pushing this to a GR.

Marc
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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:16:00PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> It seems to me that, if “albeit without upload access to the Debian
> archive” were removed, it would not close the possibility for the
> people in charge to difference of status.

> Would such a change be a happy end for everybody ?

Sorry, but I really can't accept that as a simple editorial change to
the text I've proposed.  To go that way, please check my discussion
points in .

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 15/09/10 at 21:00 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> Attached you can find a tentative wording of a proposal which remove the
> term "Debian Contributors", pretty similar to the version I had before
> posting (shame on me for changing that!), but maybe a bit better in that
> it doesn't the horrible "non-uploading Debian Developer". How about it?
> I don't consider this as something that changes the meaning of the
> original GR text.

Much better, thanks a lot!

I'm wondering whether we should write in stone (= in the GR) that people
should not try to come up with a sexy name for DDs without upload access
to the Debian archive. This discussion might be enough.

 - Lucas


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:20:54PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 04:04:24PM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> > > * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
> > >   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
> > >   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> > 
> > to become
> > or if you prefer:
> > of becoming
> 
> I bow to the superior knowledge of the British language :-) (and I
> encourage anyone to point out similar fixes).
> 
> I hereby accept this as an editorial change that does not affect the
> meaning of the proposal.
> 
> GR text is now also available at http://git.debian.org/?p=dpl/dpl.git

In a similar vein, I propose a few changes (which add cosmetic fixes,
and to my best knowledge, do not alter the meaning in any way). I
attach my patch inline, as well as separately, to be sure at least one
of them works!

Thanks.

Kumar

From c6397c766cd298d7cd361910d35ece7046e5bb1f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Kumar Appaiah 
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:27:17 -0500
Subject: [PATCH] Add punctuation and fix some pronouns.

---
 gr/debian-contributors.txt |8 
 1 files changed, 4 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/gr/debian-contributors.txt b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
index 11e9192..0bb4e73 100644
--- a/gr/debian-contributors.txt
+++ b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
-To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
-including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
+To that end, the project benefits from various types of contributions,
+including, but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
 infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
 fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
 quality assurance, etc.
@@ -10,11 +10,11 @@ The Debian project acknowledges that:
 * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
 
-* Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
+* Active contributors of non-packaging work, who share Debian values
   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
   opportunity to become Debian project members.
 
-The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
+The Debian project, therefore, invites the Debian Account Managers to:
 
 * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
-- 
1.7.1
From c6397c766cd298d7cd361910d35ece7046e5bb1f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Kumar Appaiah 
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:27:17 -0500
Subject: [PATCH] Add punctuation and fix some pronouns.

---
 gr/debian-contributors.txt |8 
 1 files changed, 4 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/gr/debian-contributors.txt b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
index 11e9192..0bb4e73 100644
--- a/gr/debian-contributors.txt
+++ b/gr/debian-contributors.txt
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
-To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
-including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
+To that end, the project benefits from various types of contributions,
+including, but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
 infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
 fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
 quality assurance, etc.
@@ -10,11 +10,11 @@ The Debian project acknowledges that:
 * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
 
-* Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
+* Active contributors of non-packaging work, who share Debian values
   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
   opportunity to become Debian project members.
 
-The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
+The Debian project, therefore, invites the Debian Account Managers to:
 
 * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
-- 
1.7.1



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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 02:13:12PM +0200, Simon Richter wrote:
> I like that a lot more than the other wording, thus seconded.

Thanks for your appreciation, but wait! :-) There are no need of seconds
for this change (unless some of the previous seconders considers it
unfaithful with respect to the meaning of the previous text; I don't).

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, |  .  |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Charles Plessy]

Le Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:00:32PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
>   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
>   non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
>   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
>   infrastructure.

It seems to me that, if “albeit without upload access to the Debian archive”
were removed, it would not close the possibility for the people in charge to
restrict upload capacities of developers who do not need them (do-o-cracy),
while at the same time it would make the GR more neutral, focusing it on
acceptance of new members, without suggesting restriction and therefore
difference of status.

Would such a change be a happy end for everybody ?

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Simon Richter]

Hi,

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:00:32PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity to become Debian Developers.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
>   non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
>   non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
>   participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
>   infrastructure.

I like that a lot more than the other wording, thus seconded.

   Simon


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:26:59AM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> If we go for DDs without upload rights, I think that we should be
> extremely careful about not transforming this new kind of DDs into
> second-class members of the project. A way to do that is to avoid
> giving them a name, and emphasize the fact that they are DDs, not
> another sub-kind of project members. The "no upload rights" part would
> just be a minor technical distinction.

... and who am I to disagree with a proposal which find consensus from
Lucas to Ganneff, passing through Lars and Russ? :-)

Attached you can find a tentative wording of a proposal which remove the
term "Debian Contributors", pretty similar to the version I had before
posting (shame on me for changing that!), but maybe a bit better in that
it doesn't the horrible "non-uploading Debian Developer". How about it?
I don't consider this as something that changes the meaning of the
original GR text.

I'll let the patch linger for a couple of days — actually, I'll be away
for most part of tomorrow — and then I'll apply it, posting a new
complete draft here shortly thereafter.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, |  .  |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
quality assurance, etc.

The Debian project acknowledges that:

* To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
  other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.

* Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
  and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
  opportunity to become Debian Developers.

The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:

* Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
  Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.

* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
  non-packaging work as Debian Developers.

* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
  non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
  participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
  infrastructure.
--- debian-contributors.txt	2010-09-15 20:54:06.0 +0900
+++ /tmp/debian-contributors.txt	2010-09-15 20:54:04.507770573 +0900
@@ -12,16 +12,17 @@
 
 * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
-  opportunity to become Debian project members.
+  opportunity to become Debian Developers.
 
 The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
 
 * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
-  Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
-  new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
+  Debian Developers, albeit without upload access to the Debian archive.
 
-* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
+* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept contributors of
+  non-packaging work as Debian Developers.
 
-* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
-  Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
-  Debian infrastructure.
+* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable contributors of
+  non-packaging work, which get accepted as Debian Developers, to
+  participate in Debian decision making and to access Debian
+  infrastructure.
The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
quality assurance, etc.

The Debian project acknowledges that:

* To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
  other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.

* Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
  and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
  opportunity to become Debian [-project members.-] {+Developers.+}

The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:

* Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
  Debian [-Developers-] {+Developers, albeit+} without upload [-rights-] 
{+access+} to the De

Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Steve McIntyre]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:26:59AM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
>
>If we go for DDs without upload rights, I think that we should be
>extremely careful about not transforming this new kind of DDs into second-class
>members of the project. A way to do that is to avoid giving them a name,
>and emphasize the fact that they are DDs, not another sub-kind of
>project members. The "no upload rights" part would just be a minor
>technical distinction.
>
>Another way to put it is, imagine you are a DC, and are writing your CV.
>What should you write about your status in Debian? "Debian Contributor"?
>"Debian Developer"? If we create the "Debian Contributor" term, then I'm
>sure that for many DCs, it will be difficult to write "Debian Developer"
>there (Imposter Syndrome, etc), even if that's what should really be
>written, since their contributions to Debian are not less important than
>those of other DDs.
>
>Just leaving it up to DAM to choose a term would not be enough to avoid
>that. IMHO, DDs without upload rights should not have any sexy name, and
>the distinction between them and DDs with upload rights should only be
>made where it's necessary.

Definitely.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"C++ ate my sanity" -- Jon Rabone


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Xavier Oswald]

On 09:26 Wed 15 Sep , Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> If we go for DDs without upload rights, I think that we should be
> extremely careful about not transforming this new kind of DDs into 
> second-class
> members of the project. A way to do that is to avoid giving them a name,
> and emphasize the fact that they are DDs, not another sub-kind of
> project members. The "no upload rights" part would just be a minor
> technical distinction.

+1.

I think we should not go to some kind of discrimination about terms.
For example, people writing documentations are as importants as DDs but they
don't need so much access than a DDs should need. A project is a whole and have
members. Official members in Debian are called DD. And I think DD is a good
choice since "developer" can be used in several contexts. For me, I see more the
term "developer" as development inside and around the project.


What we could have is.

Case 1.
===

Debian Developer ---> Unlimited upload access
  |-> Documentation R/W access
  |-> FTP-Master
  |-> Release manager

Case 2.
===

Debian Developer ---> Upload access on personnal packages
  |-> Documentation R/W access 

Case N.
===

Debian Developer ---> access to ...
  |-> access to ...


I see a DD more as a project member instead of a specific member.

To attribute rights we could have procedures like we have NM process for
having Unlimited upload access. The documentation team could have some templates
and follow contributors for attributing the DD status with Documentation R/W
access. And all DD should have voting rights.

Well it's just some ideas I have in mind and wanted to tell here. Maybe Im
pushing things to far.

Greetings,
-- 
Xavier Oswald 
GNU/Linux Debian Developer - http://www.debian.org/
GPG key ID: 0x464B8DE3


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Sep 14, 2010 mat 06:29:24PM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit :
> Charles Plessy  writes:
> 
> > after seeing the torrent of seconds, I am still puzzled if this GR is a
> > progress or a regression: is the take home message that Debian should be
> > more open, or that some members must not have upload rights ? When a
> > member does not have upload rights, is it for the principle of least
> > needed priviledge, which suggests that getting that prividedge may be
> > granted automaticaly later with the need, or because that member is not
> > trusted to be able to upload correctly ?
> 
> Well, if one isn't interested in upload rights, there's no need for one to
> qualify on upload rights during NM, which implies omitting or at least
> much abbreviating the Tasks and Skills part of NM.  But if we want to
> maintain the policy that anyone with general upload rights complete Tasks
> and Skills for package uploads, we wouldn't want to extend those rights
> later without having the person go through NM.

I think that this is where our point of view differ the most. I think that
somebody who was accepted as a member, because he showed enough reliability in
his work, respect for our procedures and commitment in his contributions, does
not need to qualify again to start uploading packages when his contribution
eventually evolves in that direction.

We are proud to be a do-o-cracy. I think that we can let our members to
demonstrate their capacities by giving them the opportunity of doing the things
right, instead of passing certificates. If we trust somebody to manage
correctly his SSH and GPG keys and prevent from bad people stealing his
identity and loging in our machines with bad intentions, then I think that we
must trust that person to not do rogue NMUs nor upload to NEW packages that they
do not have the capacity to maintain.

More in general, I think that the principle of least priviledge is best applied
when a large majority do not need them (like driving trucks and airplanes, or
logging in some machines at the core of our infrastructure), but is not much
benefical when it is about managing a minority.

But the core of my disagreement is not about priviledge management, which
already takes place for other operations than upload, but classifying DDs
through the passage of certificates, since in my understanting a DC will be a
DD for whom it will be remembered that T&C was not passed, and who will not be
able to upload until he passes that test.

I have to say that I am also worried that this is just the beginning of a more
comprehensive categorization of the roles within Debian. The application
managers and the front desk are doing great work in managing the request to
join our project, but I object extending their role to manage the access of the
DDs to the components of our architecture.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Lars Wirzenius]

On ke, 2010-09-15 at 09:26 +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> If we go for DDs without upload rights, I think that we should be
> extremely careful about not transforming this new kind of DDs into 
> second-class
> members of the project. A way to do that is to avoid giving them a name,
> and emphasize the fact that they are DDs, not another sub-kind of
> project members. The "no upload rights" part would just be a minor
> technical distinction.
> 
> Another way to put it is, imagine you are a DC, and are writing your CV.
> What should you write about your status in Debian? "Debian Contributor"?
> "Debian Developer"? If we create the "Debian Contributor" term, then I'm
> sure that for many DCs, it will be difficult to write "Debian Developer"
> there (Imposter Syndrome, etc), even if that's what should really be
> written, since their contributions to Debian are not less important than
> those of other DDs.
> 
> Just leaving it up to DAM to choose a term would not be enough to avoid
> that. IMHO, DDs without upload rights should not have any sexy name, and
> the distinction between them and DDs with upload rights should only be
> made where it's necessary.
> 
> I don't think that the IRC conversation example you gave is a convincing
> one. It wouldn't hurt much to write "I'm a DD without upload rights"
> instead of "I'm a Debian Contributor" (it's only 6 characters more!).

I fully agree with Lucas.



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Naming of non-uploading DDs (Was: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members)

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 15/09/10 at 12:08 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> Naming  (raised by at least Luca and Lars [8,9])
> ==
> 
> Ah, what a mess!
> 
> Until a few minutes before posting the GR proposal, the text contained a
> s/Debian Members/non-uploading Debian Developers/ and before that
> several more s/// have been applied on drafts. So, believe me, I fully
> understand the puzzling about the name.
> 
> Let's make it clear that the "new role" we are introducing is not
> something different than DDs from the POV of constitution. We are just
> saying that we accept as DDs (called in the constitution both
> "developers" and "project members") people who contribute stuff other
> than packaging work. Those people will be "Debian Developer", no
> question. The problem is that in practice we will *need* a name to
> distinguish on the basis of upload rights (e.g. imagine an IRC
> conversation on the topic of "can you sponsor this upload of
> mine?"). Either we propose a name while introducing the concept, or it
> will be chosen by folklore and I don't believe that would be wise.
> 
> In principle, nothing stops us from leaving the name out of the GR and
> leave up to DAM to select one, as suggested by Luca [8]. The advantage
> of that is we will not tie our hands with a specific name. The drawback
> is that, will start to talk about the new role anyhow, without waiting
> for a proper name blessing. Considering all of the above, I thought that
> going for "Debian Contributor" was the better solution.
> 
> If there is consensus in leaving the name out of the GR, I can apply
> back the above substitution. I consider that as something that "do not
> alter the meaning" of the GR and is hence something I can do without
> much disruption.

If we go for DDs without upload rights, I think that we should be
extremely careful about not transforming this new kind of DDs into second-class
members of the project. A way to do that is to avoid giving them a name,
and emphasize the fact that they are DDs, not another sub-kind of
project members. The "no upload rights" part would just be a minor
technical distinction.

Another way to put it is, imagine you are a DC, and are writing your CV.
What should you write about your status in Debian? "Debian Contributor"?
"Debian Developer"? If we create the "Debian Contributor" term, then I'm
sure that for many DCs, it will be difficult to write "Debian Developer"
there (Imposter Syndrome, etc), even if that's what should really be
written, since their contributions to Debian are not less important than
those of other DDs.

Just leaving it up to DAM to choose a term would not be enough to avoid
that. IMHO, DDs without upload rights should not have any sexy name, and
the distinction between them and DDs with upload rights should only be
made where it's necessary.

I don't think that the IRC conversation example you gave is a convincing
one. It wouldn't hurt much to write "I'm a DD without upload rights"
instead of "I'm a Debian Contributor" (it's only 6 characters more!).

 - Lucas


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 04:04:24PM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> > * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
> >   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
> >   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> to become
> or if you prefer:
> of becoming

I bow to the superior knowledge of the British language :-) (and I
encourage anyone to point out similar fixes).

I hereby accept this as an editorial change that does not affect the
meaning of the proposal.

GR text is now also available at http://git.debian.org/?p=dpl/dpl.git

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> [ Draft GR text below, look for "-".  M-F-T set to -vote. ]

[ Disclaimer: I'm attending an academic conference this week and I'll be
  at the Italian mini-DebConf in the week-end. That's why I'll be
  sluggish in participating to this discussion until next week. ]

First of all thanks for the warm welcome of this proposal! From the
discussion thus far, I see three main topics emerging and I'll briefly
comment about them below


Is this GR needed?  (raised by at least Giacomo and Paul [1,10])
==

I'm very well aware that DAM already has all the needed powers to
implement this change. Still there are 2 reasons to have a GR.

The first reason is past history. DAM did advance a related proposal in
the past. We might consider it as flawed as we please, but that does not
change the fact that it has been overruled by the project [2]. Since we
are all humans, it is very unlikely at this point that DAM will pursue
further the goal without explicit project approval. This GR is meant to
verify what the project wants and possibly ask DAM to implement it.

The second reason is that cases as the one Paul mentions have been only
sporadic exceptions thus far, nothing more. That has the defects of
making the exceptions practically invisible and does nothing to change
the widespread culture that "you need to be a packager to be a DD".
Having a clear project vote on the matter will *also* send out a clear
message of where the Debian project stands on this matter.

  [1]  http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00048.html
  [2]  http://www.debian.org/vote/2008/vote_002
  [10] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg6.html


Upload rights  (raised by at least Lars, Lucas, and Charles [3,4,5])
=

Let me go back on why I have advanced this proposal. I believe one of
the problem Debian needs to face is acknowledging contributions of
non-packagers. Many teams out there have worked with non-DDs on loads of
non-packaging stuff: translations, wiki maintenance, porting, and all of
the other examples mentioned in the beginning of the GR, and more. Most
of those people understand Debian values as much as packagers do and
feel excluded from Debian just because they don't master debhelper or
maintainer scripts. Due to the reasons mentioned above, DAM and Front
Desk are unlikely to accept them as DDs as of today.

The proposed GR aims at solving *that* problem and I believe we should
keep it in mind.

I understand and I'm sympathetic of arguments about trust and "2nd class
Debian citizens", but the problem we're trying to solve here is more
pragmatic than that. Additionally, those people are generally not
interested in upload rights, so I left upload rights out of the GR on
purpose, because I think we have a simpler solution at hand's reach.

Finally, leaving upload rights out of the GR might enable a much swifter
membership procedure. In the current NM process, T&S is essentially a
packaging qualification (either by templates or — more common these days
— by reviewing past work) exactly because people will have upload
rights.

Russ have surely explained all of above way better than me [6,7].

But the whole point of this GR is having a project-wide decision, not
one of mine. Therefore if there is support for the "with full upload
rights" position, I would welcome an amendment in that direction and I'm
also ready to second it to ensure that all relevant positions are
represented in the ballot.  Still, I would appreciate discussion on the
above points before such an amendment is advanced.  I also believe GRs
should not be used as hammers on the heads of working teams, until they
are really needed; hence I also recommend to seek comments from DAM and
Front Desk on a draft amendment before making it formal.

  [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00017.html
  [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00028.html
  [5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00010.html
  [6] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00045.html
  [7] http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2010/09/msg00049.html


Naming  (raised by at least Luca and Lars [8,9])
==

Ah, what a mess!

Until a few minutes before posting the GR proposal, the text contained a
s/Debian Members/non-uploading Debian Developers/ and before that
several more s/// have been applied on drafts. So, believe me, I fully
understand the puzzling about the name.

Let's make it clear that the "new role" we are introducing is not
something different than DDs from the POV of constitution. We are just
saying that we accept as DDs (called in the constitution both
"developers" and "project members") people who contribute stuff other
than packaging work. Those people will be "Debian Developer", no
question. The problem is that in practice we will *need* a name to
distinguish on the basis of upload rights (e.g. imagi

Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Kumar Appaiah
 wrote:

> The word "Debian Developer" seems to have become synonymous with
> those who package or write software for Debian. Whether that was
> intentional or unintentional is not known to me, but this aspect is
> what several potential contributors seem to know very well, and this
> demographic applies to enter Debian via the packaging route.
>
> While the NM process and related documentation is very clear on
> allowing non-packaging contributors, I feel that more can be done to
> encourage non-packaging contributors to take this route, and this
> step, I felt, is one in that direction.
>
> Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Very much correct.

I personally would have thought the right way to correct the public
perception that NM is not for non-packaging contributors would be to
use our (newish) publicity team or a "Bits from DAM/FD" mail on d-d-a
rather than start a GR. On the other hand, the GR has already had some
publicity:

http://lwn.net/Articles/404954/rss

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Kumar Appaiah]

Dear Paul,

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:25:09AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> Stefano you seem to be 5 years too late with this GR, fjp's AM report
> looks like he was accepted primarily for his work on documentation and
> translations:
> 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2005/02/msg00017.html
> 
> In addition, as cate pointed out, the constitution already allows
> DAM/FD to accept such people.

While this may be true, I have a point to make.

The word "Debian Developer" seems to have become synonymous with
those who package or write software for Debian. Whether that was
intentional or unintentional is not known to me, but this aspect is
what several potential contributors seem to know very well, and this
demographic applies to enter Debian via the packaging route.

While the NM process and related documentation is very clear on
allowing non-packaging contributors, I feel that more can be done to
encourage non-packaging contributors to take this route, and this
step, I felt, is one in that direction.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks!

Kumar
-- 
This kernel runs like a dessicated slug if you have more than 2G of memory
due to a 32-bit overflow.

-- Andrew Morton, on Linux 2.6.8-rc1-mm1


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Russ Allbery]

Charles Plessy  writes:

> after seeing the torrent of seconds, I am still puzzled if this GR is a
> progress or a regression: is the take home message that Debian should be
> more open, or that some members must not have upload rights ? When a
> member does not have upload rights, is it for the principle of least
> needed priviledge, which suggests that getting that prividedge may be
> granted automaticaly later with the need, or because that member is not
> trusted to be able to upload correctly ?

Well, if one isn't interested in upload rights, there's no need for one to
qualify on upload rights during NM, which implies omitting or at least
much abbreviating the Tasks and Skills part of NM.  But if we want to
maintain the policy that anyone with general upload rights complete Tasks
and Skills for package uploads, we wouldn't want to extend those rights
later without having the person go through NM.

I see this as a step towards making NM more modular.  Qualification on
general package upload is now a "module" that is optional in NM if you're
not interested in contributing in that way, but of course you don't get
that access until you qualify.

I don't know if the process is the same elsewhere as it is in the US, but
in the US you have to take an exam to get a driver's license, which
qualifies you to drive standard cars on public roads.  If you want to
qualify for motorcycles, you have to take a separate exam; similarly for
commercial trucks.  To me, that feels like the direction we should be
heading for in NM.  Separate privileges require separate qualification.
Right now, we qualify all DDs for everything with some manually-handled
exceptions, but really Policy and Procedures is the only universal
qualification for all DDs (I think).  All the other stuff, like general
package upload, is a separate "module," sort of like qualifying for
motorcycles in addition to regular cars.  I could see adding additional
things like that in the long run; for example, login to porter boxes could
be a separate module with some qualification (such as reading and
understanding the usage policy).

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Paul Wise]

Stefano you seem to be 5 years too late with this GR, fjp's AM report
looks like he was accepted primarily for his work on documentation and
translations:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2005/02/msg00017.html

In addition, as cate pointed out, the constitution already allows
DAM/FD to accept such people.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 06:56:01PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit :
> 
> My own preference is [B] > [A] > [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to
> hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either
> [A] or [B].

Hi Lucas and everybody,

after seeing the torrent of seconds, I am still puzzled if this GR is a
progress or a regression: is the take home message that Debian should be more
open, or that some members must not have upload rights ? When a member does not
have upload rights, is it for the principle of least needed priviledge, which
suggests that getting that prividedge may be granted automaticaly later with
the need, or because that member is not trusted to be able to upload
correctly ?

I would welcome clarifications in the GR text. Alternatively, I am willing to
second amendements like the ones you propose, or to help with the drafting if
you need.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Russ Allbery]

Christoph Berg  writes:
> Re: Luca Bruno 2010-09-14 <20100914120120.c0d3f45b.lu...@debian.org>

>> I'd thus propose not to call them Debian Contributors (DC) now, and let
>> NM/DAM team pick an appropriate name when reforming the procedures.

> The idea was discussed, and that's the name we came up with. If
> someone has a better idea, please tell us, and I'm sure zack will
> update the proposal.

I just don't want to get into a situation where we can't change it later.
Maybe just make it explicit in the GR that this is an initial name and may
be changed later by the appropriate delegates?

This is probably nit-picky rules lawyering, but we ran into a similar
problem with the Debian Maintainer GR, which standardized a packaging
field in a way that it's now unclear what the change process for that
field is.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Russ Allbery]

Charles Plessy  writes:

> I agree with the above, accepting as DDs contributors who do not
> maintain packages, but your proposal is different: it establishes a new
> class of project members, who differ by not having upload rights.

> I suppose that the goal is to avoid disruptive NMUs and damage to our
> infrastructure in case their GPG key is compromised. But do you think
> that this is more likely to happen with developers who do not maintain
> packages, compared with developers who do?

Principle of least privilege in security says that people who do not need
upload rights should not have them even if they're entirely trustworthy
people.  Their GPG keys could be compromised through no fault of their
own, and since they're not using the access, there's no reason to add to
the security risk by adding more keys to the trusted set for uploads.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Gilles Filippini]

Hi,

Lucas Nussbaum a écrit , Le 14/09/2010 18:56:
> While I support welcoming non-packaging contributors as project members,
> I am concerned that we are creating the concept of second-class DDs (or
> at least, that it will be communicated like that).
> 
> I see two different ways to avoid that:
> 
> [A] Avoid giving DDs without upload rights any special name or title
> (like "Debian Contributors"). Their official title should be "Debian
> Developers", and they should only be special-cased in the documents
> where the distinction between DDs with upload rights and DDs without
> upload rights is important.
> 
> [B] Give everybody upload rights anyway. If we trust them to influence
> the project's decisions through voting, we should probably trust them to
> do the right thing and not upload packages when they don't feel
> qualified to. After all, I am a DD, I have the technical power to make
> changes to eglibc and upload it, but I should probably not do that. Why
> am I treated differently from DCs in that regard?
> Of course, we have a problem with security, and it's probably not very
> reasonable to have 1000 DDs able to upload every package, and connect to
> every project machine. So I think that we could use this GR to ask DSA,
> DAM and keyring-maint to investigate changes to the Debian
> infrastructure that would mitigate security issues in the case of a
> compromise of a DD's credentials.  Examples, just to illustrate what I'm
> thinking about:
> - create a "limited upload rights mode", where DDs would only be allowed
>   to upload their own packages. Action from the DD, like a login on
>   db.debian.org, would be required to switch to "full upload rights
>   mode", and that mode would auto-expire after a month without any
>   upload.
> - do something similar for access to project machines.
> 
> 
> My own preference is [B] > [A] > [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to
> hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either
> [A] or [B].

I second Lucas' proposal, with the very same preference order.

Thanks,

_gilles.



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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Gerfried Fuchs]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi!

 This time with the key that's still in the keyring, only noticed after
sending that I haven't got it replaced in the keyring yet.

* Stefano Zacchiroli  [2010-09-14 10:53:46 CEST]:
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

 Wholeheartly seconed, for all the longstanding website translators.
Rhonda
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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Lars Wirzenius]

On ti, 2010-09-14 at 18:56 +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> My own preference is [B] > [A] > [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to
> hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either
> [A] or [B].

I'd prefer [A] == [B] > [original GR proposal] > [NOTA].



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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Damien Raude-Morvan]

Hi,

Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 10:53:46, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

I second this proposal.
[This time with a key from the keyring]

Cheers,
-- 
Damien - Debian Developper
http://wiki.debian.org/DamienRaudeMorvan


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 07:42:58PM +0200, Damien Raude-Morvan wrote:
> 
> I second this proposal.

This message was signed with a key not in the keyring.


Kurt


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 01:04:32PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
> 
>  Wholeheartly seconed, for all the longstanding website translators.

This isn't signed with a key in the keyring.


Kurt


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Christoph Berg]

Re: Gunnar Wolf 2010-09-14 <20100914170611.ge26...@gwolf.org>
> Yes, the naming clearly stems from when we were a flatter, simpler
> project with all-or-nothing participation. But we now have Debian
> developers which are not DDs, Debian maintainers which are not DM, and
> will surely have Debian contributors which are not DCs.

I don't think the confusion is that bad with Developers. Maintainers
that are not Debian Maintainers is an unfortunate misnomer, ack. For
Contributors, the discussion period is open :)

> I'm thinking... If DD could be seen as an aggregation of privileges
> (such as what I said in my previous mail, that DC+DM≈DD), adding just
> one more step could make the process complete. Something along the
> following lines, and bear with me with the ugly namings:

The equation does not hold. DM is much less than DD - no new binaries,
and the entry barrier is way lower. There is no P&P or T&S for DMs.

> Current   nameNew name
> Debian Developer  Debian Full Member
> Debian Maintainer Debian Restricted Package Uploader
> (none)Debian Package Uploader
> Debian ContributorDebian Nontechnical Member

The names you propose sound very technical. I would prefer if we go
for something nice. (I'm pretty sure that most of us want to keep the
"Developer" title.)

Christoph
-- 
c...@df7cb.de | http://www.df7cb.de/


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Christoph Egger]

Jakub Wilk  writes:
> * Lucas Nussbaum , 2010-09-14, 18:56:
>>[B] Give everybody upload rights anyway. If we trust them to influence
>>the project's decisions through voting, we should probably trust them to
>>do the right thing and not upload packages when they don't feel
>>qualified to. After all, I am a DD, I have the technical power to make
>>changes to eglibc and upload it, but I should probably not do that. Why
>>am I treated differently from DCs in that regard?
>>
>>My own preference is [B] > [A] > [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to
>>hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either
>>[A] or [B].
>
> Same here.

I'd also be interested in an amandment for [B] at least.

Regards

Christoph

-- 
9FED 5C6C E206 B70A 5857  70CA 9655 22B9 D49A E731
Debian Developer | Lisp Hacker | CaCert Assurer

A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q. Why is top posting bad?


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Jakub Wilk]

* Jakub Wilk , 2010-09-14, 19:18:

* Lucas Nussbaum , 2010-09-14, 18:56:

My own preference is [B] > [A] > [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to
hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either
[A] or [B].


Same here.


Just to clarify: I agree both with Lucas ranking and that it'd nice to 
hear others' opinions.


--
Jakub Wilk


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Damien Raude-Morvan]

Hi,

Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 10:53:46, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

I second this proposal.

Cheers,
-- 
Damien - Debian Developper
http://wiki.debian.org/DamienRaudeMorvan


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Ralf Treinen]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

Seconded. -Ralf.


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Jakub Wilk]

* Lucas Nussbaum , 2010-09-14, 18:56:

While I support welcoming non-packaging contributors as project members,
I am concerned that we are creating the concept of second-class DDs (or
at least, that it will be communicated like that).

I see two different ways to avoid that:

[A] Avoid giving DDs without upload rights any special name or title
(like "Debian Contributors"). Their official title should be "Debian
Developers", and they should only be special-cased in the documents
where the distinction between DDs with upload rights and DDs without
upload rights is important.

[B] Give everybody upload rights anyway. If we trust them to influence
the project's decisions through voting, we should probably trust them to
do the right thing and not upload packages when they don't feel
qualified to. After all, I am a DD, I have the technical power to make
changes to eglibc and upload it, but I should probably not do that. Why
am I treated differently from DCs in that regard?
Of course, we have a problem with security, and it's probably not very
reasonable to have 1000 DDs able to upload every package, and connect to
every project machine. So I think that we could use this GR to ask DSA,
DAM and keyring-maint to investigate changes to the Debian
infrastructure that would mitigate security issues in the case of a
compromise of a DD's credentials.  Examples, just to illustrate what I'm
thinking about:
- create a "limited upload rights mode", where DDs would only be allowed
 to upload their own packages. Action from the DD, like a login on
 db.debian.org, would be required to switch to "full upload rights
 mode", and that mode would auto-expire after a month without any
 upload.
- do something similar for access to project machines.


My own preference is [B] > [A] > [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to
hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either
[A] or [B].


Same here.

--
Jakub Wilk


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Gunnar Wolf]

Lars Wirzenius dijo [Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:41:24PM +0100]:
> > We are calling everyone "Debian Developer" (cf. the constitution). DCs
> > are a subset of DDs. We realize that we probably need a handy
> > expression for "DD with upload rights" [1], but we don't have one yet.
> > (Ideas?)
> 
> Could we please instead not invent new names and call ourselves "DD with
> upload rights" and "DD without upload rights"? We already have a problem
> with terminology for various kinds of memberships. Let's not make it
> worse.

Heh, we are pulling in opposite directions, although I don't have any
deep committment for the ideas I just wrote. The reason I wrote that
is that, as we grew from something quite informal, we used very
generic naming schemes - and that leads to lack of clarity in the
concepts it defines. I believe that having clearer meanings for the
member, uh, levels will make it easier for an outsider to understand
what do we mean.

> > I do agree with the idea, but it opens up gray areas. There will be
> > DCs who maintain some (maybe documentation-only?) packages, and will
> > become DM for these. With the no-difference idea, it is unclear where
> > the line to "classic DD" is. And voila, you end up being a fully
> > uploading DD who has skipped T&S in the NM process.
> > 
> > It's probably possible to do, but it has to be well-thought. Making
> > T&S a formal (and technical) prerequisite to the "uploading" part cuts
> > a clear line.
> 
> I re-iterate that I think the important distinction is one of trust. Not
> skills.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Still, when I passed T&S, and now
when I process my NMs' T&S, I learnt many important things I have
found useful and would not have come accross otherwise.


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Faidon Liambotis]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.

Seconded.

Still worried about terminology, but this is too important to hold it
off for such details.

Regards,
Faidon


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Gunnar Wolf]

Christoph Berg dijo [Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:30:57PM +0200]:
> > As we still remember the big "on terminology" thread[0] and we don't
> > want here to create more confusion nor to start the big renaming race,
> > I think it will be better to leave terminology out of this GR, as this
> > will introduce even more ambiguity: aren't sponsored packagers
> > debian contributors(lowercase) too?
> 
> Any name will be generic to some extend, unless it is long and ugly.
> 
> > I'd thus propose not to call them Debian Contributors (DC) now, and let
> > NM/DAM team pick an appropriate name when reforming the procedures.
> 
> The idea was discussed, and that's the name we came up with. If
> someone has a better idea, please tell us, and I'm sure zack will
> update the proposal.

Yes, the naming clearly stems from when we were a flatter, simpler
project with all-or-nothing participation. But we now have Debian
developers which are not DDs, Debian maintainers which are not DM, and
will surely have Debian contributors which are not DCs.

I'm thinking... If DD could be seen as an aggregation of privileges
(such as what I said in my previous mail, that DC+DM≈DD), adding just
one more step could make the process complete. Something along the
following lines, and bear with me with the ugly namings:

Current nameNew name
Debian DeveloperDebian Full Member
Debian Maintainer   Debian Restricted Package Uploader
(none)  Debian Package Uploader
Debian Contributor  Debian Nontechnical Member

So, a DPU would be basically what today is a DM (or what I called a
DRPU), plus the ability to upload arbitrary packages, including NMUs.

A DNM would have all non-packaging-related privileges - voting,
debian.org mail forward. Machine accounts seems something vague which
could be here or in DPU. 

And a DFM would be what we currently have as DDs - the sum of
privileges. 


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Gunnar Wolf]

MJ Ray dijo [Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 11:26:01AM +0100]:
> "Giacomo A. Catenazzi" 
> > So you are already free to do it by delegating. A GR would be used
> > to overrule your decision, but, as you already noted, there is
> > already a general consensus on the issue.
> 
> Equally, the DPL is empowered to start a GR to do this.  I'm very
> happy to see a DPL checking that there really is consensus.
> We don't have a great history of GRs overruling decisions, do we?

Yes, I also think this is what is sought - The GR does not even define
tightly what a DC would do, I think it would be almost complementary
to DM (i.e. "everything a DD can do except for package uploads" - That
means, voting rights, mail redirection, possibly having an account on
project machines?)

In fact... hmmm... Would you agree that DC+DM≈DD? So, we could
basically end up restructuring the NM process with DC and DM as
"modules"? 

Greetings,


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Lucas Nussbaum]

Hi,

While I support welcoming non-packaging contributors as project members,
I am concerned that we are creating the concept of second-class DDs (or
at least, that it will be communicated like that).

I see two different ways to avoid that:

[A] Avoid giving DDs without upload rights any special name or title
(like "Debian Contributors"). Their official title should be "Debian
Developers", and they should only be special-cased in the documents
where the distinction between DDs with upload rights and DDs without
upload rights is important.

[B] Give everybody upload rights anyway. If we trust them to influence
the project's decisions through voting, we should probably trust them to
do the right thing and not upload packages when they don't feel
qualified to. After all, I am a DD, I have the technical power to make
changes to eglibc and upload it, but I should probably not do that. Why
am I treated differently from DCs in that regard?
Of course, we have a problem with security, and it's probably not very
reasonable to have 1000 DDs able to upload every package, and connect to
every project machine. So I think that we could use this GR to ask DSA,
DAM and keyring-maint to investigate changes to the Debian
infrastructure that would mitigate security issues in the case of a
compromise of a DD's credentials.  Examples, just to illustrate what I'm
thinking about:
- create a "limited upload rights mode", where DDs would only be allowed
  to upload their own packages. Action from the DD, like a login on
  db.debian.org, would be required to switch to "full upload rights
  mode", and that mode would auto-expire after a month without any
  upload.
- do something similar for access to project machines.


My own preference is [B] > [A] > [original GR proposal]. But I'd like to
hear some other opinions before working on a draft amendment for either
[A] or [B].

 - Lucas


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Gunnar Wolf]

Stefano Zacchiroli dijo [Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900]:
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

I'll gladly second that.



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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 12238 March 1977, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
>
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
>
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
>
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
>
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
>
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
>
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
>
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

Seconded.

-- 
bye, Joerg
 we have release cycles, that's why it takes so long to get a
release out; if we had release race cars, things would go a lot faster


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Xavier Oswald]

On 17:53 Tue 14 Sep , Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---
> 
> Some few more comments are in order:
> 
> - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would
>   appreciate them nonetheless.
> 
> - Related past history is .
>   This GR is narrower in scope and aims at verifying project consensus
>   before proceeding to implementation.
> 
> - At the same time, the text does not mandate a specific implementation.
>   This is on purpose since:
> 
>   - Leaving out implementation details, it will be easier to change
> project membership procedures later on.
> 
>   - DAM is authoritative on membership procedures and should be trusted
> on these matters. I do have an idea of how the process will look
> like (i.e. "like NM, but swifter, without the packaging part") and
> I'm sure DAM will be happy to comment on that.
> 
> - I've done some background study before posting this. In particular
>   I've shared the text with FD and DAM, as the GR outcome will directly
>   impact their work. They have raised no specific objection to any
>   possible outcome of the GR in its present form. I've also shared the
>   text with the secretary. While formal ruling can be done only on an
>   actual ballot, he doesn't consider the above text to be in need of 3:1
>   majority.

Seconded.

-- 
Xavier Oswald 
GNU/Linux Debian Developer - http://www.debian.org/
GPG key ID: 0x464B8DE3


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Philip Hands]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:53:46 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli  
wrote:
...
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.

to become
or if you prefer:
of becoming

> - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would
>   appreciate them nonetheless.

Seconded.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/
|-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Bernd Zeimetz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 09/14/2010 10:53 AM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

Seconded!

- -- 
 Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485  DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F
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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Gerfried Fuchs]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi!

* Stefano Zacchiroli  [2010-09-14 10:53:46 CEST]:
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

 Wholeheartly seconed, for all the longstanding website translators.
Rhonda
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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Lars Wirzenius]

On ti, 2010-09-14 at 13:14 +0200, Christoph Berg wrote:
> Re: Lars Wirzenius 2010-09-14 <1284461384.2573.26.ca...@havelock>
> > I do not like the introduction of yet another class of person developing
> > Debian. I propose we call everyone with voting rights in Debian a
> > "Debian Developer" (development not being restricted to coding and
> > packaging).
> 
> We are calling everyone "Debian Developer" (cf. the constitution). DCs
> are a subset of DDs. We realize that we probably need a handy
> expression for "DD with upload rights" [1], but we don't have one yet.
> (Ideas?)

Could we please instead not invent new names and call ourselves "DD with
upload rights" and "DD without upload rights"? We already have a problem
with terminology for various kinds of memberships. Let's not make it
worse.

> I do agree with the idea, but it opens up gray areas. There will be
> DCs who maintain some (maybe documentation-only?) packages, and will
> become DM for these. With the no-difference idea, it is unclear where
> the line to "classic DD" is. And voila, you end up being a fully
> uploading DD who has skipped T&S in the NM process.
> 
> It's probably possible to do, but it has to be well-thought. Making
> T&S a formal (and technical) prerequisite to the "uploading" part cuts
> a clear line.

I re-iterate that I think the important distinction is one of trust. Not
skills.


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Kumar Appaiah]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> [ Draft GR text below, look for "-".  M-F-T set to -vote. ]
> 
> Dear Debian project,
>   in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming
> non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one.
> Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last
> forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic.
> 
> There are various intertwined topics here: from which levels of project
> membership we want, to the evergreen topic of NM reform. They are all
> valuable and important, but what I'm trying to do here is to be
> modular. Take one decision at a time, instead of trying to fix all at
> once (as we risk to never converge on that), and without posing
> artificial barriers to subsequent, hopefully orthogonal, changes.
> 
> Of all those topics, one topic *might* have consensus already: accepting
> as DDs contributors which have contributed a lot to Debian doing
> non-packaging work, which intend to continue doing so, and which are
> ready to uphold our Foundation Documents.  My feeling of consensus on
> that builds upon: in person feedback, private mails, and a growing
> number of requests on that direction hitting Front Desk (which FD has
> kindly shared with me). I do have an impression of consensus, but I
> don't have any "quantitative" evidence. As a discussion alone cannot fix
> that, here is the draft GR I'm hereby introducing:
> 
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---
> 
> Some few more comments are in order:
> 
> - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would
>   appreciate them nonetheless.
> 
> - Related past history is .
>   This GR is narrower in scope and aims at verifying project consensus
>   before proceeding to implementation.
> 
> - At the same time, the text does not mandate a specific implementation.
>   This is on purpose since:
> 
>   - Leaving out implementation details, it will be easier to change
> project membership procedures later on.
> 
>   - DAM is authoritative on membership procedures and should be trusted
> on these matters. I do have an idea of how the process will look
> like (i.e. "like NM, but swifter, without the packaging part") and
> I'm sure DAM will be happy to comment on that.
> 
> - I've done some background study before posting this. In particular
>   I've shared the text with FD and DAM, as the GR outcome will directly
>   impact their work. They have raised no specific objection to any
>   possible outcome of the GR in its present form. I've also shared the
>   text with the secretary. While formal ruling can be done only on an
>   actual ballot, he doesn't consider the above text to be in need of 3:1
>   majority.

I second this to allow people who write documentation, translate
various software and contribute to the project in ways other than
packaging to be "official" members of the project.

Thanks for doing this.

Kumar
-- 
"What you end up with, after running an operating system concept through
these many marketing coffee filters, is something not unlike plain hot
water."
(By Matt Welsh)


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Ferdinand Thommes]

Am Dienstag 14 September 2010, 10:53:46 schrieb Stefano Zacchiroli:
> [ Draft GR text below, look for "-".  M-F-T set to -vote. ]
> 
> Dear Debian project,
>   in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming
> non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one.
> Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last
> forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic.
> 
Thank you for this approach. 
Working mainly for a much smaller debian-based distribution  for some years i 
have learned how important it is to have people other than the 
coders/developers/packagers do the work that is needed to be able to actualy 
bring your product to the masses in the best possible way. 
I am on standby for becoming a proud member of the family.


regards
Ferdinand Thommes

Fellow of FSFE
LinuxTag e.V.



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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Christoph Berg]

Re: Lars Wirzenius 2010-09-14 <1284461384.2573.26.ca...@havelock>
> I do not like the introduction of yet another class of person developing
> Debian. I propose we call everyone with voting rights in Debian a
> "Debian Developer" (development not being restricted to coding and
> packaging).

We are calling everyone "Debian Developer" (cf. the constitution). DCs
are a subset of DDs. We realize that we probably need a handy
expression for "DD with upload rights" [1], but we don't have one yet.
(Ideas?)

[1]  I'm a DM, will you sponsor my new package?
 no, I'm a DC
 yes, I can, I'm a DD with upload rights but that doesn't have
a catchy name yet

> Voting, not uploads, being the fundamental right of a member
> of the project, and the most important reward we can give for someone
> who works for Debian.

I see "membership" as such more important. Lately, there's only been
the DPL votes and few GRs. The thing people care about is being part
of the project, as an acknowledgement for the work they are doing (and
all the fame and glory of @debian.org addresses). Anyway, both are
implemented here.

> I also feel we don't need to implement a technical barrier against
> uploading. I don't think technical skills are the relevant thing when it
> comes to deciding whether someone should be allowed to upload or not.
> The important thing is whether we trust them or not. If we don't trust
> them, they shouldn't be any kind of member in the project. If we do, we
> should trust them to not intentionally make a mess. Mistakes are not
> that important: everyone makes mistakes, and we need to be able to
> recover from them anyway. But this is perhaps a bit radical of an
> opinion in Debian right now.

I do agree with the idea, but it opens up gray areas. There will be
DCs who maintain some (maybe documentation-only?) packages, and will
become DM for these. With the no-difference idea, it is unclear where
the line to "classic DD" is. And voila, you end up being a fully
uploading DD who has skipped T&S in the NM process.

It's probably possible to do, but it has to be well-thought. Making
T&S a formal (and technical) prerequisite to the "uploading" part cuts
a clear line.

> (I was under the impression there was a hypothetical path to becoming a
> DD for people who do not want to do packaging work. I am sure I heard
> someone say they had gone through that path years ago, but perhaps I
> remember wrongly.)

See cate's mail.

Christoph
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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Lars Wirzenius]

On ti, 2010-09-14 at 17:53 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).

I support Zack's proposal, but with a caveat.

I do not like the introduction of yet another class of person developing
Debian. I propose we call everyone with voting rights in Debian a
"Debian Developer" (development not being restricted to coding and
packaging). Voting, not uploads, being the fundamental right of a member
of the project, and the most important reward we can give for someone
who works for Debian.

I also feel we don't need to implement a technical barrier against
uploading. I don't think technical skills are the relevant thing when it
comes to deciding whether someone should be allowed to upload or not.
The important thing is whether we trust them or not. If we don't trust
them, they shouldn't be any kind of member in the project. If we do, we
should trust them to not intentionally make a mess. Mistakes are not
that important: everyone makes mistakes, and we need to be able to
recover from them anyway. But this is perhaps a bit radical of an
opinion in Debian right now.

(I was under the impression there was a hypothetical path to becoming a
DD for people who do not want to do packaging work. I am sure I heard
someone say they had gone through that path years ago, but perhaps I
remember wrongly.)


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Enrico Zini]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

Seconded.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Christoph Berg]

Re: Luca Bruno 2010-09-14 <20100914120120.c0d3f45b.lu...@debian.org>
> As we still remember the big "on terminology" thread[0] and we don't
> want here to create more confusion nor to start the big renaming race,
> I think it will be better to leave terminology out of this GR, as this
> will introduce even more ambiguity: aren't sponsored packagers
> debian contributors(lowercase) too?

Any name will be generic to some extend, unless it is long and ugly.

> I'd thus propose not to call them Debian Contributors (DC) now, and let
> NM/DAM team pick an appropriate name when reforming the procedures.

The idea was discussed, and that's the name we came up with. If
someone has a better idea, please tell us, and I'm sure zack will
update the proposal.

Christoph
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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[MJ Ray]

"Giacomo A. Catenazzi" 
> So you are already free to do it by delegating. A GR would be used
> to overrule your decision, but, as you already noted, there is
> already a general consensus on the issue.

Equally, the DPL is empowered to start a GR to do this.  I'm very
happy to see a DPL checking that there really is consensus.
We don't have a great history of GRs overruling decisions, do we?

Regards,
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Christoph Berg]

Re: Giacomo A. Catenazzi 2010-09-14 <4c8f40be.9050...@debian.org>
> I don't understand the procedure. You are already empowered to do it:
> 
> 8.1 The Project Leader's Delegates:
> 1. [...]
> 2. may make certain decisions which the Leader may not make
> directly, including approving or expelling Developers or
> *designating people as Developers who do not maintain packages*.
> This is to avoid concentration of power, particularly over
> membership as a Developer, in the hands of the Project Leader.

Also:

3. Individual Developers
3.2. Composition and appointment

   1. Developers are volunteers who agree to further the aims of the
   Project insofar as they participate in it, and who maintain
   package(s) for the Project or do other work which the Project
   Leader's Delegate(s) consider worthwhile.

> So you are already free to do it by delegating. A GR would be used
> to overrule your decision, but, as you already noted, there is
> already a general consensus on the issue.

Yes. The GR "just" asks the project to embrace the idea. Last time, we
tried to do something in this direction, it ended up unpleasantly.
(Which was also our fault.)

> The decision could do a title on the news, but in reality the real
> and practical effects are IMHO minimal.

Let's hope so :)

Christoph
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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Luca Bruno]

Stefano Zacchiroli scrisse:

> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might
> become Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive.
> These new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.

As we still remember the big "on terminology" thread[0] and we don't
want here to create more confusion nor to start the big renaming race,
I think it will be better to leave terminology out of this GR, as this
will introduce even more ambiguity: aren't sponsored packagers
debian contributors(lowercase) too?

I'd thus propose not to call them Debian Contributors (DC) now, and let
NM/DAM team pick an appropriate name when reforming the procedures.

Ciao, Luca

[0] http://lists.debian.org/<4c2e569b.9030...@debian.org>

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: :'  :   The Universal O.S.| lucab (AT) debian.org
`. `'`  | GPG Key ID: 3BFB9FB3
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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Manuel Prinz]

Am Dienstag, den 14.09.2010, 17:53 +0900 schrieb Stefano Zacchiroli:
> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---
> 
> Some few more comments are in order:
> 
> - Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would
>   appreciate them nonetheless.

Seconded.

Best regards,
Manuel


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 05:53:46PM +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> 
> Of all those topics, one topic *might* have consensus already: accepting
> as DDs contributors which have contributed a lot to Debian doing
> non-packaging work, which intend to continue doing so, and which are
> ready to uphold our Foundation Documents.

Hi Stefano,

I agree with the above, accepting as DDs contributors who do not maintain
packages, but your proposal is different: it establishes a new class of project
members, who differ by not having upload rights.

I suppose that the goal is to avoid disruptive NMUs and damage to our
infrastructure in case their GPG key is compromised. But do you think that this
is more likely to happen with developers who do not maintain packages, compared
with developers who do?

I wonder why not simply inviting the Debian Account Managers to accept the long
term contributors as DDs, even if they to not maintain packages? Would an
amendement be welcome?

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Sylvestre Ledru]

Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 à 17:53 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :

> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---
Seconded.

Sylvestre




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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Sylvestre Ledru]

Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 à 17:53 +0900, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :

> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---
Seconded.

Sylvestre



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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Alexander Reichle-Schmehl]

* Stefano Zacchiroli  [100914 10:53]:

> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

Seconded.


Best Regards,
  Alexander


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Giacomo A. Catenazzi]

On 14.09.10 10:53, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:


Of all those topics, one topic *might* have consensus already: accepting
as DDs contributors which have contributed a lot to Debian doing
non-packaging work, which intend to continue doing so, and which are
ready to uphold our Foundation Documents.  My feeling of consensus on
that builds upon: in person feedback, private mails, and a growing
number of requests on that direction hitting Front Desk (which FD has
kindly shared with me). I do have an impression of consensus, but I
don't have any "quantitative" evidence. As a discussion alone cannot fix
that, here is the draft GR I'm hereby introducing:


I don't understand the procedure. You are already empowered to do it:

8.1 The Project Leader's Delegates:
1. [...]
2. may make certain decisions which the Leader may not make directly, 
including approving or expelling Developers or *designating people as 
Developers who do not maintain packages*. This is to avoid concentration 
of power, particularly over membership as a Developer, in the hands of 
the Project Leader.


So you are already free to do it by delegating. A GR would be used
to overrule your decision, but, as you already noted, there is
already a general consensus on the issue.

ciao
cate


PS: and a personal comment. I think the entire issue is pure technical:
who and how to choice the non-maintainer developers, the account 
settings and machine accesses, the designation, etc. But in Debian

style we are writting too much (and in a philosophical level).

The decision could do a title on the news, but in reality the real and 
practical effects are IMHO minimal.


ciao
cate


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Re: GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Christoph Berg]

> ---
> The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
> To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
> including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
> infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
> fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
> quality assurance, etc.
> 
> The Debian project acknowledges that:
> 
> * To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
>   other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.
> 
> * Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
>   and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
>   opportunity for becoming Debian project members.
> 
> The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:
> 
> * Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
>   Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
>   new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).
> 
> * Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.
> 
> * Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
>   Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
>   Debian infrastructure.
> ---

Seconded.

Christoph
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GR: welcome non-packaging contributors as Debian project members

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

[ Draft GR text below, look for "-".  M-F-T set to -vote. ]

Dear Debian project,
  in recent events I've attended as DPL, the topic of welcoming
non-packaging contributors as project members has been a recurring one.
Since it was also part of my platform and since DPL terms don't last
forever, I feel it's time to have a project-wide decision on the topic.

There are various intertwined topics here: from which levels of project
membership we want, to the evergreen topic of NM reform. They are all
valuable and important, but what I'm trying to do here is to be
modular. Take one decision at a time, instead of trying to fix all at
once (as we risk to never converge on that), and without posing
artificial barriers to subsequent, hopefully orthogonal, changes.

Of all those topics, one topic *might* have consensus already: accepting
as DDs contributors which have contributed a lot to Debian doing
non-packaging work, which intend to continue doing so, and which are
ready to uphold our Foundation Documents.  My feeling of consensus on
that builds upon: in person feedback, private mails, and a growing
number of requests on that direction hitting Front Desk (which FD has
kindly shared with me). I do have an impression of consensus, but I
don't have any "quantitative" evidence. As a discussion alone cannot fix
that, here is the draft GR I'm hereby introducing:

---
The Debian project aims at producing the best free operating system.
To that end the project benefits from various types of contributions,
including but not limited to: package maintenance, translations,
infrastructure and website maintenance, porting, bug triaging and
fixing, management activities, communication, testing, legal advice,
quality assurance, etc.

The Debian project acknowledges that:

* To pursue Debian goals, package maintenance as well as a wide range of
  other technical and non-technical contributions are all valuable.

* Active contributors of non-packaging work, which share Debian values
  and are ready to uphold Debian Foundation Documents, deserve the
  opportunity for becoming Debian project members.

The Debian project therefore invites the Debian Account Managers to:

* Endorse the idea that contributors of non-packaging work might become
  Debian Developers without upload rights to the Debian archive. These
  new developers shall be recognized as Debian Contributors (DC).

* Establish procedures to evaluate and accept Debian Contributors.

* Initiate the appropriate technical measures to enable Debian
  Contributors to participate in Debian decision making and to access
  Debian infrastructure.
---

Some few more comments are in order:

- Constitution §4.2.1 does not require seconds in this case, but I would
  appreciate them nonetheless.

- Related past history is .
  This GR is narrower in scope and aims at verifying project consensus
  before proceeding to implementation.

- At the same time, the text does not mandate a specific implementation.
  This is on purpose since:

  - Leaving out implementation details, it will be easier to change
project membership procedures later on.

  - DAM is authoritative on membership procedures and should be trusted
on these matters. I do have an idea of how the process will look
like (i.e. "like NM, but swifter, without the packaging part") and
I'm sure DAM will be happy to comment on that.

- I've done some background study before posting this. In particular
  I've shared the text with FD and DAM, as the GR outcome will directly
  impact their work. They have raised no specific objection to any
  possible outcome of the GR in its present form. I've also shared the
  text with the secretary. While formal ruling can be done only on an
  actual ballot, he doesn't consider the above text to be in need of 3:1
  majority.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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