Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 07:55:56AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> However, the problem with detailed job descriptions, as it were, is that
> you run the risk of having people argue over whether or not something is
> their responsibility. This would introduce a conflict.
>
> In the absense of such detail, it's the DPL's responsibility to just
> interpret the delegation and make a judgement call on whether something
> is one person's job or not. If done carefully (after weighing all the
> arguments), such a judgement call can be as effective in resolving
> conflict as are detailed job descriptions, without running the risk of
> introducing inflexibility.

I'm not sure I follow you, but I think I disagree :-). If I'm reading
the above correctly, you're saying that not having job descriptions for
delegated tasks will reduce the conflict space, because there will be
disagreements on the interpretation of the job descriptions.

But job descriptions exists precisely to *reduce* the space of possible
interpretations. They will therefore reduce the number of times the DPL
is called to judge upon whether something is within the realm of the
delegation or outside of it.

They also increase the transparency of what is being delegated, which is
particularly important considering that delegations have the power of
creating disparity of powers among project members.

Finally, it has the benefit of depending less on the "judge" (i.e. the
DPL) than the scenario without descriptions. And that is particularly
good because the DPL is moving target, year after year. As a Debian
Developer, I wouldn't be happy to know that the interpretation of a
delegation with the current DPL might change with the next one.

Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences   ..   http://upsilon.cc/zack   ..   . . o
Debian Project Leader...   @zack on identi.ca   ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 06:15:04PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> Since you've repeatedly mentioned my "bureaucracy" and "procedures" (not
> to mention "bureaucrat" referred to my person, which doesn't feel as
> nice, at least in popular connotations :-)),

Sorry 'bout that :-)

> I'd like to point out that
> procedures are just a mean to an end. They are incentives. They are
> implementations of changes that we think are good for the project. Just
> a few of concrete examples:
> 
> - I've been routinely asking delegates to provide a sort of "tasks
>   description" before renewing, or creating from scratch, delegations.
>   All those descriptions have been stored under (or at the very list
>   indexed from) http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/ . Is that bureaucratic?
>   Yes. But it allows to find out what is the scope of a delegation
>   rather than relying on folklore. And *that* is very useful in conflict
>   solving (been there).

I understand that.

However, the problem with detailed job descriptions, as it were, is that
you run the risk of having people argue over whether or not something is
their responsibility. This would introduce a conflict.

In the absense of such detail, it's the DPL's responsibility to just
interpret the delegation and make a judgement call on whether something
is one person's job or not. If done carefully (after weighing all the
arguments), such a judgement call can be as effective in resolving
conflict as are detailed job descriptions, without running the risk of
introducing inflexibility.

(for clarity, I'm not likely to remove these job descriptions. Now that
they're there, I'll leave them. Also, if new delegates join a team where
everyone else has a detailed job description, without having one like
that themselves, I doubt that'd be a good idea, so I'll probably have to
stick by this rule. I just won't introduce any such rules myself)

> - I've been routinely asking sprint participants to document their
>   sprints under http://wiki.debian.org/Sprints before asking for budget
>   approval and of sending public sprint reports before asking for
>   reimbursements. Is that bureaucratic? Yes. But is useful in many ways:
>   1/ it shows what we do with money and it helps in attracting sponsors
>   (see recent thread on -project); 2/ it dispels the risk of "cabals
>   meeting in secret on Debian money" (we have been there already, we've
>   had enough) and gives transparency on how Debian money are used; 3/ it
>   provides a flow of information about what is going on in various areas
>   of the project, increasing the permeability among teams.

This is not something I oppose.

Like I said, bureaucracy has its place; and when dealing with other
people's money, the clarity and transparency that a set of rules will
introduce is definitely a plus.

> Just examples, I'll be happy to provide similar rationales for every
> single procedure I've encouraged.

That won't be needed. I believe (or rather, would hope) that you have
rationales for each and every one you introduced.

The point is not that you're doing it without cause, but rather, that if
you introduce new rules, you always run the risk of introducing
inflexibility, which is something that needs to be weighed against the
benefits the new rule brings.

-- 
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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:05:06AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> This indicates either that you don't have any concrete, specific ideas
> about what to do differently,

Something like that; I do know what I want to focus on, but I don't have
the details worked out, and so there aren't specific ideas for what I'll
do.

I expect to work out the details as I work myself in as DPL.

> or that you don't intend to discuss those ideas publicly with the
> people deciding whether to vote for you.

Certainly not. I would find that unacceptable for a prospective DPL
myself.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Ben Finney]

Wouter Verhelst  writes:

> So, I've given this some thought, and I think I understand why we seem
> to be talking two different languages here.

Thank you for thinking and responding.

[…]
> I hope that explains it. If not, I'm afraid I'm going to have to tell
> you that I don't believe I can give you an answer which will satisfy
> you.

The issue, as I see it, with this back-and-forth:

Your platform doesn't give any concrete idea of what you expect to do
differently from other DPL candidates. It talks about vision and focus
and atmosphere and many other nebulous things, but says nothing about
what you would do differently in the DPL office.

The ensuing thread has provided no more enlightenment.

This indicates either that you don't have any concrete, specific ideas
about what to do differently, or that you don't intend to discuss those
ideas publicly with the people deciding whether to vote for you.

Whether an individual voter is satisfied with your response, I leave up
to the individual.

-- 
 \   “Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who |
  `\   speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.” —Ambrose |
_o__)   Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_, 1906 |
Ben Finney


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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 04:30:06PM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst  writes:
> 
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 07:33:06AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > > Wouter Verhelst  writes:
> > > 
> > > > I will try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter
> > > > of the constitution or the letter of the social contract, than
> > > > about the people and the job that needs doing.
> > > 
> > > The above (and the rest of your message) doesn't give any specifics of
> > > what you plan to *do* as DPL, though.
> >
> > No, because (as I've said before) there is no detailed plan.
> 
> As I've said before, “what will you do” doesn't request that you lay out
> a plan.
> 
> Saying what you will care about doesn't tell us anything about what you
> will *do*. Saying what you will focus on doesn't tell us what you will
> *do*.

So, I've given this some thought, and I think I understand why we seem
to be talking two different languages here.

The role of the DPL, as I see it, is something of an observer, an
overseer (in the non-boss kind of way), someone who only intervenes when
otherwise things would go wrong, or the project would go off track. At
the same time, the DPL should keep his eye on the long-term goals and
plans of the project, since otherwise it's difficult to decide when
things are, in fact, going "off track", which requires some vision on
the part of the DPL.

There are other ways of interpreting the role of the DPL, however. One
way could be to be someone who wants to steer the project, leading by
making suggestions of where to go next. This would be a much more active
role than how I've just come to describe, and would require a plan of
things you want to do. Not necessarily a time-based plan (as in, "I'll
do this by X, and that by Y"), but a "plan" as in, "I want to have this
and that and those things all done by the time my term is over". While I
may have one or two things that I want to suggest (the Code of Conduct
overhaul is one of them, but even that is by no means certain), this is
absolutely not what I stand for.

Now, the first form is much more of a reactionary form of being DPL than
the second form, and as such makes it very difficult to say what I'll be
"doing", since I don't know that yet; it depends on what will happen
during my term. That doesn't make me unpredictable, it just reflects the
fact that Debian, as a project, is unpredictable; but if you know how I
think about important matters, you should be able to defer how I will
react to a given situation, and as such you should be able to predict my
reaction somewhat.

So, if you have things that matter to you, which you think might happen
during the year, or which have happened or are ongoing and aren't (or
didn't) happen in the way you think should have happened, feel free to
ask some specific questions about that, and I'll be glad to answer them
in as much detail as I think is reasonably possible. But asking me to
say "how will you act" is asking me to say how I will react to anything
that might possibly or impossibly happen during the next year, which I
dont't think is a question that I can usefully answer.

I hope that explains it. If not, I'm afraid I'm going to have to tell
you that I don't believe I can give you an answer which will satisfy
you.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 09:22:48AM +, Neil McGovern wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 02:50:59AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > > Is there any other policies that you disagree with,
> > 
> > No.
> > 
> > > and would you be looking to change any of these as DPL?
> > 
> > Not without first trying to achieve consensus.
> > 
> 
> I'm slightly confused by my being copied in to your reply then - do you
> feel it appropriate to ignore policies you disagree with 

One of the reasons I find that policy wrong is because it requires
manual action from me to make sure I actually do follow it -- through
reconfiguring my mail client, remembering to use "list reply" in mutt
rather than "reply all", or by manually removing whoever is in Cc from
the mail.

I've never bothered to search through the mutt manual for the
information I would need to do the first, and the second just isn't in
my fingers. I try to remember to do the third, but I often forget.

In other words, it wasn't on purpose (it never is). Sorry 'bout that.

(FWIW, though this is getting more and more off-topic, another reason
why I think it's a bad policy is because by requesting that people make
their mail clients do something else than the defaults, you make it
harder to respect the wishes of people explicitly asking to be copied on
replies. It wouldn't be the first time that I see a thread on one of our
mailinglists where people explicitly say "please Cc, I'm not
subscribed", only to be removed from Cc two or three mails down the
thread)

> and/or what would you do if you found the rest of the project out of
> step with your view of what the project should be doing?

Probably keep doing what I'm doing now.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Neil McGovern]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 02:50:59AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Is there any other policies that you disagree with,
> 
> No.
> 
> > and would you be looking to change any of these as DPL?
> 
> Not without first trying to achieve consensus.
> 

I'm slightly confused by my being copied in to your reply then - do you
feel it appropriate to ignore policies you disagree with and/or what
would you do if you found the rest of the project out of step with your
view of what the project should be doing?

Thanks,
Neil
-- 
<+Mulligan> Your folk tale is inconsistent and confusing.
<+Mulligan> I shall round up your local population and tell them good CHRISTIAN 
folk tales.
<+Mulligan> Then build churches on all your pagan temples in order to stamp out 
your heathen idolatry.
<@Ulthar> How about I give you the finger, and you give me my temples back?
<+Mulligan> Tell me Mr Ulthar. How will you gather faith when you have no 
followers?
 * Mulligan makes a gesture and converts everyone to Christianity.
<+Mulligan> Wow. I think we just summarised 800 years of history in about six 
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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Ben Finney]

Wouter Verhelst  writes:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 07:33:06AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Wouter Verhelst  writes:
> > 
> > > I will try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter
> > > of the constitution or the letter of the social contract, than
> > > about the people and the job that needs doing.
> > 
> > The above (and the rest of your message) doesn't give any specifics of
> > what you plan to *do* as DPL, though.
>
> No, because (as I've said before) there is no detailed plan.

As I've said before, “what will you do” doesn't request that you lay out
a plan.

Saying what you will care about doesn't tell us anything about what you
will *do*. Saying what you will focus on doesn't tell us what you will
*do*.

> I honestly don't see what more I could tell you, without making up
> examples. I do *not* want to do that, because that will always be
> contrived and missing the point.

You say that you feel you can do better. That's an entirely subjective
statement, of course. We're asking what you will *do*, so we can better
know what you mean by “do better”. In particular, what you will do.

Naturally, that involves speculation about future possibilities. Surely,
though, a DPL candidate can be expected to have some degree of foresight
as to typical *specific* situations and how they would respond
differently from other candidates.

That's what is being requested – in my framing of the question, anyway.

> What more do you want? There is nothing more to say than that.

Perhaps that's the most informative answer. Thank you.

-- 
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Ben Finney


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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Russ Allbery]

Wouter Verhelst  writes:

> I honestly don't see what more I could tell you, without making up
> examples. I do *not* want to do that, because that will always be
> contrived and missing the point.

> I've told you several times now what I plan to do as DPL: I intend to
> copy the things from Stefano's way of working that I think make sense
> (mostly in how he's done his communication), but I will focus less on
> procedures and more on the people that make up the project.

> What more do you want? There is nothing more to say than that.

The place where this disconnects for me is that it seems like much of your
platform is based on the idea of DPL as leader.  That you feel like the
DPL should be more dynamic and promote a vision.  But you don't seem to
have any specific vision, goals, or places where you want to lead, just an
(apparently kind of vague) feeling that the DPL should be more leaderly.

I had this disconnect the last time you ran too.  The idea of DPL as
leader was sort of interesting, but there didn't seem to be any meat under
it, which made me unsure that anything would actually come of it if you
were elected.

I'm interested in hearing what people who are running for DPL with a
vision want to do, but I want to know a bit more about what the vision is
in advance.  :)

-- 
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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 07:33:06AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst  writes:
> 
> > I will try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter of
> > the constitution or the letter of the social contract, than about the
> > people and the job that needs doing.
> >
> > Can I be more specific than that? Probably, but I'd rather not do
> > that.
> 
> The above (and the rest of your message) doesn't give any specifics of
> what you plan to *do* as DPL, though.

No, because (as I've said before) there is no detailed plan. In fact, I
don't think you can plan a lot as DPL, since it's a job where the work
is thrown at you, rather than that you need to go look for it.

> > Yes, I could start picking up specific things that have happened during
> > the past two years and start slinging mud about it in Stefano's general
> > direction, but I don't think that's very helpful.
> 
> Right. No-one has asked for that.
> 
> You've been asked several times for the actions you plan to take, and
> it's distressing to see you avoid the question like this.

I honestly don't see what more I could tell you, without making up
examples. I do *not* want to do that, because that will always be
contrived and missing the point.

I've told you several times now what I plan to do as DPL: I intend to
copy the things from Stefano's way of working that I think make sense
(mostly in how he's done his communication), but I will focus less on
procedures and more on the people that make up the project.

What more do you want? There is nothing more to say than that.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 04:46:14PM +, Neil McGovern wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:00:12PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Also, I think the CoC is wrong in making policy about who to send
> > replies to. Some people actually prefer getting replies, while others
> > don't. Since there's a header that nicely allows you to specify just
> > that, I think a more useful rule in a code of conduct is "use a mailer
> > that respects the Mail-Followup-To: header, or respect it manually".
> > This way, people can express their preference, and there should be no
> > complaints about whether or not replies should be sent.
> > 
> 
> Is there any other policies that you disagree with,

No.

> and would you be looking to change any of these as DPL?

Not without first trying to achieve consensus.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Ben Finney]

Wouter Verhelst  writes:

> I will try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter of
> the constitution or the letter of the social contract, than about the
> people and the job that needs doing.
>
> Can I be more specific than that? Probably, but I'd rather not do
> that.

The above (and the rest of your message) doesn't give any specifics of
what you plan to *do* as DPL, though.

> Yes, I could start picking up specific things that have happened during
> the past two years and start slinging mud about it in Stefano's general
> direction, but I don't think that's very helpful.

Right. No-one has asked for that.

You've been asked several times for the actions you plan to take, and
it's distressing to see you avoid the question like this.

> No, I think a better question would have been "do we need another year
> with Stefano".

Please don't deflect the question to Stefano. Regardless what people may
think of Stefano, this is a question about you as a DPL candidate.

What will you, if elected to DPL, do specifically with that authority?

-- 
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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 04:18:30PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Can I be more specific than that? Probably, but I'd rather not do that.
> Yes, I could start picking up specific things that have happened during
> the past two years and start slinging mud about it in Stefano's general
> direction, but I don't think that's very helpful.

Just a comment on this, since you seem to be mentioning me a lot, both
in your platform and in campaign discussions.  Which, BTW, I find
entirely appropriate: I'm standing for reelection so it's only fair to
bring "compare and contrast" points in the discussion.

I won't mind specific examples of things people think I've been doing
wrong, both coming from candidates and non-candidates. It will be a
chance for me to explain why I did something in a specific way, in the
case that I haven't done so at the time. It will also make this
discussion more concrete and less hand-wave-y.

Since you've repeatedly mentioned my "bureaucracy" and "procedures" (not
to mention "bureaucrat" referred to my person, which doesn't feel as
nice, at least in popular connotations :-)), I'd like to point out that
procedures are just a mean to an end. They are incentives. They are
implementations of changes that we think are good for the project. Just
a few of concrete examples:

- I've been routinely asking delegates to provide a sort of "tasks
  description" before renewing, or creating from scratch, delegations.
  All those descriptions have been stored under (or at the very list
  indexed from) http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/ . Is that bureaucratic?
  Yes. But it allows to find out what is the scope of a delegation
  rather than relying on folklore. And *that* is very useful in conflict
  solving (been there).

- I've been routinely asking sprint participants to document their
  sprints under http://wiki.debian.org/Sprints before asking for budget
  approval and of sending public sprint reports before asking for
  reimbursements. Is that bureaucratic? Yes. But is useful in many ways:
  1/ it shows what we do with money and it helps in attracting sponsors
  (see recent thread on -project); 2/ it dispels the risk of "cabals
  meeting in secret on Debian money" (we have been there already, we've
  had enough) and gives transparency on how Debian money are used; 3/ it
  provides a flow of information about what is going on in various areas
  of the project, increasing the permeability among teams.

Just examples, I'll be happy to provide similar rationales for every
single procedure I've encouraged.

On the other hand, procedures might have bugs, feel free to report them!
Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences   ..   http://upsilon.cc/zack   ..   . . o
Debian Project Leader...   @zack on identi.ca   ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Neil McGovern]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:00:12PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Also, I think the CoC is wrong in making policy about who to send
> replies to. Some people actually prefer getting replies, while others
> don't. Since there's a header that nicely allows you to specify just
> that, I think a more useful rule in a code of conduct is "use a mailer
> that respects the Mail-Followup-To: header, or respect it manually".
> This way, people can express their preference, and there should be no
> complaints about whether or not replies should be sent.
> 

Is there any other policies that you disagree with, and would you be
looking to change any of these as DPL?

Neil
-- 
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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:23:50PM +0200, Kalle Kivimaa wrote:
> On 13Mar, 2012, at 17:18 , Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 09:14:43AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> >> Please don't send me personal copies of messages that are also going to
> >> the mailing list, as I haven't asked for that.
> > 
> > Mail-Followup-To can help you with that, fwiw.
> > 
> 
> From the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct at 
> http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
> 
> "When replying to messages on the mailing list, do not send a carbon copy 
> (CC) to the original poster unless they explicitly request to be copied."

>From that same code of conduct:

"If you want to complain to someone who sent you a carbon copy when you
did not ask for it, do it privately."

Also, I think the CoC is wrong in making policy about who to send
replies to. Some people actually prefer getting replies, while others
don't. Since there's a header that nicely allows you to specify just
that, I think a more useful rule in a code of conduct is "use a mailer
that respects the Mail-Followup-To: header, or respect it manually".
This way, people can express their preference, and there should be no
complaints about whether or not replies should be sent.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Kalle Kivimaa]

On 13Mar, 2012, at 17:18 , Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 09:14:43AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
>> Please don't send me personal copies of messages that are also going to
>> the mailing list, as I haven't asked for that.
> 
> Mail-Followup-To can help you with that, fwiw.
> 

From the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct at 
http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

"When replying to messages on the mailing list, do not send a carbon copy (CC) 
to the original poster unless they explicitly request to be copied."


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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 09:14:43AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Please don't send me personal copies of messages that are also going to
> the mailing list, as I haven't asked for that.

Mail-Followup-To can help you with that, fwiw.

[...]
> > I know that there are a number of things that I want to do differently
> > from how Stefano's been doing them. I want to have a different focus.
> > As DPL, I want to try and motivate people to work on Debian.
> 
> Please tell us what *specific* things you want to do differently, and
> why those specific actions need DPL authority.

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 01:22:45PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 03/13/2012 12:14 AM, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > there
> > are some things I would like to see the DPL do differently
> 
> Could you be a bit more explicit? Which things? Note that I have read
> your platform, but I still think it needs some clarifications. For
> example, you wrote that you think the DPL could do more than just
> procedural things. Like what?

It's a matter of style. I think Stefano has done a good job in
communication, but has been a bit of a... bureaucrat in other tasks. I'm
not very fond of bureaucracy. It has its place, it's necessary
sometimes, but it's always a necessary evil.

What I want to see in a DPL (and hence, what I will try to do when I am
DPL) is a motivator; someone who will try to find ways to get people
working together more efficiently. The job of the DPL is about people,
not about technology; and certainly not about procedures. Hence, I will
try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter of the
constitution or the letter of the social contract, than about the people
and the job that needs doing.

Can I be more specific than that? Probably, but I'd rather not do that.
Yes, I could start picking up specific things that have happened during
the past two years and start slinging mud about it in Stefano's general
direction, but I don't think that's very helpful. I can tell you that
the difference won't be immense, however; they will be details. But I do
think that change is good; that after two years, the project can use a
different DPL. Keeping the same person in the leadership position for
too long is not a good idea.

I think this thread has started off on the wrong foot a bit. Is there a
"need" for me to be DPL? Not really. There is a need for the project to
have a good DPL, yes, and a *wish* for me to serve in that position. I
think I can do a good job, and I have thought so for quite a while
(otherwise I wouldn't be running three times in six years).

No, I think a better question would have been "do we need another year
with Stefano". It's true that he's done a remarkable job, and that it's
taken us many years to get someone who's done the job so well. In that
context, I do understand the reluctance to choose "the unknown" over
"the known good", which probably led to this question. But I don't think
that reluctance is warranted.

Stefano's best qualities as DPL have been the way in which he's
communicated with the rest of the project. He's also done an excellent
job of documenting how he's done that; this means it should be possible
for the people coming after him to copy his ways of doing things, in an
effort to improve and build upon his accomplishments. I intend to do
just that.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Gergely Nagy]

Raphael Geissert  writes:

> Reading zack's platform, it makes me wonder why would you (Gergely and 
> Wouter) actually need to be elected as a DPL to do what you mention on your 
> platforms.

Because while Zack's regin as DPL for the past two years have been very
successful, and there would be a lot of things I'd do the same way
(which Wouter even highlighted as being communication), there are others
where our goals for this year differ wildly.

To explain this, I'll answer your questions in reverse order, as I
believe that would be the easiest way to arrive to a conclusion:

> * If zack was re-elected, would you follow his initiative to share DPL 
> activities with others?

Yes, I would, to some extent. Sharing the load and building on the
knowledge, skill and enthusiasm of others - or, to put it another way:
standing on the soulder of giants - is a good way to avoid spreading
oneself too thin, and remain effective.

A leader, as the name implies, is there to lead, not do everything by
himself.

> * If not elected, would you pursue your goals anyway?

I would do everything within my power to pursue them. It would become
considerably more difficult, though, but not impossible. If it's not
impossible, it's still worth trying.

If the elected DPL happens to share some of the ideas or goals I set
forth, then I see no problem with working together to achieve both our
goals.

However, with Zack wishing to oversee the completion of projects he
already started (an understandable desire!), and with his wish to train
prospective DPLs and ease future transitions, I doubt he'd have enough
time and energy to follow up on my vision too.

> * Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you propose? 

Because I have a vision that points further into the future than the
other candidates', I believe. It would be difficult to accomplish what I
hope to do, without having the tools at hand, and those tools happen to
be in the DPL's toolbox: the ability to delegate, to be noticed and
perhaps even listened to, and to stand on a higher pedestal from where
one can get a better overview of the project as a whole.

All of these can be done without being a DPL, but then, even with the
help of the DPL, it would take considerably more time and effort, than
if I didn't have to go through another channel.

Furthermore, there's the question of "why not"? Since both Wouter and
myself intend to continue the great things Zack started and did, what
would we loose if the DPL transition happend now, and not next year?

Zack could still see his pending projects to completion, as he's the one
with the most knowledge regarding them, and as such, can remain in
control of these: that would also help the next DPL tremendously, and
thus, ease the transition.

Which in turn, also helps Zack accomplish his goal of training a new
DPL, and everybody wins! Even better, this way there's already a
successor present, and Zack does not need to worry about making sure
that in 2013 we'll have a smooth transition: we can make that happen
this year, while sacrificing nothing from either of our goals.

I have doubts it'd work as well if it went the other way around.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Thomas Goirand]

On 03/13/2012 12:14 AM, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> there
> are some things I would like to see the DPL do differently

Could you be a bit more explicit? Which things? Note that I have read
your platform, but I still think it needs some clarifications. For
example, you wrote that you think the DPL could do more than just
procedural things. Like what?

Cheers,

Thomas


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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Ben Finney]

Please don't send me personal copies of messages that are also going to
the mailing list, as I haven't asked for that.

Wouter Verhelst  writes:

> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 08:05:24AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:

> > * What *specific* actions, requiring DPL powers, will you do as DPL?
> > For each of those specific actions, why do you think they need DPL
> > powers?

Point taken about “powers”. You acknowledge that the DPL has authority
to do some things that ordinary members can't do, so please read
“authority” in its place.

> This question is based on a number of incorrect assumptions.
>
> First, it assumes I have a very specific plan laid out for the next
> year, with what I will do on each day (or, well at least "each
> month").

Not at all. The question isn't asking when you'll do these things; it's
not a question of schedules or timetables.

The question is getting to the reason why you think people should want
you as DPL: what, specifically, do you intend to do with that authority,
and why do you think you need that authority to do those specific
actions?

> I have an idea of what to do, but some of the details will have to be
> mapped out as I go along. In a sense, this *is* a new project.

Of course, that's not a problem. But it shouldn't prevent you from
addressing the question as asked.

> I know that there are a number of things that I want to do differently
> from how Stefano's been doing them. I want to have a different focus.
> As DPL, I want to try and motivate people to work on Debian.

Please tell us what *specific* things you want to do differently, and
why those specific actions need DPL authority.

> As such, if I evaded the question, that's mainly because I think there
> *isn't* a good answer to that question.

That should concern potential voters. If a candidate can't be specific
about what they intend to do as DPL, nor why those specific actions need
DPL authority, I think voters would be well advised to avoid voting for
that candidate.

I hope you agree, and can give some more specific answer to address the
question. Thanks!

-- 
 \“The difference between religions and cults is determined by |
  `\  how much real estate is owned.” —Frank Zappa |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 08:05:24AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Raphael Geissert  writes:
> 
> > * Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you
> > propose? 
> 
> Given that one response to this didn't really address the question, let
> me try re-stating it:
> 
> * What *specific* actions, requiring DPL powers, will you do as DPL? For
>   each of those specific actions, why do you think they need DPL powers?

This question is based on a number of incorrect assumptions.

First, it assumes I have a very specific plan laid out for the next
year, with what I will do on each day (or, well at least "each month").
I don't. I do have an idea of how to proceed, but bits of it are
somewhat vague still -- very much like when I start working on a new
project: I have an idea of what to do, but some of the details will have
to be mapped out as I go along. In a sense, this *is* a new project.

I know that there are a number of things that I want to do differently
from how Stefano's been doing them. I want to have a different focus. As
DPL, I want to try and motivate people to work on Debian.

Second, the DPL doesn't *have* any DPL powers that other people in
Debian don't already have themselves. Really. The only power that the
DPL does have, is the power to say "no". But why would a DPL ever want
to do that?

If you, as someone who's not the DPL, want to join a team that requires
delegation, then the DPL can either grant you that delegation (and
everyone's happy), or he can refuse that delegation (and then you'll get
a flamewar). If you, as someone who's not the DPL, want to use Debian
money to do something Debian-related (say, go do a talk, or go to a
meeting, or go represent Debian in some organization somewhere), then
the DPL can either grant you the use of that money (and then everyone's
happy), or he can decide that you don't get the money (and then
something won't happen properly).

As such, if I evaded the question, that's mainly because I think there
*isn't* a good answer to that question.

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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Ben Finney]

Raphael Geissert  writes:

> * Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you
> propose? 

Given that one response to this didn't really address the question, let
me try re-stating it:

* What *specific* actions, requiring DPL powers, will you do as DPL? For
  each of those specific actions, why do you think they need DPL powers?

-- 
 \ “Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine |
  `\  contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time.” |
_o__) —Hippocrates |
Ben Finney


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Re: Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 05:26:55PM -0600, Raphael Geissert wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Reading zack's platform, it makes me wonder why would you (Gergely and 
> Wouter) actually need to be elected as a DPL to do what you mention on your 
> platforms. Especially Wouter: you even state that you want to do some things 
> the way zack has been doing them.

Indeed, because I won't deny that Stefano has been a very good DPL.

But that doesn't mean there aren't things I think could be done
differently. For instance, I think Stefano is focusing a bit too much on
procedural things, rather than on the fact that we're a bunch of people.

> So, the questions are:
> * Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you propose? 

While I do definitely want to do some things similar to the way
Stefano's been doing them (mostly in the area of communication), there
are some things I would like to see the DPL do differently. I can't very
well do DPL stuff if I'm not the DPL (or, at least, not make sure things
happen differently -- I /could/ help out Stefano, should he get elected,
though I'm not sure I would, because I don't think I can make a
difference as a 'helper').

> * If not elected, would you pursue your goals anyway?

Probably not, because it would be difficult to do that.

> * If zack was re-elected, would you follow his initiative to share DPL 
> activities with others?

As above, I don't think I can make much of a difference as a DPL helper.
As the DPL, I would be able to make my own choices and decisions. As a
DPL's helper, I would need to implement someone else's choices, which is
a significant difference.

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Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

[Raphael Geissert]

Hi,

Reading zack's platform, it makes me wonder why would you (Gergely and 
Wouter) actually need to be elected as a DPL to do what you mention on your 
platforms. Especially Wouter: you even state that you want to do some things 
the way zack has been doing them.

So, the questions are:
* Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you propose? 
* If not elected, would you pursue your goals anyway?
* If zack was re-elected, would you follow his initiative to share DPL 
activities with others?

Thanks.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphael Geissert - Debian Developer
www.debian.org - get.debian.net



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