Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 09:57:38AM +0200, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: Hello dear candidates, Debian project raise it's expectation every year: higher quality, more package, more architectures, more Desktops, etc... (cool). How do we face the challenge to do more every year? As Marge also mentioned, the only way to live up to that challenge is to continue to have enough people to work on Debian. This is what I think we need most. What would you do about it, as a DPL? I go into this in more detail in my platform, but in short: attract more people by making Debian be both a more pleasant and a more interesting place to be. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
[ Apologies for this late/out of time answer, I'll try hard to make this
the last time I bother the -vote-rs :-) ]
On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 09:57:38AM +0200, Frank Lin PIAT wrote:
Debian project raise it's expectation every year: higher quality, more
package, more architectures, more Desktops, etc... (cool).
How do we face the challenge to do more every year?
What would you do about it, as a DPL?
There is growth and growth: some needs a good deal of corresponding
manpower growth to be sustainable, some needs less of that.
For instance, we do in per-package quality release after release
(e.g. we add release goals such as piuparts-cleanness, defenses against
weird FTBFS scenarios, etc). This kind of growth can be sustainable
by simply improving our tools and QA checks, and in fact that is what we
have done during the past few release cycles. I do not think the DPL
need to do anything specifically about this kind of growth, beside
helping out in having a project agenda and following it. I've added some
more thoughts on this topic in my platform [1].
Growing in what we maintain (e.g.: packages, architectures) on the
contrary requires an equivalent growth in manpower to be sustainable,
otherwise people will just change the focus of their work, and past
activities will eventually rotten (unless if we assume that the
volunteer time of all of us is constantly increasing, which is
unlikely). The only countermeasure to avoid lagging behind in this, is
increase our ability to attract new contributors. To that end, we've
already discussed in several -vote threads the various plans on how to
attract more people to Debian and I address that in my platform too.
As an executive summary: we need to use our communication media,
starting from the website, to highlight our peculiarities in the current
distro ecosystem. That is our best chance to attract new people. The
role of the DPL in this IMO is to stay in touch with the relevant teams
(e.g. www, press) for collaboration, guidance, and to provide needed
resources.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 06:39:46PM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: I'm not sure why you think so, but I do acknowledge that this is a hard thing to implement. Not wishing to oversimplify, this kind of strategy carries a high risk of conditioning the horse to walk *only* if there's a carrot in front of it. One could eventually argue that we are already in that situation and your proposal is only to change the kind of carrot. Thanks for your time and your answers. I think they provide a good glimpse of the kind of leadership you'd excert, should you be elected. Marcelo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100402172739.ga9...@esk
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
Hello, [switching to debian-project] On Thu, 2010-04-01 at 09:57 +0200, Frank Lin PIAT wrote: Debian project raise it's expectation every year: higher quality, more package, more architectures, more Desktops, etc... (cool). How do we face the challenge to do more every year? This first email introduce a series of emails, which aims to find some super-hyper-mega-brilliant[1] ideas to help the DPL. My first idea will focus on how people can help the DPL without stepping up for a whole year. The second email, will introduce an idea of how to make large/non-technical/boring projects happen. (well maybe) Do you have more 2¢ for the DPL? Franklin [1] I know, April first is over, it may not be so brilliant. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1270243813.3612.1593.ca...@solid.paris.klabs.be
Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
Hello dear candidates, Debian project raise it's expectation every year: higher quality, more package, more architectures, more Desktops, etc... (cool). How do we face the challenge to do more every year? What would you do about it, as a DPL? Thanks to each one of you for being candidate. Franklin -- Hints: the obvious leverage are: productivity, quality and count(DD). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1270108658.3567.722.ca...@solid.paris.klabs.be
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:57 AM, Frank Lin PIAT fp...@klabs.be wrote: Debian project raise it's expectation every year: higher quality, more package, more architectures, more Desktops, etc... (cool). How do we face the challenge to do more every year? There are two important things involved: improve our way of working with tools that make it easier to maintain and improve the quality of our packages, and get more people to help us do our jobs. What would you do about it, as a DPL? As I've already said, I will focus a lot on tying to get more people to help Debian, not necessarily through becoming Debian Developers. By being more welcoming towards the help of non-DD contributors, we could recruit the help of more people, thus reducing the current workload on the developers. One important example is fixing bugs. Developers spend quite a lot of time fixing bugs, and most of the time you don't need to be a DD to fix those bugs, anybody can help out fixing more bugs. Another example is the non-code parts of Debian, like documentation or artwork. Most developers don't have enough time for, or maybe just don't care enough about, these areas; we could definitely use the help of people that are not so code-oriented in order to improve the overall Debian experience. In general, the only way to keep up is to recruit more people, and I plan to work on that. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/j2ie8bbf0361004010724qfcfbfbd4u7189479ba90dd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 11:24:14AM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: One important example is fixing bugs. Developers spend quite a lot of time fixing bugs, and most of the time you don't need to be a DD to fix those bugs, anybody can help out fixing more bugs. Another example is the non-code parts of Debian, like documentation or artwork. Most developers don't have enough time for, or maybe just don't care enough about, these areas; we could definitely use the help of people that are not so code-oriented in order to improve the overall Debian experience. Since you bring it up... Simple question: How? (in case it's not clear: since you seem to think it's part of the DPL's responsabilities, how do you plan to attract people to help with these things?) Marcelo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100401155052.ga32...@esk
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
Le Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 09:57:38AM +0200, Frank Lin PIAT a écrit : Debian project raise it's expectation every year: higher quality, more package, more architectures, more Desktops, etc... (cool). How do we face the challenge to do more every year? What would you do about it, as a DPL? Hi Frank, I think that we should open Debian's door wider, and reduce restrictions on the operations on our infrastructures, so that the growth is sustainable. Cheers, -- Charles -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100401163402.gb19...@kunpuu.plessy.org
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 01:34:02AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: Le Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 09:57:38AM +0200, Frank Lin PIAT a écrit : Debian project raise it's expectation every year: higher quality, more package, more architectures, more Desktops, etc... (cool). How do we face the challenge to do more every year? What would you do about it, as a DPL? Hi Frank, I think that we should open Debian's door wider, and reduce restrictions on the operations on our infrastructures, so that the growth is sustainable. Meaning what, precisely? -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky, Tongue-tied twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100401165913.gb7...@einval.com
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Marcelo E. Magallon mmaga...@debian.org wrote: Simple question: How? (in case it's not clear: since you seem to think it's part of the DPL's responsabilities, how do you plan to attract people to help with these things?) I do not think it's part of the DPL responsibilities. I do think that it's something that Debian needs and that doing it with the DPL hat on is going to make it easier, it's not a requirement (most stuff that DPL candidates list as stuff they'd like to do, do not *require* being DPL, but it helps) I've stated some hows on my platform and on other mails during the campaign. There are many things that could be done, here is a small list that could grow larger: -*- For bugs/package contributors: * Have a constant contest of bug-fixer-of-the-month and bug-reporter-of-the-month. This means listing people and the bugs they fixed and/or reported (I consider reporting GOOD bugs a very important task for a good release). If possible, give the winners of each month some prize (t-shirt, mug, etc), if not possible, at least list them in a hall of fame page. * Have two separate How to help web pages, one for DDs and one for non-DDs, where all teams can list the tasks that they need help with and how to accomplish them. Give these pages as much visibility as possible. For artists: * Have some centralized place where artists can contribute their designs and where users can get those designs to have a cooler look on their Debian system. * Give more recognition to artists that contribute to make Debian Art. Maybe even @debian.org address and the right to vote, to the ones that are committed to Debian. For documentators / translators: * Give more recognition to the work done, as in @debian.org address and the right to vote in elections, even if no package upload rights are given. For everybody: * Make a Debian/Rules campaign, with web-banners (for blogs and the like), t-shirts, and as many other merchandise as can be imagined, aiming to replace the image that Debian is too difficult. -*- These are just some scattered ideas, I'm sure that many more good ideas are floating in other people's minds, and if I'm elected I'd be happy to apply them as well. The important point is to really focus on reaching out and make Debian more welcoming towards more people. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/v2ke8bbf0361004011100y237ae384x491876d6a4e53...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 03:00:29PM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: I do not think it's part of the DPL responsibilities. I do think that it's something that Debian needs and that doing it with the DPL hat on is going to make it easier, it's not a requirement (most stuff that DPL candidates list as stuff they'd like to do, do not *require* being DPL, but it helps) IMO many people, including myself and other DPL candidates, agree with you regarding that this is something that Debian would benefit from. And as you point out, you don't need DPL status to do it. You say it would be easier if you were DPL. Why do you think this is the case? Put in a different perspective, of the things you mention, what's harder to do (and why) if you don't have DPL status? The questions are not purely rethorical: I do believe you are identifying a larger and more complex issue within Debian, one where there's — from my POV — no agreement about whether or not it is an actual *problem* in the organization and if it is, what the solution looks like. (and yes, you could argue that I'm bordering on the question of what do we need a DPL for, but I don't really want to go there) If we agree that these tasks do not need DPL status, and if you are *not* elected DPL, will you try to push forward the things you mention? * Have a constant contest of bug-fixer-of-the-month and bug-reporter-of-the-month. This means listing people and the bugs they fixed and/or reported (I consider reporting GOOD bugs a very important task for a good release). If possible, give the winners of each month some prize (t-shirt, mug, etc), if not possible, at least list them in a hall of fame page. Just for the record, I think this is a very slippery slope. Thanks, Marcelo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100401185218.ga2...@esk
Re: Question to all Candidates: we want more, aren't we?
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:52 PM, Marcelo E. Magallon mmaga...@debian.org wrote: You say it would be easier if you were DPL. Why do you think this is the case? It is inevitable that people will take you more seriously when you are the appointed leader than if you are just a random developer. But also, the ability to delegate someone to do something, which is one of the few things that DPL can actually do, could help into establishing the different teams that would have to be put together. Put in a different perspective, of the things you mention, what's harder to do (and why) if you don't have DPL status? Many of those tasks could be done by anybody. Doing them all at once is not possible, because time is finite. So, by being DPL, I could delegate to the right teams to get the tasks done. By being just one more DD, I'd have to choose one project and do only that one. Changing the way we handle membership (that I listed as a possible way to reaching more people) is something that is *not* part of my DPL plans, it requires going through a GR that I think should be pushed by the appropriate people (DAM and FD). The questions are not purely rethorical: I do believe you are identifying a larger and more complex issue within Debian, one where there's — from my POV — no agreement about whether or not it is an actual *problem* in the organization and if it is, what the solution looks like. Uhm, I think that the lack of enough people is an identified problem by most of the developer community. The ideas on how to fix this lack of enough people may vary, but fact that we need to somehow get more people to help I think it's pretty established. (and yes, you could argue that I'm bordering on the question of what do we need a DPL for, but I don't really want to go there) We need the DPL to lead. It's not possible for one person to do everything, we need a leader that manages to get the developers to work together on common goals, so that it's not just a one-person-show, but a project-wide-effort. If we agree that these tasks do not need DPL status, and if you are *not* elected DPL, will you try to push forward the things you mention? I'm not sure. if I am not elected DPL, most probably I will devote as much time as possible on getting squeeze ready for release. But I might try to get the ball rolling for one or two of the ideas listed in my platform. * Have a constant contest of bug-fixer-of-the-month and bug-reporter-of-the-month. This means listing people and the bugs they fixed and/or reported (I consider reporting GOOD bugs a very important task for a good release). If possible, give the winners of each month some prize (t-shirt, mug, etc), if not possible, at least list them in a hall of fame page. Just for the record, I think this is a very slippery slope. I'm not sure why you think so, but I do acknowledge that this is a hard thing to implement. I'd like this contest to be fair and to be above all about making Debian better, not about personal glory, some limitations would need to be implemented so that nobody tries to abuse it. However, if there are well kept rules, I think that it could mean quite a lot of motivation for a lot of people. I'm open to suggestions on how to make this better and less slippery. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/o2me8bbf0361004011439k9554c50cy61fae1579a353...@mail.gmail.com
