Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Michael Banck]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 03:53:00PM +1030, Ron wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 06:25:47PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> > Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that
> > I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some
> > concrete examples.
> 
> The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises.  It has been
> claimed  that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- 

Uhm, care to back this up? It's certainly not how I experienced the last
year.

 * Martin actively worked on improving the mips/mipsel/arm autobuilders
   situation by organizing hardware and coordinating with the
   admins[1][2]

 * He played an excellent role in toning down and moderating the evil
   elmo/buildd/nm flamewar through thoughtful, calming mails.
   Both Ingo Juergensmann and Goswin Brederlow acknowledged that he was
   responsive and trying to solve their 'issues'.

 * He coordinated internally with all the important infrastructure
   groups, resulting in new listmasters, a new security officer
   and a much smoother processing of NM applicants.

 * One of the first visible things he did was defending our reputation
   when 'Trusted Debian' was announced. By talking to them he made them
   change their name to 'Adamantix' and also setup a Trademark committee
   [3]

 * In order to settle the GFDL license problems, he supported the GDL
   commitee doing direct negotiations with the FSF. He also talked to
   Bradley Kuhn directly on how to solve this issue.

 * He made it possible for some developers to better work on the
   critical things they do for Debian, like organizing better hardware
   for them or arrange for real-life meetings.

These are only the major things I remember from last year, taken from
all areas a DPL should be active in, IMHO (internal communication,
internal coordination, external representation, external cooperation).

If you google for 'site:lists.debian.org "From: Martin Michlmayr -
Debian Project Leader"', you can get all the small bits he did
internally - I'm sure he also wrote loads of DPL mail to external
parties.

Apart from that, I see his enthusiasm and dedication for the project and
his job as leader daily on the mailing-lists and on irc.

> If, as both you and Branden assert in your campaigning, things are mostly
> ok, but as always, can be improved -- and if the people in a position to
> make those improvements are already aware of and working on the issues,
> then why is it that we need, or would even want, anything other than a
> Do Nothing DPL, that justs gets on with their own part of that, and
> keeps everybody smiling for most of the rest of the time?

IMO, the project would get along fine without a DPL or a 'do nothing
DPL'. But as the last year has shown, it will be much better off with an
DPL who actively tries to resolve issues and faciliate the work of
others.


cheers,

Michael

-- 
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0402/msg00463.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0311/msg01269.html
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project-0309/msg4.html

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-03-12 15:53]:
> > Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest
> > and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete
> > examples.

>  Why is it that you think I said *you* were not h&e? 
> (and I don't expect you to answer that here, but I do hope you'll think
> about it)

Because you explictly said so, unless I've mistaken your mail.  I was
surprised by this (because I think I'm honest and enthusiastic) which
is why I asked.

You wrote:

 | My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic*
 | about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share
 | that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen.

 | What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they
 | have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are
 | prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them
 | support to that end.

This seems to suggests that you think both Branden and I are dishonest
and not enthusiastic.

> The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises.  It has
> been claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL --
> my own personal experience with you has indeed shown that you've
> been quite low key compared to what I was led to expect at the last
> election.

The kind of tasks I carry out are summarized for example in
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003/debian-devel-announce-200310/msg00014.html
I think they are all very important, and while you may often not
notice those changes, they are vital in order to ensure that the
project is running smoothly.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Michael Banck]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 03:53:00PM +1030, Ron wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 06:25:47PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> > Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that
> > I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some
> > concrete examples.
> 
> The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises.  It has been
> claimed  that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- 

Uhm, care to back this up? It's certainly not how I experienced the last
year.

 * Martin actively worked on improving the mips/mipsel/arm autobuilders
   situation by organizing hardware and coordinating with the
   admins[1][2]

 * He played an excellent role in toning down and moderating the evil
   elmo/buildd/nm flamewar through thoughtful, calming mails.
   Both Ingo Juergensmann and Goswin Brederlow acknowledged that he was
   responsive and trying to solve their 'issues'.

 * He coordinated internally with all the important infrastructure
   groups, resulting in new listmasters, a new security officer
   and a much smoother processing of NM applicants.

 * One of the first visible things he did was defending our reputation
   when 'Trusted Debian' was announced. By talking to them he made them
   change their name to 'Adamantix' and also setup a Trademark committee
   [3]

 * In order to settle the GFDL license problems, he supported the GDL
   commitee doing direct negotiations with the FSF. He also talked to
   Bradley Kuhn directly on how to solve this issue.

 * He made it possible for some developers to better work on the
   critical things they do for Debian, like organizing better hardware
   for them or arrange for real-life meetings.

These are only the major things I remember from last year, taken from
all areas a DPL should be active in, IMHO (internal communication,
internal coordination, external representation, external cooperation).

If you google for 'site:lists.debian.org "From: Martin Michlmayr -
Debian Project Leader"', you can get all the small bits he did
internally - I'm sure he also wrote loads of DPL mail to external
parties.

Apart from that, I see his enthusiasm and dedication for the project and
his job as leader daily on the mailing-lists and on irc.

> If, as both you and Branden assert in your campaigning, things are mostly
> ok, but as always, can be improved -- and if the people in a position to
> make those improvements are already aware of and working on the issues,
> then why is it that we need, or would even want, anything other than a
> Do Nothing DPL, that justs gets on with their own part of that, and
> keeps everybody smiling for most of the rest of the time?

IMO, the project would get along fine without a DPL or a 'do nothing
DPL'. But as the last year has shown, it will be much better off with an
DPL who actively tries to resolve issues and faciliate the work of
others.


cheers,

Michael

-- 
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0402/msg00463.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0311/msg01269.html
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project-0309/msg4.html


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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-03-12 15:53]:
> > Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest
> > and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete
> > examples.

>  Why is it that you think I said *you* were not h&e? 
> (and I don't expect you to answer that here, but I do hope you'll think
> about it)

Because you explictly said so, unless I've mistaken your mail.  I was
surprised by this (because I think I'm honest and enthusiastic) which
is why I asked.

You wrote:

 | My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic*
 | about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share
 | that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen.

 | What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they
 | have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are
 | prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them
 | support to that end.

This seems to suggests that you think both Branden and I are dishonest
and not enthusiastic.

> The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises.  It has
> been claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL --
> my own personal experience with you has indeed shown that you've
> been quite low key compared to what I was led to expect at the last
> election.

The kind of tasks I carry out are summarized for example in
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003/debian-devel-announce-200310/msg00014.html
I think they are all very important, and while you may often not
notice those changes, they are vital in order to ensure that the
project is running smoothly.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Ron]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 06:25:47PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> * Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-03-11 15:24]:
> > My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic*
> > about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to
> > share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen.
> > 
> > What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that
> > they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that
> > they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will
> > win them support to that end.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing what you think my personal reasons are
> for running for DPL.

Then next time you are anywhere near Adelaide, give me a call, and
we can talk about it over some beers.  In the meantime, I think the
bandwidth on -vote (which you cc'd) could be better put to use hearing
them from you.

You are the one aiming to be leader@ -- give me a reason why I should
follow your vision instead of simply my own (shaped, of course, daily
by the community I am a part of).

Anyone who understands the distinction I am making here will understand
what I mean by a Do Nothing DPL.


> Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that
> I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some
> concrete examples.

 Why is it that you think I said *you* were not h&e? 
(and I don't expect you to answer that here, but I do hope you'll think
about it)

The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises.  It has been
claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- my own
personal experience with you has indeed shown that you've been quite low
key compared to what I was led to expect at the last election.  I for
one appreciate that, and I certainly wouldn't label you as having been
'harmful' in the role as you have played it.  As to the general "more
good stuff, less bad stuff" issues, I think its pretty much been
progress as usual without any major leaps in either direction over the
last year.  So ...

If, as both you and Branden assert in your campaigning, things are mostly
ok, but as always, can be improved -- and if the people in a position to
make those improvements are already aware of and working on the issues,
then why is it that we need, or would even want, anything other than a
Do Nothing DPL, that justs gets on with their own part of that, and
keeps everybody smiling for most of the rest of the time?

If we don't need centralised redirection this year, why do we need a
leader who is promising to change things anyway?  And if we do, it will
in all likelyhood be led by the people who are already in a position of
'power' over the particular situation (as we saw when the compromise
caused a major and sudden shakeup of our practices).

Given this situation, if you want my second preference over this year's
do nothing but have fun candidate, perhaps you would like to describe
what changes have occurred to the project over your term in this role
that would not have happened had you not held it, and maybe how that
fits in with your platform and its evolution from last year to next?

If you want my first preference, you're going to need to actually
place some bets about what needs to change and how you think you can
effect that change for the project.

As I said, I think what we need is a leader with a clear vision of what
the project needs from that role over the next year or so.  And it is
a rare and wise leader indeed that knows when not to lead.

Gergely strikes me as either blatantly that wise, or a total raving fool.
In either case, if a Do Nothing DPL is what we need, then he couldn't do
better if he came equipped with a Zaphod skin for his tama.

"King of the Bean" festivals have apparently been a healthy part of
many cultures over the ages.  Perhaps its high time Debian had one.

...instead of burning out otherwise talented people in a typically
token role.

And we can always recall him if he was to do something stupid like, say,
appoint someone to 'help' elmo, then snub elmo in all future
communication.  But then I've never seen Gergely hound elmo off of IRC
either, so that is probably not likely to be a problem in his case.

  Ron

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Ron]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 06:25:47PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> * Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-03-11 15:24]:
> > My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic*
> > about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to
> > share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen.
> > 
> > What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that
> > they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that
> > they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will
> > win them support to that end.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing what you think my personal reasons are
> for running for DPL.

Then next time you are anywhere near Adelaide, give me a call, and
we can talk about it over some beers.  In the meantime, I think the
bandwidth on -vote (which you cc'd) could be better put to use hearing
them from you.

You are the one aiming to be leader@ -- give me a reason why I should
follow your vision instead of simply my own (shaped, of course, daily
by the community I am a part of).

Anyone who understands the distinction I am making here will understand
what I mean by a Do Nothing DPL.


> Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that
> I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some
> concrete examples.

 Why is it that you think I said *you* were not h&e? 
(and I don't expect you to answer that here, but I do hope you'll think
about it)

The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises.  It has been
claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- my own
personal experience with you has indeed shown that you've been quite low
key compared to what I was led to expect at the last election.  I for
one appreciate that, and I certainly wouldn't label you as having been
'harmful' in the role as you have played it.  As to the general "more
good stuff, less bad stuff" issues, I think its pretty much been
progress as usual without any major leaps in either direction over the
last year.  So ...

If, as both you and Branden assert in your campaigning, things are mostly
ok, but as always, can be improved -- and if the people in a position to
make those improvements are already aware of and working on the issues,
then why is it that we need, or would even want, anything other than a
Do Nothing DPL, that justs gets on with their own part of that, and
keeps everybody smiling for most of the rest of the time?

If we don't need centralised redirection this year, why do we need a
leader who is promising to change things anyway?  And if we do, it will
in all likelyhood be led by the people who are already in a position of
'power' over the particular situation (as we saw when the compromise
caused a major and sudden shakeup of our practices).

Given this situation, if you want my second preference over this year's
do nothing but have fun candidate, perhaps you would like to describe
what changes have occurred to the project over your term in this role
that would not have happened had you not held it, and maybe how that
fits in with your platform and its evolution from last year to next?

If you want my first preference, you're going to need to actually
place some bets about what needs to change and how you think you can
effect that change for the project.

As I said, I think what we need is a leader with a clear vision of what
the project needs from that role over the next year or so.  And it is
a rare and wise leader indeed that knows when not to lead.

Gergely strikes me as either blatantly that wise, or a total raving fool.
In either case, if a Do Nothing DPL is what we need, then he couldn't do
better if he came equipped with a Zaphod skin for his tama.

"King of the Bean" festivals have apparently been a healthy part of
many cultures over the ages.  Perhaps its high time Debian had one.

...instead of burning out otherwise talented people in a typically
token role.

And we can always recall him if he was to do something stupid like, say,
appoint someone to 'help' elmo, then snub elmo in all future
communication.  But then I've never seen Gergely hound elmo off of IRC
either, so that is probably not likely to be a problem in his case.

  Ron



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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-03-11 15:24]:
> My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic*
> about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to
> share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen.
> 
> What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that
> they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that
> they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will
> win them support to that end.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think my personal reasons are
for running for DPL.  Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that
I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some
concrete examples.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-03-11 15:24]:
> My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic*
> about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to
> share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen.
> 
> What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that
> they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that
> they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will
> win them support to that end.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think my personal reasons are
for running for DPL.  Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that
I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some
concrete examples.

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Anthony Towns]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 09:34:26PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > > Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
> > > stream of unacceptable noise.
> > Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to
> > Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project?
> Whatever criticisms you may have of Branden's language and tone, it
> pales by comparison with Craig's, just unleashed on this mailing list,
> and you don't seem to have had anything to say about it.  

Well, for example, Branden for a long time had the "How About A Nice Cup
Of Shut The Fuck Up" as the X Strike Force's official motto; and the old
XSF url now has the title "You like the cup. Drink from the cup." with
the image sans its description.

Historically, Branden's also written things like:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg01933.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2001/debian-x-200110/msg00144.html
http://ned.ucam.org/~robot101/irc-quotes

(pipe the last one through head -5), which don't strike me as particularly
more polite than Craig's venting. It's probable Branden's changed since
he said those things; at the very least he's a lot more circumspect about
offending people as evidenced by the changes to the XSF's motto. I'm not
sure being circumspect about it isn't worse -- "Drink from the cup."
still seems to be telling people to shut up, but if anyone ends up
offended, they're likely to be ridiculed for reading too much into things,
and be forced to either live with the continued annoyance, or leave.

> This makes me think it isn't Branden's tone that bothers you.
> Nor, for that matter, has Branden used such a tone in recent memory,
> as far as I've seen.

Well, for instance after fixing an RC bug just yesterday he wrote on the
IRC development channel:

 2 more tests to go
 xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the upgrade test
 xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the downgrade test
 yeah, suck my dick, fucking RC bug

I don't think it's remotely reasonable to think that this issue is the
fault of any particular individuals, and I don't think it's just a matter
of eliminating "fuck" from our vocabulary.

I also don't think we'll manage to get anywhere without some sort
of consensus on what sort of behaviour is okay and what isn't, and I
don't think we're likely to get any level of consensus if you, Craig,
Branden, myself, or anyone else who's come under strong criticism for
not being appropriately approachable or transparent try to set the
standards. I certainly can't imagine any consensus being achieved if
people aren't willing to make basic adjustments that they think are
unfair or unreasonable personally, but that don't really matter as far
as Debian's goals go, eg, say, not flirting with chicks involved with
Debian, not making issues personal, or not swearing.

But, again, I'm almost certainly not the one to be saying which of those
things Debian should allow, and which we should discourage.

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

 Linux.conf.au 2004 -- Because we could.
   http://conf.linux.org.au/ -- Jan 12-17, 2004


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Description: Digital signature

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
> > stream of unacceptable noise.
> 
> Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to
> Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project?

Whatever criticisms you may have of Branden's language and tone, it
pales by comparison with Craig's, just unleashed on this mailing list,
and you don't seem to have had anything to say about it.  This makes
me think it isn't Branden's tone that bothers you.

Nor, for that matter, has Branden used such a tone in recent memory,
as far as I've seen.

Thomas

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Ron]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
> stream of unacceptable noise.

Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to
Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project?

If the latter, that is well on record, both the positive and negative
aspects and I admire him for the one though I quite depise his "but I
didn't inhale" on the other.

If the former, well that is on the record too, so I say lock them in a
sound proof room together, for all our sakes.  If people want to watch
they can set up a webcam separate from Debian.

In either case I have no idea what particular 'stream of noise' you are
talking about.  Both of them unleash them regularly (and they certainly
don't have the sole licence to that), and it certainly contributes to
the lack of attention _I_ give things in most of the forums where they
do it.

If you consider cas latest actions unacceptable then instigate whatever
remedy is available to you.  I can't censure him on things I haven't seen.

> If we want to make Debian more
> attractive to whatever sort of people are turned off by rudeness and
> public verbal flogging, Branden should not be your first concern.

Branden is not my first concern when it comes to these problems, but
Craig (who may not be the leader in this field either) is not running
for DPL.  Branden just happened to put his foot in a big smelly pile
of it here while he was adjusting his posture.

My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic*
about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share
that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen.

What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they
have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are
prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them
support to that end.  I don't find that very encouraging.  It provably
does not work to select a successful government, I don't see why it
should work any better for us.

Branden brought up the issue of a "Do nothing DPL" once again, in an
attempt to score a cheap political point.  In many ways, I wished to
have raised the same question myself.  But it doesn't only apply to the
incumbent.  Branden has become quite a regular at these elections (and
IIRC I even voted for him the first time around), and he also scorned
this idea -- so my questions to him would be:

a) What have you done over the last two years to fix the things your
platform says you consider important, and why will holding the title DPL
enable you to be less of a Do Nothing DPL than your predecessor (in
conjunction with yourself) may have been with respect to those things
should you ever get it?

b) How have you (or any of the rest of us for that matter) hindered the
ability of the incumbent DPL(s) in achieving these things their own way?


Frankly, the way I see it (and none of you have to agree with me), if
we do not have a candidate with a clear vision of a different and better
project in the future, then by simple definiton we *have* a Do Nothing DPL.
Sure they talk to people, do stuff for the project, and give non-specific
technical advice about non-specific technical things, but to bring back
the NM argument, you don't need to be DPL to do any of those things.

So if we are going to have a Do Nothing DPL in any case, then we might
as well have one who is honest and enthusiastic about taking it on in
that spirit until someone with a real and brilliant vision to share
comes along again.

Beware then Gergelybrush Nagywood, it is too late to nominate anyone
else, and you might be left holding the body _and_ the tama when the
coroner arrives...

  Ron

(who's tempted to propose a GR on the subject of banning future self
 nominations for DPL and requiring candidates to have their nomination
 seconded by some minimum number of developers -- but not to discourage
 people like Gergely)

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Anthony Towns]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 09:34:26PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > > Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
> > > stream of unacceptable noise.
> > Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to
> > Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project?
> Whatever criticisms you may have of Branden's language and tone, it
> pales by comparison with Craig's, just unleashed on this mailing list,
> and you don't seem to have had anything to say about it.  

Well, for example, Branden for a long time had the "How About A Nice Cup
Of Shut The Fuck Up" as the X Strike Force's official motto; and the old
XSF url now has the title "You like the cup. Drink from the cup." with
the image sans its description.

Historically, Branden's also written things like:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg01933.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2001/debian-x-200110/msg00144.html
http://ned.ucam.org/~robot101/irc-quotes

(pipe the last one through head -5), which don't strike me as particularly
more polite than Craig's venting. It's probable Branden's changed since
he said those things; at the very least he's a lot more circumspect about
offending people as evidenced by the changes to the XSF's motto. I'm not
sure being circumspect about it isn't worse -- "Drink from the cup."
still seems to be telling people to shut up, but if anyone ends up
offended, they're likely to be ridiculed for reading too much into things,
and be forced to either live with the continued annoyance, or leave.

> This makes me think it isn't Branden's tone that bothers you.
> Nor, for that matter, has Branden used such a tone in recent memory,
> as far as I've seen.

Well, for instance after fixing an RC bug just yesterday he wrote on the
IRC development channel:

 2 more tests to go
 xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the upgrade test
 xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the downgrade test
 yeah, suck my dick, fucking RC bug

I don't think it's remotely reasonable to think that this issue is the
fault of any particular individuals, and I don't think it's just a matter
of eliminating "fuck" from our vocabulary.

I also don't think we'll manage to get anywhere without some sort
of consensus on what sort of behaviour is okay and what isn't, and I
don't think we're likely to get any level of consensus if you, Craig,
Branden, myself, or anyone else who's come under strong criticism for
not being appropriately approachable or transparent try to set the
standards. I certainly can't imagine any consensus being achieved if
people aren't willing to make basic adjustments that they think are
unfair or unreasonable personally, but that don't really matter as far
as Debian's goals go, eg, say, not flirting with chicks involved with
Debian, not making issues personal, or not swearing.

But, again, I'm almost certainly not the one to be saying which of those
things Debian should allow, and which we should discourage.

Cheers,
aj

-- 
Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

 Linux.conf.au 2004 -- Because we could.
   http://conf.linux.org.au/ -- Jan 12-17, 2004


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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
> > stream of unacceptable noise.
> 
> Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to
> Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project?

Whatever criticisms you may have of Branden's language and tone, it
pales by comparison with Craig's, just unleashed on this mailing list,
and you don't seem to have had anything to say about it.  This makes
me think it isn't Branden's tone that bothers you.

Nor, for that matter, has Branden used such a tone in recent memory,
as far as I've seen.

Thomas


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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Ron]

On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
> stream of unacceptable noise.

Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to
Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project?

If the latter, that is well on record, both the positive and negative
aspects and I admire him for the one though I quite depise his "but I
didn't inhale" on the other.

If the former, well that is on the record too, so I say lock them in a
sound proof room together, for all our sakes.  If people want to watch
they can set up a webcam separate from Debian.

In either case I have no idea what particular 'stream of noise' you are
talking about.  Both of them unleash them regularly (and they certainly
don't have the sole licence to that), and it certainly contributes to
the lack of attention _I_ give things in most of the forums where they
do it.

If you consider cas latest actions unacceptable then instigate whatever
remedy is available to you.  I can't censure him on things I haven't seen.

> If we want to make Debian more
> attractive to whatever sort of people are turned off by rudeness and
> public verbal flogging, Branden should not be your first concern.

Branden is not my first concern when it comes to these problems, but
Craig (who may not be the leader in this field either) is not running
for DPL.  Branden just happened to put his foot in a big smelly pile
of it here while he was adjusting his posture.

My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic*
about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share
that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen.

What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they
have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are
prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them
support to that end.  I don't find that very encouraging.  It provably
does not work to select a successful government, I don't see why it
should work any better for us.

Branden brought up the issue of a "Do nothing DPL" once again, in an
attempt to score a cheap political point.  In many ways, I wished to
have raised the same question myself.  But it doesn't only apply to the
incumbent.  Branden has become quite a regular at these elections (and
IIRC I even voted for him the first time around), and he also scorned
this idea -- so my questions to him would be:

a) What have you done over the last two years to fix the things your
platform says you consider important, and why will holding the title DPL
enable you to be less of a Do Nothing DPL than your predecessor (in
conjunction with yourself) may have been with respect to those things
should you ever get it?

b) How have you (or any of the rest of us for that matter) hindered the
ability of the incumbent DPL(s) in achieving these things their own way?


Frankly, the way I see it (and none of you have to agree with me), if
we do not have a candidate with a clear vision of a different and better
project in the future, then by simple definiton we *have* a Do Nothing DPL.
Sure they talk to people, do stuff for the project, and give non-specific
technical advice about non-specific technical things, but to bring back
the NM argument, you don't need to be DPL to do any of those things.

So if we are going to have a Do Nothing DPL in any case, then we might
as well have one who is honest and enthusiastic about taking it on in
that spirit until someone with a real and brilliant vision to share
comes along again.

Beware then Gergelybrush Nagywood, it is too late to nominate anyone
else, and you might be left holding the body _and_ the tama when the
coroner arrives...

  Ron

(who's tempted to propose a GR on the subject of banning future self
 nominations for DPL and requiring candidates to have their nomination
 seconded by some minimum number of developers -- but not to discourage
 people like Gergely)



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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> And yet still its not short enough to already know your preference for
> a public flogging over any exercise involving self restraint.

Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
stream of unacceptable noise.  If we want to make Debian more
attractive to whatever sort of people are turned off by rudeness and
public verbal flogging, Branden should not be your first concern.

Debian has already decided, through persistent and obstinant inaction,
that Craig should be tolerated, no matter how many people he turns off
from Debian.

Thomas

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Raul Miller]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 09:22:27AM +1030, Ron wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I've drunk to excess in biker pubs before, but I
> think the important part of what what Manoj was inferring was:
> Keep it in texas dude.  (and if he wasn't then I am)
> 
> That goes double for the 'baby kissing' bandwidth waste too.  (which
> offends me personally more than most other things you say).

I think he's doing a pretty good job of demonstrating how he'd approach
the post, and in drawing lines between other contexts and this one.

Near as I can tell, you're offended by what I perceive a sane and decent
approach to these issues.

However, if you have some relevant criticism, please be specific so that
people like me can follow along.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Ron]

> Branden writes:
> On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 11:06:40PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > Indeed.  For once I am ashamed to be a member of such a narrow
> >  minded, bigoted group.
> > 
> > Helen, please accept my apologies;  we are not quite grown up
> >  enough to be able to interact with women yet.
>
> Speak for yourself, sir.
>
> ...
>
> I refuse to characterize Debian by anyone's rash actions, or even by
> our rashest members.  To do so deeply devalues our better-behaved
> comrades, who are in the majority.
>
> I, for one, see a distinction between problem-solving and
> self-flagellation.  In my view, the latter is of extremely questionable
> utility.

Given that you previously characterised yourself as one of our 'rashest'
members, I must congratulate you on such carefully equivocal wording in
your objection to Manoj's apology.

My memory is not so short that it doesn't recall a flood from you on
a Debian irc channel, shortly after a Debian event in NY, that would have
made nugg look like a victorian gentleman.

Nor so short as to recall that your own contribution to this sad state
(under the guise of self satisfying humor), extends beyond any women
that might have contact with the project to its (even hetero) male
participants, and to the women of any south east asian countries they
might be visiting.

And yet still its not short enough to already know your preference for
a public flogging over any exercise involving self restraint.

I'm grateful in a small way that you at least contained such outbursts
to a limited scope, from where I couldn't quote them here even if I was
to want them repeated for this audience.

Don't get me wrong, I've drunk to excess in biker pubs before, but I
think the important part of what what Manoj was inferring was:
Keep it in texas dude.  (and if he wasn't then I am)

That goes double for the 'baby kissing' bandwidth waste too.  (which
offends me personally more than most other things you say).

I hereby offer a premonition.  Overfiend will never be DPL until he
matures enough to become his own asshole again.

(bets or enquiries from the James Randy foundation to private mail
 please)

  Ron

Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

Ron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> And yet still its not short enough to already know your preference for
> a public flogging over any exercise involving self restraint.

Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a
stream of unacceptable noise.  If we want to make Debian more
attractive to whatever sort of people are turned off by rudeness and
public verbal flogging, Branden should not be your first concern.

Debian has already decided, through persistent and obstinant inaction,
that Craig should be tolerated, no matter how many people he turns off
from Debian.

Thomas


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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Raul Miller]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 09:22:27AM +1030, Ron wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I've drunk to excess in biker pubs before, but I
> think the important part of what what Manoj was inferring was:
> Keep it in texas dude.  (and if he wasn't then I am)
> 
> That goes double for the 'baby kissing' bandwidth waste too.  (which
> offends me personally more than most other things you say).

I think he's doing a pretty good job of demonstrating how he'd approach
the post, and in drawing lines between other contexts and this one.

Near as I can tell, you're offended by what I perceive a sane and decent
approach to these issues.

However, if you have some relevant criticism, please be specific so that
people like me can follow along.

Thanks,

-- 
Raul


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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer

[Ron]

> Branden writes:
> On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 11:06:40PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > Indeed.  For once I am ashamed to be a member of such a narrow
> >  minded, bigoted group.
> > 
> > Helen, please accept my apologies;  we are not quite grown up
> >  enough to be able to interact with women yet.
>
> Speak for yourself, sir.
>
> ...
>
> I refuse to characterize Debian by anyone's rash actions, or even by
> our rashest members.  To do so deeply devalues our better-behaved
> comrades, who are in the majority.
>
> I, for one, see a distinction between problem-solving and
> self-flagellation.  In my view, the latter is of extremely questionable
> utility.

Given that you previously characterised yourself as one of our 'rashest'
members, I must congratulate you on such carefully equivocal wording in
your objection to Manoj's apology.

My memory is not so short that it doesn't recall a flood from you on
a Debian irc channel, shortly after a Debian event in NY, that would have
made nugg look like a victorian gentleman.

Nor so short as to recall that your own contribution to this sad state
(under the guise of self satisfying humor), extends beyond any women
that might have contact with the project to its (even hetero) male
participants, and to the women of any south east asian countries they
might be visiting.

And yet still its not short enough to already know your preference for
a public flogging over any exercise involving self restraint.

I'm grateful in a small way that you at least contained such outbursts
to a limited scope, from where I couldn't quote them here even if I was
to want them repeated for this audience.

Don't get me wrong, I've drunk to excess in biker pubs before, but I
think the important part of what what Manoj was inferring was:
Keep it in texas dude.  (and if he wasn't then I am)

That goes double for the 'baby kissing' bandwidth waste too.  (which
offends me personally more than most other things you say).

I hereby offer a premonition.  Overfiend will never be DPL until he
matures enough to become his own asshole again.

(bets or enquiries from the James Randy foundation to private mail
 please)

  Ron



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