Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[Chris Tillman]

This seems like a great plan, we should implement at least the top
level very quickly so the website has a new look to go with the new
release.

-- 
*--v- Installing Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 v--*
|    |
|   debian-imac (potato):    |
|Chris Tillman[EMAIL PROTECTED]  |
|   May the Source be with you   |
**

/org/search.debian.org/www/makelinks.sh

[Tor Slettnes]

Is the 'makelinks.sh' script in search.debian.org run automatically
(through Cron or otherwise)?

If not, could someone run it?  (To add Norwegian search)

Thanks in advance.

-tor

-- 
Får i ulveklær

Re: Deliberate web site reorganization

[Josip Rodin]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 05:41:31PM -0500, Jeff Albro wrote:
> If you take a look at the server logs, you can see where people went from
> the main page. (grep for home page as referring link)

How does this work? I don't get it. Maybe it's just that www.d.o Apache logs
don't track referrers...

> You can tell how people are using it now.  I suspect you won't find people
> clicking on the "Debian International" link because it is not clear what
> it means.

That's not necessarily true -- the "international" users, read: non-native
English speakers, see things like that on the web. It usually leads them to
a page that describes something that's interesting to them.

And TBH I can't think of a better term to replace this...

> Do more people read the DWN than the event centered news releases?

% zgrep News/weekly/current/issue www.debian.org-access.log{,.0,.?.gz} | wc -l
   4449
% zgrep News/weekly/2001 www.debian.org-access.log{,.0,.?.gz} | wc -l
  17585
% zgrep News/2001 www.debian.org-access.log{,.0,.?.gz} | wc -l
  19056

That's since Dec 4th.

Then again, this isn't such a useful statistic -- the weekly news are posted
regularly and it's logical to expect they'd have more readers. The other
news items are usually boring, too. ;)

> Are more than 5% of people going to the mirrors?  Are they worth having? 

% zgrep redirect.pl access.log access.log.0 access.log.?.gz | wc -l
   7513

That's also since Dec 4th.

Bear in mind that once you change to the mirror you don't invoke the script
anymore (because the in-site links are meant to stay within the site), so
this only counts those people who switch from one mirror to another.

> Instead of a link to the security mailing list, let people input their
> e-mail address.

That would be pushing it... like SatireWire.com says, "Gertrude Stein died
in 1946, so you should join our MAILING LIST". :)

> I.E.  Should the user find a link to /docs/books if they follow the bigger
> link to /docs?  Right now they don't.

Uh, sure they do...

There are also several user-oriented manuals written for Debian GNU/Linux,
available as printed books. Of special note
is http://www.newriders.com/debian/html/noframes/node1.html";>Debian
GNU/Linux: Guide to Installation and Usage.

> Should different parts of the website look different?  Clearly all parts
> of Debian need to look like they are part of Debian, but there could be
> subtle clues.  (A CD behind the swirl on cds.debian.org, etc)

Makes sense...

> * A fact based analysis of where we are now.

Too depressing ;)

> * A set of design guidelines (maybe a small web policy manual?)

The primary guideline so far seems to be "What others don't protest to" :)

Heck, now that I think about it, that's one of the better guidelines on the
web today. If only some other webmasters followed it...

> * Prototype sites put up for review (with a specific comment period as
> many volunteers have different schedules, and we should make sure people
> get a fair chance to air their concerns.)
> 
> * A final decision process (voting, benevolent dictator, etc..)

I know you didn't like me redoing /doc/ without a nice process, but let's
face it, if I hadn't done it, we would have been stuck with that old page
for God knows how much longer...

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Deliberate web site reorganization

[James A. Treacy]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 05:41:31PM -0500, Jeff Albro wrote:
> 
> If you take a look at the server logs, you can see where people went from
> the main page. (grep for home page as referring link)  You can tell how
> people are using it now.  I suspect you won't find people clicking on the
> "Debian International" link because it is not clear what it means.  Maybe
> you'll find that 90% go straight to the installation.  Do more people read
> the DWN than the event centered news releases?  Are more than 5% of people
> going to the mirrors?  Are they worth having?  Let's find out!
> 
http://klecker.debian.org/webalizer/

What the logs don't tell you is the feedback the webmasters have
received. They also don't tell you intention. It is very easy to have
a frequently requested page that is only requested because users are
misled. If you find any specific pages that are not convenient but
frequently requested, please let us know.

It is always dangerous to design by a single criteria. There are always
competing criteria you are trying to optimize. Frequently the goals are
at odds with each other. Trying to optimize common paths is competing with
the goals of keeping pages a reasonable length (not to short or long) and
keeping related material together.

> A basic guideline:  Make links based on action.  "Install Debian"
> "Support Debian"  Use verbs.  Let people take direct action.  Instead of a
> link to the security mailing list, let people input their e-mail address.
> 
Name links using verbs. Not a bad idea. It's not clear what you mean by
the e-mail address for security mailing list though.

> Can we agree that the MAIN purpose of a homepage is to jump off to further
> information?  I think the news and secruity updates belong on the page,
> but need to remain secondary priorities.
> 
This is what is being advocated in the RFC.

[stuff about design snipped]
I'm a firm believer that form should follow function. Thus, we should
figure out what we want where and then discuss what the pages shold look
like. At least make it a different thread. If you feel otherwise, I'd
like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

> I guess what I am asking for is DELIBERATE redesign.  To me, this means:
> 
It seems to me that is what the RFC is for. I deliberately kept the RFC
on the short side (left out a lot of reasoning) so people would actually
read it. :)

-- 
James (Jay) Treacy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[Grant Bowman]

[oops, slipped by Jeff.  I wrote this before I read his post, so read 
this with a grain of salt.  -- Grant ]

Intuitively, this approach seems better to me.  It keeps the types of
users in mind and provides them with the information they need.  That is
the basic function of a website in the overall scheme of things.  It's
more work trying to understand different kinds of users, but I feel it's
more appropriate and will help us.


* Josip Rodin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [011214 11:17]:
> On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:39:33PM -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:
> > My idea of a main page is one that let's you quickly find a subpage that
> > will get you the information you want. With that in mind, the new front
> > page will have less information than it currently has.
> > 
> > Links:
> >   About Debian
> >   News
> >   Getting Debian
> >   Developers' Corner
> >   International Pages
> >   Documentation/Support Pages
> >   Security
> >   Supported Architectures
> >   Supporting Debian
> >   Site Map
> >   Search
> 
> Looks like you would have the main page provide links the most important
> other pages. I think this would be okay, but it's ignoring the types of
> users.
> 
> I was thinking of a little bit different approach. I think the people who
> are visiting www.debian.org (and mirrors, of course :) can be divided into
> the following categories:
> 
>   * random surfers (just cruisin', or interested in installing Linux -- to
> us there is little difference due to the nature of our
> distribution)

I don't fully comprehend your comment.  You mean because our website
doesn't support first-timers and needs a reorganization?  I'm only 1/2
kidding.

I think now with the increased use of cable modems (I just got mine,
it's so nice) there will be increased interest in Debian by
first-timers.  CDs aren't the only way to install now.  APT package
handling is one of the best technical features of Debian.

My point is, while Debian hasn't traditionally focused on more
experienced Linux users, don't discount random surfers.

>   * Linux users, merely heard about Debian

This is likely the most appropriate category of users to target.  See my
design goal comment below

>   * Linux users who want to install Debian
>   * Debian users

* Debian downloaders, mirrors (ftp, web)

>   * Debian developers (and wannabees)




OK, here's more work proposed but I am ready to help.  Has
anyone looked at the /var/log/apache/access.log(s) for
www.debian.org?  Are they available for anyone else to look at?

We are redesigning a site.  What's one of the first things that
we should keep in mind?  Current usage.  Path analysis.  Most
common paths taken.  # of page views per page.

How many international page views are there compared to english
web page views?

Then we get to the error.log.  What pages are most requested
that are missing?  Should dummy or redirect pages be added?  Can
we create a custom 404 error page?





I like the set of user groups outlined above, but I don't know
if they are accurate.  They seem right to me (I suggested one
addition) but I have no way of knowing.  Are there other ways to
find out?

access.log?

A survey?

posting a notice to debian weekly news that we are discussing
this and to invite participation -on this list-.



> Now, each of these needs attention, if we intend to keep them on the web
> pages. Also, we'd want to convert group 2 to group 3, and group 3 to group
> 4. :)

Yes, if this is a stated design goal we will have much more success in
achieving it!

> For each respective category, I think we need to provide the following:
> 
>   * general information about Debian, quick and dirty
>   * extended general information about Debian
>   * information on getting Debian, and some information on using Debian
>   * everything about using Debian
>   * everything
> 
> I think we should remove the blue box, and make four to five smallish boxes
> (paragraph groups) for each category of users.

I feel something like the present Blue box function (if not on the front
page) should be moved to the Site Map page where it could still provide
alot of value.  As I read your suggestion, I assume you are proposing
blue boxes, roughly one for each category of users.

Do you think we should keep the current red, white and blue navigation
bar?  Oops, getting off topic, that's for the next thread about design.

So your user groups are surfers, experienced Linux users, installers,
users and developers.

> The opening lines we have now
> can stay in the first one. The second one should have links to the stuff in
> intro/about (we should separate that one into a few pieces) and a few other
> things. The fourth should have links to the stuff that can be downloaded and
> the installation docs. The fifth is a bitch :) because it will have t

Deliberate web site reorganization

[Jeff Albro]

I'm glad to see this being discussed, as I agree that the home page and
the overall menu structure can certainly be improved.  I think the
proposed RFC design has a bunch of good points, but, when you design (or
redesign) something, you need to put the cart before the horse.  Are there
basic guidelines you can follow?  What are the design goals?  How are
things working now?

Specifically:

If you take a look at the server logs, you can see where people went from
the main page. (grep for home page as referring link)  You can tell how
people are using it now.  I suspect you won't find people clicking on the
"Debian International" link because it is not clear what it means.  Maybe
you'll find that 90% go straight to the installation.  Do more people read
the DWN than the event centered news releases?  Are more than 5% of people
going to the mirrors?  Are they worth having?  Let's find out!

A basic guideline:  Make links based on action.  "Install Debian"
"Support Debian"  Use verbs.  Let people take direct action.  Instead of a
link to the security mailing list, let people input their e-mail address.

Can we agree that the MAIN purpose of a homepage is to jump off to further
information?  I think the news and secruity updates belong on the page,
but need to remain secondary priorities.

Should there be a scheme for the menu structure?  I think so.  If there is
a reliable method to the hierarchy users will learn it and use it to
navigate.  For instance, should the submenus listed on the homepage be
linked from the main menu?  I.E.  Should the user find a link to
/docs/books if they follow the bigger link to /docs?  Right now they
don't.  I'm not sure which is the better way, but I think we need to be
consistent.

Should different parts of the website look different?  Clearly all parts
of Debian need to look like they are part of Debian, but there could be
subtle clues.  (A CD behind the swirl on cds.debian.org, etc)

I guess what I am asking for is DELIBERATE redesign.  To me, this means:

* A fact based analysis of where we are now.

* A set of design guidelines (maybe a small web policy manual?)

* Prototype sites put up for review (with a specific comment period as
many volunteers have different schedules, and we should make sure people
get a fair chance to air their concerns.)

* A final decision process (voting, benevolent dictator, etc..)

Of course all this hinges on people willing to do the work.  I am willing
to give opinions, do research, and create prototypes.

Thanks!

-Jeff

---
Jeff Albro  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Customer Interaction Consultant  Boston, MA

Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[Josip Rodin]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 04:24:16PM -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:
> Josip, it looks like we are thinking more along the same lines than I
> thought from reading your response. Guess we just needed to get
> oriented.

Looks like it. I suppose I took you too literally when you said you'll just
leave the _links_...

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[James A. Treacy]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 10:04:49PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> 
> What I'm proposing is to make a paragraph for "Getting Debian" on the front
> page, instead of just a link.
> 
I'd prefer to leave discusssions for the details of the main page until
we decide the overall layout.

[snip]
> 
> Yes, I said above that it should be split up :)
> 
It was just an example. We can agree you know. :)


> Euh, I didn't say /devel/ should be changed, I meant the front page.
> 
Good.

Josip, it looks like we are thinking more along the same lines than I
thought from reading your response. Guess we just needed to get
oriented.

> > > > Where should the following go:
> > > >   awards page
> > > >   related links (about debian page? documentation page?)
> > > >   debian-jr project is currently in devel corner
> > > 
> > > Miscellaneous? Dunno about debian-jr, though.
> > 
> > Why would you click on it unless you knew what you wanted is in there.
> > Things should be EASY to find. I want the miscellaneous page to go
> > away forever.
> 
> Hm, point. Then again, some things are simply not sortable into the
> categories we have.
> 
This will need more discussion. Any other ideas?

-- 
James (Jay) Treacy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

debian-www updates [charles@bellcore.net: Re: postfix DoS]

[Matt Zimmerman]

Can we arrange things so that security advisories can be published to the
website at the same time that they are released?  They make it to LWN before
they are up on debian.org.

-- 
 - mdz
--- Begin Message ---
Not Found
The requested URL /security/2001/dsa-093 was not found on this server.

On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Matt Zimmerman wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 09:06:49PM -0600, Charles Henderson wrote:
>
> >   Has Debian released a version of postfix for potato patched to fix the
> > recent denial of service problem? (http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/3544)
>
> Yes:
>
> http://www.debian.org/security/2001/dsa-093
>
> --
>  - mdz
>
--- End Message ---

Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[James A. Treacy]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:36:44PM -0800, Grant Bowman wrote:
> Very nice proposal James, thanks for putting this together.  I can see
> some thought went into this.  This is a good, thorough "update" to what
> we have presently with some realignment.  I like it.  I hope more 
> qualified volunteers step up to help out with this.
> 
Thanks. I get paranoid when people are too nice. More criticism. :)

> > Links:
> >   About Debian
> >   News
> >   Getting Debian
> 
> How about a Users' Corner?  This may include "Getting Debian"
> "Documentation/Support" a second link to "Security", a link to
> qa.debian.org if it's still not under the same hierarchy.
> 
Webmaster has received enough mail from people who couldn't spend 15
seconds finding the download link on the existing page. There definitely
needs to be a link of this sort on the page.

> >   Developers' Corner
> >   International Pages
> 
> Why is this separated since the translation links for each page are at
> the bottom of each page?  Can't we move the International Pages link to
> the bottom of each page?  I don't use the translations so I don't know
> what would be easiest for those users.  I suspect that when users choose
> their language from the bottom, having something that links to a
> description of the International Pages near there would be more
> beneficial when they need it.
> 
The translators bugged us for quite a while before we gave in and gave
them their own pages. The idea as presented was that they needed an area
to present information only of interest to people speaking that
language. I believe some of them are also used to encourage people to
improve support of that language. I can't really say for sure since I
haven't looked at the pages. Basically, my feeling is if it helps make
debian better and more popular then go right ahead.

> >   Documentation/Support Pages
> 
> News could be combined with Documentation/Support.  Maybe call it Info
> Corner?
> 
IMO, News is important enough and there is enough of it that it should have
it's own page.

> >   Security
> >   Supported Architectures
> >   Supporting Debian
> 
> This could be under the "About Debian" or perhaps "Users' Corner".
> 
If you look at the items I listed as being on this page, I really meant
it as a way users could help support debian. So that's what I called it.

> >   Site Map
> >   Search
> > 
> > Anything else on the main page? Justify your suggestion.
> 
> The awards icons along the bottom with a link to the Awards page would
> be nice.  If we have awards, everyone needs to know.  There's a stigma
> that Debian is hard to use, the awards help to counteract this through
> peer validation of the distribution.
>  
I'm not a big fan of award logos. Most are just trying to gain recognition
for the giver of the award. We definitely need to make the awards link
more obvious though. Perhaps that could be off the main page (ugh, the
main page link count is going up already!).

> > ABOUT DEBIAN PAGE (intro/)
> >   introduction
> >   history
> >   links to discussion of free software
> >   social contract
> >   contact information
> 
> Debian FAQ (/doc/FAQ/)
> 
I have mixed feelings about the FAQ. It's an impressive document, but it
tries to do so much. I'm not sure I'd want to point new users at it.
Just my opinion though.

> > GETTING DEBIAN PAGE (/distrib/)
> >   installation instructions
> >   package pages
> >   CD vendors
> >   ftp mirrors
> >   pre-installed
> > Should we make a new directory for this information? Some people don't
> > like distrib/ but is it worth breaking links?
> 
> I think the content of the pages is more important, and it's best to try
> not to break links if possible.
> 
> A custom 404 error page would be really helpful, perhaps with some links
> to upward path items, the site map page, the front page.
> 
I'm not a fan of 404 error pages. If a link no longer works the
browser can tell the person. My real beef is that they confuse link
checkers.

> > SUPPORT (/support)
> > Should this be called 'Getting Help'?
> >   Mailing lists (also linked from main page?)
> >   Reaching Package Maintainers
> >   The Bug Tracking System (also linked from main page?)
> >   Consultants
> >   On-line Real Time Help Using IRC
> > 
> > DOCUMENTATION (/doc/)
> > Is documentation an ok name?
> > 
> > There is a lot of documentation. Way too much for a single page. Thus, I'm
> > proposing this page simply give links to other pages that provide 
> > documentation
> > on specific topics (the current sitemap has the right idea):
> 
> /usr/share/doc/ description, dwww
> 
> How to use man & info pages.  Sounds redundant to remind people, but
> this could be a checklist for everyone to point to and say Read The Fine
> Manual.
> 
This sounds like information that should be part of a users manual, not
on the web page.

> >   Installation Instructions (/releases)
> >  (can't hurt to be linked from every place a luser goes)
> >   User Manuals (/doc/user-manuals)
> >   Admin

Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[Josip Rodin]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 03:45:13PM -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:
> > Now, each of these needs attention, if we intend to keep them on the web
> > pages. Also, we'd want to convert group 2 to group 3, and group 3 to group
> > 4. :)
> 
> That sounds a bit like we are proselytizing. Perhaps we are, but I
> prefer to be more subtle about it. You can't beat giving the users
> a good experience to gain new users.

Well, the pages are there to attract users, and Debian is probably the
distribution with the highest percentage of users that didn't start off
with it. Continuing this trend has many benefits for us.

> One of the primary goals in pushing this is to make it easier for people to
> find the information they need. Currently, there is:
>   Too much information on the main page
>   Some of the information in other pages is not well organized.

Agreed.

> Someone looking to install Debian:
>   Proposal
>   Sees an obvious link called 'Getting Debian' and goes to that page
>   Sees links 'installation instructions', 'installing off the net',
>   'buying CDs' and 'downloading CD images' (this is a new addition.
>   After the latest thread on this I checked out cdimage.d.o and read
>   up on the uber cool pseudo-image-kit).
> 
>   Currently
>   The existing Distribution page is awful. The current links on the
>   main page are too terse for newbies. With them on their own page
>   they can be accompanied by a line of explainion.

What I'm proposing is to make a paragraph for "Getting Debian" on the front
page, instead of just a link.

> Someone who stumbles on our page and wonders what this debian thing is:
>   Proposal
>   Sees an obvious link called 'About Debian' which has a nuber of topics
>   well laid out. The About page has only 1 paragraph of explanatory
>   material and links which expand on the ideas. They can read as much
>   or as little as they choose.
> 
>   Currently
>   Ah, there is a nice link called 'About'.
>   Ugh. It is 8 screenfulls long (quickly runs away).

Yes, I said above that it should be split up :)

>   After reading through two screenfulls of text and links finally sees
>   a bunch of security advisories on the third screen. Oh wait, after
>   reading the blue box again, I notice a link under Support to the
>   security page .

Yeah, that's one of the things I hate about the blue box, it duplicates some
of the things from the rest of the page, and it mentions some things that
the rest of the page doesn't speak of. It's suboptimal.

> > Thinking about design, we could probably apply the same theme we have in
> > /devel/, or something along those lines.
> > 
> I wouldn't bother changing /devel/. Debian developers are interested
> only in information and that page presents most everything. It is too
> long though, so if any of the items group naturally, another subdir or
> two would be great.

Euh, I didn't say /devel/ should be changed, I meant the front page.

> > At the bottom, there should be a links to the site map and the search box,
> > along with the rest of the footer stuff.
> > 
> site map and search are the last two items listed in the proposal.

Yes, I listed that for completeness :)

> > > Where should the following go:
> > >   awards page
> > >   related links (about debian page? documentation page?)
> > >   debian-jr project is currently in devel corner
> > 
> > Miscellaneous? Dunno about debian-jr, though.
> 
> Why would you click on it unless you knew what you wanted is in there.
> Things should be EASY to find. I want the miscellaneous page to go
> away forever.

Hm, point. Then again, some things are simply not sortable into the
categories we have.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[James A. Treacy]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 07:53:16PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:39:33PM -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:
> > My idea of a main page is one that let's you quickly find a subpage that
> > will get you the information you want. With that in mind, the new front
> > page will have less information than it currently has.
> > 
> > Links:
> >   About Debian
> >   News
> >   Getting Debian
> >   Developers' Corner
> >   International Pages
> >   Documentation/Support Pages
> >   Security
> >   Supported Architectures
> >   Supporting Debian
> >   Site Map
> >   Search
> 
> Looks like you would have the main page provide links the most important
> other pages. I think this would be okay, but it's ignoring the types of
> users.
> 
I strongly disagree. This is the only way to serve the different kinds
of users. :)

> I was thinking of a little bit different approach. I think the people who
> are visiting www.debian.org (and mirrors, of course :) can be divided into
> the following categories:
> 
>   * random surfers (just cruisin', or interested in installing Linux -- to
> us there is little difference due to the nature of our
> distribution)
>   * Linux users, merely heard about Debian
>   * Linux users who want to install Debian
>   * Debian users
>   * Debian developers (and wannabees)
> 
I would simplify this to newbies, people who know something about
unix/linux and developers. It is fine to break down people by the
different kinds of experience they have, but an experienced unix person
is still a newbie when it comes to installing linux. In the end we're
shooting for the same goal (make it easier to navigate the site) so
let's ignore this for now.

> Now, each of these needs attention, if we intend to keep them on the web
> pages. Also, we'd want to convert group 2 to group 3, and group 3 to group
> 4. :)
> 
That sounds a bit like we are proselytizing. Perhaps we are, but I
prefer to be more subtle about it. You can't beat giving the users
a good experience to gain new users.

> For each respective category, I think we need to provide the following:
> 
>   * general information about Debian, quick and dirty
>   * extended general information about Debian
>   * information on getting Debian, and some information on using Debian
>   * everything about using Debian
>   * everything
> 
> I think we should remove the blue box, and make four to five smallish boxes
> (paragraph groups) for each category of users. The opening lines we have now
> can stay in the first one. The second one should have links to the stuff in
> intro/about (we should separate that one into a few pieces) and a few other
> things. The fourth should have links to the stuff that can be downloaded and
> the installation docs. The fifth is a bitch :) because it will have to be
> big. The sixth can basically be a pointer to the developers' corner.
> 
One of the primary goals in pushing this is to make it easier for people to
find the information they need. Currently, there is:
  Too much information on the main page
 people looking at something new can't focus on more than 8-10 items
 on a page. We have over 40. Even the new proposal has 11 items,
 which is pushing it.
  Some of the information in other pages is not well organized.
 most of it isn't bad, but there is a lot of room for improvement as
 recent threads on debian-www show.

I prefer to look at how someone will navigate the site under different
situations. For example (for simplicity using the rfc I submitted):

Someone looking to install Debian:
  Proposal
  Sees an obvious link called 'Getting Debian' and goes to that page
  Sees links 'installation instructions', 'installing off the net',
  'buying CDs' and 'downloading CD images' (this is a new addition.
  After the latest thread on this I checked out cdimage.d.o and read
  up on the uber cool pseudo-image-kit).

  Currently
  The existing Distribution page is awful. The current links on the
  main page are too terse for newbies. With them on their own page
  they can be accompanied by a line of explainion.

Someone who stumbles on our page and wonders what this debian thing is:
  Proposal
  Sees an obvious link called 'About Debian' which has a nuber of topics
  well laid out. The About page has only 1 paragraph of explanatory
  material and links which expand on the ideas. They can read as much
  or as little as they choose.

  Currently
  Ah, there is a nice link called 'About'.
  Ugh. It is 8 screenfulls long (quickly runs away).

Someone looking for latest security advisories:
  Proposal
  Sees an obvious link to the security page.

  Current
  After reading through two screenfulls of text and links finally sees
  a bunch of security advisories on the third screen. Oh wait, after
  reading the blue box again, I notice a link under Support to the
  security page .

> Thinking about design, we could probably apply the same theme we have in
> /devel/,

Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[Grant Bowman]

Very nice proposal James, thanks for putting this together.  I can see
some thought went into this.  This is a good, thorough "update" to what
we have presently with some realignment.  I like it.  I hope more 
qualified volunteers step up to help out with this.


* James A. Treacy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [011214 11:17]:
> There have been a few discussions over the past year about reorganizing the
> Debian web site. Additionally, a few recent problems with placement of items 
> on
> the main page have pointed out that we really are in need of some changes.
> 
> This mail is a RFC on a proposed flowchart. Note the word flowchart. It is not
> the purpose of this RFC to talk about the graphic design of the pages.
> Nevertheless, all of the pages should be able to use the existing framework 
> with
> the exception of the main page, which may need to be redesigned.
> Once there is some agreement about the content of the main page, I will start 
> a
> new thread for discussion of it's design.
> 
> MAIN PAGE
> My idea of a main page is one that let's you quickly find a subpage that will
> get you the information you want. With that in mind, the new front page will
> have less information than it currently has.
> 
> Links:
>   About Debian
>   News
>   Getting Debian

How about a Users' Corner?  This may include "Getting Debian"
"Documentation/Support" a second link to "Security", a link to
qa.debian.org if it's still not under the same hierarchy.

>   Developers' Corner
>   International Pages

Why is this separated since the translation links for each page are at
the bottom of each page?  Can't we move the International Pages link to
the bottom of each page?  I don't use the translations so I don't know
what would be easiest for those users.  I suspect that when users choose
their language from the bottom, having something that links to a
description of the International Pages near there would be more
beneficial when they need it.

>   Documentation/Support Pages

News could be combined with Documentation/Support.  Maybe call it Info
Corner?

>   Security
>   Supported Architectures
>   Supporting Debian

This could be under the "About Debian" or perhaps "Users' Corner".

>   Site Map
>   Search
> 
> Anything else on the main page? Justify your suggestion.

The awards icons along the bottom with a link to the Awards page would
be nice.  If we have awards, everyone needs to know.  There's a stigma
that Debian is hard to use, the awards help to counteract this through
peer validation of the distribution.
 
> ABOUT DEBIAN PAGE (intro/)
>   introduction
>   history
>   links to discussion of free software
>   social contract
>   contact information

Debian FAQ (/doc/FAQ/)

> This needs to be fleshed out in more detail (including what goes on sub 
> pages).
> Suggestions welcome.
> Should the partners and donation info here too?

I think this fits.  These have to do with relationahips between the
identity of the Debian organization and other organizations/donors.  It
may encourage more awards and drive traffic for the awarding sites.  The
present awards seem mainly from 2000, but I still think they should go
on the front page for awhile.  Hopefully we can rotate these through as
more awards are won!

> NEWS PAGE (/News/)
>   news
>   weekly news
>   events
> 
> GETTING DEBIAN PAGE (/distrib/)
>   installation instructions
>   package pages
>   CD vendors
>   ftp mirrors
>   pre-installed
> Should we make a new directory for this information? Some people don't
> like distrib/ but is it worth breaking links?

I think the content of the pages is more important, and it's best to try
not to break links if possible.

A custom 404 error page would be really helpful, perhaps with some links
to upward path items, the site map page, the front page.

> DEVELOPERS' CORNER (/devel/)
> The current developers' pages - they are pretty good
> 
> INTERNATIONAL PAGES (/international/)
> Are users of languages other than English happy with the existing page?

Good question.

> SUPPORT (/support)
> Should this be called 'Getting Help'?
>   Mailing lists (also linked from main page?)
>   Reaching Package Maintainers
>   The Bug Tracking System (also linked from main page?)
>   Consultants
>   On-line Real Time Help Using IRC
> 
> DOCUMENTATION (/doc/)
> Is documentation an ok name?
> 
> There is a lot of documentation. Way too much for a single page. Thus, I'm
> proposing this page simply give links to other pages that provide 
> documentation
> on specific topics (the current sitemap has the right idea):

/usr/share/doc/ description, dwww

How to use man & info pages.  Sounds redundant to remind people, but
this could be a checklist for everyone to point to and say Read The Fine
Manual.

>   Installation Instructions (/releases)
>  (can't hurt to be linked from every place a luser goes)
>   User Manuals (/doc/user-manuals)
>   Administrator Manuals (/doc/admin-manuals)
>   Books on Debian (doc/books)

http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/

Pa

Re: RFC: web site reorganization

[Josip Rodin]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:39:33PM -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:
> My idea of a main page is one that let's you quickly find a subpage that
> will get you the information you want. With that in mind, the new front
> page will have less information than it currently has.
> 
> Links:
>   About Debian
>   News
>   Getting Debian
>   Developers' Corner
>   International Pages
>   Documentation/Support Pages
>   Security
>   Supported Architectures
>   Supporting Debian
>   Site Map
>   Search

Looks like you would have the main page provide links the most important
other pages. I think this would be okay, but it's ignoring the types of
users.

I was thinking of a little bit different approach. I think the people who
are visiting www.debian.org (and mirrors, of course :) can be divided into
the following categories:

  * random surfers (just cruisin', or interested in installing Linux -- to
us there is little difference due to the nature of our
distribution)
  * Linux users, merely heard about Debian
  * Linux users who want to install Debian
  * Debian users
  * Debian developers (and wannabees)

Now, each of these needs attention, if we intend to keep them on the web
pages. Also, we'd want to convert group 2 to group 3, and group 3 to group
4. :)

For each respective category, I think we need to provide the following:

  * general information about Debian, quick and dirty
  * extended general information about Debian
  * information on getting Debian, and some information on using Debian
  * everything about using Debian
  * everything

I think we should remove the blue box, and make four to five smallish boxes
(paragraph groups) for each category of users. The opening lines we have now
can stay in the first one. The second one should have links to the stuff in
intro/about (we should separate that one into a few pieces) and a few other
things. The fourth should have links to the stuff that can be downloaded and
the installation docs. The fifth is a bitch :) because it will have to be
big. The sixth can basically be a pointer to the developers' corner.

Thinking about design, we could probably apply the same theme we have in
/devel/, or something along those lines.

At the bottom, there should be a links to the site map and the search box,
along with the rest of the footer stuff.

> Where should the following go:
>   awards page
>   related links (about debian page? documentation page?)
>   debian-jr project is currently in devel corner

Miscellaneous? Dunno about debian-jr, though.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Lagging DSA....

[Josip Rodin]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:55:34PM -0200, Philipe Gaspar wrote:
> What is happening with DSA on Debian's website?! 
> The DSA-093 is lagging 2 days on website!
> The update shouldn't be commited same time, since it doesn't need much work 
> at all?!

Considering this is a volunteer organization, your tone is quite surprising.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

RFC: web site reorganization

[James A. Treacy]

There have been a few discussions over the past year about reorganizing the
Debian web site. Additionally, a few recent problems with placement of items on
the main page have pointed out that we really are in need of some changes.

This mail is a RFC on a proposed flowchart. Note the word flowchart. It is not
the purpose of this RFC to talk about the graphic design of the pages.
Nevertheless, all of the pages should be able to use the existing framework with
the exception of the main page, which may need to be redesigned.
Once there is some agreement about the content of the main page, I will start a
new thread for discussion of it's design.

MAIN PAGE
My idea of a main page is one that let's you quickly find a subpage that will
get you the information you want. With that in mind, the new front page will
have less information than it currently has.

Links:
  About Debian
  News
  Getting Debian
  Developers' Corner
  International Pages
  Documentation/Support Pages
  Security
  Supported Architectures
  Supporting Debian
  Site Map
  Search

Anything else on the main page? Justify your suggestion.


ABOUT DEBIAN PAGE (intro/)
  introduction
  history
  links to discussion of free software
  social contract
  contact information
This needs to be fleshed out in more detail (including what goes on sub pages).
Suggestions welcome.
Should the partners and donation info here too?

NEWS PAGE (/News/)
  news
  weekly news
  events

GETTING DEBIAN PAGE (/distrib/)
  installation instructions
  package pages
  CD vendors
  ftp mirrors
  pre-installed
Should we make a new directory for this information? Some people don't
like distrib/ but is it worth breaking links?

DEVELOPERS' CORNER (/devel/)
The current developers' pages - they are pretty good

INTERNATIONAL PAGES (/international/)
Are users of languages other than English happy with the existing page?

SUPPORT (/support)
Should this be called 'Getting Help'?
  Mailing lists (also linked from main page?)
  Reaching Package Maintainers
  The Bug Tracking System (also linked from main page?)
  Consultants
  On-line Real Time Help Using IRC

DOCUMENTATION (/doc/)
Is documentation an ok name?

There is a lot of documentation. Way too much for a single page. Thus, I'm
proposing this page simply give links to other pages that provide documentation
on specific topics (the current sitemap has the right idea):
  Installation Instructions (/releases)
 (can't hurt to be linked from every place a luser goes)
  User Manuals (/doc/user-manuals)
  Administrator Manuals (/doc/admin-manuals)
  Books on Debian (doc/books)
  General Linux Docs and HOWTOs (/doc/linux-docs) [new page]
  Debian FAQ (/doc/FAQ/)
  Developer Manuals (/doc/devel-manuals)
  DDP (/doc/ddp)

SECURITY (/security/)
  current security page
  link to securing debian howto should be added

SUPPORTED ARCHITECTURES (/ports/)
Suggestions for improving existing page?
Suggestions for a different name?

A template should be created for the sub pages so that every one will contain
the following:
  link to installation pages
  link to special notes on installing on that arch
  information on relevant mailing lists
  status information (if not an official release)
  list of machines supported (subpage if it's long)
  relevant links
Of course, they may add other information.

SUPPORTING DEBIAN PAGE (/support/)
  where to buy Debian merchandise
  logo images
  banner images
  mirroring debian
  link to developers' corner

SITE MAP PAGE (/sitemap)
  link to existing site map

SEARCH
  link to search.d.o


Where should the following go:
  awards page
  related links (about debian page? documentation page?)
  debian-jr project is currently in devel corner

Any links missing?
-- 
James (Jay) Treacy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Lagging DSA....

[Philipe Gaspar]

What is happening with DSA on Debian's website?! 
The DSA-093 is lagging 2 days on website!
The update shouldn't be commited same time, since it doesn't need much work 
at all?!

-- 
Philipe Gaspar aka kr0n.
Unix SysAdmin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

Re: Ports disappeared from www.debian.org?

[James A. Treacy]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 03:04:23PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> 
> The PowerPC and Hurd pages look good -- they have more than just generic
> information. The Alpha and SPARC pages seem like they could be getting
> there, too.
> 
> Note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong about generic information,
> it's just that it's pointless to have a whole section just about that (think
> maintenance, multiply by the number of translations), one page would suffice
> for a list of respective port mailing lists. :/
> 
Perhaps we should come up with some guidelines for the port pages. What
I'm thinking of here is a main page that provides standard information
with a link to developer pages for that platform. Ideally there wouldn't
be any special pages in there on installing debian since that
information should be in the releases directory. Of course, life is
never ideal.

-- 
James (Jay) Treacy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Ports disappeared from www.debian.org?

[Christopher C. Chimelis]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Josip Rodin wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 06:02:31PM -0500, Christopher C. Chimelis wrote:
> > How about under either Support or Miscellaneous?  I like Support better,
> > since the port pages frequently provide information for people that are
> > thinking of installing Debian on a non-i386 architecture and, since they
> > are also usually like Hardware Compat lists, the port pages usually fall
> > under a support-like category (at least to me).
> 
> Sounds plausible...

It's a start, at least, and will get it back on the page until we can
find/make a better spot for the link to end up.

> There's an i386 port page in /ports/i386/. I'm not sure what is
> i386-specific about the rest of the pages, except for the general
> impression and packages.debian.org ;)

The page is pretty bare :-)  Seriously, though, the packages.debian.org is
more of what I was referring to.  The package contents search includes
other archs (only released archs, btw, even if "unstable" is
selected), but the package directory search still appears to be x86-only.

FYI, I'm not complaining, just wondering about a few things that this
whole thread reminded me of.

C

Re: Ports disappeared from www.debian.org?

[Josip Rodin]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 03:04:23PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> > > (Before you complain, I didn't pick that confusing term for the section
> > > name.)
> > 
> > how about if you give us some ideas of what you think might be a better
> > name?
> 
> "Getting Debian" or ""
   ~
Sorry, that should be "or something like that" :)

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Debian WWW CVS commit by danish: webwml/danish/international/l10n/data

[Kaare Olsen]

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:08:22 -0500, James A. Treacy wrote:

>> You're welcome to remove the "data" directory from danish, I can't...
>> 
>Inability to remove a directory without direct access to the repository
>is one of the annoying limitations of CVS.

Nice to know.  It seems strange to me that this feature wasn't added to
CVS when it was made possible to create directories...

>I have deleted it.

Thanks.

-- 
Regards, Kaare - 

Re: Ports disappeared from www.debian.org?

[Josip Rodin]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 06:02:31PM -0500, Christopher C. Chimelis wrote:
> How about under either Support or Miscellaneous?  I like Support better,
> since the port pages frequently provide information for people that are
> thinking of installing Debian on a non-i386 architecture and, since they
> are also usually like Hardware Compat lists, the port pages usually fall
> under a support-like category (at least to me).

Sounds plausible...

> This reminds me, what ever happened to making the Debian pages generic and
> putting i386-specific info into an i386 port page?  I remember some intent
> to do so over a year ago, but it never happened.

There's an i386 port page in /ports/i386/. I'm not sure what is
i386-specific about the rest of the pages, except for the general
impression and packages.debian.org ;)

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Re: Ports disappeared from www.debian.org?

[Josip Rodin]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 11:56:03PM -0800, Randolph Chung wrote:
> > (Before you complain, I didn't pick that confusing term for the section
> > name.)
> 
> how about if you give us some ideas of what you think might be a better
> name?

"Getting Debian" or ""

> If it doesn't fit under one of the existing headings, does it make sense
> to have an "Architecture" heading and just go ahead and list all the
> ports under that?

That would enlarge the blue box on the front page even more... I guess we
could add it as a single heading, above Developers' Corner (since in between
the user and developer information).

> > I thought about adding it below Developers' Corner link, but some of the
> > port pages are to be used by normal users, not only developers.
> 
> doesn't sound quite right imo.

Well that is a fact -- the PowerPC pages, for example, have information
about how people should go about when installing. This is clearly not a
developer-only matter :)

> alternatively i think listing it under "About" may be appropriate too.

It's a stretch...

> > Yes, though our port pages are in general somewhat suboptimal to be
> > highlighted :| The introductory page deserves mention, of course, but not
> > pages that have a "News" section from 1999, and those that are just generic
> > stuff. 
> 
> again, not being familiar with what the webmasters have done in the
> past, can you give us some ideas of what would bring the pages up to par
> with what you consider "optimal"? I wouldn't mind spending some time to
> help get these into better shape if that's what is needed.

The PowerPC and Hurd pages look good -- they have more than just generic
information. The Alpha and SPARC pages seem like they could be getting
there, too.

Note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong about generic information,
it's just that it's pointless to have a whole section just about that (think
maintenance, multiply by the number of translations), one page would suffice
for a list of respective port mailing lists. :/

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.

Processed: Re: Bug#123856: packages.debian.org could show packages in experimental

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Processing commands for [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

> reassign 123856 www.debian.org
Bug#123856: packages.debian.org could show packages in experimental
Bug reassigned from package `packages.debian.org' to `www.debian.org'.

> --
Stopping processing here.

Please contact me if you need assistance.

Debian bug tracking system administrator
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)

Re: qa.debian.org website status

[Colin Watson]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:29:46AM -0800, Grant Bowman wrote:
> Why aren't these pages in the debian-wml CVS with the rest of the 
> Debian WWW site?  It is due to the PHP generated charts?
> 
>   http://qa.debian.org/debcheck.php

They've always been in the qa.debian.org CVS (/cvs/qa, module wml).
Historical reasons I guess.

> Also  and  are 
> linked from qa.debian.org.  I guess I noticed this but it never really 
> registered before.

Yep, they seemed like useful links to have.

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

qa.debian.org website status

[Grant Bowman]

Why aren't these pages in the debian-wml CVS with the rest of the 
Debian WWW site?  It is due to the PHP generated charts?

http://qa.debian.org/debcheck.php

Also  and  are 
linked from qa.debian.org.  I guess I noticed this but it never really 
registered before.

-- 
-- Grant Bowman   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Ports disappeared from www.debian.org?

[Alexander Zangerl]

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:25:17 EST, "James A. Treacy" writes:
>On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 06:43:38PM -0800, Grant Bowman wrote:
>> What about Architectures?  Is this too long?
>> 
>The problem with this term is that it is generally used to denote
>different hardware and thus doesn't do justice to the port to the hurd.

then maybe 'Platforms'? this might be interpreted as a bit less
hardware-biased  than architectures...

az

-- 
+ Alexander Zangerl + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + DSA 42BD645D + (RSA 5B586291)
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.


signature.ng
Description: PGP signature

Re: Ports disappeared from www.debian.org?

[Randolph Chung]

> (Before you complain, I didn't pick that confusing term for the section
> name.)

how about if you give us some ideas of what you think might be a better
name?

If it doesn't fit under one of the existing headings, does it make sense
to have an "Architecture" heading and just go ahead and list all the
ports under that?

> I thought about adding it below Developers' Corner link, but some of the
> port pages are to be used by normal users, not only developers.

doesn't sound quite right imo.

alternatively i think listing it under "About" may be appropriate too.
 
> Yes, though our port pages are in general somewhat suboptimal to be
> highlighted :| The introductory page deserves mention, of course, but not
> pages that have a "News" section from 1999, and those that are just generic
> stuff. 

again, not being familiar with what the webmasters have done in the
past, can you give us some ideas of what would bring the pages up to par
with what you consider "optimal"? I wouldn't mind spending some time to
help get these into better shape if that's what is needed.

randolph
-- 
Debian Developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.TauSq.org/