Re: Improvements of the website

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:18:30 +0200, Grégoire Duchêne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> Well, this point of view explains why people don't use Debian, and use
> Ubuntu.

No single distribution is suited for every single user, and we
 should not try to please everyone, since that effort is doomed to
 failure.  If some users find Ubuntu more to their taste, and find
 themselves more productive, we should rejoice. 

Ubuntu is free software. We are not enemies. We are not in
 competition. Choice, and diversity, is a strength of free software, and
 we should not be trying to to reduce that.

manoj
-- 
H. L. Mencken suffers from the hallucination that he is H. L. Mencken --
  there is no cure for a disease of that magnitude.  -- Maxwell
  Bodenheim
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Re: Improvements of the website

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:18:30 +0200, Grégoire Duchêne
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  

> Well, this point of view explains why people don't use Debian, and use
> Ubuntu.  You won't educate users, and you cannot force them to read
> security advisories. We have to keep security advisories in the
> homepage (as I did it in my drafts), but IMO we also need to
> understand that lambda-users don't care about it, this is why powerul
> tools like APT exist (and we cannot change their mind, sorry).

We should not be optimizing our web pages for only lambda users.

manoj
-- 
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people. Fields
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Re: Improvements of the website

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:10:42 +0200, Grégoire Duchêne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> 2007/4/22, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> people who do not care about security, and refuse to be educated,
>> ought to be gently steered to Windows?

> I don't believe that this type of point of view will help us, because
> users don't want to be educated because they don't see why they should
> be educated. Well, I agree that security advisories should be kept in
> the homepage, but I don't think that we should put them in the middle
> of the page, because if we do that, they will be too many informations
> in the homepage, and users won't read them at all. 

So we should remove things which are less important. Like random
 news items that are not of critical importance anyway.

manoj
-- 
Landru! Guide us! A Beta 3-oid, "The Return of the Archons", stardate
3157.4
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Inconsistency on translated pages links.

[Rolando Quiros]

Hi,

I have just registered to this mailing-list, and wanting to make my first
suggestion.
I was browsing through the site and noticed that even after i had changed to
the spanish version, every time i clicked on a link it would take to the
english version of the page. Could we improve this by either creating a
separate directory and copy/move other languages pages and links to them ?
or what if anything can we do for this ? ... for people wanting to browse
through the site in other languages should be really annoying having to wait
for a page to load, just to click on a link, to wait for it to load on the
language they want...every time for every page.

Re: Improvements of the website

[Don Armstrong]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007, Jens Seidel wrote:
> Right. I agree that security anouncements can be removed from the
> top level page. A single link such as "Security related problems are
> described on this page" would be sufficient, maybe also a reference
> to the last DSA instead of the last 10-15 ones.

Security announcements are one of the most important things that
regular viewers to the homepage would want to know about. Indeed, it's
one of the few items on the initial page which regularly changes.[1]

It may be appropriate to indicate the relative popularity of the
packages that there are security anouncements are about in some
fashion, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't care about it.

Others have said it, and I'm going to reiterate it: any changes to the
layout of the design of the website need to serve the needs of
everyone who views the website, from the users who are Debian
Developers and can commit to the website to those who are trying to
find out what this Debian thing is anyway, and everyone in between.

Changes that make the website less useful (or worse, useless) to the
people who are already using it are not going to be palatable.


Don Armstrong

1: Although, there is an argument that most of those people who know
enough to care are already subscribed to -s-a and/or get the
information via cron-apt.
-- 
For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing
continued to happen.
 -- Douglas Adams

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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translation service update

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--
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Re: Split of volatile webpages complete: please test/comment

[Luk Claes]

Jens Seidel wrote:
> Hi Luk,
> 
> On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 04:31:39PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
>> The split of the volatile webpages is comitted into the www.d.o repository.
> 
> it was hard work to move the translations but I think I finished it (at
> least for German and partially for French and Italian). Luk, please
> always commit different patches separatly. I noticed that you moved
> files from devel/debian-volatile/ to volatile/ *and* changed the content
> at the same time! This makes moving translations much harder, because
> these need to be moved *and* synchronised at the same time ... If a
> translator misses the fact that volatile/ contains moved file the
> translator could redone the work!

That's one of the reasons the split was announced on the list, so translators
could see that they don't have to start over. Only moving the translation is
not enough as the translation headers don't match anyway, though it had indeed
been better to commit after moving them and before changing them.

> Please also note that a few scripts such as mirror-volatile.sh need to
> be installed otherwise there will be broken links. Maybe it's sufficient
> to just add a new local "install::" target ...

Right, everything that should be on the website should be installed... I have
updated the Makefile accordingly.

> You also protect email addresses in volatile/team. I think this is not
> necessary as the corresponding mailto: in the source is not rewritten.
> I suggest to use clear addresses. Aren't these already available all
> over the net?

Well that's a minor issue IMHO and should be asked to the mentioned people
before changing it anyway...

Cheers

Luk


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Re: Split of volatile webpages complete: please test/comment

[Martin Zobel-Helas]

Hi Jens,

On Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 00:17:13 +0200, Jens Seidel wrote:
> Hi Luk,
> 
> You also protect email addresses in volatile/team. I think this is not
> necessary as the corresponding mailto: in the source is not rewritten.
> I suggest to use clear addresses. Aren't these already available all
> over the net?

IIRC the "user (at) domain" still dates back from when i (or frankie, or
aba) commited the first version of the team.wml page.

Greetings
Martin

-- 
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No manual entry for real-life


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Re: Split of volatile webpages complete: please test/comment

[Jens Seidel]

Hi Luk,

On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 04:31:39PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
> The split of the volatile webpages is comitted into the www.d.o repository.

it was hard work to move the translations but I think I finished it (at
least for German and partially for French and Italian). Luk, please
always commit different patches separatly. I noticed that you moved
files from devel/debian-volatile/ to volatile/ *and* changed the content
at the same time! This makes moving translations much harder, because
these need to be moved *and* synchronised at the same time ... If a
translator misses the fact that volatile/ contains moved file the
translator could redone the work!

Please also note that a few scripts such as mirror-volatile.sh need to
be installed otherwise there will be broken links. Maybe it's sufficient
to just add a new local "install::" target ...

You also protect email addresses in volatile/team. I think this is not
necessary as the corresponding mailto: in the source is not rewritten.
I suggest to use clear addresses. Aren't these already available all
over the net?

PS: I did also a few minor link changes such as
s,http://www.debian.org,$(HOME), used content negotation, ...
Please check.

Jens


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Re: Improvements of the website

[Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 11:31:00PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:
> > Translators also have good tools for handling gettext.  What's more,
> > if we used gettext for more of the site, we could use nice web
> > translation frontends more easily.  I'm not sure it's worthwhile, but
> > it seems a better option than the wiki.
> 
> If you mean with "Nice web translation frontents": "someone can enter
> translated text into a webfrontend", than it sounds pretty much like
> "wiki" for me.

No, he's talking about power-user translator tools which translators should
use. These include gbabel, ktranslator and emacs's PO-mode. All of these can
use gettext together with translation memories something *good* translators
use both to speed up their work and to provide consistent and good
translations. Something that a simple web frontend (in a wiki) cannot do.

> Maybe we have some kind of generation gap here, some people prefer to
> work with their well known all-purpose tools while others are already
> comfortable to use e.g. a browser to check their mail or edit a wiki.

Translators are comfortable with translator oriented tools. All the members
of the current translation teams use gettext extensively and there's no need
to oversimplify the process to get "novice" translators on board right now. 

There is an attempt to improve translation processes and try to simplify
editing somehow for "casual" translators. But that right now goes through
Pootle, not through a Wiki.

Regards

Javier


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Re: Improvements of the website

[Jens Seidel]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 06:10:42PM +0200, Grégoire Duchêne wrote:
> I'm sorry Jens, I was just thinking that you would probably read my
> message as an answer to the direct previous message. Please, accept my
> apologies, and let me correct this here (you can delete my previous
> message if you like) :

Don't worry, it was just a hint for you and now I'm even able to support
your opinion.

> 2007/4/22, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >people who do not care about security, and refuse to be educated,
> >ought to be gently steered to Windows?
>
> I don't believe that this type of point of view will help us, because
> users don't want to be educated because they don't see why they should

I also think that we should try to educate our users. At least in my
opinion most tasks user consider difficult or impossible are just simple
if one (we) gives sufficient tips. Most end users are probably not
willing to compile source code but if we show that it is done by a
simple dpkg-buildpackage call (and a previous apt-get call to install
dependencies) they will be surprised and very happy. Right, in most
cases it is not necessary to compile package from source but during the
try to resolve a bug or to provide a simple workaround for a problem it
might be necessary.

These people will more likely be contributors if they know such
technical stuff, even if they start with real trivial stuff such as
checking documentation for broken links, adding translations, ...

> be educated. Well, I agree that security advisories should be kept in
> the homepage, but I don't think that we should put them in the middle
> of the page, because if we do that, they will be too many informations
> in the homepage, and users won't read them at all. So, if we want to
> educate users, we'll have to create a page with explainations about
> that.

Right. I agree that security anouncements can be removed from the top
level page. A single link such as "Security related problems are
described on this page" would be sufficient, maybe also a reference to
the last DSA instead of the last 10-15 ones.
I'm the German translator of the DSAs but I personlly don't care much
about this list, also because I do not know what packages are installed
in my system (I know manually selected packages but not the
dependencies). I just trust in "aptitude upgrade" which I call every two
or three days ...

Jens


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Re: Improvements of the website

[Grégoire Duchêne]

I'm sorry Jens, I was just thinking that you would probably read my
message as an answer to the direct previous message. Please, accept my
apologies, and let me correct this here (you can delete my previous
message if you like) :


2007/4/22, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

people who do not care about security, and refuse to be educated,
ought to be gently steered to Windows?


I don't believe that this type of point of view will help us, because
users don't want to be educated because they don't see why they should
be educated. Well, I agree that security advisories should be kept in
the homepage, but I don't think that we should put them in the middle
of the page, because if we do that, they will be too many informations
in the homepage, and users won't read them at all. So, if we want to
educate users, we'll have to create a page with explainations about
that.

Best regards, and sorry for my previous mistake,

-- Grégoire.

Re: Improvements of the website

[Jens Seidel]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 11:18:30AM +0200, Grégoire Duchêne wrote:
> Well, this point of view explains why people don't use Debian, and use 
> Ubuntu.

What point of view

Please learn to properly quote messages you are referring to. I
deleted already many posts to this thread and now I wonder to what
specific mail you refer. I could check your In-Reply-To: header but do
you really assume people do this?

In the past I just ignored mails such as this one, many other people did
probably the same ...

PS: Do not quote a full mail without need. Concentrate on the most
important stuff such as I did in this mail ...

Jens


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Re: Number of packages on front page

[Jens Seidel]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 03:16:20AM +0200, Eugeniy Meshcheryakov wrote:
> Frontpage of the web site now contains "... it comes with over 18733
> packages ...". That value used to be rounded IIRC, so it was easier to

In the last time I always wondered whether this refers to binary or
source packages. I know I could now parse "Packages" files and check but ...

Jens


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Split of volatile webpages complete: please test/comment

[Luk Claes]

Hi

The split of the volatile webpages is comitted into the www.d.o repository.

Please test if everything is working correctly and don't be afraid to send
comments to the appropriate list or in private.

Cheers

Luk


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Re: Improvements of the website

[Grégoire Duchêne]

Well, this point of view explains why people don't use Debian, and use Ubuntu.

You won't educate users, and you cannot force them to read security
advisories. We have to keep security advisories in the homepage (as I
did it in my drafts), but IMO we also need to understand that
lambda-users don't care about it, this is why powerul tools like APT
exist (and we cannot change their mind, sorry).

Regards,

-- Grégoire.