RE: [Declude.JunkMail] CommTouch, etc
Here are my observations/thoughts/conclusions/3 1/2 cents: (When I say Declude, I am talking about the company as a whole.) 1. David Barker is in the position of being in the middle of all of this. As such, nothing should be directed at David directly personally. He is doing the best he can with what he is given to work with. He is also human and subject to the same emotions we are. As such, he is not perfect and has made mistakes, some of which he would rather not admit to, but then again I have boxes full of those. David believes in Declude and us and wants us to succeed with Declude as well. He may not agree with decisions made by others for which he has to follow, but that is part of the job. (David, listening to the sound track from Iron Eagle on loud while taking a power nap does wonders for clearing the mind.) 2. Declude has made a number of mistakes since the change of ownership from Scott. Some of those are/were rather large. Some have been admitted to and others have been swept under the carpet. This has made many of us, including many of us power users, short fused when it comes to problems with Declude. This is to be understood and expected, but not necessarily right. There are those at Declude that are truly trying to clean that up, but for sure it is not easy. There are forces at Declude pushing for new avenues of revenue by introducing new features and products. While every business has a right to do this, how it is done and how it is perceived that it is done can mean a big difference on how the company is viewed by it customers, and prospective customers. 3. For the last couple of weeks or so, a carrot has been hung in front of us, or at least some of us that saw it. This was a new included test that was to help on identifying spam and viruses. That carrot was ZEROHOUR/CommTouch. Now, it has been introduced officially and low and behold most of us can not legally use it. Oh, but we can actually use it as part of a new product which is a Declude Gateway product. Well, talk about a bait and switch! I am very upset over this. There was mention of licensing restrictions by CommTouch and such and David was able to get them to allow us service providers to use albeit through a different means. I am sorry, but if details of how it was going to work including final negotiations were not finalized until very recently, nothing, not one word, should have been said about this until such agreements and licensing terms were finalized between Declude and CommTouch. As it is, this has left a big awful taste in my mouth, and frankly has not placed much confidence in what CommTouch has to offer us. That is not good business, nor does it foster good relationships. 4. As I had discussed with Barry, what over a year ago now, the possibility for some one such as myself to use a Declude Gateway product was time sensitive, in that the ever changing war on spam and viruses was necessitating changes in my configuration in the present time. In other words, I have already spent time and money on gateways to my Imail server as I could not wait for the anticipated time for the Declude Gateway product. So now, as a service provider the only way I could utilize ZEROHOUR if I wanted to is in a Gateway product which now I am not interested in purchasing. Others may be interested, but I would have to think most of us have already made some adjustments to our configuration in response to changes in the war on spam and viruses in the last year. In other words, the Declude Gateway product, which is not even officially out yet, is a late comer and is going to be playing catch-up in terms of install base. So, it remains to be seen as to how many service providers will consider purchasing the Declude Gateway product, irregardless of ZEROHOUR. 5. On the subject of licensing based upon revenue sharing, it will not work. Period! Some have tried to argue that if you can not make a profit on offering e-mail, then do not do it. Well, they do not understand. In this day and age, thanks to all the fly-by-night and el-cheapo-servicio-providio and the Mickey D's of hosting spam and virus filtering is not only necessitated by the onslaught of such trash but by the expectations of users and companies that it is automatically part of e-mail. Yes, there are those out there that still have morals and values and understand that quality service not only costs money but deserves to be paid, but in today's culture of me me me they are becoming fewer and further between. Sorry Declude, but you can not squeeze water out of a sponge that is just damp without putting tears or rips in it. (Go ahead, go home and try it.) Besides, if that is what CommTouch is insisting on, then CommTouch can go away, and don't let the door KEEK ya in the butt on the way out. So Declude, stop holding a carrot in front of us and concentrate on fixing bugs. Hey, we are human too. Concentrate on fixing one bug. Let us power users try it and report back. Then release
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, 2:01:41 PM, R. Scott Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Contrary to your comments on the use of this forum, it has always RSP been for all things Declude when Scott was the sole player he never complained about the conversation RSP threads. Positive or negative. I think you could complain if say we were talking about phone systems. RSP On the other hand, I would be saying Hey, wait a minute here... :) Yes you would, but you never failed to listen and to soak in the comments from your customers and respond to them. You stood your ground tactfully when appropriate, but I can't remember when you ever devalued comments from the customer base as 'negative' nor suggest that follow-up posts about a topic you introduced to the list were inappropriate. RSP I would explain that Commtouch should indeed be treated as an addon to RSP Declude, not part of the base package (since it requires a huge amount RSP of manpower in the background). I would then explain that while the RSP revenue share plan may not seem ideal to everyone, people who don't find RSP the revenue share plan acceptable can either [1] continue using Declude RSP as they have with no extra cost, or [2] if they want to add real-time RSP scanning, they can go with an alternative like Message Sniffer. RSP It's encouraging that customers see this as a gotta have it addon, but RSP it is important to recognize that it should still be treated as an addon. I don't think there is an issue with understanding that Commtouch is an optional add-on, just the same as was Declude Virus and Declude Junkmail. I also don't think that the majority of customers consider it as a gotta have it, either, much the same as we didn't think Hijack was to die for. A close read of the many recent posts will disclose that the core issues are much more fundamental. There was a time when I thought that much of the criticism of Declude was exemplary of impatience and youth. I verbalize that to Barry and did the same in an e-mail message to David. However, at this juncture, enough time has passed for the new regime to be up to speed and in-touch with its customer base. Unfortunately, current performance doesn't make a dent in the performance when Scott Perry was running the firm, and that was with more limited resources, to boot. There always comes a time when people say enough is enough and if I were running Declude and saw all of these 'negative' posts, frankly, I'd be worried and get real busy listening, understanding and fixing what's broken. Moreover, I'd much rather deal with a customer who was willing to tell me what was broken and give me a chance to fix it rather than dealing with the silent customer who just went away. Thanks, Don Brown - Dallas, Texas USA Internet Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.inetconcepts.net (972) 788-2364Fax: (972) 788-5049 --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
Nick, With regards to outstanding bugs I have a list which we are working on, and as you know I have committed to get these fixed as well as add new functionality to Declude. When we did our tests against Message Sniffer we found that CT performed at the very least comparable if not better than Message Sniffer. We have given customers who cannot afford the additional cost of Message Sniffer an alternative option at a cheaper price. I don't understand why this is a problem. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of Nick Hayer Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:47 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc David, You have asked for some constructive feedback here regarding this new offering - I will not ask for a show of hands here :) but I bet a lot of folks are rolling their eyes simply because of the core Declude product and its outstanding bugs., inability to release a stable product, service contracts that cost $$ with no benefit, etal cloud the issue so much. I think once Declude gets back on track and provides what is promised new offerings will be generally better accepted within the community. Your participation within this list now is great - hopefully Declude JunkMail will get fixed an be improved spam tool. As for Commtouch - I am quite skeptical of it being any where near as good as you allude to. Competition is tough here especially from MessageSniffer where the product is very good and the support is even better... -Nick --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
David Barker wrote: I don't understand why this is a problem. That in fact IS the problem, isn't it? :) Matt --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
Ouch' let keep it in context. We have added an option that is comparable to Message Sniffer at 1/2 the price of Message Sniffer and I don't get it. ;) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:18 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc David Barker wrote: I don't understand why this is a problem. That in fact IS the problem, isn't it? :) Matt --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
David, This is in context. Really. You mention that it is 1/2 the price of Message Sniffer...but not for service providers. Under any revenue share that I could contemplate you using, it would no doubt be many times more expensive, not to mention the fact (which John pointed out), that it would be impossible to figure out what one's revenues were for this one piece of a broader service offering, and I should have to need an accountant to figure out what I pay for a plug-in. The people that can purchase CommTouch for $195 are mostly not complaining except for two things; 1) they are worried about this abnormal approach to the market and how it reflects on the prospects of Declude going forward, and 2) they want bug fixes and free and obvious advancements before they get ones that they have to pay extra for. I hope that makes sense. It's painfully obvious to me and some others that I know. Matt David Barker wrote: Ouch' let keep it in context. We have added an option that is comparable to Message Sniffer at 1/2 the price of Message Sniffer and I don't get it. ;) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:18 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc David Barker wrote: I don't understand why this is a problem. That in fact IS the problem, isn't it? :) Matt --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
I do not think it is a problem. I like the additional option. But if I was a new customer the subscription model would be out of our price range. I would like to see a trial of the CT add-in. We have a habit of not buying software without firsthand experience (trial version). Contrary to your comments on the use of this forum, it has always been for all things Declude when Scott was the sole player he never complained about the conversation threads. Positive or negative. I think you could complain if say we were talking about phone systems. Kevin Bilbee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Barker Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:00 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc Nick, With regards to outstanding bugs I have a list which we are working on, and as you know I have committed to get these fixed as well as add new functionality to Declude. When we did our tests against Message Sniffer we found that CT performed at the very least comparable if not better than Message Sniffer. We have given customers who cannot afford the additional cost of Message Sniffer an alternative option at a cheaper price. I don't understand why this is a problem. David B www.declude.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of Nick Hayer Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:47 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc David, You have asked for some constructive feedback here regarding this new offering - I will not ask for a show of hands here :) but I bet a lot of folks are rolling their eyes simply because of the core Declude product and its outstanding bugs., inability to release a stable product, service contracts that cost $$ with no benefit, etal cloud the issue so much. I think once Declude gets back on track and provides what is promised new offerings will be generally better accepted within the community. Your participation within this list now is great - hopefully Declude JunkMail will get fixed an be improved spam tool. As for Commtouch - I am quite skeptical of it being any where near as good as you allude to. Competition is tough here especially from MessageSniffer where the product is very good and the support is even better... -Nick --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
I would have to agree with Matt’s last few comments The people that can purchase CommTouch for $195 are mostly not complaining except for two things; 1) they are worried about this abnormal approach to the market and how it reflects on the prospects of Declude going forward, and 2) they want bug fixes and free and obvious advancements before they get ones that they have to pay extra for. To me Declude should be enhancing their core product like the AVG integration and possibly an integration of URI lists. Let others create the add-ons. I am worried that I pay a yearly fee and have not seen additional benefit over the past few years. Adding add-ins is great but what am I getting for my yearly maintenance? Bug fixes have been slow and features have been minimal. I say minimal because the only additional feature in the product does not help with spam. It is a virus feature, the addition of AVG. Although great, virus scanning for us is an afterthought for us. All our mail is scanned for viruses by our two gateway machines before making to the mailbox server. Also I would like to see a response to my last two emails to support! At least a hey we received your email. Kevin Bilbee From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:00 AM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc David, This is in context. Really. You mention that it is 1/2 the price of Message Sniffer...but not for service providers. Under any revenue share that I could contemplate you using, it would no doubt be many times more expensive, not to mention the fact (which John pointed out), that it would be impossible to figure out what one's revenues were for this one piece of a broader service offering, and I should have to need an accountant to figure out what I pay for a plug-in. The people that can purchase CommTouch for $195 are mostly not complaining except for two things; 1) they are worried about this abnormal approach to the market and how it reflects on the prospects of Declude going forward, and 2) they want bug fixes and free and obvious advancements before they get ones that they have to pay extra for. I hope that makes sense. It's painfully obvious to me and some others that I know. Matt David Barker wrote: Ouch' let keep it in context. We have added an option that is comparable toMessage Sniffer at 1/2 the price of Message Sniffer and I don't get it. ;)-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of MattSent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:18 PMTo: declude.junkmail@declude.comSubject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etcDavid Barker wrote: I don't understand why this is a problem. That in fact IS the problem, isn't it?:)Matt---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe,just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribeDeclude.JunkMail. The archives can be found athttp://www.mail-archive.com.---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. ---This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. Tounsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], andtype "unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail". The archives can be foundat http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
Hi David, David Barker wrote: Nick, With regards to outstanding bugs I have a list which we are working on, and as you know I have committed to get these fixed as well That you have, and your participation on this list is greatly appreciated. I was only trying to suggest that the past couple of years issues are making it a little difficult to embrace a new offering at this time- at least in my camp. Not to say I will not change my mind in the future. Regardless lets drop all this and move on - I do not want to lose my pinata! -Nick --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
Yea at this point there is no candy left I will have to get a refill. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Hayer Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:40 PM To: declude.junkmail@declude.com Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc Hi David, David Barker wrote: Nick, With regards to outstanding bugs I have a list which we are working on, and as you know I have committed to get these fixed as well That you have, and your participation on this list is greatly appreciated. I was only trying to suggest that the past couple of years issues are making it a little difficult to embrace a new offering at this time- at least in my camp. Not to say I will not change my mind in the future. Regardless lets drop all this and move on - I do not want to lose my pinata! -Nick --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
Contrary to your comments on the use of this forum, it has always been for all things Declude when Scott was the sole player he never complained about the conversation threads. Positive or negative. I think you could complain if say we were talking about phone systems. On the other hand, I would be saying Hey, wait a minute here... :) I would explain that Commtouch should indeed be treated as an addon to Declude, not part of the base package (since it requires a huge amount of manpower in the background). I would then explain that while the revenue share plan may not seem ideal to everyone, people who don't find the revenue share plan acceptable can either [1] continue using Declude as they have with no extra cost, or [2] if they want to add real-time scanning, they can go with an alternative like Message Sniffer. It's encouraging that customers see this as a gotta have it addon, but it is important to recognize that it should still be treated as an addon. -Scott --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc
Yes. Obviously, you don't get it. Wednesday, July 19, 2006, 11:35:17 AM, David Barker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DB Ouch' let keep it in context. We have added an option that is comparable to DB Message Sniffer at 1/2 the price of Message Sniffer and I don't get it. ;) DB -Original Message- DB From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt DB Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 12:18 PM DB To: declude.junkmail@declude.com DB Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Commtouch, etc DB David Barker wrote: I don't understand why this is a problem. DB That in fact IS the problem, isn't it? DB :) DB Matt DB --- DB This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, DB just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe DB Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at DB http://www.mail-archive.com. DB --- DB This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To DB unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and DB type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found DB at http://www.mail-archive.com. Don Brown - Dallas, Texas USA Internet Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.inetconcepts.net (972) 788-2364Fax: (972) 788-5049 --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
