Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
Hi, Jumping in the conversation: Le 11/06/2015 10:28, Michel RENON a écrit : [...] Wikipedia worked on a new editor [1] : any chances to use it in TDF wiki ? Dennis is currently working on its implementation to our wiki Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org GSM: +33683901545 IRC: sophi Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
2015-06-10 8:29 GMT-05:00 Pedro Rosmaninho mota.pr...@gmail.com: If other people don't contribute then their input is worth less. This jewel is pure bullshit. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
Hi JBF, On 06/11/2015 10:18 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: Hi Jay, all, Le 10/06/2015 22:39, Jay Philips a écrit : [...] Wikis are not WYSIWYG and hard to edit. You cant format a wiki similar to a document. You can use the Mediawiki extension to write your document in LibreOffice and push it to the wiki. Yes i'm aware of the mediawiki extension and its does make it easy to export to a wiki, but i doesnt make it easy to manage one (e.g. no import option). You dont have commenting and track changes. Error: with a wiki you have a complete history of each change since the creation of the document. Additionally you have a discussion page to comment. When i was referring to track changes and commenting, i'm referring to how it is implemented in a word processor. Yes wikis provide history of edits, but that is not track changes, where you have an easy option to accept or reject individual changes. Wikis also provide a discussion page where people can comment, but that is a separate page from the wiki page and not integrated into the wiki page like how comments are. Wikis are not easy for collaboration and are more suited for individuals to make individual changes that continuously improve a page. Wikis also have a barrier of entry because edits happen in markdown which doesnt happen when you deal with a WYSIWYG word processor. Likely when the document is fully finished, it would be published to the wiki, similar to how we are doing with the HIG. And you will lost the complete history of the document. That is a very important information and it is a bad idea to rely on Google to keep the memory of the LibreOffice community. The data of the LibreOffice project must be stored on TDF servers not elsewhere. The working in progress documents are project data and must be stored on TDF servers. I'm writing a document on Google Docs that i previously would write on my computer, but writing it locally means that it could get lost and its difficult to share and collaborate on. The history of the document isnt important as its my personal thoughts and research on how impress can be improved and i'm looking for comments from others who may disagree with my thoughts or have suggestions of their own that they'd want to include it in the document. My time is finite and i used Google Docs as it is a simple tool for the type of document i want to create and collaborate on. I have provided you and others with a means of reading and commenting on the document without dealing with Google services and hope that you will utilize it. Best regards. JBF Jay -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
On 06/10/2015 11:18 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: Hi Jay, all, Le 10/06/2015 22:39, Jay Philips a écrit : [...] Wikis are not WYSIWYG and hard to edit. You cant format a wiki similar to a document. You can use the Mediawiki extension to write your document in LibreOffice and push it to the wiki. You dont have commenting and track changes. Error: with a wiki you have a complete history of each change since the creation of the document. Additionally you have a discussion page to comment. Likely when the document is fully finished, it would be published to the wiki, similar to how we are doing with the HIG. And you will lost the complete history of the document. That is a very important information and it is a bad idea to rely on Google to keep the memory of the LibreOffice community. The data of the LibreOffice project must be stored on TDF servers not elsewhere. The working in progress documents are project data and must be stored on TDF servers. While I fully respect your opinion - this last statement is just not correct. We don't use words like must in the project when referring to how other people accomplish their work. The doers get to decide, Jay has been doing a *lot* of work, he has found a workflow that works for him, and no one is going to dictate that he change it. That being said, he's been incredibly accommodating and has shared the document through email so that others can download it, comment on it, and get their feedback incorporate, all without affecting your (and others) phobia of google products. So I'll respectfully say, there is no must - there seems to be a perfectly acceptable compromise that Jay found. Instead of everyone wasting their time arguing over what tool we use, maybe just (suggestion) download the doc that he shared (that is on the wiki), do your edits, and share it back on the mailing list. The other alternative is that you or one of the other google haters (which is fine...), take the document that he shared through email, you create a wiki, and you guys can edit it on the wiki, then Jay can incorporate those change in his google docagain, the doers can decide. Best, Joel -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781
Hi, On 10/06/2015 13:41, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote: I guess it is controversial because there's a hostility of some LO users to allow direct formatting of the document instead of resorting to Styles. Therefore, some people consider that direct formatting should be hidden? It is also an accessibility issue. If you make text bold and big instead of using a proper heading style, it is much harder for software (e.g. assistive technologies such as screenreaders, but also software that converts word processing files to DAISY books) to figure out that something is a heading. In fact, this category of software relies on correct styles to figure out what kind of structure is being used. This is why people have created accessible authoring guidelines such as these http://adod.idrc.ocad.ca/oowriter (I contributed to these guidelines) and an accessibility checker such as AccessODF http://accessodf.sourceforge.net/ (sadly no longer compatible since the introduction of the sidepanel from Lotus Symphony). Similar issues exist in web content, which is why we have guidelines such as WCAG http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ (also an ISO standard) and WAI-ARIA http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/. However, many users do prefer to use direct formatting and competing Office suites provide easy access to direct formatting. I don't know why developers consider this to be a wrong approach? Making the access to direct formatting more difficult would just draw people away from LO to closed source office suites. And removing direct formatting just to make people more aware of Styles Most people don't know what direct formatting (as opposed to the use of proper styles) is, so the preferred approach should be to make the use of proper styles as easy and intuitive as possible. Best regards, Christophe wow. Is there a more heavy handed top-down approach from developers to force users to do things as they want to? Christ. If you want to make Styles more used than redesign the Sidebar for Styles and Formatting into something more intuitive. The way as it is presented now is completely unintuitive compared with the Properties tab where you clearly know what pressing the Bold button will do for example. If you want users to use Styles then strongly improve the UX of the Sidebar pane, allow for easy visualization of different styles and easy change of Style of each component. On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Jay Philips ypha...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Sophie, On 06/07/2015 11:22 PM, Sophie wrote: The promise, at the time, was to re-start the survey to obtain more accurate statistics (I cannot remember the discussion word by word as too much time and too many things have gone by). I suppose that some objections coming from Sophie reflect those objections from the community. Yes, I'm on my way to ask the FR community to react on that, mostly those in real contact with users, doing migrations and training. Not because we want to rely only on users feedback but also on the robustness of our document roundtrip and exchanges, and for that, we know that styles are the common sense to treat them. Look forward to the feedback. Unfortunately, the survey was never re-started because of the Oracle acquisition and the subsequent turmoil inside StarDivision and inside the community. That would be a great thing to do a survey now that people are more aware of the necessity to communicate in different environments. Jay, I'll answer your details tomorrow, but about direct formatting, that was one of the most controversial thing to add it to the sidebar so prominently. Most of the training material available remove the formating toolbar to make people aware of styles... Dont see why it would be controversial when all other office suites that utilize sidebars (iWork, Calligra) have direct formatting in the sidebar. The sad thing is that paragraph and character styles dropdown lists arent present in the sidebar's properties tab. Jay -- Christophe Strobbe Akademischer Mitarbeiter Responsive Media Experience Research Group (REMEX) Hochschule der Medien Nobelstraße 10 70569 Stuttgart Tel. +49 711 8923 2749 “It is possible to make a living making free software for freedom instead of closed-source proprietary malware for cops.” Jacob Appelbaum, http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/12/28/jacob-appelbaum-on-resisting-the-surveillance-state/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781
Great reply. Thank you for the elaborate information. On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Christophe Strobbe stro...@hdm-stuttgart.de wrote: Hi, On 10/06/2015 13:41, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote: I guess it is controversial because there's a hostility of some LO users to allow direct formatting of the document instead of resorting to Styles. Therefore, some people consider that direct formatting should be hidden? It is also an accessibility issue. If you make text bold and big instead of using a proper heading style, it is much harder for software (e.g. assistive technologies such as screenreaders, but also software that converts word processing files to DAISY books) to figure out that something is a heading. In fact, this category of software relies on correct styles to figure out what kind of structure is being used. This is why people have created accessible authoring guidelines such as these http://adod.idrc.ocad.ca/oowriter (I contributed to these guidelines) and an accessibility checker such as AccessODF http://accessodf.sourceforge.net/ (sadly no longer compatible since the introduction of the sidepanel from Lotus Symphony). Similar issues exist in web content, which is why we have guidelines such as WCAG http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ (also an ISO standard) and WAI-ARIA http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/. However, many users do prefer to use direct formatting and competing Office suites provide easy access to direct formatting. I don't know why developers consider this to be a wrong approach? Making the access to direct formatting more difficult would just draw people away from LO to closed source office suites. And removing direct formatting just to make people more aware of Styles Most people don't know what direct formatting (as opposed to the use of proper styles) is, so the preferred approach should be to make the use of proper styles as easy and intuitive as possible. Best regards, Christophe wow. Is there a more heavy handed top-down approach from developers to force users to do things as they want to? Christ. If you want to make Styles more used than redesign the Sidebar for Styles and Formatting into something more intuitive. The way as it is presented now is completely unintuitive compared with the Properties tab where you clearly know what pressing the Bold button will do for example. If you want users to use Styles then strongly improve the UX of the Sidebar pane, allow for easy visualization of different styles and easy change of Style of each component. On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Jay Philips ypha...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Sophie, On 06/07/2015 11:22 PM, Sophie wrote: The promise, at the time, was to re-start the survey to obtain more accurate statistics (I cannot remember the discussion word by word as too much time and too many things have gone by). I suppose that some objections coming from Sophie reflect those objections from the community. Yes, I'm on my way to ask the FR community to react on that, mostly those in real contact with users, doing migrations and training. Not because we want to rely only on users feedback but also on the robustness of our document roundtrip and exchanges, and for that, we know that styles are the common sense to treat them. Look forward to the feedback. Unfortunately, the survey was never re-started because of the Oracle acquisition and the subsequent turmoil inside StarDivision and inside the community. That would be a great thing to do a survey now that people are more aware of the necessity to communicate in different environments. Jay, I'll answer your details tomorrow, but about direct formatting, that was one of the most controversial thing to add it to the sidebar so prominently. Most of the training material available remove the formating toolbar to make people aware of styles... Dont see why it would be controversial when all other office suites that utilize sidebars (iWork, Calligra) have direct formatting in the sidebar. The sad thing is that paragraph and character styles dropdown lists arent present in the sidebar's properties tab. Jay -- Christophe Strobbe Akademischer Mitarbeiter Responsive Media Experience Research Group (REMEX) Hochschule der Medien Nobelstraße 10 70569 Stuttgart Tel. +49 711 8923 2749 “It is possible to make a living making free software for freedom instead of closed-source proprietary malware for cops.” Jacob Appelbaum, http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/12/28/jacob-appelbaum-on-resisting-the-surveillance-state/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
Hi, [Please keep in mind that English is not my native language] Le 11/06/2015 16:59, Joel Madero a écrit : On 06/10/2015 11:18 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: [...] And you will lost the complete history of the document. That is a very important information and it is a bad idea to rely on Google to keep the memory of the LibreOffice community. The data of the LibreOffice project must be stored on TDF servers not elsewhere. The working in progress documents are project data and must be stored on TDF servers. While I fully respect your opinion - this last statement is just not correct. It is very surprising for me when an organization, working on editing and managing documents, does not consider its own documents, which are its memory, important enough to be kept in its own repositories. And document history is as important as the final document. For example document history will show why or if some choice not present in the final document, has been discussed and rejected during the document development. Having the document history prevents to discuss again and again the same things. [...] your (and others) phobia of google products. The problem is not only Google, it would be the same with any comparable external supplier. The important word is external, not Google. That said, the doers get to decide. Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. Disclaimer: my Internet Provider being located in France, each of our exchanges over Internet will be scanned by French spying services. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
I think the issue is more a matter of ease of use and collaboration and it is quite well known that Google Docs is great in that regard. There's the design Hangouts minutes that document all the work done, and maybe at the end of each release cycle the documents produced during that release cycle could be rounded up? I just don't think that bureaucratizing everything or trying to condition on how people are doing their work is productive... On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure jbfa...@libreoffice.org wrote: Hi, [Please keep in mind that English is not my native language] Le 11/06/2015 16:59, Joel Madero a écrit : On 06/10/2015 11:18 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: [...] And you will lost the complete history of the document. That is a very important information and it is a bad idea to rely on Google to keep the memory of the LibreOffice community. The data of the LibreOffice project must be stored on TDF servers not elsewhere. The working in progress documents are project data and must be stored on TDF servers. While I fully respect your opinion - this last statement is just not correct. It is very surprising for me when an organization, working on editing and managing documents, does not consider its own documents, which are its memory, important enough to be kept in its own repositories. And document history is as important as the final document. For example document history will show why or if some choice not present in the final document, has been discussed and rejected during the document development. Having the document history prevents to discuss again and again the same things. [...] your (and others) phobia of google products. The problem is not only Google, it would be the same with any comparable external supplier. The important word is external, not Google. That said, the doers get to decide. Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. Disclaimer: my Internet Provider being located in France, each of our exchanges over Internet will be scanned by French spying services. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Pedro Rosmaninho mota.pr...@gmail.com wrote: I think the issue is more a matter of ease of use and collaboration and it is quite well known that Google Docs is great in that regard. There's the design Hangouts minutes that document all the work done, and maybe at the end of each release cycle the documents produced during that release cycle could be rounded up? I just don't think that bureaucratizing everything or trying to condition on how people are doing their work is productive... +1 - the project prides itself on exactly this point :) Anyways, is there not a straight forward solution here? I mentioned two before. Best, Joel P.S. JBF - no need to point out English not being your primary languageyour English is 1x better than my French so you're leagues ahead of me :) -- *Joel Madero* LibreOffice QA Volunteer jmadero@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Location of Print Preview in the menu bar
Hi All, As part of the reworking of the menu bar in bug 91781, I have suggested moving Print Preview from the File menu into the View menu. Some people have stated that it is best to leave it where it is as its a print related function, while i've suggested that its more of a way to view the current document. Arguments for both opinions are included in the bug report, so please do read them. It would be good if everyone gets a chance to give their opinion about this. Regards, Jay -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
Glad that you think so since that jewel has been thrown to my face multiple times including by LO developers and even members of the design group (although not recently). On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos f...@libreoffice.org wrote: 2015-06-10 8:29 GMT-05:00 Pedro Rosmaninho mota.pr...@gmail.com: If other people don't contribute then their input is worth less. This jewel is pure bullshit. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
Pedro Rosmaninho wrote on 11-06-15 15:22: Glad that you think so since that jewel has been thrown to my face multiple times including by LO developers and even members of the design group (although not recently). If people handle your contribution less serious because you do only a little, that is wrong, IMO. On the other hand, when people work a lot for LibreOffice, they move in general faster with subjects/changes, and often have ore overview. Which makes communication hard. It's really a thing that is difficult in our type of community. Bet being aware and trying to communicate about limitations expectations, can help. Most of the times. I hope... Well ;) -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2015-06-10
* Present: Andreas, Heiko, Jay, Kendy, Philippe (just for a while) * Completed Action Items: * Pending Action Items: + [see the pad] * UI changes integrated the last week: + Calc menubar reorganized (Jay) + Default to the Breeze icon theme on OS X (Kendy) + Sifr improvements, new icons (Matthias) + Tango updates (Adolfo) + Fixed inc/dec buttons in Impress (Maxim) + Added Outline buttons to the Impress sidebar (Maxim) + Adapt the numbering popup to more than 8 items (Maxim) * #libreoffice-dev IRC channel now has ops (Jay) + topic can be updated with whatever important is necessary etc. * Sifr icon patches that need to be cherry picked for 5.0 (Jay) + https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/16115/ https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/16120/ https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/16128/ AI + will do that (Kendy) * Team members should add their info to the wiki (Jay) + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team + go ahead with the changes, Jay (Kendy) + usernames: htietze (/done), Kendy, andreas_ka, ***fill in youself*** + maybe change it more into a kind of Credits page? (Kendy) + contacts are still useful (Jay) * Start Center for 5.0 (Andreas) + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90452 + 48x48 icons + background colors should change: + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90452#c45 + https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=116355 + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/5.0_Branding#Contributions_submitted_so_far + consensus: let's go ahead with these colors AI + update the colors notify the Visual Identity group (Kendy) + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/5.0_Branding + still not decided * Hicontrast icon theme (Andreas) + IIRC it depends on the system settings (Kendy) + the ideas for Sifr was to change the color programatically (Jay) + installation size (Kendy) + not the primary problem; synchronization with the ligth theme is more concerning (Andreas) + when does it happen? (Andreas) + when we find a hacker - happy to give the code pointers... (Kendy) + but cannot promise it myself ATM :-( (Kendy) + Breeze-dark + https://github.com/NitruxSA/plasma-next-icons/tree/master/LibreOffice_Breeze + has a script to generate the dark variant + possibilities: + have it in the repo, but not build by default + build it too + kill hicontrast icon theme, and instead use breeze-dark + find somebody to code the color changing on the fly + will ask in the ESC if the non-coding possibilities are acceptable before we have the code (Kendy) * Icon Updates / Issues (Jay) + if an icon is missing, Jay can add the needed XML snippet (Andreas/Jay) + Tango (Alex/Adolfo/Jay) + Latest status of updates available here (Jay) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OErlXIDDGM7V1mOGW8oSCLuhqw5fulT1XhkTik1u2UY/edit?usp=sharing + Adolfo has pushed new icons (Jay) + Sifr (Papamatti/Jay) + Latest status of updates available here (Jay) https://docs.google.com/document/d/15ZpVaTxg7TAFYhOyQUP3mp-cVtKA1vP5uZAT38t-taA/edit?usp=sharing + Papamatti has pushed new icons (Jay) + Breeze (Andreas/Jay) + nearly finished with icons (Andreas) + Latest status of updates available here (Jay) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dpMFgmkQy4BsyRIKH97ZLPTU6NdvXIYk3Yossj6sSQM/edit?usp=sharing + Extra-Large (32x32) Icons for large resolutions + Status - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mPqD2gGsMkfVCI6ByUd2XYX1NJm26hcGjRVe6gcCSEU/edit?usp=sharing * Templates (Jay) + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Templates_for_LibreOffice_4.4 + would be good to have more! (Jay) + worked on a template with Mattias (Jay) + called 'Modern literature book' + impress template categories listed here (Making Impress A UX Princess) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ri2jznhcQmCtk3cVygEhwN7pi8FkbIVV_OvRQce_n6Y/edit#heading=h.lbg8tx7i5p99 + focus: the impress templates (Jay) + still not a good solution for translating templates :-( (Kendy) + will sync with mkt people (Jay) * Next Friday's design session (Jay) + no Friday session this week + List of possible future topics + https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XiJauFHrSmM5LsaV0AlglhfUh8D1IxAg8qistP0KAQA/edit?usp=sharing + Steve wants the sidebar configuration menu icon gone: it's useless confusing, thus user unfriendly, creates frustration and clutters the UI. https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91824 * UI Guidelines (Heiko) +
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
Joel Madero wrote on 11-06-15 16:59: The doers get to decide, Which makes no distinction between doing a lot or not so much (what still can be a lot looking to one's availability). It's all about cooperation ;) -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781
Le 10/06/2015 14:40, Cor Nouws a écrit : So the challenge - where the issues are about - is to make working with Styles more natural, visible. Hi all, [Summary: style should be promoted by better answering user needs (several -new?- features proposed), not (only) by changing the ui] Here is a list of things we could add if we want to promote styles. Explaination of my reasonning after: - change management / training but probably out of scope. However, this is the root cause, i think. When you don't say how to use a software to users, they use it the way they think is good. - We should make an enhancement in Tools - Options, it should be possible to reset the UI configuration of menu/tool/event/Sidebars to Basic, Normal, Advanced with 3 predefined configuration and ask at first launch which one to use. - we should, do all that is possible to promote meaningful styles over direct formatting. Taking into account this: when the name of the style is Bold and underline, that is not far from direct formatting style. Also, in writer, compare Addressee, Footer, Footer Left, Footer Right, Frame Contents, Header, Header Left, Header Right, and so on. There are (visually at least) all like Default style. I would do something that makes these styles different. I believe you have to visually excite your audience (in a certain limit) if you want to retain their attention. For exemple, Right formatting could be right formatted, we could use colours, tooltip on the style to better describe it. - we should have a tool / wizzard / whatever that helps you detect direct formatting and replace by existing / new styles. Kind of code style checking. Or fixing. - In writer context menus could allow to apply a style to current selection (text, paragrap, ...) - I believe that when a direct formatting is applied, a new style name could be automatically asked - It should be possible to send documents with locked (read-only) styles (I gave you a template with these styles, you cannot use other styles, you have no direct formatting, produce your part of the final document). Or: if you want a new style, it will be managed as a change request and document integrator will have two choices: accept it / replace it by an existing one. And now the origin of these features for those who still have few minutes: The software must not be developped for the developpers but for the target audience in order to answer needs. So, do we have an idea of the demographic composition of LO users ? Among users, how many are skilled in computer use and how many are users that have never been trained to good practices ? The second population will probably express its needs with a very limited vocabulary. I would say: text, new line (paragraph as advanced concept), bullets, bold, underline, italic, recover the text that I forgot to save, print. All other buttons are noise (at least at the very beginning, the more they learn, the more buttons should be displayed) If the guy is using LO at work, maybe one day, he will add titles and later images to the vocabulary. For this kind of population, I think one unique side panel is enough. You can present them a style named Bold and they will be happy. Kind of basic mode Among users, how many use LO for professional work / how many for private tasks ? The second population will be using LO to write a letter to an administration, to make a (one) slide with pictures of the last week-end activities just to print and paste in child's book. They will probably fall back in the previous small-needs category. Let's see the need of the first population (pro workers): they will be using LO for writing user manuals, answering tenders, writing letters to customers and so on. There is a (visual) quality expected for these documents especially if they are writen by several people. Now let's describe all the cases I met in this situation: - the guy (or the girl) has always used Word before and knows only direct style buttons (how many times did I see titles writen without styles, with tabs, spaces, numbers) - the guys uses Word and uses styles. But as soon as a part of a paragraph is bold, it's style + direct formatting, - the guys uses LO for first time, he used Word previously. He does not understand the (new for him) concept of Paragraph Style, Character Style, Table Style. He does not understand how to put numbers in front of titles (Chapter Numbering). Nobody proposed him at first launch to explain how to migrate ways of working from Word to LO. (kind of eLearning before / after). So, he uses few styles and lot of additional direct formatting. - the LO user. He uses styles and few direct formatting. My case: I tend to put images in writer, crop them, anchor as char, and apply Center. - the perfect user. Never met. - and finally the poor guy is charge of mixing all the contributions in a single document. He started a clean LO document, 5 styles in use. After copy / paste of all the contributions, he has
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
Hi Jay, all, Le 10/06/2015 22:39, Jay Philips a écrit : [...] Wikis are not WYSIWYG and hard to edit. You cant format a wiki similar to a document. You can use the Mediawiki extension to write your document in LibreOffice and push it to the wiki. You dont have commenting and track changes. Error: with a wiki you have a complete history of each change since the creation of the document. Additionally you have a discussion page to comment. Likely when the document is fully finished, it would be published to the wiki, similar to how we are doing with the HIG. And you will lost the complete history of the document. That is a very important information and it is a bad idea to rely on Google to keep the memory of the LibreOffice community. The data of the LibreOffice project must be stored on TDF servers not elsewhere. The working in progress documents are project data and must be stored on TDF servers. Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. Disclaimer: my Internet Provider being located in France, each of our exchanges over Internet will be scanned by French spying services. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781
Hi Sophie, On 06/10/2015 05:02 PM, Sophie wrote: Hi Jay, Le 10/06/2015 14:20, Jay Philips a écrit : Hi Sophie, So editing the data in the database makes it suitable for 'Bibliography Database' to be under Tools but editing the link to the database shouldnt be considered suitable for it to be under Tools. Bibliography Database is the tool and all things related to that tool should be under Tools, similarly Macros is a tool and running, assigning, editing, etc of macros is located under tools. We dont have a Edit Macros entry. It's not only for Bibliography, but for all the databases registered under LO. An example, I've one template designed for a mailing for different sets of clients, those clients are in two different databases registered under LO. Once my first mailing done on the first database, I edit the link between the template and the database to chose the second database under Edit Exchange database. There is no actions on the database, the action is between the template and the database or on the template because it keeps the link to the database. Yes i was aware its not only for the bibliography, i did open the dialog. Its not such a crucial thing, so its fine where it is. :D To edit a hyperlink, I would use the context menu or click the Hyperlink entry in the toolbar, as the Hyperlink dialog box is multi-purpose. And if you don't know about context menu (like most of our new users) and don't use toolbar, will you chose Insert as main menu to edit the hyperlink? Any user who uses a computer will be introduced to the context menu before they likely get introduced to the libreoffice. Context menus are used to managed your desktop (e.g. change your wallpaper), context menus are used in file managers (e.g. to access properties of a file), they are used in browsers (e.g. for copy text of a webpage). The stats do show this as well, with 90% of users access editing the hyperlink through the context menu and i'd assume the same stats would have been for any of the other entries in the Edit menu that i initially removed. Which part is wrong? That it is one of the least used entries in the insert menu, that it is less used that inserting an image, that it isnt used by average users. Section isnt a common feature found in documents, as its not even a common feature found in word processors. I would presume that if we analysed all the documents on bugzilla, that sections would likely be in less that 1% of them. As a simple example, the Writer user guide has tables, frames, images, bookmarks, hyperlinks, and indexes, but no sections. So the migrations I've made may have been with wrong users as they rely on sections first to insert a page (Word usage) but when made aware of it used them a lot ;) I believe sections in Word are different then sections in LibreOffice. In general, I find sad to hide things on user's preferences when they improve the layout and the robustness of the document, same reasoning as styles vs direct formating. I maybe confused but the section entry isnt being hidden, its position in the menu is just further down. One of the reasons why page break is at the top of the insert menu is because it will improve document layout, as many users still press enter many times to push content to the following page. What screen resolution do you have? Both the insert and format menus now have 25 entries in it. In 4.3, before the menus began changing, the insert menu had 23 entries and the format menu had 21 entries. 1366x768 and both are ok in 4.4 Screenshot of the insert menu on my 1280x768 laptop running Linux Mint Mate. Fits just fine for me. http://www.picpaste.com/insert_menu-rvndXAj7.png The use of direct formatting is not in competition with styles, as you can create a suitable set of direct formatting options and easily convert it into a paragraph style, or set a paragraph style and apply direct formatting to it, and then update the style based on the additional direct formatting. The command is a feature of libreoffice and is no different that opening the font size combobox to increase or decrease the font, so there isnt a need to hide it from the menu bar. The menu bar didnt even have style shortcut entries in it until i just added them, so how would a user know that ctrl+1 is for the Heading 1 style. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not against changes and value your work, you know it, I won't discuss and spend time to check everything otherwise. See my explanations below about direct formating and styles Sorry if that may have come off strong, as it wasnt intended. Yes i know you value my work and of course i value yours as well. :D As stated above, direct formatting options are not in competition with styles as styles are simply a bundled collection of direct formatting and not showing direct formatting options because users may not know about styles or choose not to use it is not the correct way to go. They are not treated
Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX
Hi, Le 10/06/2015 22:39, Jay Philips a écrit : Hi JBF, On 06/10/2015 11:46 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote: Hi, I am interested but I refuse to use Google Docs to contribute to LibreOffice project. So, no input from me. You can download the current version of the document below and make track changes and comments to it and email it back to me. I hope that is something that is acceptable to you. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Making_Impress_A_UX_Princess.zip If you don't want use Etherpad, why don't you use the wiki ? Wikis are not WYSIWYG To write some UI proposals, I don't find that it is a problem. As an example, here my most precise proposal : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance IMHO, the wiki format is ok for UI proposals. To have such a document with mockups in A4 pages (european std letter) would require a lot of work with page breaks and would be less easy/fluid to read. and hard to edit. Yes, it's a bit boring, but it forces writer to concentrate on content, structuring, not on aesthetics. (isn't there a thread about styles vs direct formatting ;-) ?) I agree that inserting image is really boring. But for text, I find it basic/rough but ok : usually, we use 3 to 4 levels of headers, bullets, paragraph numbering, bold, italic : anything that is basic in a wiki. Wikipedia worked on a new editor [1] : any chances to use it in TDF wiki ? You cant format a wiki similar to a document. As previously said, I think it's an advantage for UI proposals that have lots of images (mockups, screenshots...) : you don't waste time with page layouts/breaks ! You dont have commenting We can have something that looks similar : for the Renaissance project, each proposal had comments. Here is my proposal, with some comments (and one from Christoph Noack) : https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon#Comments I agree that it's not the same functionality level than gdoc's comments, but we can work with something so simple than that. (and comment history would be automatically saved by wiki) and track changes. Wiki have history and can make diffs. Likely when the document is fully finished, it would be published to the wiki, similar to how we are doing with the HIG. I would make the opposite : work on wiki, edit, changes... When it's finished, create an official document in A4 with first page, summary, page numbers, headers, footers, references, correct page breaks for images... well, a 'state of the art' of LibreOffice document ;-) And then integrated in the wiki (odt pdf) as last revision. Cheers, Michel [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:VisualEditor to test it : https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=VisualEditor:Test -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
