Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Bjoern Michaelsen]

Hi,

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 01:14:09PM +0200, kainz.a wrote:
> Is it possible to use libreoffice online and nextcloud for templates and
> extensions?

as said: You can host stuff on pretty much any platform. However, nextcloud
originated with a mission closer to a plain Filehosting/Intranet a la
Sharepoint or maybe Dropbox(*). That is even _less_ interactive for a broad 
public
than CMSes like Silverstripe/Wordpress/Plone. And Askbot and e.g. discourse.org
are more interactive for a public audiences than CMSes by default.

That -- and the fact that we have 45.000 accounts on it -- are the reason I
brought up Askbot. Content and accounts are the things that are hard earned on a
platform, maintainers and moderators are a bit easier, but still hard. The
pure technical platform is the easiest part.

Best,

Bjoern

(*) Those are a good fit for cooperation of a smallish group, e.g. a company or
TDF members though. Less so for involving $RANDOM_INTERNET_PERSON with the
project and the community.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[kainz.a]

Is it possible to use libreoffice online and nextcloud for templates and
extensions?

Cor Nouws  schrieb am Sa., 13. Okt. 2018, 10:56:

> Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 13-10-18 10:09:
>
> > That is not really an argument against _evaluating_ AskBot as a platform.
> > Evaluating means looking into what can be done with a platform and what
> the
> > challenges are.
> >
> > Beyond that, I have to say I am not too surprised that finding something
> in
> > Askbots 29000 entries is task a bit harder than finding a template in
> the ...
> > twelve[1] templates hosted on the extensions website.
> >
> > Proper tagging (which can be done programmatically) should make twelve
> > templates searchable with AskBot even if it misses things sometimes with
> 29000
> > other entries.
>
> True, tagging will help a lot.
> The availability of a proper way to find, search, however, is a
> condition we know in advance that we have to meet. So good to explicitly
> state it.
> It was by the way the only thing I missed in the nice sum up by Andreas,
> yesterday:
>   https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08889.html
>
> Now up to the thread Heiko started, with the link to "Requirements
> (2018-Sep-06)"
>   https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08899.html
>
> Cheers,
> Cor
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Requirements for extension site

[kainz.a]

For me the next step would be to get feedback how will help to update the
extension page.

I will help. My skills are design stuff. I know css and php.

Cor Nouws  schrieb am Sa., 13. Okt. 2018, 11:13:

> Heiko Tietze wrote on 13-10-18 09:52:
>
> > document is shared on
> > https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/E5RX5xK6jxQPLdK and open for
> > discussion.
>
> Thanks, I added some comments, suggestions. And text (Ctrl+Shft+E starts
> / stops tracking changes ;) )
> I didn't (yet) look in the mail from Andreas_k (1) to add/compare but
> think the set we are looking for, can be nice and basic.
>
> Cheers,
> Cor
>
>
> 1)  https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08889.html
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Requirements for extension site

[Cor Nouws]

Heiko Tietze wrote on 13-10-18 09:52:

> document is shared on
> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/E5RX5xK6jxQPLdK and open for
> discussion.

Thanks, I added some comments, suggestions. And text (Ctrl+Shft+E starts
/ stops tracking changes ;) )
I didn't (yet) look in the mail from Andreas_k (1) to add/compare but
think the set we are looking for, can be nice and basic.

Cheers,
Cor


1)  https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08889.html

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Cor Nouws]

Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 13-10-18 10:09:

> That is not really an argument against _evaluating_ AskBot as a platform.
> Evaluating means looking into what can be done with a platform and what the
> challenges are.
> 
> Beyond that, I have to say I am not too surprised that finding something in
> Askbots 29000 entries is task a bit harder than finding a template in the ...
> twelve[1] templates hosted on the extensions website.
> 
> Proper tagging (which can be done programmatically) should make twelve
> templates searchable with AskBot even if it misses things sometimes with 29000
> other entries.

True, tagging will help a lot.
The availability of a proper way to find, search, however, is a
condition we know in advance that we have to meet. So good to explicitly
state it.
It was by the way the only thing I missed in the nice sum up by Andreas,
yesterday:
  https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08889.html

Now up to the thread Heiko started, with the link to "Requirements
(2018-Sep-06)"
  https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08899.html

Cheers,
Cor
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Requirements for extension site

[Heiko Tietze]

After reading through the comments on the other thread I'd like to 
outline a scenario: We do provide access to Firefox Personas (Tools > 
Options > Personalization) (being reworked currently) where the user can 
place an image in the background of the toolbar/notebookbar. Those 
themes are a great success with gazillions of contributions. It's a bit 
embarrasing that we have to access data from another project and could 
host those images ourself.


As a user you probably don't know about this option to extend the 
program. So we should give access to it from the place where it is 
listed. You want to browse, sort and filter by different kind of 
attributes, mark favorites, load.


As creator of, let's say the pink theme for best integration into the 
dreamland desktop, you have no idea about sharing data, meaning the 
upload must be easy. There are a couple of settings needed such as 
license where a wizard like guidance makes sense. But in the end as less 
info as possible to make the upload a breeze.


Some "cornercases" (actually secondary requirements) have to be 
considered. Our current platform requires maintainers to state the 
compatibility with every new release (which is again a very code 
oriented view). And maintainer likely don't want to be in charge 
forever. My take here is to switch to a community based approach and 
flag non-working extensions as outdated/orphaned. Communication between 
creator/maintainer and user is essential in open source. Maybe the 
dreamland has some unicorns that should be added.


Hope all this becomes clear with the shared document and the mockups.

Am 13-Oct-18 um 10:14 schrieb Bjoern Michaelsen:


Hi Heiko,

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 09:52:01AM +0200, Heiko Tietze wrote:

Based on these insights we created a new document for a new hosting platform.
The document is shared on
https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/E5RX5xK6jxQPLdK and open for
discussion.

Thanks for sharing that.

That looks indeed like a very promising approach to finding the core 
functionality
that is needed.

Best,

Bjoern



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Heiko Tietze]

Am 12-Oct-18 um 18:18 schrieb Maarten Brouwers (murb):




So tl;dr: This is the design list, we do 1/ "Identify core needs and usecases"
here. No tools/platform discussion[1]. Next up would be finding enthusiastic
people willing to work on this.

... I agree with the critiques that the old ‘requirements’-document has way too 
many requirements.
It was a _description_ of the current site, basis for a discussion how 
to improve, and served now for the new requirements document that 
consider needs from the scratch. I recommend to keep this thread plain 
as "check askbot" and to do the usability work in the other thread I 
started this morning.



Let’s start with some stake holders (not extensive):

The users
- Want to find extensions that solve their needs (and that are trustworthy / 
reliable / of quality)
Moderators
- Want to help users find the best extensions as simply as possible
The extension creators
- Want to make their extension findable
LibreOffice.org 
- Wants the site to be maintained well
I definitely like this way to think. What always bothers me is 
"extension and template" as if there is code (macros) and templates. We 
can and do share more right now (color palettes, icon themes, gallery 
images etc.) and plan to offer more. Thus two types of "creators" 
contribute: those who could also share their stuff on Github and others 
who are not too tech-savvy.
As for the users I wish to not need to go to some ther place but have 
direct access in the program 
https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2016/11/11/additions-to-libreoffice/. 
Nevertheless we need it for some use cases.


Thanks for commenting,
Heiko

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Requirements for extension site

[Bjoern Michaelsen]

Hi Heiko,

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 09:52:01AM +0200, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> Based on these insights we created a new document for a new hosting platform.
> The document is shared on
> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/E5RX5xK6jxQPLdK and open for
> discussion.

Thanks for sharing that.

That looks indeed like a very promising approach to finding the core 
functionality
that is needed.

Best,

Bjoern

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Bjoern Michaelsen]

Hi,

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 10:45:48AM -0600, Taylor Jenkins wrote:
> The only way, architecturally, that I see ask.libreoffice.org being able to
> play a role in an extension repository, is if the uploaded extensions were
> stored to a remotely queriable database for access by a separate front end
> at libreoffice.org. In fact, it would be really great if the
> ask.libreoffice.org message board could also be embedded in this front end,
> to make for a seamless UX.

Yes, those are some of the benefits I was considering. Especially as Askbot
provides some commenting, feedback and wiki functionality that the current
extension website is missing.

Best,

Bjoern

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Bjoern Michaelsen]

Hi,

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 09:48:35PM +, toki wrote:
> Until/unless the search function on ask.libreoffice is fixed, migrating
> there is going to ensure that absolutely, positively ensure that nobody
> will ever find the extension that they are looking for. 

That is not really an argument against _evaluating_ AskBot as a platform.
Evaluating means looking into what can be done with a platform and what the
challenges are.

Beyond that, I have to say I am not too surprised that finding something in
Askbots 29000 entries is task a bit harder than finding a template in the ...
twelve[1] templates hosted on the extensions website.

Proper tagging (which can be done programmatically) should make twelve
templates searchable with AskBot even if it misses things sometimes with 29000
other entries.

Best,

Bjoern

[1] "Currently there are 12 LibreOffice template project(s) with 20 release(s) 
available."
https://extensions.libreoffice.org/ 

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[libreoffice-design] Requirements for extension site

[Heiko Tietze]

Hi all,

before (or maybe in parallel to) checking whether Askbot is usable as a 
platform for LibreOffice extensions we should clearly define what 
requirements are needed. There is a very old document circulating In the 
other thread, which _describes_ the state of the current site. Based on 
these insights we created a new document for a new hosting platform. The 
document is shared on 
https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/E5RX5xK6jxQPLdK and open for 
discussion.


Cheers,

Heiko


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Taylor Jenkins]

As a user of libreoffice interested in searching for an available
extension, the logical place to look is libreoffice.org. While
ask.libreoffice.org may be easy for contributors to upload and discuss
extensions,  it is a nightmare to navigate for someone simply trying to
find available extensions, and I seriously doubt it can be configured in
such a way as to make the search pleasant.

The only way, architecturally, that I see ask.libreoffice.org being able to
play a role in an extension repository, is if the uploaded extensions were
stored to a remotely queriable database for access by a separate front end
at libreoffice.org. In fact, it would be really great if the
ask.libreoffice.org message board could also be embedded in this front end,
to make for a seamless UX.

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018, 10:02 AM MiguelAngel  wrote:

> Hi Bjoern,
>
> I have been at ask since the beginning, so let me think that I can talk
> with some knowledge.
>
> Is it successful? Apparently maybe, many users is the only place they
> know. But many people remains in the AOo forums specially volunteers
> because don't like Ask.
>
> For me Its usability is far from optimal.Basics like messages from
> threads, badly works.
>
> IMHO, unless Ask has some hidden capabilities for that purpose, I cannot
> see how it can serve to improve the current situation for extensions and
> templates. Sure I need to review the graduation of my contact lenses.:)
>
> Anyway, if it's so good or the better solution in this situation, I
> think you don't need of anyone for that, so please just do it. We can
> live with two places at once.
>
> Miguel Ángel
>
> El 12/10/18 a las 1:12, Bjoern Michaelsen escribió:
> > Hi Miguel,
> >
> > (you do not seem to be subscribed to the design@ list, so others will
> not see
> > your mail. I will reply anyway, but please consider subscribing to the
> mailing
> > list when discussing there.)
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:56:43PM +0200, Miguel Ángel Ríos Vázquez
> wrote:
> >> Can we really think about using Ask for that?
> > yes. The problems are well-known, have repeatedly communicated in the
> project
> > since at least 2013. There really isnt any news here. Unfortunately,
> there has
> > been little movement, the community around the old extension webpage did
> not
> > grow despite efforts to do so and even external commercial support wasnt
> > unlocking the situation.
> >
> > OTOH, my mail clearly stated that I would like to invite the design team
> to
> > consider thinking outside of the box and ALSO think about
> ask.libreoffice.org
> > as a platform. This e.g. doesnt mean that the old Plone site _needs_ to
> die --
> > but it should not be the only platform considered to provide the much
> needed
> > content hosting.
> >
> > If this results in three to four people volunteering to push the old page
> > forward in a coordinated effort, I am a happy bunny. BUT: Given this has
> been
> > tried since 2013 at least and given the feedback I heard from even
> commercial
> > suppliers about the state of things, I am not too optimistic.
> >
> >> My impression is that it is not even very well accepted as a forum. Not
> an
> >> example of success.
> > Impressions are odd in that. ask.libreoffice.org is certainly the most
> > successful forum LibreOffice currently hosts.
> >
> > https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/users/  shows currently 1547 pages of 30
> users
> > each, so >45.000 registered accounts on ask.libreoffice.org. For
> comparison:
> > wiki.documentfoundation.org has ~17.000 accounts. I'd assume all other
> TDF
> > infra has less accounts.
> >
> > https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/questions/  has >29.000 _english_
> questions
> > alone. For comparision: wiki.documentfoundation.org has ~22.000 pages
> in all
> > languages.
> >
> > While there is always room for improvement, ask.libreoffice.org is our
> most
> > successful platform -- by far.
> >
> >> And on the other hand we could be more thankful with the volunteer work
> of
> >> the people in the project, whether we like it or not.
> > That is also true for those content creators trying to use the extension
> > website to publish content. I posted some random tweets that show their
> > experience. Unfortunately, that feedback isnt too hard to find and has
> been
> > around for years. People uploading their first extension or template are
> > newcomers to the community -- and as active contributors we should make
> sure
> > their experience is not too aweful. The tweets -- together with the fact
> that
> > so many extensions and templates are hosted elsewhere (e.g. on github)
> shows
> > that we are loosing contributors and miss the opportunity to integrate
> them
> > with the wider community. We let those future contributors down.
> >
> >
> > So: tl;dr: I encouraged the design team to look ALSO look at
> ask.libreoffice.org
> > for allowing content publication, esp. since we had good past experience
> with
> > getting commercial support for it for well-defined feature req

Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[Maarten Brouwers (murb)]

Hi Bjoern,

> So tl;dr: This is the design list, we do 1/ "Identify core needs and usecases"
> here. No tools/platform discussion[1]. Next up would be finding enthusiastic
> people willing to work on this. 

Ok, so one of the core needs you actually emphasise is actual support by 
*multiple* volunteers, not relying on a single person to do moderation and/or 
maintenance, which is currently a problem with extensions.libreoffice.org 
. Very valid point indeed.

A Q/A site by definition gets a lot of users, and satisfied users turn into 
actual contributors on such sites. Good to learn that it is also maintained 
properly. But from that it doesn’t follow that it is the right tool for the job 
of serving extensions & templates. As the earlier mentioned GDoc pointed out, 
there are other requirements than having moderators and maintainers, even 
though no UGC-site can really exist without them. Having said that, I agree 
with the critiques that the old ‘requirements’-document has way too many 
requirements.

Let’s start with some stake holders (not extensive):

The users
- Want to find extensions that solve their needs (and that are trustworthy / 
reliable / of quality)
Moderators
- Want to help users find the best extensions as simply as possible
The extension creators
- Want to make their extension findable
LibreOffice.org 
- Wants the site to be maintained well

I believe you came to the design list mainly reasoning problems that 
LibreOffice.org  is having with the current 
extensions-site as an organisation. I guess most on this list think primarily 
from a users’ perspective, secondary extension creators perspective. A design 
list-member cannot guarantee any long term support from maintainers (requires 
technical skills) and moderators (requires experimentation), although they may 
be able to point out why a current solution is not working well for any of the 
people involved (although again, maintenance is quite a different skill). I’d 
like to assume that a popular site should be able to get the (possibly paid) 
maintenance it requires.

A pragmatic approach to this problem, which I believe you’re after, requires 
not only design list involvement, but also people who want to maintain (and or 
build) it, otherwise we’re after a waterfall style approach where the design 
team is thinking of great features which are too hard to implement and will 
never turn into something that is properly realised.

From what I can see now: adapting ask.libreoffice.org 
 requires way more effort to turn it into a proper 
extension-site than either adapting the current extensions-site or adopting an 
existing solution of another project, because I believe ask.libreoffice.org 
 currently lacks:

* Structured storing of metadata, most importantly: versions that it works 
with, screenshot(s), authorship, license, links to further documentation / 
source (automatically extracted or not)
* Listing should feature part of this metadata directly (title and votes is not 
enough)
* Should communicate ‘Extensions-site’ (it should at least quack like a duck if 
it wants to be a duck), not Q/A
* Clear separation of certain categories (most importantly Extensions & 
Templates, but I could imagine Language support as another main category, not 
just a random collection of ’tags’)

I was unaware of the extensions’ site problem with lack of volunteers actually. 
Some call for volunteers in that respect there would help :) To be honest, I 
don’t even have extensions installed. I think it is partly caused by the lack 
of end-user centric design; as extensions weren’t really well promoted in the 
first place it looked a bit amateurish. I’m actually able to help there (as a 
front-end developer) and think a few things would help a lot already:

* First and mostly: Remove the focus from ‘most recent’ and focus on most 
popular; currently some 
* Allow for more (high resolution) screenshots that can better communicate what 
the extensions are doing
* Promote the download link
* Downplay ‘requirements’ if those requirements are being fulfilled by the 
default installations of 5.x and greater release already (isn’t Python UNO part 
of the default installation?)
* Ask for moderators on the site if there aren’t really any :)

I’d hope that more volunteers would follow from a more used & usable 
extensions-site.

Maybe we should move the discussion to a spot where all stakeholders and 
potential volunteers are involved. I’m happy to subscribe to that spot :)

g.,


Maarten






> Op 12 okt. 2018, om 16:02 heeft Bjoern Michaelsen 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Hi Maarten,
> 
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 02:06:54PM +0200, Maarten Brouwers (murb) wrote:
>> What about adapting Mozilla’s extension-site? 
> 
> So lets phrase the problem differently: We are not lacking tools or platforms.
> We are lacking voluntee