Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-18 Thread Stefan Knorr
Hi Jean-Francois,

Some more replies, as requested... even if I am not really a power that is.

On 9 February 2014 09:34, Jean-Francois Nifenecker
jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote:
 In my FR installs the Stylist and the Navigator are installed but not
 displayed. I know very few users who actually know these tools exist and
 what they are meant for, not telling about displaying or using them :(

Which is sad. Maybe some first-start wizard would help (think: a few arrows
overlaid on top of the software: this is here, that is there etc.)?
Additionally, I think the sidebar could really help make Styles  Formatting/
Navigator more visible.


 As for the default settings, I have been wondering since the very first
 times of OOo 1.1.1 why the French apostrophe is not setup (the setting
 is available) while the French quote is.

I guess we covered why that is not as simple as you make it seem.


 Other lacking settings: display non-printing chars,

Believe it or not, lots of people find them ugly. (I know they're invaluable
when trying to find duplicate spaces etc.)
Given that in Master the display of non-printing chracters is now less
conspicuous, it may be an option to turn them on by default in 4.3.


 activate the backup copy

Well, that function seems rather crude to me. OK, it does let you restore one
older version of your files. But what if you pressed save twice since the last
good version?
You would be better served with real version control/a real content management
system. It would be cool if that were integrated in LibreOffice though.


 prefer the richer LibO dialogs

Phew... they may have improved, but their UI is still worse than any of the
Windows/OS X/Gnome/KDE file choosers. Yes, they have extra functionality, but
storing in Alfresco shares is not that important to the average user. Of
course, if any cloud storage integration does come to LibreOffice,
the default selected file chooser option may have to change. But so does
LibreOffice's internal file chooser.


 adjust zoom settings.

What exactly do you mean by that?


 In Writer: add an Insert from file toolbutton

There is one in the drawing toolbar, but I see what you mean.


 set the Table toolbar position non-floating.

I think it hasn't been since either 3.6 or 4.0. In any case, it is now
docked at the bottom for me.


 In Draw: add a Fontwork toolbutton (the Fontwork toolbar can't do what
 this button does; or did I miss smthg?)

I am not sure I understand. There is a Fontwork button in the drawing toolbar
(which is on by default in Draw).
Also, if it didn't need to be there for compatibility reasons, I'd rather the
whole feature be trashed. There is literally no way create anything good with
it. (Yeah, that is a snobby and not very humble opinion.)


 Well, what I'm writing is about FR installs, though some common
 denominator could be found between languages (Stylist and Navigator come
 to mind).

I think the documentation angle is the best way to attack many of these things.
LibreOffice tries to support home users as much as institutional ones, a
good guide of the features interesting to institutions but possibly diverting
for home users would be great.


Astron.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-11 Thread Stephan Bergmann

On 02/10/2014 06:44 PM, heinzless...@gmail.com wrote:

Anyway, just want to pick out a single from all your points: the single quote 
correction.
The reason why it's off by default is because it is not clever enough to tell 
when an apostrophe (as in Rock 'n' roll, in the worst case with exactly that 
spelling) or an actual quote is meant, as the key pressed in either case is the 
same. The compromise then of course is that we get neither typographically 
correct... which seems to lead lots of people to misappropriate accents for 
apostrophes.


My take is that all such rules (another example being whether to use or 
to break a ligature), to be practically useful, need to employ 
(locale-dependent) context-sensitive heuristics (the same way that 
automatic hyphenation does).


Stephan

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-10 Thread heinzlesspam
Hi all,

Sorry for top-posting. I am on the phone.

Anyway, just want to pick out a single from all your points: the single quote 
correction.
The reason why it's off by default is because it is not clever enough to tell 
when an apostrophe (as in Rock 'n' roll, in the worst case with exactly that 
spelling) or an actual quote is meant, as the key pressed in either case is the 
same. The compromise then of course is that we get neither typographically 
correct... which seems to lead lots of people to misappropriate accents for 
apostrophes.

Astron.
On 09.02.14 09:34 Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:
Hello Tom,

Le 08/02/2014 21:59, Tom Davies a écrit :
 
 However, I'm a bit confused by the No Stylist, no Navigator, missing
 settings..  Do you mean those things are not open by default?  They
 seem to be there for me after doing an install but just not open and
 ready to use.

In my FR installs the Stylist and the Navigator are installed but not
displayed. I know very few users who actually know these tools exist and
what they are meant for, not telling about displaying or using them :(

As for the default settings, I have been wondering since the very first
times of OOo 1.1.1 why the French apostrophe is not setup (the setting
is available) while the French quote is. As a consequence most French
users use the wrong character and create faulty documents. The automatic
setting would be s easy to add...

Other lacking settings: display non-printing chars, activate the backup
copy, prefer the richer LibO dialogs, adjust zoom settings.
In Writer: add an Insert from file toolbutton, set the Table toolbar
position non-floating.
In Draw: add a Fontwork toolbutton (the Fontwork toolbar can't do what
this button does; or did I miss smthg?)

Optionally, some extensions can really help, like AltSearch.

 
 
 I'm not sure if someone from documentation is also working on the
 types of things you are writing.  Even if they are there is a good
 chance they have stalled and might appreciate someone else taking over
 what they have done so far and that might help give you some other
 ideas or confirm some of the ones you had already.
 

Well, what I'm writing is about FR installs, though some common
denominator could be found between languages (Stylist and Navigator come
to mind).

-- 
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-10 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Hellon Astron,

Le 10/02/2014 18:44, heinzless...@gmail.com a écrit :
 
 Anyway, just want to pick out a single from all your points: the
 single quote correction. The reason why it's off by default is
 because it is not clever enough to tell when an apostrophe (as in
 Rock 'n' roll, in the worst case with exactly that spelling) or an
 actual quote is meant, as the key pressed in either case is the same.
 The compromise then of course is that we get neither typographically
 correct... which seems to lead lots of people to misappropriate
 accents for apostrophes.

Well, if I understand correctly, it seems better to not set a
typographic must-have for a very common character because of a few
border-line cases? The same could be told about the French double-quotes
which *are* correctly setup and rendered but can bring some problems
when one wants actual  (angle second) marks.

Sorry, I don't understand that reasoning.

/o\
-- 
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-10 Thread Stefan Knorr
Hi Jean-Francois,

On 10 February 2014 19:42, Jean-Francois Nifenecker
jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote:
 Well, if I understand correctly, it seems better to not set a
 typographic must-have for a very common character because of a few
 border-line cases?

I think your look at this problem is very much informed by your being
French and by your own professional perspective.
My mother tongue, German, for instance uses far fewer apostrophes,
especially in formal writing, as apostrophes most often appear in
informal contractions (geht's = does it go, hast's = have you got it,
...). I would suppose that my apostrophe-to-single-quote ratio in all
my German writing is around three to one. In academic writing
especially, with its rigid quoting requirements the ratio in German
(and maybe even in English) will actually tip in favour of the single
quotes.
Similarly, Angloamerican publishers of fiction very often use single
quotes in place of all regular quotes. (Of course, they do have the
advantage that their closing typographic quote mark looks the same as
an apostrophe, I think.)


 The same could be told about the French double-quotes
 which *are* correctly setup and rendered but can bring some problems
 when one wants actual  (angle second) marks.

Well, sorry to tell you, but straight quotes aren't actually good for
much. They are at least not the correct character to use for angle
seconds [1] or inches.


Astron.


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_arc#Symbols_and_abbreviations

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-10 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Hello Astron,

Le 10/02/2014 23:23, Stefan Knorr a écrit :
 
 I think your look at this problem is very much informed by your being
 French and by your own professional perspective.
 My mother tongue, German, for instance uses far fewer apostrophes,
 especially in formal writing, as apostrophes most often appear in
 informal contractions (geht's = does it go, hast's = have you got it,
 ...). I would suppose that my apostrophe-to-single-quote ratio in all
 my German writing is around three to one. In academic writing
 especially, with its rigid quoting requirements the ratio in German
 (and maybe even in English) will actually tip in favour of the single
 quotes.
 Similarly, Angloamerican publishers of fiction very often use single
 quotes in place of all regular quotes. (Of course, they do have the
 advantage that their closing typographic quote mark looks the same as
 an apostrophe, I think.)

I can't give actual numbers for French but a hard guess would be around
100 to 1. The apostrophe comes everytime the article Le (mascusline)
or La (feminine) is placed in front of a noun or adjective that starts
with a vowel. And there are plenty of these ;)

 
 Well, sorry to tell you, but straight quotes aren't actually good for
 much. They are at least not the correct character to use for angle
 seconds [1] or inches.

Yes, you're right. But this is the current use FR writers find to that
character. Of course, the Insert  Special chars menu option is there
for that.

-- 
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-10 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Le 11/02/2014 07:42, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit :
 
 I can't give actual numbers for French but a hard guess would be around
 100 to 1. The apostrophe comes everytime the article Le (mascusline)
 or La (feminine) is placed in front of a noun or adjective that starts
 with a vowel. And there are plenty of these ;)

There are also all occurences of qui and que that become qu' for
the same vowel reason stated above.

eg: Le logiciel qu'il utilise
(the software he uses)

Of course there are some other situation where the apostrophe is used
but the two above are the most frequent.

-- 
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-09 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Hello Tom,

Le 08/02/2014 21:59, Tom Davies a écrit :
 
 However, I'm a bit confused by the No Stylist, no Navigator, missing
 settings..  Do you mean those things are not open by default?  They
 seem to be there for me after doing an install but just not open and
 ready to use.

In my FR installs the Stylist and the Navigator are installed but not
displayed. I know very few users who actually know these tools exist and
what they are meant for, not telling about displaying or using them :(

As for the default settings, I have been wondering since the very first
times of OOo 1.1.1 why the French apostrophe is not setup (the setting
is available) while the French quote is. As a consequence most French
users use the wrong character and create faulty documents. The automatic
setting would be s easy to add...

Other lacking settings: display non-printing chars, activate the backup
copy, prefer the richer LibO dialogs, adjust zoom settings.
In Writer: add an Insert from file toolbutton, set the Table toolbar
position non-floating.
In Draw: add a Fontwork toolbutton (the Fontwork toolbar can't do what
this button does; or did I miss smthg?)

Optionally, some extensions can really help, like AltSearch.

 
 
 I'm not sure if someone from documentation is also working on the
 types of things you are writing.  Even if they are there is a good
 chance they have stalled and might appreciate someone else taking over
 what they have done so far and that might help give you some other
 ideas or confirm some of the ones you had already.
 

Well, what I'm writing is about FR installs, though some common
denominator could be found between languages (Stylist and Navigator come
to mind).

-- 
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?

2014-02-08 Thread Tom Davies
Hi :)
I agree that quite a few things could be made much easier for corporate users.

However, I'm a bit confused by the No Stylist, no Navigator, missing
settings..  Do you mean those things are not open by default?  They
seem to be there for me after doing an install but just not open and
ready to use.


I'm not sure if someone from documentation is also working on the
types of things you are writing.  Even if they are there is a good
chance they have stalled and might appreciate someone else taking over
what they have done so far and that might help give you some other
ideas or confirm some of the ones you had already.

Regards from
Tom :)



On 8 February 2014 14:30, Jean-Francois Nifenecker
jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote:
 Hi,

 This has been posted as a contribution to another thread here. I feel
 this is very important and should be discussed in a separate thread. So,
 here we go.


 *Who* is the LibreOffice installation target?

 -- Business and Corporate users?

 Why, then, is the tool un-finished when the installation is over? No
 Stylist, no Navigator, missing settings. Worse, all these are hidden. If
 no-one in the company IT dept knows how much efficiency can be pulled
 from LibO, these gems stay hidden. This explains why thousands of users
 are indeed struggling against the tool while LibO is designed to help them.
 That's a real, real, shame. On a side note, this doesn't help getting
 market shares from these targets. From some pov the current office
 suites (unfortunately LibO is not alone), make me feel they are toys
 until someone takes some time to configure them before handling them to
 their in-house users. And I can tell you many IT depts won't ever change
 one single bit after LibO has been installed: the user is left alone.

 -- John Doe?

 Ok, fine with me. But then, please, give the businesses and corporate
 users a tool, a preset, something, anything to help them setting LibO to
 reach the efficiency their users need everyday.


 Currently the answer to the question is John Doe. Corporate users are
 left in a no man's land where they have to deal with problems by
 themselves with no help from any in-house dept. As a result, users just
 struggle with the office software to have their documents done. The IT
 dept generally have no clue to what's in a bird: they just install the
 software. The bosses never mind: they take decisions but won't ever use
 the tools. In the Office suite world, efficiency is just a motto.



 Don't you think our suite of predilection is worth better in corporate
 environments? Design and Marketing, any idea?

 IMO, LibO could help in the following ways:
 -- produce a document explaining what settings are better in a corporate
 environment (I'm currently working on that);
 -- having a document showing in details how to change the command-line
 installation settings to fit corporate needs (this might already exist
 but I failed to find it)
 -- have a specific installation tool that would give a ready-for-use
 suite right after intall.

 all this is *very* important in order to LibreOffice to make its way in
 businesses and corporate environments. Failing to do so is shooting
 oneself in the foot.
 --
 Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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