Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
Hi Jean-Francois, Some more replies, as requested... even if I am not really a power that is. On 9 February 2014 09:34, Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote: In my FR installs the Stylist and the Navigator are installed but not displayed. I know very few users who actually know these tools exist and what they are meant for, not telling about displaying or using them :( Which is sad. Maybe some first-start wizard would help (think: a few arrows overlaid on top of the software: this is here, that is there etc.)? Additionally, I think the sidebar could really help make Styles Formatting/ Navigator more visible. As for the default settings, I have been wondering since the very first times of OOo 1.1.1 why the French apostrophe is not setup (the setting is available) while the French quote is. I guess we covered why that is not as simple as you make it seem. Other lacking settings: display non-printing chars, Believe it or not, lots of people find them ugly. (I know they're invaluable when trying to find duplicate spaces etc.) Given that in Master the display of non-printing chracters is now less conspicuous, it may be an option to turn them on by default in 4.3. activate the backup copy Well, that function seems rather crude to me. OK, it does let you restore one older version of your files. But what if you pressed save twice since the last good version? You would be better served with real version control/a real content management system. It would be cool if that were integrated in LibreOffice though. prefer the richer LibO dialogs Phew... they may have improved, but their UI is still worse than any of the Windows/OS X/Gnome/KDE file choosers. Yes, they have extra functionality, but storing in Alfresco shares is not that important to the average user. Of course, if any cloud storage integration does come to LibreOffice, the default selected file chooser option may have to change. But so does LibreOffice's internal file chooser. adjust zoom settings. What exactly do you mean by that? In Writer: add an Insert from file toolbutton There is one in the drawing toolbar, but I see what you mean. set the Table toolbar position non-floating. I think it hasn't been since either 3.6 or 4.0. In any case, it is now docked at the bottom for me. In Draw: add a Fontwork toolbutton (the Fontwork toolbar can't do what this button does; or did I miss smthg?) I am not sure I understand. There is a Fontwork button in the drawing toolbar (which is on by default in Draw). Also, if it didn't need to be there for compatibility reasons, I'd rather the whole feature be trashed. There is literally no way create anything good with it. (Yeah, that is a snobby and not very humble opinion.) Well, what I'm writing is about FR installs, though some common denominator could be found between languages (Stylist and Navigator come to mind). I think the documentation angle is the best way to attack many of these things. LibreOffice tries to support home users as much as institutional ones, a good guide of the features interesting to institutions but possibly diverting for home users would be great. Astron. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
On 02/10/2014 06:44 PM, heinzless...@gmail.com wrote: Anyway, just want to pick out a single from all your points: the single quote correction. The reason why it's off by default is because it is not clever enough to tell when an apostrophe (as in Rock 'n' roll, in the worst case with exactly that spelling) or an actual quote is meant, as the key pressed in either case is the same. The compromise then of course is that we get neither typographically correct... which seems to lead lots of people to misappropriate accents for apostrophes. My take is that all such rules (another example being whether to use or to break a ligature), to be practically useful, need to employ (locale-dependent) context-sensitive heuristics (the same way that automatic hyphenation does). Stephan -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
Hi all, Sorry for top-posting. I am on the phone. Anyway, just want to pick out a single from all your points: the single quote correction. The reason why it's off by default is because it is not clever enough to tell when an apostrophe (as in Rock 'n' roll, in the worst case with exactly that spelling) or an actual quote is meant, as the key pressed in either case is the same. The compromise then of course is that we get neither typographically correct... which seems to lead lots of people to misappropriate accents for apostrophes. Astron. On 09.02.14 09:34 Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: Hello Tom, Le 08/02/2014 21:59, Tom Davies a écrit : However, I'm a bit confused by the No Stylist, no Navigator, missing settings.. Do you mean those things are not open by default? They seem to be there for me after doing an install but just not open and ready to use. In my FR installs the Stylist and the Navigator are installed but not displayed. I know very few users who actually know these tools exist and what they are meant for, not telling about displaying or using them :( As for the default settings, I have been wondering since the very first times of OOo 1.1.1 why the French apostrophe is not setup (the setting is available) while the French quote is. As a consequence most French users use the wrong character and create faulty documents. The automatic setting would be s easy to add... Other lacking settings: display non-printing chars, activate the backup copy, prefer the richer LibO dialogs, adjust zoom settings. In Writer: add an Insert from file toolbutton, set the Table toolbar position non-floating. In Draw: add a Fontwork toolbutton (the Fontwork toolbar can't do what this button does; or did I miss smthg?) Optionally, some extensions can really help, like AltSearch. I'm not sure if someone from documentation is also working on the types of things you are writing. Even if they are there is a good chance they have stalled and might appreciate someone else taking over what they have done so far and that might help give you some other ideas or confirm some of the ones you had already. Well, what I'm writing is about FR installs, though some common denominator could be found between languages (Stylist and Navigator come to mind). -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
Hellon Astron, Le 10/02/2014 18:44, heinzless...@gmail.com a écrit : Anyway, just want to pick out a single from all your points: the single quote correction. The reason why it's off by default is because it is not clever enough to tell when an apostrophe (as in Rock 'n' roll, in the worst case with exactly that spelling) or an actual quote is meant, as the key pressed in either case is the same. The compromise then of course is that we get neither typographically correct... which seems to lead lots of people to misappropriate accents for apostrophes. Well, if I understand correctly, it seems better to not set a typographic must-have for a very common character because of a few border-line cases? The same could be told about the French double-quotes which *are* correctly setup and rendered but can bring some problems when one wants actual (angle second) marks. Sorry, I don't understand that reasoning. /o\ -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
Hi Jean-Francois, On 10 February 2014 19:42, Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote: Well, if I understand correctly, it seems better to not set a typographic must-have for a very common character because of a few border-line cases? I think your look at this problem is very much informed by your being French and by your own professional perspective. My mother tongue, German, for instance uses far fewer apostrophes, especially in formal writing, as apostrophes most often appear in informal contractions (geht's = does it go, hast's = have you got it, ...). I would suppose that my apostrophe-to-single-quote ratio in all my German writing is around three to one. In academic writing especially, with its rigid quoting requirements the ratio in German (and maybe even in English) will actually tip in favour of the single quotes. Similarly, Angloamerican publishers of fiction very often use single quotes in place of all regular quotes. (Of course, they do have the advantage that their closing typographic quote mark looks the same as an apostrophe, I think.) The same could be told about the French double-quotes which *are* correctly setup and rendered but can bring some problems when one wants actual (angle second) marks. Well, sorry to tell you, but straight quotes aren't actually good for much. They are at least not the correct character to use for angle seconds [1] or inches. Astron. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_arc#Symbols_and_abbreviations -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
Hello Astron, Le 10/02/2014 23:23, Stefan Knorr a écrit : I think your look at this problem is very much informed by your being French and by your own professional perspective. My mother tongue, German, for instance uses far fewer apostrophes, especially in formal writing, as apostrophes most often appear in informal contractions (geht's = does it go, hast's = have you got it, ...). I would suppose that my apostrophe-to-single-quote ratio in all my German writing is around three to one. In academic writing especially, with its rigid quoting requirements the ratio in German (and maybe even in English) will actually tip in favour of the single quotes. Similarly, Angloamerican publishers of fiction very often use single quotes in place of all regular quotes. (Of course, they do have the advantage that their closing typographic quote mark looks the same as an apostrophe, I think.) I can't give actual numbers for French but a hard guess would be around 100 to 1. The apostrophe comes everytime the article Le (mascusline) or La (feminine) is placed in front of a noun or adjective that starts with a vowel. And there are plenty of these ;) Well, sorry to tell you, but straight quotes aren't actually good for much. They are at least not the correct character to use for angle seconds [1] or inches. Yes, you're right. But this is the current use FR writers find to that character. Of course, the Insert Special chars menu option is there for that. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
Le 11/02/2014 07:42, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit : I can't give actual numbers for French but a hard guess would be around 100 to 1. The apostrophe comes everytime the article Le (mascusline) or La (feminine) is placed in front of a noun or adjective that starts with a vowel. And there are plenty of these ;) There are also all occurences of qui and que that become qu' for the same vowel reason stated above. eg: Le logiciel qu'il utilise (the software he uses) Of course there are some other situation where the apostrophe is used but the two above are the most frequent. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
Hello Tom, Le 08/02/2014 21:59, Tom Davies a écrit : However, I'm a bit confused by the No Stylist, no Navigator, missing settings.. Do you mean those things are not open by default? They seem to be there for me after doing an install but just not open and ready to use. In my FR installs the Stylist and the Navigator are installed but not displayed. I know very few users who actually know these tools exist and what they are meant for, not telling about displaying or using them :( As for the default settings, I have been wondering since the very first times of OOo 1.1.1 why the French apostrophe is not setup (the setting is available) while the French quote is. As a consequence most French users use the wrong character and create faulty documents. The automatic setting would be s easy to add... Other lacking settings: display non-printing chars, activate the backup copy, prefer the richer LibO dialogs, adjust zoom settings. In Writer: add an Insert from file toolbutton, set the Table toolbar position non-floating. In Draw: add a Fontwork toolbutton (the Fontwork toolbar can't do what this button does; or did I miss smthg?) Optionally, some extensions can really help, like AltSearch. I'm not sure if someone from documentation is also working on the types of things you are writing. Even if they are there is a good chance they have stalled and might appreciate someone else taking over what they have done so far and that might help give you some other ideas or confirm some of the ones you had already. Well, what I'm writing is about FR installs, though some common denominator could be found between languages (Stylist and Navigator come to mind). -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Who on Earth is the LibO installation target?
Hi :) I agree that quite a few things could be made much easier for corporate users. However, I'm a bit confused by the No Stylist, no Navigator, missing settings.. Do you mean those things are not open by default? They seem to be there for me after doing an install but just not open and ready to use. I'm not sure if someone from documentation is also working on the types of things you are writing. Even if they are there is a good chance they have stalled and might appreciate someone else taking over what they have done so far and that might help give you some other ideas or confirm some of the ones you had already. Regards from Tom :) On 8 February 2014 14:30, Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote: Hi, This has been posted as a contribution to another thread here. I feel this is very important and should be discussed in a separate thread. So, here we go. *Who* is the LibreOffice installation target? -- Business and Corporate users? Why, then, is the tool un-finished when the installation is over? No Stylist, no Navigator, missing settings. Worse, all these are hidden. If no-one in the company IT dept knows how much efficiency can be pulled from LibO, these gems stay hidden. This explains why thousands of users are indeed struggling against the tool while LibO is designed to help them. That's a real, real, shame. On a side note, this doesn't help getting market shares from these targets. From some pov the current office suites (unfortunately LibO is not alone), make me feel they are toys until someone takes some time to configure them before handling them to their in-house users. And I can tell you many IT depts won't ever change one single bit after LibO has been installed: the user is left alone. -- John Doe? Ok, fine with me. But then, please, give the businesses and corporate users a tool, a preset, something, anything to help them setting LibO to reach the efficiency their users need everyday. Currently the answer to the question is John Doe. Corporate users are left in a no man's land where they have to deal with problems by themselves with no help from any in-house dept. As a result, users just struggle with the office software to have their documents done. The IT dept generally have no clue to what's in a bird: they just install the software. The bosses never mind: they take decisions but won't ever use the tools. In the Office suite world, efficiency is just a motto. Don't you think our suite of predilection is worth better in corporate environments? Design and Marketing, any idea? IMO, LibO could help in the following ways: -- produce a document explaining what settings are better in a corporate environment (I'm currently working on that); -- having a document showing in details how to change the command-line installation settings to fit corporate needs (this might already exist but I failed to find it) -- have a specific installation tool that would give a ready-for-use suite right after intall. all this is *very* important in order to LibreOffice to make its way in businesses and corporate environments. Failing to do so is shooting oneself in the foot. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
