Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Björn Balazs]

Hi all,

I haven't taken a look at the actual design, so I do not have an 
opinion on the discussion here. 

What I like is the idea to involve users into defining the future 
direction. 

But I guess we should rethink the way of doing it. I do not believe 
g+ (as I understood) is an appropriate way of doing it / activating 
users. Thus the results are subject of discussion.

I more than happy to help finding / defining better ways to involve 
users in future if there is a larger interest in this topic.

All the best,
Björn



Am Sonntag, 27. Januar 2013, 21:27:43 schrieb Mirek M.:
> Guide for testing the artwork on Linux:
> Rename splash.png from the package as intro.png and place it along 
with
> sofficerc, backing_left.png, backing_space.png, and 
backing_right.png into
> your home folder. Then open the Terminal and write the following:
> sudo cp intro.png /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/
> sudo cp sofficerc /etc/libreoffice/
> sudo cp backing_left.png /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/shell/
> sudo cp backing_space.png /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/shell/
> sudo cp backing_right.png /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/shell/
> 
> To answer Italo:
> 
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Italo Vignoli 
wrote:
> > On 1/27/13 7:25 PM, Mirek M. wrote:
> > > Again, I'd encourage you to try it out before judging.
> > > If you're still firmly opposed to it, we can revert back to the 
3.6
> > > branding.
> > 
> > Everything is white, nothing is green. Sorry, I do not like it at 
all. I
> > am not a design expert but a decent communication expert, and we 
have
> > already had a huge issue in the past when OOo switched from 
something
> > colourful to something completely white, and many users 
complained in a
> > rather strong way (and I was one of the most vocal). We should 
improve
> > the design of 3.6.4, which might be too greenish, by adding 
shades or
> > graphic elements, but we should not give up our green colour 
(which has
> > a meaning, as green is the colour of freedom in western culture). 
Sorry
> > for being probably too negative, because I am a volunteer and I 
know
> > myself what it means when your volunteer work is criticized, but 
I see
> > this whiteish look as a major issue (and a huge step backwards).
> 
> I have to disagree with you there.
> Our original splash was predominantly white, and there were no 
complaints
> about it then. When the idea of a green splash was brought up, a 
sizeable
> percentage of our Google+ commenters argued against it:
> "please not green!" - Alberto
> 
Sanchez 82324>, +1'd by Fran S, Alessandro Roncone, Jean-Baptiste Sauvage
> "If one of the green ones is chosen, please add an "anti-headache 
mode"
> which can turn it into greyscale colours." - Robin Jacobs
> "I know about the greenish of LibreOffice, but at least a little 
decrease
> of saturation could lead to a less strident ui on those DE that by 
default
> are built around blue, to make an example.
> Basically, I really appreciate this design. My point was only 
related to
> the color." - Alessandro Roncone
> White is also the predominant color in the Office 2010 splash 
screen, the
> Apache OpenOffice splash, this Office 2013
> 
splash 
464&tbm=isch&tbnid=DwPafHo3TG3iJM:&imgrefurl=http://arstechnica.com/informat
> ion-technology/2012/07/office-2013-microsofts-bid-to-win-the-
future/&docid=2
> mKhmJ_z8WIUaM&imgurl=http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-
content/uploads/2012/07/o
> 2013-install-
launch-640x360.png&w=639&h=359&ei=Fo0FUb66J-2b1AWkuIG4Cg&zoom=1
> 
&ved=1t:3588,r:5,s:0,i:96&iact=rc&dur=7&sig=117166895286223770585&page=1&tbn
> h=168&tbnw=300&start=0&ndsp=6&tx=72&ty=67>, and almost all of 
Apple's box
> designs.
> 
> I'm just trying to point out that the situation is not so clear-
cut, and
> there are advantages to using white.
> 
> Also, the new proposal isn't completely devoid of green. Do you 
think
> adding a green dog ear as in Mateus's proposal would help?
-- 
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Business Management & Research
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Mirek M.]

Guide for testing the artwork on Linux:
Rename splash.png from the package as intro.png and place it along with
sofficerc, backing_left.png, backing_space.png, and backing_right.png into
your home folder. Then open the Terminal and write the following:
sudo cp intro.png /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/
sudo cp sofficerc /etc/libreoffice/
sudo cp backing_left.png /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/shell/
sudo cp backing_space.png /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/shell/
sudo cp backing_right.png /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/shell/

To answer Italo:
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote:

> On 1/27/13 7:25 PM, Mirek M. wrote:
>
> > Again, I'd encourage you to try it out before judging.
> > If you're still firmly opposed to it, we can revert back to the 3.6
> > branding.
>
> Everything is white, nothing is green. Sorry, I do not like it at all. I
> am not a design expert but a decent communication expert, and we have
> already had a huge issue in the past when OOo switched from something
> colourful to something completely white, and many users complained in a
> rather strong way (and I was one of the most vocal). We should improve
> the design of 3.6.4, which might be too greenish, by adding shades or
> graphic elements, but we should not give up our green colour (which has
> a meaning, as green is the colour of freedom in western culture). Sorry
> for being probably too negative, because I am a volunteer and I know
> myself what it means when your volunteer work is criticized, but I see
> this whiteish look as a major issue (and a huge step backwards).


I have to disagree with you there.
Our original splash was predominantly white, and there were no complaints
about it then. When the idea of a green splash was brought up, a sizeable
percentage of our Google+ commenters argued against it:
"please not green!" - Alberto
Sanchez,
+1'd by Fran S, Alessandro Roncone, Jean-Baptiste Sauvage
"If one of the green ones is chosen, please add an "anti-headache mode"
which can turn it into greyscale colours." - Robin Jacobs
"I know about the greenish of LibreOffice, but at least a little decrease
of saturation could lead to a less strident ui on those DE that by default
are built around blue, to make an example.
Basically, I really appreciate this design. My point was only related to
the color." - Alessandro Roncone
White is also the predominant color in the Office 2010 splash screen, the
Apache OpenOffice splash, this Office 2013
splash,
and almost all of Apple's box designs.

I'm just trying to point out that the situation is not so clear-cut, and
there are advantages to using white.

Also, the new proposal isn't completely devoid of green. Do you think
adding a green dog ear as in Mateus's proposal would help?

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi Mirek,
On 27/01/2013 20:04, Mirek M. wrote:
> @Charles: Good to hear that you're happier with the tweaked version.
> 
> @Sophie: As I said, I could contact Mateus and incorporate his dog ear and
> green progress indicator designs.
> 
> It sounds as if both of you only looked at the elements in an image viewer.
> Please try them in action -- they really do look good, and, what's more,
> they feel light (which is good, as it makes the suite feel a bit less
> bloated). :)

I must admit that I don't tried them in situation, but most of the
people commenting on your work will do the same as me (but I'll test it
tomorrow). This is another discussion so I won't clutter this one, but
will come back to it when this issue is closed, you need better
ways/tools to reflect and to be able to communicate on your work.
Kind regards
Sophie
-- 
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Tel:+33683901545
Membership & Certification Committee Member - Co-founder
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Italo Vignoli]

On 1/27/13 7:25 PM, Mirek M. wrote:

> Again, I'd encourage you to try it out before judging.
> If you're still firmly opposed to it, we can revert back to the 3.6
> branding.

Everything is white, nothing is green. Sorry, I do not like it at all. I
am not a design expert but a decent communication expert, and we have
already had a huge issue in the past when OOo switched from something
colourful to something completely white, and many users complained in a
rather strong way (and I was one of the most vocal). We should improve
the design of 3.6.4, which might be too greenish, by adding shades or
graphic elements, but we should not give up our green colour (which has
a meaning, as green is the colour of freedom in western culture). Sorry
for being probably too negative, because I am a volunteer and I know
myself what it means when your volunteer work is criticized, but I see
this whiteish look as a major issue (and a huge step backwards).

-- 
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mob +39.348.5653829 - VoIP 5316...@messagenet.it
skype italovignoli - gtalk italo.vign...@gmail.com

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Mirek M.]

@Charles: Good to hear that you're happier with the tweaked version.

@Sophie: As I said, I could contact Mateus and incorporate his dog ear and
green progress indicator designs.

It sounds as if both of you only looked at the elements in an image viewer.
Please try them in action -- they really do look good, and, what's more,
they feel light (which is good, as it makes the suite feel a bit less
bloated). :)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi Mirek, all,
On 27/01/2013 19:25, Mirek M. wrote:
> Hi Charles, Italo,
> The links to the proposed artwork are here:
> * TDF artwork 
> * Community artwork without ® 
> * Community artwork with ® 
> * sofficerc 
> * SVG sources 
> 
> Please try it out before making a judgement.

Thanks a lot for the links. I didn't participate to the communication on
your work, I usually forward everything to the FR list, but localization
has took all my time.

I agree with Italo and Charles that the design is finally less than a
refresh, but hey guys, we all make bugs :)
So to all who participated, don't be disappointed, be like all of us
when we find that finally our hard work has some imperfection that makes
it difficult to accept for others (and be sure that it happens to all of
us more than one time), take a breath and go on!

Where to go from here? Do we cancel the refresh (Pawel, your proposal is
not possible because of feature and l10n freeze), do you think there is
another one that will fit more than the proposed one? (I'm still
struggling with l10n issues so don't have time to look at your links).
Mirek, what would be your position on this?
And again to all, thanks a lot for your work on the design of our
product and project.

Kind regards
Sophie
-- 
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Tel:+33683901545
Membership & Certification Committee Member - Co-founder
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Mirek,

I have taken a look at the elements below. I do find indeed some 
improvements with respect to the finition, but I'm still profoundly 
worried.

See my other comments inline.

Le 27.01.2013 19:25, Mirek M. a écrit :

Hi Charles, Italo,
The links to the proposed artwork are here:
* TDF artwork 
* Community artwork without ® 

* Community artwork with ® 


* sofficerc 
* SVG sources 

Please try it out before making a judgement.

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Charles-H. Schulz <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

Well. This mail is a bit difficult. I took a look at the design. It 
IS a

non standard logo on a white background.
There are two major issues.
* the logo is NOT the standard logo. You're using an old one from 
2010.



The logo in the proposal comes straight from
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding, where it's 
listed

as a valid option.

That said, we opted for a lighter, if a bit less standard, version of 
the

logo, as seen in Mateus's proposal.





* I don't have much to say for the startscreen, but honestly... the
splashscreen is something I could have done myself and I'm a 
profound idiot
when it comes to design. This looks bad, unfinished, and I obviously 
do not
have the documented rationale for your choice, but it's a bit like 
any

other choice would have been better.



A complex design doesn't necessary mean a good design. Here, simple 
tends

to be better.
And if you look, that's the design ethos of most successful software
companies.
To give examples -- look at Microsoft Word's new splash

screen
.
And while iWork doesn't have a splash, it does have a

box--
and the front is occupied solely by the logo.

On our social sites, the feedback seems mostly positive.


Indeed, and that feels a bit reassuring.I think I understand what you 
were trying to achieve and I completely agree that a complex design is 
not necessarily a good design. But there might be a disconnect between 
the intellectual approach, the concept if you will, and the final 
result.
My point is this : you can see some contemporary artwork, being 
explained what's the reasonning behind them, even fully enjoy the 
reasonning behind it, and it still sucks. I think we might be in this 
situation :-)


I fundamentally believe we're heading in the wrong direction with this 
splashscreen although the files make it look a tad better than the 
original proposal.





Again, I'd encourage you to try it out before judging.
If you're still firmly opposed to it, we can revert back to the 3.6
branding.


I'll be honest with you, I don't know what we should do. Let me get 
back to you asap.


Thanks a lot for your patience and your work.

Charles.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Mirek M.]

Another option is to ask for Mateus's license statement and incorporate
some elements from his design like the dog ear or the green progress
indicator into Maxim's. The two proposals fit well together, and I feel
this decision would be fair to both Mateus and Maxim.

Please try out the current design and then e-mail me ASAP if I should ask
Mateus for a license statement as well. It'd be good to have the final
designs today, tomorrow latest.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Mirek M.]

Hi Charles, Italo,
The links to the proposed artwork are here:
* TDF artwork 
* Community artwork without ® 
* Community artwork with ® 
* sofficerc 
* SVG sources 

Please try it out before making a judgement.

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Charles-H. Schulz <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Well. This mail is a bit difficult. I took a look at the design. It IS a
> non standard logo on a white background.
> There are two major issues.
> * the logo is NOT the standard logo. You're using an old one from 2010.


The logo in the proposal comes straight from
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding, where it's listed
as a valid option.

That said, we opted for a lighter, if a bit less standard, version of the
logo, as seen in Mateus's proposal.

>

* I don't have much to say for the startscreen, but honestly... the
> splashscreen is something I could have done myself and I'm a profound idiot
> when it comes to design. This looks bad, unfinished, and I obviously do not
> have the documented rationale for your choice, but it's a bit like any
> other choice would have been better.


A complex design doesn't necessary mean a good design. Here, simple tends
to be better.
And if you look, that's the design ethos of most successful software
companies.
To give examples -- look at Microsoft Word's new splash
screen
.
And while iWork doesn't have a splash, it does have a
box--
and the front is occupied solely by the logo.

On our social sites, the feedback seems mostly positive.

>

I am very worried about this choice (again, I'm constraining my comment to
> the splashscreen), I'm worried for our image, I'm worried for the
> impression millions of people are going to get every time they'll start
> LibreOffice.
>
> I would like to thank you all for your contributions, I know it's not easy
> and we all have lives outside here, but somebody must have gotten really
> tired or something.
>
> I don't even want to suggest what to do at this point, what process to
> follow, I don't want to choose for the team as it would be disrepectful
> (and this mail is disrespectful enough already) but I can't shut up on that
> one. Please reconsider or do something. It's terrible.
>

Again, I'd encourage you to try it out before judging.
If you're still firmly opposed to it, we can revert back to the 3.6
branding.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Italo Vignoli]

On 1/27/13 5:40 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

> I am very worried about this choice (again, I'm constraining my comment
> to the splashscreen), I'm worried for our image, I'm worried for the
> impression millions of people are going to get every time they'll start
> LibreOffice.

I am not going to add my comments, but I completely agree with Charles.

> I don't even want to suggest what to do at this point, what process to
> follow, I don't want to choose for the team as it would be disrepectful
> (and this mail is disrespectful enough already) but I can't shut up on
> that one. Please reconsider or do something. It's terrible.

+1 (should I say +100 ?)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Pawel Konefal]

Welcome again,

I want also suggest another option of rebranding.
We can use our 3.6.4 design with only very small change (slightly changed
colors/borders) and give users an option to CHANGE DEFAULT GREEN COLOR (eg.
from Windows or ready palette) - it could be a window after first app start
with choosing color and info about Personas feature. I think it will be
very good composition with Personas feature, but it has to be made by our
great developers.

What do you think?

Cheers,
Paweł

2013/1/27 Charles-H. Schulz 

> Le 27.01.2013 18:42, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol a écrit :
>
>  Am 27.01.2013 17:40, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:
>>
>>> Well. This mail is a bit difficult.
>>>
>>
>> Even if it is a BoD member's voice. And this is a ponderous voice.
>>
>
>
> It's even more difficult in my position. I realize I'm going to upset a
> dozen people here at least. But  I feel it is my duty not to shut up...
>
> Best,
> Charles.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le 27.01.2013 18:42, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol a écrit :

Am 27.01.2013 17:40, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:

Well. This mail is a bit difficult.


Even if it is a BoD member's voice. And this is a ponderous voice.



It's even more difficult in my position. I realize I'm going to upset a 
dozen people here at least. But  I feel it is my duty not to shut up...


Best,
Charles.



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[klaus-jürgen weghorn ol]

Am 27.01.2013 17:40, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:

Well. This mail is a bit difficult.


Even if it is a BoD member's voice. And this is a ponderous voice.

--
Grüße
k-j

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Well. This mail is a bit difficult. I took a look at the design. It IS 
a non standard logo on a white background.

There are two major issues.
* the logo is NOT the standard logo. You're using an old one from 2010.
* I don't have much to say for the startscreen, but honestly... the 
splashscreen is something I could have done myself and I'm a profound 
idiot when it comes to design. This looks bad, unfinished, and I 
obviously do not have the documented rationale for your choice, but it's 
a bit like any other choice would have been better.


I am very worried about this choice (again, I'm constraining my comment 
to the splashscreen), I'm worried for our image, I'm worried for the 
impression millions of people are going to get every time they'll start 
LibreOffice.


I would like to thank you all for your contributions, I know it's not 
easy and we all have lives outside here, but somebody must have gotten 
really tired or something.


I don't even want to suggest what to do at this point, what process to 
follow, I don't want to choose for the team as it would be disrepectful 
(and this mail is disrespectful enough already) but I can't shut up on 
that one. Please reconsider or do something. It's terrible.


Thanks,

Charles.

Le 27.01.2013 15:00, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

Hello Mirek,

Cool. Do you have a pointer to the winner's design? All I saw was a
non standard logo on a white background

Best,

Charles.


"Mirek M."  a écrit :


I'm sure you're all wondering what branding proposal was chosen.
We went for Maxim Darák's proposal, with Mateus Machado Luna coming 
in

a
close second.
Lots of thanks for everyone who participated! :)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Pawel Konefal]

Mirek,

I think Darak's designs are not good idea considering that his project is
like withdrawal comparing to previous 3.6 design (very basic and not good
looking for me). We should use more green color (like on websites etc.) -
it is more "eye friendly" and some users, I think, identifies LibreOffice
with this color. I would choose Mateus's Clear_Green_Pref.png, but it's
only my opinion.

Greetings.
Paweł

2013/1/27 Charles-H. Schulz 

> Hello Mirek,
>
> Cool. Do you have a pointer to the winner's design? All I saw was a non
> standard logo on a white background
>
> Best,
>
> Charles.
>
>
> "Mirek M."  a écrit :
>
> >I'm sure you're all wondering what branding proposal was chosen.
> >We went for Maxim Darák's proposal, with Mateus Machado Luna coming in
> >a
> >close second.
> >Lots of thanks for everyone who participated! :)
> >
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Mirek,

Cool. Do you have a pointer to the winner's design? All I saw was a non 
standard logo on a white background

Best,

Charles.


"Mirek M."  a écrit :

>I'm sure you're all wondering what branding proposal was chosen.
>We went for Maxim Darák's proposal, with Mateus Machado Luna coming in
>a
>close second.
>Lots of thanks for everyone who participated! :)
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[klaus-jürgen weghorn ol]

Am 27.01.2013 00:39, schrieb Mirek M.:

I'm sure you're all wondering what branding proposal was chosen.
We went for Maxim Darák's proposal, with Mateus Machado Luna coming in a
close second.
Lots of thanks for everyone who participated! :)


Congratulations to the winning proposal.

You should announce it on marketing, website and documentation ml (and 
maybe other mls) as soon as possible.


This decision should lead in near time to proposals for marketing, 
website and documentation team. And this should be done by the design team.


And near time is about two or three weeks.

I personally can't imagine for now how to put it on and integrate it in 
marketing material. So I want to invide you to do some proposals.


But this should be another thread.



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k-j

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[libreoffice-design] Rebranding result

[Mirek M.]

I'm sure you're all wondering what branding proposal was chosen.
We went for Maxim Darák's proposal, with Mateus Machado Luna coming in a
close second.
Lots of thanks for everyone who participated! :)

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