Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Cor Nouws]

Bastián Díaz wrote on 11-11-15 23:56:
>> But the Styles category in the Property panel has one advantage: it is
>> drop-down and easier to see the different >Styles (although it
>> constantly crashes in my install of 5.0).
>>
> 
> The latter is quite true since the last update. Does anyone know if it
> is a known bug?
> Several elements of the sidebar freeze or crash.

For styles we have
 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94495
(fixed in 5.0.3)

And a more generic query:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?f1=short_desc=short_desc_top=OR_id=572493=LibreOffice_format=advanced_desc=side%20bar%20crash_desc_type=allwordssubstr


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Yousuf 'Jay' Philips]

Hi Bastian,

On 10/18/2015 06:59 AM, Bastián Díaz wrote:

Hello,

Reviewing future changes in LO 5.1, I learned that a menu styles are
included. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/f/fa/Styles-menu.png


Yes that is one of my changes in 5.1 and it contains a static list a 
basic paragraph and character styles to help promote the use/awareness 
of styles.



It seems fantastic that decision, but revives my doubts about the
inclusion some time ago of a dropdown menu of basic styles in the
properties tab on the sidebar. What is its purpose or use cases?


The style drop down found in the formatting toolbar was added to the 
properties tab of the sidebar in writer in 5.0. The drop down lists 
applied styles in a document and is important for users who prefer to 
use the sidebar over the contextual toolbars.



I in most cases I turn to tab styles, and in the case of using the
dropdown menu, go to "more styles" recursively. As an element in the
toolbar seemed interesting and useful, but now I do not see it
necessary. If a adds style menu, I see this redundant feature.


For a toolbar user, the entire properties tab of the sidebar would be 
redundant and not just the style drop down menu. For a sidebar user, the 
addition of the style drop down allows them to finally hide the 
formatting and other contextual toolbars without any problems.



A user can open styles from a keyboard shortcut, go to the tab styles
and use menu styles. For me the choice of styles in the property tabs is
unnecessary, in addition to providing a poor experience.


Keyboard shortcuts, styles & formatting, and the new Styles menu are 
features focused on advanced users. For regular users, the style drop 
down menu in the toolbar or sidebar would be their primary activation of 
styles.



You could consider deleting to 5.1?


It is something that will be staying in the properties tab.

Regards,
Yousuf 'Jay' Philips

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Bastián Díaz]

El 11-11-2015 07:17, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips escribió:




You could consider deleting to 5.1?


It is something that will be staying in the properties tab.



It seems that with those words, does not give rise to any discussion.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

>
> El 10-11-2015 12:41, Pedro Rosmaninho escribió:
>
> If you don't like it, fine. If other people prefer it and actually
>> contribute based on their preferences then their opinion counts as much as
>> your if you're a contributor.
>>
>>
> Please we contribute to the discussion. If you read my arguments, I know
> beyond liking or not liking that option.
>
> I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
>>> the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar >>like google-docs.
>>>
>>
> ​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
>> give strong preference to the Sidebar >because it uses space in my 16:9
>> displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
>> your >way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
>> other options.​
>>
>
> Again, if you read my arguments, you would know that:
>
> - I also strongly support the sidebar, however, it does not seem desirable
> to have "duplicate functions" for the styles in Writer documents.
> Therefore, I am in favor of improving the panel "Styles and Formatting"
> and not additionally add a dropdown menu to apply styles in the properties
> panel. (Redundant also considering adding a menu of styles in version 5.1).
>
> - I never mention use many toolbars, on the contrary I propose a single
> tool bar, similar to that used in google-docs. In that context a dropdown
> menu would be useful. The other tools appear depending on the context of
> use in the sidebar.
>
> - The current functions of styles in the properties panel seem limited. If
> you use styles actively, always you end up using the panel "Styles and
> Formatting". Should continue developing, we have the same functions in two
> different sections of the sidebar (property panel and panel styles and
> formatting), which to me seems inconvenient.
> Should continue developing, we have the same functions in two different
> sections of the sidebar (property panel and styles and formatting panel),
> which to me seems inconvenient.
>
> See:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Styles-menu.png
>
> @Pedro What do you think about that?
>
>
> ​It seems that our opinions match strongly except on this matter. For me
the optimal default UI of LO would be one where the main modules have just
one single toolbar and everything else located in the Sidebar. This is
easily accomplishable in Writer already. Impress is already there! :)
Calc needs a bit more work.

As for the Styles Menu I think it improves the flexibility of LO allowing
people to use the menu instead​. Optimal for power users.

After reading your proposal further down, I must say I agree with you.
There's already Styles and Formatting and that tab of the Sidebar should be
improved.
But the Styles category in the Property panel has one advantage: it is
drop-down and easier to see the different Styles (although it constantly
crashes in my install of 5.0).

_

My question is:
*Why not add the style dropdown menu in the panel of styles and formatting?*

proposal:
- The dropdown menu can be positioned at the top or bottom of styles and
formatting panel.
- The drop-down menu will be sensitive categories (document styles, applied
styles, custom styles, etc.)
- (based on mockups) In a single panel (stack view?) Are displayed, the
paragraph and character styles.

In practice it would become very practical: a) at a glance would have
available all paragraph and character styles. b) through the dropdown menu,
based on categories would faster selection or specific styles.

This approach maintains differentiated the properties panel (direct
formatting) and panel styles and formatting.


I love this idea.
The Styles and Formatting panel in the Sidebar looks and behaves very
differently from the rest of the panels. The icons for the different
categories in the Tango icon set also don't help.

I would organize those categories as the categories are organized in the
Properties tab converting the current UI to dropdown menus as in the
Properties for the different categories.
This would make the UX similar between the Properties panel and Styles and
Formatting panel.

As for what Yousuf wrote, I think he means that this discussion won't give
results for 5.1 because there's a lot of other stuff being worked on.
This item should definitely be included for 5.2.

For more people to use the Styles and Formatting the UI must be clearer and
similar to the Properties panel.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Bastián Díaz  wrote:

> El 11-11-2015 07:17, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips escribió:
>
>
>> You could consider deleting to 5.1?
>>>
>>
>> It is something that will be staying in the properties tab.
>>
>>
> It seems that with those words, does not give rise to any discussion.
>
>
> ---
> Bastián Dïaz
> https://telegram.me/diazbastian
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: 

Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

If you don't like it, fine. If other people prefer it and actually
contribute based on their preferences then their opinion counts as much as
your if you're a contributor.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho 
wrote:

>
>>
>> I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
>> the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.
>>
>>>
>>>
> ​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
> give strong preference to the Sidebar because it uses space in my 16:9
> displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
> your way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
> other options.​
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Bastián Díaz]

El 10-11-2015 11:04, Cor Nouws escribió:


If you talk redundancy, that could also be an argument to not at all
have "Apply style" on the properties panel?


Sure. The idea is to improve the panel of styles and formatting, and not 
add another way to apply styles to the properties panel - which seems to 
have - another goal.
So for me, it would be better to remove "Applying Styles" on the 
properties panel.


IMO the drop down "Apply Style" in the Formatting tool bar already is 
great.


I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in 
the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.



That is part of the discussion: as we do want to improve the use of
styles, then offer them handsome in the Side Bar. Hence they appeared 
on

the panel Properties in the first place.


I understand, but I think is not the best approach.

I see little relation - but that may change if I understand the idea 
better.


I can hardly explain it better, but work is closely related as the 
selection in slide pane in Impress.
No visual difference when you select and apply a style, that comes to 
confuse and really see if a style is applied. It's just a small way of 
improvement.


Cheers

---
Bastián Dïaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Bastián Díaz]

@Pedro

El 10-11-2015 12:41, Pedro Rosmaninho escribió:


If you don't like it, fine. If other people prefer it and actually
contribute based on their preferences then their opinion counts as much 
as

your if you're a contributor.



Please we contribute to the discussion. If you read my arguments, I know 
beyond liking or not liking that option.


I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not 
in the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar >>like google-docs.


​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the 
Sidebar. I give strong preference to the Sidebar >because it uses space 
in my 16:9 displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't 
presume that your >way is the best just because you use more and then 
want to remove all other options.​


Again, if you read my arguments, you would know that:

- I also strongly support the sidebar, however, it does not seem 
desirable to have "duplicate functions" for the styles in Writer 
documents.
Therefore, I am in favor of improving the panel "Styles and Formatting" 
and not additionally add a dropdown menu to apply styles in the 
properties panel. (Redundant also considering adding a menu of styles in 
version 5.1).


- I never mention use many toolbars, on the contrary I propose a single 
tool bar, similar to that used in google-docs. In that context a 
dropdown menu would be useful. The other tools appear depending on the 
context of use in the sidebar.


- The current functions of styles in the properties panel seem limited. 
If you use styles actively, always you end up using the panel "Styles 
and Formatting". Should continue developing, we have the same functions 
in two different sections of the sidebar (property panel and panel 
styles and formatting), which to me seems inconvenient.
Should continue developing, we have the same functions in two different 
sections of the sidebar (property panel and styles and formatting 
panel), which to me seems inconvenient.


See:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Styles-menu.png

@Pedro What do you think about that?

Cheers
---
Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

>
>
>
> I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
> the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.
>
>>
>>
​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
give strong preference to the Sidebar because it uses space in my 16:9
displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
your way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
other options.​

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Bastián, Pedro, *,

I like this discussion :)

Bastián Díaz wrote on 10-11-15 17:43:

> - I also strongly support the sidebar, however, it does not seem
> desirable to have "duplicate functions" for the styles in Writer documents.

So since people that know the joyful power of styles do not want to keep
that for themselves, the idea was born to make styles more prominently
visible in the Side Bar.
I agree that the added drop down in the panel Properties is semi
optimal. Hence I came with a proposal to improve that.
And indeed, that might end up in making the current Styles and
Formatting (S) in the side bare redundant :)
I think in my trial there are also neat advantages that the current S
does not offer.
So either we improve current style dropdown in panel Properties
considerably, maybe ending up removing S panel, or the other way round..
In any case: the better and more visible the use of styles, the more I
applaud the solution :)

Cheers - Cor


-- 
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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Joel Madero]

Hi All,l


> So either we improve current style dropdown in panel Properties
> considerably, maybe ending up removing S panel, or the other way round..
> In any case: the better and more visible the use of styles, the more I
> applaud the solution :)
>

Here here! I love the discussion and think that it should focus on *exactly*
this point. The question should be both "how do we efficiently let current
'power users' use styles" *and* "how do we inform current users about the
power of styles - most notably, by making it as visible as possible."

Keep up the great work. Thanks a million for all of your
dedication/thoughtful suggestions.


Best,
Joel



-- 
*Joel Madero*
LibreOffice QA Volunteer
jmadero@gmail.com

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Steve Edmonds]

On 2015-11-11 04:40, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:



I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.




​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
give strong preference to the Sidebar because it uses space in my 16:9
displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
your way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
other options.​

I am the opposite, I never use the side bar in Writer, it uses up too 
much width. The work I do requires 2 or 3 open documents side by side 
(dual monitors doesn't work) and they won't fit with a side bar. I also 
use styles extensively and need access without side bar.

Steve


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Bastián Díaz]

El 10-11-2015 16:25, Joel Madero escribió:


Hi All,l


So either we improve current style dropdown in panel Properties
considerably, maybe ending up removing S panel, or the other way 
round..

In any case: the better and more visible the use of styles, the more I
applaud the solution :)


Here here! I love the discussion and think that it should focus on 
exactly this point. The question should be both "how do we efficiently 
let current 'power users' use styles" AND "how do we inform current 
users about the power of styles - most notably, by making it as visible 
as possible."


Keep up the great work. Thanks a million for all of your 
dedication/thoughtful suggestions.


Best,
Joel



I was coming to a similar conclusion.

I love the styles and formatting. I use it everyday and I would like the 
default panel in the sidebar (direct formatting could go in the toolbar, 
along with its own panel).


My question is:
Why not add the style dropdown menu in the panel of styles and 
formatting?


proposal:
- The dropdown menu can be positioned at the top or bottom of styles and 
formatting panel.
- The drop-down menu will be sensitive categories (document styles, 
applied styles, custom styles, etc.)
- (based on mockups) In a single panel (stack view?) Are displayed, the 
paragraph and character styles.


In practice it would become very practical: a) at a glance would have 
available all paragraph and character styles. b) through the dropdown 
menu, based on categories would faster selection or specific styles.


Use Case:
An advanced user to create specific styles for a document beforehand, 
creating a template or a particular document. All paragraph and 
character styles are available at a glance, easy to customize or create 
styles for your document. Begin to write your document, you will have a 
quick way to apply styles via the dropdown menu. As the user created 
their styles of early, can Select the category "Custom Styles" and only 
see the styles created for that document. At the same time, the user 
have the other visible styles should create new or modify them.


This approach maintains differentiated the properties panel (direct 
formatting) and panel styles and formatting.


Cheers
---
Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Steve Edmonds]

On 2015-11-11 09:27, Bastián Díaz wrote:

El 10-11-2015 16:25, Joel Madero escribió:


Hi All,l


So either we improve current style dropdown in panel Properties
considerably, maybe ending up removing S panel, or the other way 
round..

In any case: the better and more visible the use of styles, the more I
applaud the solution :)


Here here! I love the discussion and think that it should focus on 
exactly this point. The question should be both "how do we 
efficiently let current 'power users' use styles" AND "how do we 
inform current users about the power of styles - most notably, by 
making it as visible as possible."


Keep up the great work. Thanks a million for all of your 
dedication/thoughtful suggestions.


Best,
Joel



I was coming to a similar conclusion.

I love the styles and formatting. I use it everyday and I would like 
the default panel in the sidebar (direct formatting could go in the 
toolbar, along with its own panel).


My question is:
Why not add the style dropdown menu in the panel of styles and 
formatting?


proposal:
- The dropdown menu can be positioned at the top or bottom of styles 
and formatting panel.
- The drop-down menu will be sensitive categories (document styles, 
applied styles, custom styles, etc.)
- (based on mockups) In a single panel (stack view?) Are displayed, 
the paragraph and character styles.


In practice it would become very practical: a) at a glance would have 
available all paragraph and character styles. b) through the dropdown 
menu, based on categories would faster selection or specific styles.


Use Case:
An advanced user to create specific styles for a document beforehand, 
creating a template or a particular document. All paragraph and 
character styles are available at a glance, easy to customize or 
create styles for your document. Begin to write your document, you 
will have a quick way to apply styles via the dropdown menu. As the 
user created their styles of early, can Select the category "Custom 
Styles" and only see the styles created for that document. At the same 
time, the user have the other visible styles should create new or 
modify them.


This approach maintains differentiated the properties panel (direct 
formatting) and panel styles and formatting.


Cheers
---
Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian

As long as you don't remove it from the tool bar. The drop down holds 
the style used in re-styling a document and it is very quick to access 
during document processing, 2 clicks. In my use case I can't fit the 
side bar and having the panel open all the time in 3 documents 
obliterates the text I am trying to work on.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Joel Madero]

>
>
>>
>> As long as you don't remove it from the tool bar. The drop down holds the
> style used in re-styling a document and it is very quick to access during
> document processing, 2 clicks. In my use case I can't fit the side bar and
> having the panel open all the time in 3 documents obliterates the text I am
> trying to work on.


Honestly - we can't cover every single corner caseThe UX team is
responsible for thinking about the general needs of our users, corner cases
(not saying yours definitely is) should be given the *option* to include
things but we shouldn't force a million defaults on everyone just because
certain users use LibreOffice in a very specific case (such as having three
documents side by side open at a time)

That being said, I leave this to the design/UX team to figure out.

Best,
Joel


-- 
*Joel Madero*
LibreOffice QA Volunteer
jmadero@gmail.com

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Bastián Díaz]

El 10-11-2015 20:06, Joel Madero escribió:

As long as you don't remove it from the tool bar. The drop down holds 
the style used in re-styling a document >>and it is very quick to 
access during document processing, 2 clicks. In my use case I can't 
fit the side bar and >>having the panel open all the time in 3 
documents obliterates the text I am trying to work on.



Honestly - we can't cover every single corner caseThe UX team is
responsible for thinking about the general needs of our users, corner 
cases
(not saying yours definitely is) should be given the *option* to 
include
things but we shouldn't force a million defaults on everyone just 
because
certain users use LibreOffice in a very specific case (such as having 
three

documents side by side open at a time)

That being said, I leave this to the design/UX team to figure out.



@steve

I agree with Joel, I think the design team must choose a way to work 
with LO. Anyway, there's always space for personalization, and your 
case, you can disable the sidebar and customize toolbars.


I think the current way of LibreOffice is the sidebar. We must take into 
account that most of the monitors used by the users have a 16: 9 
ratioalso 3 major OS can use "workspaces" or other form of multitasking.



I leave here the image of the mockup to which I referred: 
https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=115020


Cheers

---
Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian


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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Bastián, all,

Bastián Díaz wrote on 18-10-15 16:14:
> El 18-10-2015 05:28, Cor Nouws escribió:
>> Incidentally I thought about this control this morning (we looked at it
>> at a NL_LibreOffice meeting yesterday).
>> I like the current improvement and think it can be extended, so that in
>> the side bar you can chose (at least):
>> - show (thus edit) properties of style or text as displayed.
>> and (maybe):
>> - allow choosing paragraph or character styles (or all styles) with the
>> little icons, as in the styles and formatting panel..
>> and when we are that far ... also choose between style properties and
>> style list...
>>
> 
> It looks very interesting, but again I think you try to add a new way of
> "apply styles". So I think I would support redundant and improve the
> current tab of styles and formatting on the sidebar.

If you talk redundancy, that could also be an argument to not at all
have "Apply style" on the properties panel?

> On the other hand, I do not dismiss the idea. You can use improved
> drop-down menu in the toolbar (perhaps a new toolbar styles) or include
> it in a mad idea of single toolbar, google docs-style.

IMO the drop down "Apply Style" in the Formatting tool bar already is great.

>> Of course then we need more vertical space (extra controls above the
>> styles drop down, and a separator below + an indicator showing: edit
>> style properties / edit text (direct) formatting or somesuch.
>>
>> Then the whole panel could maybe renamed from
>> "- Properties" to "- Formatting",
>> the upper sub panel "- Styles" and the next one (below a new 'separator'
>> "- Properties".
> 
> It seems that mine may be a false impression, but with the use of IT
> sidebar, relate the "Properties" tab with "direct formatting" contrary
> to the tabs "Styles and Formatting" with ... styles.
> I would not want it to break.

That is part of the discussion: as we do want to improve the use of
styles, then offer them handsome in the Side Bar. Hence they appeared on
the panel Properties in the first place.

>> This would improve working with styles. You see immediately what you're
>> changing.
> 
> Right, but the sidebar has a different workflow. Not always visible and
> also the same tab, the contents of the sidebar can be hidden. For these
> cases kept the formatting toolbar, but it is better to renew the sidebar.
> 
> See: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94427

I see little relation - but that may change if I understand the idea better.

>> (Additional notes
>> - the only reason I have a toolbar active, is that I can see/use the
>> "Apply style" list.
> 
> ditto. If that's your approach, you might want an improvement in the
> toolbar. docs google toolbar for LibreOffice.
> 
>> - would be great if that control in side bar could (eventually) also be
>> accessed with Ctrl+F11. )
>>
>> Ideas?
>  
> [...]

Cheers - Cor


-- 
Cor Nouws
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- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Bastián Díaz wrote on 18-10-15 04:59:
> It seems fantastic that decision, but revives my doubts about the
> inclusion some time ago of a dropdown menu of basic styles in the
> properties tab on the sidebar. What is its purpose or use cases?

Incidentally I thought about this control this morning (we looked at it
at a NL_LibreOffice meeting yesterday).
I like the current improvement and think it can be extended, so that in
the side bar you can chose (at least):
- show (thus edit) properties of style or text as displayed.
and (maybe):
- allow choosing paragraph or character styles (or all styles) with the
little icons, as in the styles and formatting panel..
and when we are that far ... also choose between style properties and
style list...

Of course then we need more vertical space (extra controls above the
styles drop down, and a separator below + an indicator showing: edit
style properties / edit text (direct) formatting or somesuch.

Then the whole panel could maybe renamed from
"- Properties" to "- Formatting",
the upper sub panel "- Styles" and the next one (below a new 'separator'
"- Properties".

This would improve working with styles. You see immediately what you're
changing.

(Additional notes
- the only reason I have a toolbar active, is that I can see/use the
"Apply style" list.
- would be great if that control in side bar could (eventually) also be
accessed with Ctrl+F11. )

Ideas?

Cheers - Cor

NB Thanks for asking Bastián, was  on my mind already a long time that I
wanted to work on clearer ideas for this subject. Now thanks to the
meeting yesterday and your question it just happened :)
PS I know there is an issue for this. But I'm a sort of finishing stuff
before a week holiday. So leave the idea here.)


-- 
Cor Nouws
GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6
- vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org
- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote on 18-10-15 11:13:
> Cor Nouws wrote on 18-10-15 10:28:
> 
>> I like the current improvement and think it can be extended,...
> 
> I've added a rough mockup here
>  
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18_dRi2x5e9VHILAJ7GKFCfbgidf5MHGtRuOsnGBt5Ao/edit#
> (sorry if I'd better used another place.)

Ah, and an issue could be added here..
  https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90646


-- 
Cor Nouws
GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6
- vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org
- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Bastián Díaz]

El 18-10-2015 05:28, Cor Nouws escribió:


Hi all,

Incidentally I thought about this control this morning (we looked at it
at a NL_LibreOffice meeting yesterday).
I like the current improvement and think it can be extended, so that in
the side bar you can chose (at least):
- show (thus edit) properties of style or text as displayed.
and (maybe):
- allow choosing paragraph or character styles (or all styles) with the
little icons, as in the styles and formatting panel..
and when we are that far ... also choose between style properties and
style list...



It looks very interesting, but again I think you try to add a new way of 
"apply styles". So I think I would support redundant and improve the 
current tab of styles and formatting on the sidebar.


On the other hand, I do not dismiss the idea. You can use improved 
drop-down menu in the toolbar (perhaps a new toolbar styles) or include 
it in a mad idea of single toolbar, google docs-style.



Of course then we need more vertical space (extra controls above the
styles drop down, and a separator below + an indicator showing: edit
style properties / edit text (direct) formatting or somesuch.

Then the whole panel could maybe renamed from
"- Properties" to "- Formatting",
the upper sub panel "- Styles" and the next one (below a new 
'separator'

"- Properties".



It seems that mine may be a false impression, but with the use of IT 
sidebar, relate the "Properties" tab with "direct formatting" contrary 
to the tabs "Styles and Formatting" with ... styles.

I would not want it to break.


This would improve working with styles. You see immediately what you're
changing.



Right, but the sidebar has a different workflow. Not always visible and 
also the same tab, the contents of the sidebar can be hidden. For these 
cases kept the formatting toolbar, but it is better to renew the 
sidebar.


See: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94427


(Additional notes
- the only reason I have a toolbar active, is that I can see/use the
"Apply style" list.


ditto. If that's your approach, you might want an improvement in the 
toolbar. docs google toolbar for LibreOffice.



- would be great if that control in side bar could (eventually) also be
accessed with Ctrl+F11. )

Ideas?



I bet to keep the properties tab with direct formatting options (tell me 
if this notion is wrong) and improve the workflow tab of Styles and 
Formatting.
Add styles control in the properties tab is redundant and does not seem 
a good idea to improve it.
I have the same sense of purpose regarding the drop-down menu in the 
toolbar, but I only used as "indicator" style currently used ... nothing 
more.


ideas Styles and Formatting sidebar:
- Add changed styles in the list of custom styles.

If I take a default style and make modifications for use in the 
document, it is not considered in the list of custom styles.
I usually use show Custom Styles to have the complete list of styles 
that will use the document (applied or not), but the default styles that 
have been modified not listed (so I think new styles for all).



Cheers - Cor

NB Thanks for asking Bastián, was on my mind already a long time that I
wanted to work on clearer ideas for this subject. Now thanks to the
meeting yesterday and your question it just happened :)
PS I know there is an issue for this. But I'm a sort of finishing stuff
before a week holiday. So leave the idea here.)

--
Cor Nouws




Thanks for your attention
--
Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diaz_bastian

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