Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On 08/29/2016 01:27 PM, Michael Siepmann wrote: > On 08/29/2016 01:45 PM, mray wrote: > >> The last meeting made clear we need to settle on what we expect the page >> to do for a user. >> >> My impression was always that MVP needs a page to satisfy the basic need >> of people to see where there money goes in a system that is really "half >> baked". There may be more need for many other visualizations, but for >> this one it boils down to: >> >> "Where did my money go?" >> >> (Aaron supposed to rename the tab to "Payment History" to somewhat >> clarify its purpose.) >> >> @Michael: >> What is your opinion on that matter? - What do you think the MVP page >> should do for the user. > > I think it includes "Where did my money go?" but also, importantly, > "What's been happening with my pledges?". People will pledge on > Snowdrift.coop because they want to support projects, so it's important > for the history page to show them what's happened each month with regard > to their support for projects, whether or not any of their money went > anywhere that month. > > I don't think it's OK in mid-May 2016, for example, as illustrated in > the attached, to have the history tell them nothing about April and > March other than that spending got carried over because the payment > processing fee would make up more than 10%. > >> I think any discussion about page mockups only makes sense in the >> specific context of what needs to be solved by them. >> > > Agreed. > > I think two pages for "payment history" and "pledge history" should be considered. They each solve separate questions: (A) "where did my money go?" and (B) "How does this crowdmatch thing work in terms of my place in it and the projects I support?" (i.e. understand the system via reviewing your history as a patron). Both do seem relevant to MVP. Combining them may make it harder than designing to separately answer each question… signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On 08/29/2016 02:35 PM, Aaron Wolf wrote: > On 08/29/2016 01:27 PM, Michael Siepmann wrote: >> On 08/29/2016 01:45 PM, mray wrote: >> >>> The last meeting made clear we need to settle on what we expect the page >>> to do for a user. >>> >>> My impression was always that MVP needs a page to satisfy the basic need >>> of people to see where there money goes in a system that is really "half >>> baked". There may be more need for many other visualizations, but for >>> this one it boils down to: >>> >>> "Where did my money go?" >>> >>> (Aaron supposed to rename the tab to "Payment History" to somewhat >>> clarify its purpose.) >>> >>> @Michael: >>> What is your opinion on that matter? - What do you think the MVP page >>> should do for the user. >> I think it includes "Where did my money go?" but also, importantly, >> "What's been happening with my pledges?". People will pledge on >> Snowdrift.coop because they want to support projects, so it's important >> for the history page to show them what's happened each month with regard >> to their support for projects, whether or not any of their money went >> anywhere that month. >> >> I don't think it's OK in mid-May 2016, for example, as illustrated in >> the attached, to have the history tell them nothing about April and >> March other than that spending got carried over because the payment >> processing fee would make up more than 10%. >> >>> I think any discussion about page mockups only makes sense in the >>> specific context of what needs to be solved by them. >>> >> Agreed. >> >> > I think two pages for "payment history" and "pledge history" should be > considered. They each solve separate questions: (A) "where did my money > go?" and (B) "How does this crowdmatch thing work in terms of my place > in it and the projects I support?" (i.e. understand the system via > reviewing your history as a patron). Both do seem relevant to MVP. > Combining them may make it harder than designing to separately answer > each question… > I don't see that they're so distinct. If we completely remove "what happened with my pledges?" from the "payment history" view then all that's left is a list of credit card charges. That really only answers "how much of my money went, and when?" but leaves out "where". We can't answer "where" without showing how pledges, payment fees, and carryovers (when applicable) led to the amount charged. I'm not convinced that "How does this crowdmatch thing work" is really a suitable purpose to assign to the history. Certainly it should ideally help you understand it if you don't already. But the primary purpose is to show you want happened in your specific case, over the past months. If we wanted a compact view that really is just "how much, when", then we could potentially have a checkbox at the top of the page that optionally hides everything except the amount charged each month, collapsing each month-box in a view like https://snowdrift.sylphs.net/seafhttp/files/4dc06a75-af0f-4577-99da-b501c00b4f12/website_mvp_dashboard_history_MSiep1.4.svg.png. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On 29.08.2016 22:27, Michael Siepmann wrote: > On 08/29/2016 01:45 PM, mray wrote: > >> The last meeting made clear we need to settle on what we expect the page >> to do for a user. >> >> My impression was always that MVP needs a page to satisfy the basic need >> of people to see where there money goes in a system that is really "half >> baked". There may be more need for many other visualizations, but for >> this one it boils down to: >> >> "Where did my money go?" >> >> (Aaron supposed to rename the tab to "Payment History" to somewhat >> clarify its purpose.) >> >> @Michael: >> What is your opinion on that matter? - What do you think the MVP page >> should do for the user. > > I think it includes "Where did my money go?" but also, importantly, > "What's been happening with my pledges?". People will pledge on > Snowdrift.coop because they want to support projects, so it's important > for the history page to show them what's happened each month with regard > to their support for projects, whether or not any of their money went > anywhere that month. I don't know what you mean by "happening" in the question: "What's been happening with my pledges?" We don't decide what happens with money, but maybe you mean what your current relation to projects you support/not support? Giving money away is all there happens, the how & why should not be explained via accounting. To me this feels like "Reverse engineering" that might shed light on what our mechanism is. Having a dedicated page to approach this issue seems a better solution. I understand that the question "What's been happening with my pledges?" can arise *nevertheless* and people may indeed find themselves trying to understand it while looking at the payment history. But if we accept the challenge to explain the mechanism there, it comes at the cost of more complexity. This opposes our efforts to keep things simple; the mechanism and its explanation. > > I don't think it's OK in mid-May 2016, for example, as illustrated in > the attached, to have the history tell them nothing about April and > March other than that spending got carried over because the payment > processing fee would make up more than 10%. Agreed. This can be a problem. But all information is present always – only in the "Matches" tab. Linking there would make sense in the case of the last month being a carryover-month. Any other month can not suffer that problem. > >> I think any discussion about page mockups only makes sense in the >> specific context of what needs to be solved by them. >> > > Agreed. > > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On 29.08.2016 22:35, Aaron Wolf wrote: > > I think two pages for "payment history" and "pledge history" should be > considered. They each solve separate questions: (A) "where did my money > go?" and (B) "How does this crowdmatch thing work in terms of my place > in it and the projects I support?" (i.e. understand the system via > reviewing your history as a patron). Both do seem relevant to MVP. > Combining them may make it harder than designing to separately answer > each question… > I don't think (B) would be relevant for MVP. We currently have at least *some* information that can shed light on that. At least enough for MVP. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 11:06:31AM +0200, Robert Martinez (mray) wrote: > > On 29.08.2016 22:35, Aaron Wolf wrote: > > > > I think two pages for "payment history" and "pledge history" > > should be considered. They each solve separate questions: (A) > > "where did my money go?" and (B) "How does this crowdmatch thing > > work in terms of my place in it and the projects I support?" (i.e. > > understand the system via reviewing your history as a patron). > > Both do seem relevant to MVP. Combining them may make it harder > > than designing to separately answer each question… > > > > I don't think (B) would be relevant for MVP. We currently have at > least *some* information that can shed light on that. At least > enough for MVP. > There doesn't seem to be any hope of reconciling "payment history" and "pledge history" pages. Nor does there need to be. I think it's time for a decision. There are three classes of information: 1. Current pledge information 2. Historic payment information 3. Historic pledge information These forms of information should be made available as separate pages, with the given ordering being used as implementation priority. "Current pledge information" will be available on the dashboard[1], along with the controls to modify pledge status. "Historic pledge information" will doubtless include aspects of history *payment* information. That's contributed to the current challenge: one *could* include *all* payment information within historic pledge information. But I am explicitly deciding to call out payment history into its own page. "Historic payment information" will, in fact, be hardly more than a list of credit card charges. mray's vision will be captured here. This page is too simple and useful to leave hanging. We can add a payment history page now, and it will be hardly affected when we add extra features. Whether or not we have features like limits, rollover, or suspended pledges will hardly affect the display of historic payment information. Payment history is a pleasingly stable form of history. Creating this page frees us to show historic pledge information in a way most suited to engaging and explaining the mechanism. P.S. Whether or not such-and-such a page is "MVP" has always been a vague notion. What does "MVP" mean anymore? We already have an MVP that we are iterating upon. Deciding when and to whom to advertise our existence is the real question. Right now we are focusing on the people who want to support Snowdrift at any cost. They don't need any history information whatsoever. Next comes payment history, since it's so simple and static. Finally comes pledge history, as part of the neverending task of engaging and illuminating the mechanism. [1]: Current pledge information will be available in other places as well, of course. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On 08/31/2016 05:57 AM, Bryan Richter wrote: > On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 11:06:31AM +0200, Robert Martinez (mray) > wrote: >> On 29.08.2016 22:35, Aaron Wolf wrote: >>> I think two pages for "payment history" and "pledge history" >>> should be considered. They each solve separate questions: (A) >>> "where did my money go?" and (B) "How does this crowdmatch thing >>> work in terms of my place in it and the projects I support?" (i.e. >>> understand the system via reviewing your history as a patron). >>> Both do seem relevant to MVP. Combining them may make it harder >>> than designing to separately answer each question… >>> >> I don't think (B) would be relevant for MVP. We currently have at >> least *some* information that can shed light on that. At least >> enough for MVP. >> > There doesn't seem to be any hope of reconciling "payment history" and > "pledge history" pages. Nor does there need to be. I think it's time > for a decision. > > There are three classes of information: > > 1. Current pledge information > 2. Historic payment information > 3. Historic pledge information > > These forms of information should be made available as separate pages, > with the given ordering being used as implementation priority. > > "Current pledge information" will be available on the dashboard[1], > along with the controls to modify pledge status. > > "Historic pledge information" will doubtless include aspects of > history *payment* information. That's contributed to the current > challenge: one *could* include *all* payment information within > historic pledge information. But I am explicitly deciding to call out > payment history into its own page. > > "Historic payment information" will, in fact, be hardly more than a > list of credit card charges. mray's vision will be captured here. This > page is too simple and useful to leave hanging. We can add a payment > history page now, and it will be hardly affected when we add extra > features. Whether or not we have features like limits, rollover, or > suspended pledges will hardly affect the display of historic payment > information. Payment history is a pleasingly stable form of history. > Creating this page frees us to show historic pledge information in a > way most suited to engaging and explaining the mechanism. > > P.S. Whether or not such-and-such a page is "MVP" has always been a > vague notion. What does "MVP" mean anymore? We already have an MVP > that we are iterating upon. Deciding when and to whom to advertise our > existence is the real question. > > Right now we are focusing on the people who want to support Snowdrift > at any cost. They don't need any history information whatsoever. Next > comes payment history, since it's so simple and static. Finally comes > pledge history, as part of the neverending task of engaging and > illuminating the mechanism. > > [1]: Current pledge information will be available in other places as > well, of course. > This approach sounds fine to me from a prioritization perspective. However, as soon as we're aiming to support more than a small number of "insider" users, I think we will need an effective explanation of *why* the historic payments were what they were, which means showing how historic payment information relates to historic pledge information, including edge case complexities where a month's payment was not the same as that month's pledge total. We can't just separately have one list of credit card charges and another list of monthly pledge totals. We need some way to show how they relate to each other. Both mray's and my recent mockups aim to do that. I don't think our debate has been about whether we need to do that, but about how best to do it. In any case, I'm all for putting this on the back burner in order to get something up and running that doesn't yet address this issue, and then come back to this when we're ready to actually implement it. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 09:32:12AM -0600, Michael Siepmann wrote: > > On 08/31/2016 05:57 AM, Bryan Richter wrote: > > > > There are three classes of information: > > > > 1. Current pledge information > > 2. Historic payment information > > 3. Historic pledge information > > > > These forms of information should be made available as separate > > pages, with the given ordering being used as implementation > > priority. > > This approach sounds fine to me from a prioritization perspective. > However, as soon as we're aiming to support more than a small number > of "insider" users, I think we will need an effective explanation > of *why* the historic payments were what they were, which means > showing how historic payment information relates to historic pledge > information, including edge case complexities where a month's payment > was not the same as that month's pledge total. To be clear, I am saying that we should use both Robert's and Michael's visions, but on separate pages. Robert's "Where did my money go?" is payment history. If we allow a page to be JUST payment history, that page can be as simple as we please. It can skip months and provide opaque totals. It does not need to carefully explain each month's pledge/crowdmatch activity. It has just one purpose. With that out of the way, we can provide a more robust pledge history, which is Michael's "effective explanation of *why* history payments were what they were". Pledge history will *include* payment history. But the user won't be forced to parse payment history out of pledge history. Payment history information will be separately available in unambiguous simplicity. This will allow that information to FACILITATE the explanation of pledge history, rather than be dependent on it. I agree with mray that we need a simple, clear, unambiguous description of payment history, and I agree with Msiep that such information is not sufficient for selling Snowdrift to the world at large — and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On 08/31/2016 11:48 PM, Bryan Richter wrote: > On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 09:32:12AM -0600, Michael Siepmann wrote: >> >> On 08/31/2016 05:57 AM, Bryan Richter wrote: >>> There are three classes of information: >>> >>> 1. Current pledge information >>> 2. Historic payment information >>> 3. Historic pledge information >>> >>> These forms of information should be made available as separate >>> pages, with the given ordering being used as implementation >>> priority. >> This approach sounds fine to me from a prioritization perspective. >> However, as soon as we're aiming to support more than a small number >> of "insider" users, I think we will need an effective explanation >> of *why* the historic payments were what they were, which means >> showing how historic payment information relates to historic pledge >> information, including edge case complexities where a month's payment >> was not the same as that month's pledge total. > To be clear, I am saying that we should use both Robert's and Michael's > visions, but on separate pages. Robert's "Where did my money go?" is > payment history. If we allow a page to be JUST payment history, that > page can be as simple as we please. It can skip months and provide > opaque totals. It does not need to carefully explain each month's > pledge/crowdmatch activity. It has just one purpose. > > With that out of the way, we can provide a more robust pledge history, > which is Michael's "effective explanation of *why* history payments > were what they were". Pledge history will *include* payment history. > But the user won't be forced to parse payment history out of pledge > history. Payment history information will be separately available in > unambiguous simplicity. This will allow that information to FACILITATE > the explanation of pledge history, rather than be dependent on it. > > I agree with mray that we need a simple, clear, unambiguous description > of payment history, and I agree with Msiep that such information is not > sufficient for selling Snowdrift to the world at large — and the whole > is greater than the sum of its parts. Sounds good to me. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On 01.09.2016 16:38, Michael Siepmann wrote: > > > On 08/31/2016 11:48 PM, Bryan Richter wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 09:32:12AM -0600, Michael Siepmann wrote: >>> >>> On 08/31/2016 05:57 AM, Bryan Richter wrote: There are three classes of information: 1. Current pledge information 2. Historic payment information 3. Historic pledge information These forms of information should be made available as separate pages, with the given ordering being used as implementation priority. >>> This approach sounds fine to me from a prioritization perspective. >>> However, as soon as we're aiming to support more than a small number >>> of "insider" users, I think we will need an effective explanation >>> of *why* the historic payments were what they were, which means >>> showing how historic payment information relates to historic pledge >>> information, including edge case complexities where a month's payment >>> was not the same as that month's pledge total. >> To be clear, I am saying that we should use both Robert's and Michael's >> visions, but on separate pages. Robert's "Where did my money go?" is >> payment history. If we allow a page to be JUST payment history, that >> page can be as simple as we please. It can skip months and provide >> opaque totals. It does not need to carefully explain each month's >> pledge/crowdmatch activity. It has just one purpose. >> >> With that out of the way, we can provide a more robust pledge history, >> which is Michael's "effective explanation of *why* history payments >> were what they were". Pledge history will *include* payment history. >> But the user won't be forced to parse payment history out of pledge >> history. Payment history information will be separately available in >> unambiguous simplicity. This will allow that information to FACILITATE >> the explanation of pledge history, rather than be dependent on it. >> >> I agree with mray that we need a simple, clear, unambiguous description >> of payment history, and I agree with Msiep that such information is not >> sufficient for selling Snowdrift to the world at large — and the whole >> is greater than the sum of its parts. > > Sounds good to me. > > Sounds good to me, too. I'm just somewhat confused what this means in terms of a decision. If MVP is a vague term - what exactly needs mockups *now*? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
Re: [Snowdrift-design] "History" or "Payment History" page content
On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 12:25:56AM +0200, Robert Martinez (mray) wrote: > > On 01.09.2016 16:38, Michael Siepmann wrote: > > > > On 08/31/2016 11:48 PM, Bryan Richter wrote: > >> > >> I agree with mray that we need a simple, clear, unambiguous > >> description of payment history, and I agree with Msiep that such > >> information is not sufficient for selling Snowdrift to the world > >> at large — and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. > > > > Sounds good to me. > > Sounds good to me, too. I'm just somewhat confused what this means > in terms of a decision. If MVP is a vague term - what exactly needs > mockups *now*? Let's brainstorm some possible user stories that we want to make available. Once we decide on a good batch, we can add them to Taiga to track progress. I'll create a draft here. Let's just keep it in emails until we feel like we have good ones. I am frustrated with dumping things in Taiga first, where they become much harder to quickly modify and iterate on than plain old text! So here are some pages and stories: PAGES - Dashboard Page: control your pledges - Stripe.js Page: add or modify payment info - Project Page [Snowdrift]: learn about a project and its patrons - Payment History Page: see where your money went DASHBOARD PAGE (this page is only available to logged-in users) - A user has just finished verifying their account and is taken to the Dashboard. They don't have any payment info registered yet, and the page should make that clear. - A user wants to add their payment info. From the Dashboard there is a link to the Stripe.js Page. The link provides sufficient explanation that the Stripe.js Page uses proprietary Javascript whose use is governed by Stripe's ToS. - A user wants to modify or delete their payment info. (Very similar to "add their payment info"; maybe just treat the same?) - A user HAS submitted their payment info and wants to pledge to Snowdrift from the Dashboard. They have adequate funds and all that. They click a button and are immediately added to the crowd. The page reloads and shows their new status and new statistics. - A patron goes to the Dashboard to see the current state of their pledges. - A patron wants to leave a project's crowd. The Dashboard shows them they can click on the project to be taken to the Project Page, where those controls exist. - A user has verified payment info recorded in the system. On the Dashboard there is an friendly indicator that reminds them they are a viable patron. STRIPE.JS PAGE (this page is only available to logged-in users) - A user has no payment info recorded. There is a form on the Stripe.js Page where they can put in their credit card info. They put in valid info, it is sent directly to Stripe, and they are redirected to the Dashboard with a happy alert. - A user wants to delete or modify their existing payment info. The Stripe.js Page provides controls to do so. PROJECT PAGE [SNOWDRIFT] - A site visitor (not logged in) follows a link to the Project Page in order to satisfy their curiosity about the sorts of projects that are supported on the Snowdrift Platform. They can see information about the project, a sales pitch for why the project deserves support, and crowdmatching numbers that highlight how the visitor's own potential pledge would effect the mechanism. - A user (logged in, verified payment info, unpledged) follows a link to the Project Page, for all the reasons listed above. As a potential patron, however, they can choose to join the crowd by clicking a button. The page reloads with updated numbers. - ... ... Ok that's already a lot, enough for now. I'll leave the history pages (and the rest of the Project Page) for later. I think the "take my money" milestone potentially only needs the first two pages. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Design mailing list Design@lists.snowdrift.coop https://lists.snowdrift.coop/mailman/listinfo/design
