[Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[emeka]

I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by
default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a
users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default
Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King. Lets not
forget that GNOME's come a long way & we have some of our very own working
with them. Fedora has always been a platform for true open source
applications. Lets carry GNOME 3.0 along even though we could make
provisions for UNITY or even google chrome much later.


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>
>1. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Onyeibo Oku)
>2. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Martin Sourada)
>3. Call For Papers - 2011 World Congress on Mathematicsand
>   Statistics (WCMS 2011)
>4. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Nicu Buculei)
>5. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Jaroslav Reznik)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 03:09:14 +0100
> From: Onyeibo Oku 
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15
> To: Fedora Design Team 
> Message-ID: <4d0d694a.7020...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 12/19/2010 03:02 AM, Jim Campbell wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> 2010/12/18 M?ir?n Duffy > >
>>
>> On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
>>  > No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome
>> spins.
>>  > We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or
>> just do it
>>  > they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of course
>> affect
>>  > other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.
>>
>> Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I
>> completely do not understand it. Can you please explain?
>>
>>  > PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "out
>> of
>>  > ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me
>> change
>>  > my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...
>>
>> We have to make a decision.
>>
>> ~m
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that the Fedora Project is in a good spot here in that the
>> default Gnome3 wallpaper is a shade of blue that coincides nicely with
>> the colors that Fedora uses anyway.
>>
>> The same cannot be said of OpenSUSE, though.
>>
>> Given the hubbub that is in Fedora where there isn't really a conflict
>> of colors, but other distros would likely have a conflict with the
>> colors, would upstream Gnome be willing to compromise on this?  Would
>> upstream be willing to allow distros to create stripe-based wallpapers
>> that include the same design pattern, same degree of saturation, same
>> texture, etc., but use different distro-specific colors?  After all,
>> could we really expect OpenSUSE to ship a blue theme?  So much of their
>> artwork (website, icon set, metacity theme, etc.) is green.  And I have
>> never seen a blue gecko.  : (
>>
>> If we were able get a compromise like this, I think that there would be
>> greater likelihood of buy-in from the various the distros. They would be
>> representing and celebrating Gnome, but would retain key portions of
>> their own distro "self." Perhaps even Ubuntu would be willing to ship an
>> aubergine stripe-based theme as part of their wallpaper set (though, of
>> course, not as their default, as they are using Unity).
>>
>> This could also potentially benefit Gnome, as they could do something
>> like, "Different Colors, One Gnome," or something like that.  The Gnome
>> brand identity could be visible in the stripes, while the distros get
>> their identity in the colors.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
> That's what I thought too
> --
> Oku Onyeibo
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:40:15 +0100
> From: Martin Sourada 
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15
> To: Fedora Design Team 
> Message-ID: <1292751616.2356.178.ca...@localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 20:34 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote:
>> On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
>> > No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome
>> spins.
>> > We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or just do
>> it
>> > they way we do

Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Bill Nottingham]

em...@bensoftent.com (em...@bensoftent.com) said: 
> I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by
> default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a
> users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default
> Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King.

That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at
boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their
web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just
serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging
in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good
defaults, not just punt choices to the user.

Bill
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Camilo Mesias]

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Bill Nottingham  wrote:
> That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at
> boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their
> web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just
> serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging
> in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good
> defaults, not just punt choices to the user.

Last time I did an install there was a series of questions / intrusive
UI on the first boot, is it so different?

As a user I don't really care what the background is, so long as my
subjective impression doesn't find it offensive. If I find it
offensive it's only a few clicks to replace it.

If I was a Gnome developer I'd probably be keen to see the upstream
presentation preserved; as a user I do find some value in this.

If I was a Fedora design team member I'd probably be keen for users to
have access to the Fedora version of Gnome 3, equally as a user I
would like to have this option.

Isn't it crucial to keeping everyone reasonably happy to let the users
have the option to choose from both alternatives, and wouldn't a first
boot question fit that perfectly?

-Cam
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/21/2010 02:33 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Bill Nottingham  wrote:
>> That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at
>> boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their
>> web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just
>> serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging
>> in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good
>> defaults, not just punt choices to the user.
>
> Last time I did an install there was a series of questions / intrusive
> UI on the first boot, is it so different?

Yes, it is, we already have to many question at firstboot. We should not 
ask there questions that are trivial or for which the user is not 
prepared to answer.

> As a user I don't really care what the background is, so long as my
> subjective impression doesn't find it offensive. If I find it
> offensive it's only a few clicks to replace it.
>
> If I was a Gnome developer I'd probably be keen to see the upstream
> presentation preserved; as a user I do find some value in this.
>
> If I was a Fedora design team member I'd probably be keen for users to
> have access to the Fedora version of Gnome 3, equally as a user I
> would like to have this option.

They still can have the choice in the background selection app and we 
provide there aa larger pool to choose from, but, and this was the 
philosophy in GNOME for *years*, is important to have good defaults.

> Isn't it crucial to keeping everyone reasonably happy to let the users
> have the option to choose from both alternatives, and wouldn't a first
> boot question fit that perfectly?

No, it would be too much to ask, is a slippery slope, where do we start? 
ask also about icon themes, cursor look, preferred SMTP server, shoes 
size etc.?

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Camilo Mesias]

Then if it's not sufficiently important to ask a user, it probably
isn't worth deliberating further.

Toss a coin or something? Provide a random default?

I wish there was more focus to package up and present alternative
themes than to provide a single look for each release. I'm thinking
that I get a better experience from choosing and using a WordPress
theme than I do from clicking about on the desktop or visiting
gnome-look.org or art.gnome.org. The default WordPress look is fine.
It's taken for granted that users will replace it though. Shouldn't it
be similar for the desktop?

-Cam
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/21/2010 03:12 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> Then if it's not sufficiently important to ask a user, it probably
> isn't worth deliberating further.

Firstboot is not the time to ask that many questions, the system is 
supposed to be able to run, not wait for the user to ask countless 
questions.

> Toss a coin or something? Provide a random default?

Provide the *better* default.

> I wish there was more focus to package up and present alternative
> themes than to provide a single look for each release. I'm thinking

As a matter of fact for F14 we produced a set of alternate wallpapers, 
but there was not enough space on the media for them to be included so 
they are available only for download:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F14_Artwork_Supplemental_Wallpapers_Winners

> that I get a better experience from choosing and using a WordPress
> theme than I do from clicking about on the desktop or visiting
> gnome-look.org or art.gnome.org. The default WordPress look is fine.
> It's taken for granted that users will replace it though. Shouldn't it
> be similar for the desktop?

The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the 
reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.

-- 
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Camilo Mesias]

I think this is wrong:

> Provide the *better* default.

That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
and either might be equally good for a user!

> The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the
> reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.

If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely?
Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about
someone else's idea of the 'better' background?

I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like
Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default,
will anyone even notice the background?

-Cam
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/21/2010 03:39 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> I think this is wrong:
>
>> Provide the *better* default.
>
> That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
> subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome

And this is the crux of the debate we have here, do we want the better 
for Fedora or for GNOME.

> and either might be equally good for a user!

For the user is important to have an *usable* wallpaper and a smooth 
experience.

>> The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the
>> reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
>
> If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely?
> Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about
> someone else's idea of the 'better' background?

Yes, asking for that choice would be bad usability and a real reason for 
us to be shamed.
As much as I oppose having the upstream wallpaper as a default, I would 
agree is better having it instead of asking the user to choose at the 
wrong time (firstboot).

> I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like
> Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default,
> will anyone even notice the background?

The plan from the Desktop people is to have the Shell as a default (if 
it will be ready in time) and their intention is to use the upstream 
wallpaper as default to emphasize this.

-- 
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[twohot]

On 21 December 2010 14:39, Camilo Mesias  wrote:
> I think this is wrong:
>
>> Provide the *better* default.
>
> That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
> subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
> and either might be equally good for a user!
>

No. One default can be better than another.  Even if you take a
subjective approach and take a poll.  You'll get a clear winner ...
subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art.
It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner
accepted by a few.

>> The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the
>> reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
>
> If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely?
> Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about
> someone else's idea of the 'better' background?
>
> I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like
> Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default,
> will anyone even notice the background?

Of COurse! I am using gnome-shell and I see the wallpaper all the
time.  Maybe you should preview Gnome3 first

>
> -Cam
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/21/2010 04:21 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 21, 2010 03:15:05 pm Nicu Buculei wrote:
>> On 12/21/2010 03:39 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
>>> I think this is wrong:
 Provide the *better* default.
>>>
>>> That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
>>> subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
>>
>> And this is the crux of the debate we have here, do we want the better
>> for Fedora or for GNOME.
>
> And why not to make happy both parties? :)

Because this is not possible? The impasse we are in does not have a 
solution that will please everybody.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Fabian A. Scherschel]

Oh, come on!

Asking the user what wallpaper they want on boot is obviously nonsense!
Should we also ask them what colour icons they want or where the panels
should be? How about the browser or the default email program? Where does it
stop?

The job of a distribution is too decide on sensible defaults so the user
doesn't have to. This is ridicolous!

Fab



On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:57 PM,  wrote:

> I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by
> default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a
> users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default
> Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King. Lets not
> forget that GNOME's come a long way & we have some of our very own working
> with them. Fedora has always been a platform for true open source
> applications. Lets carry GNOME 3.0 along even though we could make
> provisions for UNITY or even google chrome much later.
>
>
> Send design-team mailing list submissions to
> >   design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >   https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >   design-team-requ...@lists.fedoraproject.org
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> > You can reach the person managing the list at
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of design-team digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >1. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Onyeibo Oku)
> >2. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Martin Sourada)
> >3. Call For Papers - 2011 World Congress on Mathematicsand
> >   Statistics (WCMS 2011)
> >4. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Nicu Buculei)
> >5. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Jaroslav Reznik)
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 03:09:14 +0100
> > From: Onyeibo Oku 
> > Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15
> > To: Fedora Design Team 
> > Message-ID: <4d0d694a.7020...@gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >
> > On 12/19/2010 03:02 AM, Jim Campbell wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> 2010/12/18 M?ir?n Duffy  >> >
> >>
> >> On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
> >>  > No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome
> >> spins.
> >>  > We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or
> >> just do it
> >>  > they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of course
> >> affect
> >>  > other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.
> >>
> >> Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I
> >> completely do not understand it. Can you please explain?
> >>
> >>  > PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "out
> >> of
> >>  > ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me
> >> change
> >>  > my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...
> >>
> >> We have to make a decision.
> >>
> >> ~m
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I think that the Fedora Project is in a good spot here in that the
> >> default Gnome3 wallpaper is a shade of blue that coincides nicely with
> >> the colors that Fedora uses anyway.
> >>
> >> The same cannot be said of OpenSUSE, though.
> >>
> >> Given the hubbub that is in Fedora where there isn't really a conflict
> >> of colors, but other distros would likely have a conflict with the
> >> colors, would upstream Gnome be willing to compromise on this?  Would
> >> upstream be willing to allow distros to create stripe-based wallpapers
> >> that include the same design pattern, same degree of saturation, same
> >> texture, etc., but use different distro-specific colors?  After all,
> >> could we really expect OpenSUSE to ship a blue theme?  So much of their
> >> artwork (website, icon set, metacity theme, etc.) is green.  And I have
> >> never seen a blue gecko.  : (
> >>
> >> If we were able get a compromise like this, I think that there would be
> >> greater likelihood of buy-in from the various the distros. They would be
> >> representing and celebrating Gnome, but would retain key portions of
> >> their own distro "self." Perhaps even Ubuntu would be willing to ship an
> >> aubergine stripe-based theme as part of their wallpaper set (though, of
> >> course, not as their default, as they are using Unity).
> >>
> >> This could also potentially benefit Gnome, as they could do something
> >> like, "Different Colors, One Gnome," or something like that.  The Gnome
> >> brand identity could be visible in the stripes, while the distros get
> >> their identity in the colors.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >
> > That's what I thought too
> > --
> > Oku Onyeibo
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/

Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Camilo Mesias]

Hi,

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:32 PM, twohot  wrote:
> No. One default can be better than another.  Even if you take a
> subjective approach and take a poll.  You'll get a clear winner ...
> subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art.
> It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner
> accepted by a few.

I think the point is that the Fedora background and the Gnome one are
both likely to be technically excellent backgrounds. Users would get
along fine with either. A choice is more likely to be made on
religious grounds and any poll you take will be heavily influenced by
the opinions of the people polled.

If a user choice is really such a horrible UI then someone will have
to decide on a default. The person responsible will risk alienating
some people. The 'losers' will have to swallow their pride and we can
all move on to something that users will actually care about.

> Of COurse! I am using gnome-shell and I see the wallpaper all the
> time.  Maybe you should preview Gnome3 first

I've been using Gnome shell since I first noticed I could, and I love
it. I know it's not perfect. I know not everyone loves it but I am
really looking forward to it being the default :) If it ships then I
will be stunned to hear reviews along the lines of "It has Gnome shell
which is so different to the old desktop in so many ways but the thing
that really bugged me was this wallpaper" :)

-Cam
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Camilo Mesias]

Fab,

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Fabian A. Scherschel  wrote:
> Oh, come on!
> Asking the user what wallpaper they want on boot is obviously nonsense!
> Should we also ask them what colour icons they want or where the panels
> should be? How about the browser or the default email program? Where does it
> stop?
> The job of a distribution is too decide on sensible defaults so the user
> doesn't have to. This is ridicolous!

It's not that ridiculous if you think about it. It might be different
to what you are used to from a Linux distro.

I'm thinking of lots of modern websites where the design and
functionality has been changed*. These are leading sites that haven't
got to where they are by alienating users. It is similar to changing
the way the desktop works. As a gentle introduction to the changes,
the user on first login is offered a tour of the new features which
integrates nicely with a chance to change or set the optional bits of
the interface. Actually I think that would work really well with Gnome
3 if only someone had the time, the overall vision and the
responsibility for making sure the users 'bought in' to the new
design...

-Cam

* new.facebook.com and then Facebook's 'New profile'; the second
redesign of Orkut; YouTube's new layout all had interactive tours to
introduce users to the new features (and turn bits of them off if they
didn't like them)
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/21/2010 11:14 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:32 PM, twohot  wrote:
>> No. One default can be better than another.  Even if you take a
>> subjective approach and take a poll.  You'll get a clear winner ...
>> subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art.
>> It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner
>> accepted by a few.
>
> I think the point is that the Fedora background and the Gnome one are
> both likely to be technically excellent backgrounds. Users would get
> along fine with either. A choice is more likely to be made on
> religious grounds and any poll you take will be heavily influenced by
> the opinions of the people polled.

There is nothing religious here, is all about identity, marketing and 
strategy.

> If a user choice is really such a horrible UI then someone will have
> to decide on a default. The person responsible will risk alienating
> some people. The 'losers' will have to swallow their pride and we can
> all move on to something that users will actually care about.

Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make 
the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate 
this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).


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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Onyeibo Oku]

On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:

> Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make
> the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate
> this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).
>

I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.

-- 
Oku Onyeibo
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/22/2010 09:11 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> 
>> Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make
>> the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate
>> this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).
>>
>
> I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.

We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody 
backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a 
"winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and 
people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We 
decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Onyeibo Oku]

On 12/22/2010 08:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 09:11 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
>> On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
>> 
>>> Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make
>>> the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate
>>> this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).
>>>
>>
>> I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.
>
> We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody
> backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a
> "winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and
> people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We
> decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.
>
That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the 
increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I 
don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that 
we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.

 I personally don't buy the wallpaper concept (stripes) 
but it does go well with the Gnome3 mock-ups (which means the Gnome3 
interface overhaul will be more at home with the kind of wallpapers made 
by the Fedora Design Team).  However, in the spirit of Open-Source and 
Linux OS as a whole, its humbling to get a request to assist a major 
contributor to Linux DE.

Argh ... *scratching-my-head* ... but Fedora Design team handles design 
request other than those internally generated. Why didn't Gnome ask us 
to do this through the usual means -- place the request on Trac and 
alarm us to do our thing -- to produce a mock-up wallpaper (even link a 
sample concept, the stripes).  It would have been downstream -> upstream 
motion as usual.  That would have made this case so much easier. It 
would have been a Gnome3 wallpaper ... but a Fedora Design Team work.

It adds up.  This is a dilemma ... How did we get here? How do we end 
this? 

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Fabian A. Scherschel]

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Camilo Mesias  wrote:

>
>
> It's not that ridiculous if you think about it. It might be different
> to what you are used to from a Linux distro.
>
> I'm thinking of lots of modern websites where the design and
> functionality has been changed*. These are leading sites that haven't
> got to where they are by alienating users. It is similar to changing
> the way the desktop works.


I am sorry, but I don't agree. I meant what I said. It's horrible UX, even I
can see that. Fedora is not Facebook or Twitter and even if you could
compare a desktop operating system to a website, I'd say the way that these
proprietary, closed systems are handling their design choices is nothing a
volunteer-driven Linux distro should aspire to. As Nicu said, we already
have way too many choices, questions and knobs as it stands. I don't want us
to become one-happy-button MacOS, far from that, but we still need to be
conscious of not confusing or annoying end users-



> As a gentle introduction to the changes,
> the user on first login is offered a tour of the new features which
> integrates nicely with a chance to change or set the optional bits of
> the interface. Actually I think that would work really well with Gnome
> 3 if only someone had the time, the overall vision and the
> responsibility for making sure the users 'bought in' to the new
> design...


Do you remember Windows XP? I haven't seen one single user in five years of
part-time professional Windows end-user support that hasn't clicked away
these tours immediately. People don't want them. People also  want a nice
default wallpaper without being asked questions.

If in doubt, I'd rather use the stock Gnome wallpaper than asking people
questions first. It's a nice-looking wallpaper and my quarrel with adopting
it lies on a very different level as I hope I've made clear in this thread
already.

No offense, I didn't want to insult you, I just wanted to be clear about it.

Fab
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 08:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
>>
>> We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody
>> backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a
>> "winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and
>> people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We
>> decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.
>>
> That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the

Only then it was a fight inside the team, not is an inter-teams 
conflict. I think now is much worse, is about our identity.

> increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I
> don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that
> we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.

I am a sponsor of the Design group in FAS and so far there were no 
problems there, no new members accepted (ar people applying) since this 
debate started.

> Argh ... *scratching-my-head* ... but Fedora Design team handles design
> request other than those internally generated. Why didn't Gnome ask us
> to do this through the usual means -- place the request on Trac and
> alarm us to do our thing -- to produce a mock-up wallpaper (even link a
> sample concept, the stripes).  It would have been downstream ->  upstream
> motion as usual.  That would have made this case so much easier. It
> would have been a Gnome3 wallpaper ... but a Fedora Design Team work.

Do you think any other major distro will happily use a design made by 
Fedora?

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
>
> That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the
> increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I
> don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that
> we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.

I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have 
to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for 
something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long.
We need to be back friends and fast.

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Fabian A. Scherschel]

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:

>
>
> I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have
> to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for
> something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long.
> We need to be back friends and fast.


I would be all for a consensus but I don't think that will happen since from
my point of view, the request would have to be turned down. I don't want the
team to suffer because of this and I really like the wallpaper in question,
but I really fear for the future of the team and about Fedora design in
general if we don't make a stand at this point.

That is totally my personal opinion, though. And I'm often wrong...

Fab
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Onyeibo Oku]

On 12/22/2010 12:01 PM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Nicu Buculei  > wrote:
>
>
>
> I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have
> to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for
> something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long.
> We need to be back friends and fast.
>

+1 but how? We also need a lasting solution to this kind of conflict. 
So, there is going to be some sour moments ... but we need to get it 
finalized for good.

>
> I would be all for a consensus but I don't think that will happen since
> from my point of view, the request would have to be turned down. I don't
> want the team to suffer because of this and I really like the wallpaper
> in question, but I really fear for the future of the team and about
> Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at this point.
>
> That is totally my personal opinion, though. And I'm often wrong...

Your concerns seem right to me. Is there no group in Fedora that handles 
this kind of scenario (an SIG or something?). Both parties have 
legitimate concerns but there are better ways to address them.

First, Gnome3 designers made a mistake in proceeding with a wallpaper 
design outside of the Fedora Design team -- If they see our distro as a 
marketing route then we should have been involved from the beginning.

Second, that decision (as mentioned above) can be interpreted negatively 
and no one can be held responsible for choosing the wrong 
interpretation.  It could mean: "We can do this in-house and have a rein 
over the overall GUI" (which also suggests a GNOME DISTRO ;) -- I don't 
mean a default Fedora Spin ...I mean a real Gnome Distro with the Gnome 
'Foot' everywhere!, no further branding). It could also mean: "We can do 
this better than downstream guys" ... which makes us redundant. It could 
mean that the Gnome Team forgot they had a pool to draw from and is only 
realizing it now.

Third, Several years of Gnome3 development is not a joke. They deserve 
some level of marketing but they shouldn't make it mandatory (which 
suggests some kind of Master-Slave relationship). In any case, a "No" 
from the Fedora Design Team should NOT brew hard feelings and, on the 
other hand, Fedorians shouldn't fail to proudly exhibit Gnome3 to people 
out there.

Boundaries ... gentlemen, lets agree to agree OR agree to disagree.
Disagreeing to agree is making this topic bloated and prolonged. :)

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-12-22 at 12:51 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> I am a sponsor of the Design group in FAS and so far there were no 
> problems there, no new members accepted (ar people applying) since this 
> debate started.

I mentioned in one email folks should email me if they need it (and not
apply) and I got a *bunch* of emails.

~m

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Máirín Duffy]

On Wed, 2010-12-22 at 12:55 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
> >
> > That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the
> > increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I
> > don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that
> > we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.
> 
> I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have 
> to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for 
> something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long.
> We need to be back friends and fast.

+1 I would honestly really prefer a simple consensus.

~m

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Kirk Bridger]

Hi all,

Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that 
I want to better understand.

How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team 
[1] result in fear for the future of this team?

I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity 
of a Fedora release.  I don't understand the idea that the team's very 
existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper 
isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm 
unaware of?

It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to 
provide value to Fedora?

Kirk

[1] I thought I read that part of the Fedora Design Team helped create 
the wallpaper, didn't they?




On 12/22/2010 03:01 AM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
>  I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like 
> the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the 
> team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at 
> this point.
>
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Fabian A. Scherschel]

Hey, Kirk!

I never said the team's existence was threatened. What I meant was the fact
that when I mention the Design Team to outsiders, the wallpaper is what
comes to their mind. For the outside world, that's largely what we do.
Losing this, if only temporarily, risks marginalising the Design Team. My
fear for the future stemmed from the fact that some people were saying using
upstream art would generally make sense for Fedora. At that point, we hardly
need a Design Team (at least not to work on the distro itself).

I don't know about others, but I joined the team because I wanted to
contribute to Fedora (as in, mainly the distro). I didn't join to do random
design tickets for other projects or spend all of my time designing
marketing collateral. Not that I wouldn't do these other things as well,
they just aren't my main reason to be on the team. I want Fedora to be the
best distro out there UI/UX-wise. I personally think that is not
unreasonable.

Cheers,
Fab



On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Kirk Bridger  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that
> I want to better understand.
>
> How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team
> [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
>
> I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity
> of a Fedora release.  I don't understand the idea that the team's very
> existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper
> isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm
> unaware of?
>
> It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to
> provide value to Fedora?
>
> Kirk
>
> [1] I thought I read that part of the Fedora Design Team helped create
> the wallpaper, didn't they?
>
>
>
>
> On 12/22/2010 03:01 AM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
> >  I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like
> > the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the
> > team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at
> > this point.
> >
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Nicu Buculei]

On 12/23/2010 06:32 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote:
>
> Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that
> I want to better understand.

Let me intervene here, as I am one of the older people around.

> How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team
> [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
>
> I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity
> of a Fedora release.  I don't understand the idea that the team's very
> existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper
> isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm
> unaware of?

I may sound dramatic, but during its existence the Design Team was over 
the time assaulted by the Red Hat Desktop Team by using its control of 
the default (GNOME Live CD) spin, for example they blocked the icon 
project developed by our team (Echo, which was "good" while led by one 
people from RHDT), they removed the Nodoka theme for a plain upstream 
default (despite opposition from other sub-projects using it for other 
spins), they forced a new notification theme on everybody without asking 
and so on.

Is also not the first time when they propose changing the wallpaper with 
something external. Some people here don't buy the "is a one time only 
thing" and expect to hear later "see how well it worked? let's do it again"

> It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to
> provide value to Fedora?

This is the very first item our team created (that brought us together) 
and the most visible of our products.

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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Catalin]

Maybe it's time for a change. I do not like excessive stubbornness and
anchoring in the past. I do not think that is a matter of
manipulation. It's just one step. Fedora had a few wallpapers that
have not been very successful. Eventually we stop to go in parallel
with Fedora wallpaper. Gnome's wallpaper to version 3.0. If you go the
idea that the design team is not able to make a wallpaper, we will not
achieve anything. Evolution of the involution is not successful, and
vice versa, the involution is not evolution.


2010/12/23 Nicu Buculei :
> On 12/23/2010 06:32 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote:
>>
>> Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that
>> I want to better understand.
>
> Let me intervene here, as I am one of the older people around.
>
>> How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team
>> [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
>>
>> I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity
>> of a Fedora release.  I don't understand the idea that the team's very
>> existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper
>> isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm
>> unaware of?
>
> I may sound dramatic, but during its existence the Design Team was over
> the time assaulted by the Red Hat Desktop Team by using its control of
> the default (GNOME Live CD) spin, for example they blocked the icon
> project developed by our team (Echo, which was "good" while led by one
> people from RHDT), they removed the Nodoka theme for a plain upstream
> default (despite opposition from other sub-projects using it for other
> spins), they forced a new notification theme on everybody without asking
> and so on.
>
> Is also not the first time when they propose changing the wallpaper with
> something external. Some people here don't buy the "is a one time only
> thing" and expect to hear later "see how well it worked? let's do it again"
>
>> It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to
>> provide value to Fedora?
>
> This is the very first item our team created (that brought us together)
> and the most visible of our products.
>
> --
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Fabian A. Scherschel]

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Catalin  wrote:

> Maybe it's time for a change. I do not like excessive stubbornness and
> anchoring in the past.


Change just for change's sake can be very dangerous. Decisions like this
have to be thought through properly. We can't just willy-nilly agree to such
a fundamental request. If we agree, there has to be good reasoning for it.
In any case, we have to think about it carefully. I really respect Nicu's
experience, he's been with the team for very long and we should at least
think about his points.

Fab
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Catalin]

Then let him decide . Do not waste your time writing emails .

2010/12/23 Fabian A. Scherschel :
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Catalin  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe it's time for a change. I do not like excessive stubbornness and
>> anchoring in the past.
>
> Change just for change's sake can be very dangerous. Decisions like this
> have to be thought through properly. We can't just willy-nilly agree to such
> a fundamental request. If we agree, there has to be good reasoning for it.
> In any case, we have to think about it carefully. I really respect Nicu's
> experience, he's been with the team for very long and we should at least
> think about his points.
> Fab
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Fabian A. Scherschel]

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Catalin  wrote:

> Then let him decide . Do not waste your time writing emails .
>

I am not wasting my time and I want to be part of the decision making
process. Please let me decide when I deem it necessary to write emails and
when it isn't.

Fab
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Re: [Design-team] Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

[Catalin]

I'm not talking to you personally (just I reply to mail).
Of course it's your decision, which may be unanimous.
I could not see how I change your decision.
But watching the posts, I saw a basic idea - I do not agree with the
gnome wallpaper.

2010/12/24 Fabian A. Scherschel :
>
> On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Catalin  wrote:
>>
>> Then let him decide . Do not waste your time writing emails .
>
> I am not wasting my time and I want to be part of the decision making
> process. Please let me decide when I deem it necessary to write emails and
> when it isn't.
> Fab
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