Re: DVCS
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 05:25:58PM -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Good timing. I'm working on it. Have a draft of the survey itself. I'm > installing a PHP-based survey software now. Then will pass the survey by > board, r-t, and sysadmin team, then go about asking people to fill in. Have > not looked into getting the list of SVN users yet. Will get to that later. Got the list here. If I did not screw it up, we have 1848 gnome.org accounts on the 'gnomecvs' group. As we do not currently have any regular method of keeping track of who's active and who's not, though, many of them may have bouncing contact addresses or just not reply at all. Shame on us for this, I'll figure something out soon (have wanted to do it for years). Just shout when you need it. -- Guilherme de S. Pastore [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Good timing. I'm working on it. Have a draft of the survey itself. I'm > installing a PHP-based survey software now. Then will pass the survey by > board, r-t, and sysadmin team, then go about asking people to fill in. Have > not looked into getting the list of SVN users yet. Will get to that later. Should you need any help (now or in the future), I'm a webdev for living. My main interest is Python/Django but I've spent 9 years working with PHP. Feel free to yell if in need (my company donates some of my office time to GNOME hacking anyway). -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:25 AM, Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) wrote: > >> So you already on it or you are waiting for someone to get you th >> list of svn accounts? If latter is the case, It's pretty easily doable >> using git but unfortunately the dates in the git repos created through >> git-svn aren't correct (or it seems to be the case). I am no expert >> in svn but reading the output of `svn help log` i don't see it be >> done easily using svn. :( > > Good timing. I'm working on it. Have a draft of the survey itself. I'm > installing a PHP-based survey software now. Then will pass the survey by > board, r-t, and sysadmin team, then go about asking people to fill in. Have > not looked into getting the list of SVN users yet. Will get to that later. Cool! I thought the whole thing got forgotten. :) -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) wrote: > So you already on it or you are waiting for someone to get you th > list of svn accounts? If latter is the case, It's pretty easily doable > using git but unfortunately the dates in the git repos created through > git-svn aren't correct (or it seems to be the case). I am no expert > in svn but reading the output of `svn help log` i don't see it be > done easily using svn. :( Good timing. I'm working on it. Have a draft of the survey itself. I'm installing a PHP-based survey software now. Then will pass the survey by board, r-t, and sysadmin team, then go about asking people to fill in. Have not looked into getting the list of SVN users yet. Will get to that later. behdad ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hi! On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 1:04 AM, Vincent Untz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Le lundi 17 novembre 2008, à 17:56 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod a écrit : >> Owen Taylor wrote: >> > Question for gnome-infrastructure: How do we move forward on it? Do we >> > have an easier alternative at hand then just writing low-tech one off >> > application? >> >> I was thinking that we can either use the Election Committee's facilities, or >> use one of the freely available polling websites. > > The stuff from the election committee would need a few changes to work > with people with svn account instead of Foundation members. But that > should be doable if we can easily get a list of svn accounts. So you already on it or you are waiting for someone to get you th list of svn accounts? If latter is the case, It's pretty easily doable using git but unfortunately the dates in the git repos created through git-svn aren't correct (or it seems to be the case). I am no expert in svn but reading the output of `svn help log` i don't see it be done easily using svn. :( -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Le lundi 17 novembre 2008, à 17:56 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod a écrit : > Owen Taylor wrote: > > Question for gnome-infrastructure: How do we move forward on it? Do we > > have an easier alternative at hand then just writing low-tech one off > > application? > > I was thinking that we can either use the Election Committee's facilities, or > use one of the freely available polling websites. The stuff from the election committee would need a few changes to work with people with svn account instead of Foundation members. But that should be doable if we can easily get a list of svn accounts. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Owen Taylor wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 17:45 -0500, Shaun McCance wrote: >> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 23:23 +0100, BJörn Lindqvist wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> 2008/10/28 Mikael Hallendal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after a vote we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and vice verse. GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub modules, maintainers and thus preferences. >>> I think that is doubtful. Most people do not care what VCS GNOME uses. >>> For those who care, and like DVCS, their opinions are probably >>> something like this: >>> >>> svn 10 points >>> git 100 +/- 5 points >>> hg 100 +/- 5 points >>> bzr 100 +/- 5 points >>> >>> That is, it doesn't really matter what DVCS GNOME uses. They are all >>> great systems, all superior to svn. There _may_ be people who have >>> their favorite DVCS and would be deeply unhappy if their alternative >>> didn't win, but I think they are in a very (very) small minority, if >>> they even exists. I think keeping the GNOME developer environment >>> coherent is much more important than appeasing to individuals >>> preferences. >>> >>> Just have a vote about it. Voting is fun, encourages participation and >>> involvement, so make as many people eligible as possible. >> Why don't we put out a preliminary, non-binding poll to >> all active account holders? Something like this: >> >> Stuff I actively do (check all that apply): >> [ ] Active development of some set of modules >> [ ] Cherry-picking bug fixing on lots of modules >> [ ] Usability work on lots of modules >> [ ] Accessibility work on lots of modules >> [ ] Documentation >> [ ] Translation >> >> My take on VCS for Gnome: >> ( ) Keep svn >> ( ) Switch to git >> ( ) Switch to bzr >> ( ) Switch to hg >> ( ) Switch to anything distributed >> ( ) I just don't care >> ( ) Can I have cvs back please? >> >> The first question allows us to look at the numbers >> for interesting cross-sections of our contributors. >> Maybe there are other questions that would give us >> some meaningful breakdowns. > > This sounds like a good idea to me. Just poll all people with svn > access; people who haven't committed in years will largely self-select > out anyways. Interesting that you bring it up. We were talking about this at Speck Hackfest last week and we came to the same conclusion, and I added to my TODO list to do a poll of all active committers when I get back. > Might be interesting to ask about level familiarity and/or use of > different systems as well. > > Question for gnome-infrastructure: How do we move forward on it? Do we > have an easier alternative at hand then just writing low-tech one off > application? I was thinking that we can either use the Election Committee's facilities, or use one of the freely available polling websites. > - Owen behdad ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 17:45 -0500, Shaun McCance wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 23:23 +0100, BJörn Lindqvist wrote: > > Hello, > > > > 2008/10/28 Mikael Hallendal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after a > > > vote > > > we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and vice verse. > > > GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub modules, > > > maintainers and thus preferences. > > > > I think that is doubtful. Most people do not care what VCS GNOME uses. > > For those who care, and like DVCS, their opinions are probably > > something like this: > > > > svn 10 points > > git 100 +/- 5 points > > hg 100 +/- 5 points > > bzr 100 +/- 5 points > > > > That is, it doesn't really matter what DVCS GNOME uses. They are all > > great systems, all superior to svn. There _may_ be people who have > > their favorite DVCS and would be deeply unhappy if their alternative > > didn't win, but I think they are in a very (very) small minority, if > > they even exists. I think keeping the GNOME developer environment > > coherent is much more important than appeasing to individuals > > preferences. > > > > Just have a vote about it. Voting is fun, encourages participation and > > involvement, so make as many people eligible as possible. > > Why don't we put out a preliminary, non-binding poll to > all active account holders? Something like this: > > Stuff I actively do (check all that apply): > [ ] Active development of some set of modules > [ ] Cherry-picking bug fixing on lots of modules > [ ] Usability work on lots of modules > [ ] Accessibility work on lots of modules > [ ] Documentation > [ ] Translation > > My take on VCS for Gnome: > ( ) Keep svn > ( ) Switch to git > ( ) Switch to bzr > ( ) Switch to hg > ( ) Switch to anything distributed > ( ) I just don't care > ( ) Can I have cvs back please? > > The first question allows us to look at the numbers > for interesting cross-sections of our contributors. > Maybe there are other questions that would give us > some meaningful breakdowns. This sounds like a good idea to me. Just poll all people with svn access; people who haven't committed in years will largely self-select out anyways. Might be interesting to ask about level familiarity and/or use of different systems as well. Question for gnome-infrastructure: How do we move forward on it? Do we have an easier alternative at hand then just writing low-tech one off application? - Owen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hi! On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Olav Vitters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > If I'd enable property setting you could just do a svn sync. The reason >> > you can't is that I don't trust it. You could change svn:author etc for >> > any revision. I don't like it... such changes could be mailed and so on, >> > but I don't think people will notice. Meaning: affects security. >> >> Thanks for the explanation but i am missing your point here? > > With svn sync you could import a dump with history to GNOME yourself, if > I'd enable that. I understood that but was politely trying to say that this isn't relevant if you don't allow it. But now i understand the relevance after reading your explanation. >> > correct >> > timestamps, etc. >> >> Yikes! I didn't notice that one. :( > > It can be reimported if you want. OK, then please make it so. :) Just of my info, would you be able to retain the few (1-3) new (not imported from o-hand svn) commits? I need to know this so i keep them somewhere and commit them after you've done your magic. > Regarding not responding: I was a bit busy with other stuff (movie, DoS, > SVN repos format stuff, etc), so it didn't make sense responding if I > can't give an estimate. After that I forgot. NP! I wasn't blaming you for that, was just explaining why i did what i did. :) -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali Khattak FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:04:01PM +0200, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) wrote: > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Olav Vitters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [..] > conclusion since that is exactly how it seemed like. However, that > wasn't the point of my mail but to emphasize that it's been quite some > time that most of us want to move away from SVN and it doesn't seem to > be happening and the main reason is that we are divided on which VCS > to move to. I understood and agree. > >> 2. I want to move a module from o-hand SVN to gnome SVN while keeping > >> the history intact and seems the only way of achieving that is to wait > >> on bkor to get to import the svn dump. Don't get me wrong, I am not > >> saying bkor is taking very long but I have no way of knowing when > >> would he get time to do it. > > > > If I'd enable property setting you could just do a svn sync. The reason > > you can't is that I don't trust it. You could change svn:author etc for > > any revision. I don't like it... such changes could be mailed and so on, > > but I don't think people will notice. Meaning: affects security. > > Thanks for the explanation but i am missing your point here? With svn sync you could import a dump with history to GNOME yourself, if I'd enable that. > > correct > > timestamps, etc. > > Yikes! I didn't notice that one. :( It can be reimported if you want. >About doing it through git myself rather than waiting for you to do > it, I wouldn't have lost my patience if you had replied to my messages > on IRC asking for a rough estimate on when could you get to do it. If > i knew that i only need to wait for a few days, I would have waited > but you not answering me made me think that you are way too busy to do > it anytime soon. I am fine that you used Git. Just pointing out that you need go through a sysadmin not because of SVN, but more that allowing such activities is IMO complicated (as you could change any repos). And that I want to ensure that the usernames, paths etc are ok (e.g. if you'd load an svn dump as-is, then if you have a user 'hp' that at one point added exploitable code on purpose, when it is loaded into GNOME, it should be clear that the 'hp' is not the same as the GNOME SVN hp). Regarding not responding: I was a bit busy with other stuff (movie, DoS, SVN repos format stuff, etc), so it didn't make sense responding if I can't give an estimate. After that I forgot. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hi! > I have been using bzr-mirror for the past few months happily, thanks to John > Carr's work I can pull from either bzr-mirror or directly from svn, and push > to svn as if it was a bzr branch. > > I personally think that keeping svn, and maintaining bzr-mirror, git-mirror, > and hopefully an hg-mirror would make everyone happy. All of bzr, hg and git > provide a mean to interop with svn, while there is not always a way to > interop between the various DRCS that people tend to prefer, so maybe > sticking with svn for now would be the right choice ? If that configuration works for you, it doesn't mean it works for everyone. If I could manage to achieve the same with git-svn as I do with git, I'll happily accept this proposal but that is not the case. Please let's not getting into these dicussions (been there, done that) and focus: Most of us have been wanting to move to a DVCS and it's been a long time we've been justing wishing and sighing. Could we please just execute the proposal I made? -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali Khattak FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hi! On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:02 AM, Olav Vitters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 04:24:25PM +0200, Zeeshan Ali Khattak wrote: >> I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about >> migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's >> request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with > > It wasn't delayed at his request. We sat in a presentation room with no > preparation at all do decide on a DVCS. That is not how I environ a BoF. > We discussed later in another room, but as I didn't ask for the BoF, I > didn't do any real preparation. In the end there was no real decision to > be made. > > PS: As a BoF was planned, I asked if a few Bazaar devs could be > available for any technical questions, plus to check with GNOME > developers regarding Bazaar (to ensure it is ok). This is the reason > they were there, it wasn't thought up at Canonical. Bringing this up now > as I heard some people made other conclusions. Thanks for the clarification. I think most people made the wrong conclusion since that is exactly how it seemed like. However, that wasn't the point of my mail but to emphasize that it's been quite some time that most of us want to move away from SVN and it doesn't seem to be happening and the main reason is that we are divided on which VCS to move to. >> 2. I want to move a module from o-hand SVN to gnome SVN while keeping >> the history intact and seems the only way of achieving that is to wait >> on bkor to get to import the svn dump. Don't get me wrong, I am not >> saying bkor is taking very long but I have no way of knowing when >> would he get time to do it. > > If I'd enable property setting you could just do a svn sync. The reason > you can't is that I don't trust it. You could change svn:author etc for > any revision. I don't like it... such changes could be mailed and so on, > but I don't think people will notice. Meaning: affects security. Thanks for the explanation but i am missing your point here? > Now that you imported using Git it still isn't the import that I > would've done. Meaning: not everything under your userid, Well, there was only one commit that wasn't by me and that was by mallum when he created the repo for me. I seriously doubt mallum minds if that commit got lost during this migration. > correct > timestamps, etc. Yikes! I didn't notice that one. :( About doing it through git myself rather than waiting for you to do it, I wouldn't have lost my patience if you had replied to my messages on IRC asking for a rough estimate on when could you get to do it. If i knew that i only need to wait for a few days, I would have waited but you not answering me made me think that you are way too busy to do it anytime soon. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali Khattak FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Ali Sabil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> I >> personally think that keeping svn, and maintaining bzr-mirror, git-mirror, >> and hopefully an hg-mirror would make everyone happy. All of bzr, hg and git >> provide a mean to interop with svn, while there is not always a way to >> interop between the various DRCS that people tend to prefer, so maybe >> sticking with svn for now would be the right choice ? On 10/29/08, John Carr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > As much as I personally agree with the sentiment, unfortunately > git-svn is just not as mature and useful as bzr-svn. While you can > just 'bzr push' like we already had bzr.gnome.org all along, git-svn > has rules and limitations on what does and doesnt work (and maybe what > is and isnt safe to try and do...) +1 git-svn is a very limited tool, and should really be used in a transitional phase or if the project is not moving away from svn at all, really. Since the point is to move to a newer system so that the project can provide a richer history, better branching, easier maintenance, etc, then keeping svn and having people use *-svn tools to push to it from whatever vcs they prefer is not really helping that point. I gather that what we want is to have richer features so that 1) developers have an easier job of maintaining modules, 2) it's easier to track problems, 3) easier to experiment with new code, easier branching and merging, 4) easier for sysadmins to maintain. Then, what we need to do is ask the people that use it actively to say which vcs they prefer, and then choose the one that is most aligned with what the majority of people need, the one that makes their job easier. Discussing which one is best is irrelevant in this scenario, imho. Obviously it won't be consensual, but it won't certainly be worse than the current situation, since a lot of people that use the repository are not actually using svn anymore anyway. -- andreia gaita mono hacker http://www.worldofcoding.com http://mono-project.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Ali Sabil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:18 AM, John Carr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> > Claudio Saavedra wrote: >> >> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: >> Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we >> already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. >> >>> I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. >> >> >> >> I actually think that, if any, the vote should be down to the GNOME SVN >> >> users. But all of them (or at least those who care enough to vote). >> > >> > Agreed. Only recently active SVN users. Why should past contributors >> > who do >> > not commit anymore decide what DVCS tool *I* use? >> > >> >> Claudio >> > >> > behdad >> > >> >> Don't forget sysadmins. While not active SVN users, they will have to >> support whatever you demand.. Pretty sure they should have a say.. >> >> Personally, no one is telling me what DVCS tool *I* use. Its like >> mandating I use emacs for GNOME development. Ain't gonna happen... > > I have been using bzr-mirror for the past few months happily, thanks to John > Carr's work I can pull from either bzr-mirror or directly from svn, and push > to svn as if it was a bzr branch. > > I personally think that keeping svn, and maintaining bzr-mirror, git-mirror, > and hopefully an hg-mirror would make everyone happy. All of bzr, hg and git > provide a mean to interop with svn, while there is not always a way to > interop between the various DRCS that people tend to prefer, so maybe > sticking with svn for now would be the right choice ? > > -- > Ali As much as I personally agree with the sentiment, unfortunately git-svn is just not as mature and useful as bzr-svn. While you can just 'bzr push' like we already had bzr.gnome.org all along, git-svn has rules and limitations on what does and doesnt work (and maybe what is and isnt safe to try and do...) John ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:18 AM, John Carr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Claudio Saavedra wrote: > >> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: > Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we > already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. > >>> I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. > >> > >> I actually think that, if any, the vote should be down to the GNOME SVN > >> users. But all of them (or at least those who care enough to vote). > > > > Agreed. Only recently active SVN users. Why should past contributors > who do > > not commit anymore decide what DVCS tool *I* use? > > > >> Claudio > > > > behdad > > > > Don't forget sysadmins. While not active SVN users, they will have to > support whatever you demand.. Pretty sure they should have a say.. > > Personally, no one is telling me what DVCS tool *I* use. Its like > mandating I use emacs for GNOME development. Ain't gonna happen... > I have been using bzr-mirror for the past few months happily, thanks to John Carr's work I can pull from either bzr-mirror or directly from svn, and push to svn as if it was a bzr branch. I personally think that keeping svn, and maintaining bzr-mirror, git-mirror, and hopefully an hg-mirror would make everyone happy. All of bzr, hg and git provide a mean to interop with svn, while there is not always a way to interop between the various DRCS that people tend to prefer, so maybe sticking with svn for now would be the right choice ? -- Ali ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Claudio Saavedra wrote: >> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. >>> I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. >> >> I actually think that, if any, the vote should be down to the GNOME SVN >> users. But all of them (or at least those who care enough to vote). > > Agreed. Only recently active SVN users. Why should past contributors who do > not commit anymore decide what DVCS tool *I* use? > >> Claudio > > behdad > Don't forget sysadmins. While not active SVN users, they will have to support whatever you demand.. Pretty sure they should have a say.. Personally, no one is telling me what DVCS tool *I* use. Its like mandating I use emacs for GNOME development. Ain't gonna happen... ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 04:24:25PM +0200, Zeeshan Ali Khattak wrote: > I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about > migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's > request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with It wasn't delayed at his request. We sat in a presentation room with no preparation at all do decide on a DVCS. That is not how I environ a BoF. We discussed later in another room, but as I didn't ask for the BoF, I didn't do any real preparation. In the end there was no real decision to be made. PS: As a BoF was planned, I asked if a few Bazaar devs could be available for any technical questions, plus to check with GNOME developers regarding Bazaar (to ensure it is ok). This is the reason they were there, it wasn't thought up at Canonical. Bringing this up now as I heard some people made other conclusions. > 2. I want to move a module from o-hand SVN to gnome SVN while keeping > the history intact and seems the only way of achieving that is to wait > on bkor to get to import the svn dump. Don't get me wrong, I am not > saying bkor is taking very long but I have no way of knowing when > would he get time to do it. If I'd enable property setting you could just do a svn sync. The reason you can't is that I don't trust it. You could change svn:author etc for any revision. I don't like it... such changes could be mailed and so on, but I don't think people will notice. Meaning: affects security. Now that you imported using Git it still isn't the import that I would've done. Meaning: not everything under your userid, correct timestamps, etc. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 23:23 +0100, BJörn Lindqvist wrote: > Hello, > > 2008/10/28 Mikael Hallendal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after a vote > > we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and vice verse. > > GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub modules, > > maintainers and thus preferences. > > I think that is doubtful. Most people do not care what VCS GNOME uses. > For those who care, and like DVCS, their opinions are probably > something like this: > > svn 10 points > git 100 +/- 5 points > hg 100 +/- 5 points > bzr 100 +/- 5 points > > That is, it doesn't really matter what DVCS GNOME uses. They are all > great systems, all superior to svn. There _may_ be people who have > their favorite DVCS and would be deeply unhappy if their alternative > didn't win, but I think they are in a very (very) small minority, if > they even exists. I think keeping the GNOME developer environment > coherent is much more important than appeasing to individuals > preferences. > > Just have a vote about it. Voting is fun, encourages participation and > involvement, so make as many people eligible as possible. Why don't we put out a preliminary, non-binding poll to all active account holders? Something like this: Stuff I actively do (check all that apply): [ ] Active development of some set of modules [ ] Cherry-picking bug fixing on lots of modules [ ] Usability work on lots of modules [ ] Accessibility work on lots of modules [ ] Documentation [ ] Translation My take on VCS for Gnome: ( ) Keep svn ( ) Switch to git ( ) Switch to bzr ( ) Switch to hg ( ) Switch to anything distributed ( ) I just don't care ( ) Can I have cvs back please? The first question allows us to look at the numbers for interesting cross-sections of our contributors. Maybe there are other questions that would give us some meaningful breakdowns. -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hello, 2008/10/28 Mikael Hallendal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after a vote > we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and vice verse. > GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub modules, > maintainers and thus preferences. I think that is doubtful. Most people do not care what VCS GNOME uses. For those who care, and like DVCS, their opinions are probably something like this: svn 10 points git 100 +/- 5 points hg 100 +/- 5 points bzr 100 +/- 5 points That is, it doesn't really matter what DVCS GNOME uses. They are all great systems, all superior to svn. There _may_ be people who have their favorite DVCS and would be deeply unhappy if their alternative didn't win, but I think they are in a very (very) small minority, if they even exists. I think keeping the GNOME developer environment coherent is much more important than appeasing to individuals preferences. Just have a vote about it. Voting is fun, encourages participation and involvement, so make as many people eligible as possible. -- mvh Björn ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Am Dienstag, den 28.10.2008, 17:50 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen: > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Dan Winship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > The big problem here is that you lose the ability for translators to > > commit directly to your repo. Which pretty much is going to have to mean > > "you lose the translators". > > Transifex is a possible solution to this problem: http://transifex.org/ ...and for the records: There's currently work/discussion going on to merge Transifex and damned-lies (the software running behind l10n.gnome.org ). andre -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | failed http://www.iomc.de/ | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Dan Winship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Behdad Esfahbod wrote: >> Can we get away from central hosting on gnome.org servers? Don't >> know. > > The big problem here is that you lose the ability for translators to > commit directly to your repo. Which pretty much is going to have to mean > "you lose the translators". Transifex is a possible solution to this problem: http://transifex.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
2008/10/28 Owen Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 18:55 +0100, Mikael Hallendal wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after >> a vote we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and >> vice verse. GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub >> modules, maintainers and thus preferences. >> >> I personally think our time and energy would be better spent on >> finding ways to manage GNOME development with this diversity of >> version control system (and public repositories). >> >> Translations is often brought up as a tricky part for this, can we >> handle them in a way where they are agnostic to the VCS system the >> modules happen to be in. I know back in the days when we had Planner >> on Codefactory servers it was a pain as the translation "system" we >> used required the translators to commit directly into the CVS/SVN >> modules. >> >> Can we come up with a better way of handling this? > > I think the question is "how big do we want to the barrier to entry to > be?". How many version control systems do you have to learn to > contribute to GNOME? It's not only a question of entry barrier anymore though. The SCM tools have advanced beyond what SVN can offer, it's only natural that developers adapt these new (and usually bettter!) ways of working. Once they get the taste of the "good stuff", the motivation to use the old (and now clunky-looking) system goes way down. The other, IMO equally important question is how long are the active contributors and developers willing to keep using an inferior tool just in the name of giving less-technical people a better chance to contribute? Or will they (as it looks to be already) flock in to multiple directions where they can use tools *they* feel are up to the task. After all, it's not good if the only thing contributed to the projects in GNOME SVN is new translations after all the coders quit using it... -- Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Powered by http://movial.fi Interesting stuff at http://syslog.movial.fi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 14:56 -0400, Hubert Figuiere wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 17:55 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: > > Lies! We should totally be using a shared DropBox account with all the > > GNOME inside! ;) > > Fall back to the BitKeeper effect[1]? No thanks. Spotting a joke fail. :) K, ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 17:55 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: > Lies! We should totally be using a shared DropBox account with all the > GNOME inside! ;) Fall back to the BitKeeper effect[1]? No thanks. Hub [1] DropBox is not Free Software. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
28 okt 2008 kl. 19.05 skrev Behdad Esfahbod: Mikael Hallendal wrote: Hi, I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after a vote we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and vice verse. GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub modules, maintainers and thus preferences. I personally think our time and energy would be better spent on finding ways to manage GNOME development with this diversity of version control system (and public repositories). Translations is often brought up as a tricky part for this, can we handle them in a way where they are agnostic to the VCS system the modules happen to be in. I know back in the days when we had Planner on Codefactory servers it was a pain as the translation "system" we used required the translators to commit directly into the CVS/SVN modules. It's not just translation. I proposed this before but Olav says two systems is simply not within our sysadmin budget. Every script needs to be taught to handle both, etc. Ah, What I meant was mainly that we can put one system on GNOME infrastructure but I think that people already using Git will continue to do so even after (or at least some of them). Unless we have someone who can do the actual job it doesn't matter much what we vote and if we only got a sysadmin that can consider setting one of the systems up it only matters if that system wins or we are stuck waiting for a sys admin to come along and offers to set it up and maintain it for us. Can we get away from central hosting on gnome.org servers? Don't know. That seems to have been what this whole situation has been getting us to. Federico hosts his projects on gitorious. Myself and many around me just push their git trees on their freedesktop.org account. Bzr-liking people use launchpad. That's what I meant, this is the reality we are already living in. Maybe our time is better spent on making sure this reality works for our product. // Micke What I like to see is that the release team to shows some leadership and sit down and decide this. I'm sure either way we decide we can find someone to do the actual work. behdad -- Mikael Hallendal Imendio AB - Expert solutions in GTK+ http://www.imendio.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Mikael Hallendal wrote: > Translations is often brought up as a tricky part for this, can we > handle them in a way where they are agnostic to the VCS system the > modules happen to be in. We already have a lot of the logic; if you've got jhbuild set up, "jhbuild update MODULENAME" will check out any module, getting the correct branch from whatever VCS it happens to be in. We could make it even easier. We could even make it possible to do basic commits from "jhbuild". (You don't need to worry about creating branches and doing merges and stuff if you're just checking out a clean tree, making some changes, and then committing them.) Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Can we get away from central hosting on gnome.org servers? Don't > know. The big problem here is that you lose the ability for translators to commit directly to your repo. Which pretty much is going to have to mean "you lose the translators". -- Dan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 18:55 +0100, Mikael Hallendal wrote: > Hi, > > I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after > a vote we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and > vice verse. GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub > modules, maintainers and thus preferences. > > I personally think our time and energy would be better spent on > finding ways to manage GNOME development with this diversity of > version control system (and public repositories). > > Translations is often brought up as a tricky part for this, can we > handle them in a way where they are agnostic to the VCS system the > modules happen to be in. I know back in the days when we had Planner > on Codefactory servers it was a pain as the translation "system" we > used required the translators to commit directly into the CVS/SVN > modules. > > Can we come up with a better way of handling this? I think the question is "how big do we want to the barrier to entry to be?". How many version control systems do you have to learn to contribute to GNOME? Sure, the open source community has already created a huge problem for itself in this area, but if we can't make a decision within GNOME, and actively contribute to the disaster, that's incredibly sad. I'm confident we can come up with the sysadmin mojo to support whatever decision we make. - Owen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Mikael Hallendal wrote: > Hi, > > I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after a > vote we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and vice > verse. GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub > modules, maintainers and thus preferences. > > I personally think our time and energy would be better spent on finding > ways to manage GNOME development with this diversity of version control > system (and public repositories). > > Translations is often brought up as a tricky part for this, can we > handle them in a way where they are agnostic to the VCS system the > modules happen to be in. I know back in the days when we had Planner on > Codefactory servers it was a pain as the translation "system" we used > required the translators to commit directly into the CVS/SVN modules. It's not just translation. I proposed this before but Olav says two systems is simply not within our sysadmin budget. Every script needs to be taught to handle both, etc. Can we get away from central hosting on gnome.org servers? Don't know. That seems to have been what this whole situation has been getting us to. Federico hosts his projects on gitorious. Myself and many around me just push their git trees on their freedesktop.org account. Bzr-liking people use launchpad. What I like to see is that the release team to shows some leadership and sit down and decide this. I'm sure either way we decide we can find someone to do the actual work. behdad > Can we come up with a better way of handling this? > > We already have our stack spread out over a number of different > repository services and VCS systems, I think it's time we come to term > with the fact that this is the way GNOME is built (and imho should be > built). > > Cheers, > Micke > > 28 okt 2008 kl. 17.00 skrev Behdad Esfahbod: > >> Claudio Saavedra wrote: >>> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: > Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we > already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. >>> >>> I actually think that, if any, the vote should be down to the GNOME SVN >>> users. But all of them (or at least those who care enough to vote). >> >> Agreed. Only recently active SVN users. Why should past contributors >> who do >> not commit anymore decide what DVCS tool *I* use? >> >>> Claudio >> >> behdad >> ___ >> desktop-devel-list mailing list >> desktop-devel-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hi, I can't really see us coming to a consensus on this topic. Even after a vote we would have people continuing to use Bazaar if Git win and vice verse. GNOME is by nature a distributed project with a lot of sub modules, maintainers and thus preferences. I personally think our time and energy would be better spent on finding ways to manage GNOME development with this diversity of version control system (and public repositories). Translations is often brought up as a tricky part for this, can we handle them in a way where they are agnostic to the VCS system the modules happen to be in. I know back in the days when we had Planner on Codefactory servers it was a pain as the translation "system" we used required the translators to commit directly into the CVS/SVN modules. Can we come up with a better way of handling this? We already have our stack spread out over a number of different repository services and VCS systems, I think it's time we come to term with the fact that this is the way GNOME is built (and imho should be built). Cheers, Micke 28 okt 2008 kl. 17.00 skrev Behdad Esfahbod: Claudio Saavedra wrote: On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. I actually think that, if any, the vote should be down to the GNOME SVN users. But all of them (or at least those who care enough to vote). Agreed. Only recently active SVN users. Why should past contributors who do not commit anymore decide what DVCS tool *I* use? Claudio behdad ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Mikael Hallendal Imendio AB - Expert solutions in GTK+ http://www.imendio.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
John Carr wrote: > > 1. I don't see any way of using git mirrors (don't know of bazaar) in > > jhbuild setup. > > Help wanted: > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=538507 I should really find some time to work on this; hopefully this week-end. Frederic ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 17:55 +0100, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Karl Lattimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > They both suck, lets use wizbit for a communally continuously syncing > > DVCS-file-system where everyone can edit and never need to care about > > pushing or pulling... > > Lies! We should totally be using a shared DropBox account with all the > GNOME inside! ;) > *evil rant* *flame* *evil rant* *mines bigger than yours* *evil rant* *evil rant* get the picture? :) BR, K, ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Karl Lattimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > They both suck, lets use wizbit for a communally continuously syncing > DVCS-file-system where everyone can edit and never need to care about > pushing or pulling... Lies! We should totally be using a shared DropBox account with all the GNOME inside! ;) -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 12:48 -0400, Thomas Thurman wrote: > Ysgrifennodd Richard Hughes: > > I've tried bazaar, but it was too slow, and > > Please, can we not rehash all the "Bazaar was too slow back when I tried > it in 1905!" and "git is so complicated you need a PhD in > torvaldsology!" arguments in this thread? We've done them all a million > times already and there's nothing new to be said. This thread is about > how to make the decision, about who should be asked and how, not > advocacy about which decision to make. They both suck, lets use wizbit for a communally continuously syncing DVCS-file-system where everyone can edit and never need to care about pushing or pulling... /me living the dream :) BR, K ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Ysgrifennodd Richard Hughes: > I've tried bazaar, but it was too slow, and Please, can we not rehash all the "Bazaar was too slow back when I tried it in 1905!" and "git is so complicated you need a PhD in torvaldsology!" arguments in this thread? We've done them all a million times already and there's nothing new to be said. This thread is about how to make the decision, about who should be asked and how, not advocacy about which decision to make. Thomas -- Thomas Thurman, tthurman at gnome, http://blogs.gnome.org/tthurman The vending machine is far too heavy to move. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 16:24 +0200, Zeeshan Ali Khattak wrote: > Hi everyone! > I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about > migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's > request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with > SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our > community so the only way I see out of this is: This sounds dangerously close to choosing the colour of a bike shed, but for what it's worth the only reason gnome-packagekit is not is in gnome SVN is that I need git. SVN is like marijuana -- pretty addictive, but git is like heroin. You really can't live without heroin when you've got hooked. I've tried bazaar, but it was too slow, and I had already had to learn one DVCS for freedesktop and the kernel. Even if git is technically inferior we should choose git just because these two big super-projects have already given it the blessing and my tiny brain can't remember all the commands for two different systems. So, if you migrate to git, +1 from me. If you migrate to something that isn't git, you better have a pretty compelling argument. Richard. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Claudio Saavedra wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: >>> Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we >>> already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. >> I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. > > I actually think that, if any, the vote should be down to the GNOME SVN > users. But all of them (or at least those who care enough to vote). Agreed. Only recently active SVN users. Why should past contributors who do not commit anymore decide what DVCS tool *I* use? > Claudio behdad ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Zeeshan Ali Khattak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi everyone! > I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about > migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's > request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with > SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our > community so the only way I see out of this is: > > 1. Get someone (known and trusted) to volunteer to set-up and maintain > the repository. I think Olav likes bazaar so he would volunteer for > that? > 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we > simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably > don't count :)) [...] Ummm... So, the discussion will be just about bazaar and git? What happend with Mercurial? I see the three of them on http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM If there was some earlier discussion about it were you decide to leave Mercurial out, just tell me, please. BTW, I think as well (as Claudio say) that should be the current SVN GNOME users (which fight against the SVN repo everyday) who might decide. Cheers -- Juan Jesús Ojeda Croissier Emergya Consultoría / http://www.emergya.es Avda. de la Innovación, 3 (Edif. Hércules), Mód 12-13 E41020 Sevilla Tfno: +34 954 51 75 77 Fax: +34 954 51 64 73 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hi, John Carr wrote: > I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. I think module maintainers (some of whom aren't even foundation members) is a better "electorate". I for one have not been a regular developer for quite some time & wouldn't have anything useful to contribute to the discussion, module maintainers & active committers are the ones who'll be using this every day. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Germán Póo-Caamaño <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: >> [...] >> bkor isnt the only sysadmin, but who are the others and how much do >> they do.. the whole sysadmin process is not very transparent. >> Shouldn't it be? I would *love* to help out the sysadmins, maybe even >> offer them some of my time. Where is it documented on how to be >> considered as a sysadmin? Even a junior sysadmin that can just set up >> mailing lists and do svn imports... I hang around #sysadmin but there >> is only so much i can suggest people try before i have to leave them >> to the irc gods > > http://sysadmin.gnome.org/helping.html > > -- > Germán Póo-Caamaño > Concepción - Chile > http://www.gnome.org/~gpoo/ > Thanks for that, embarrassed i missed it. i'll sign up to gnome-infrastructure and start pimping myself post haste. I might suggest my first job as fixing that page... "Implementation of new systems (LDAP user directory, better CVS mirroring system, ssh based CVS access are some of the current projects.)"... New CVS systems for GNOME! W, take that Git :P John ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: > [...] > bkor isnt the only sysadmin, but who are the others and how much do > they do.. the whole sysadmin process is not very transparent. > Shouldn't it be? I would *love* to help out the sysadmins, maybe even > offer them some of my time. Where is it documented on how to be > considered as a sysadmin? Even a junior sysadmin that can just set up > mailing lists and do svn imports... I hang around #sysadmin but there > is only so much i can suggest people try before i have to leave them > to the irc gods http://sysadmin.gnome.org/helping.html -- Germán Póo-Caamaño Concepción - Chile http://www.gnome.org/~gpoo/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Shaun McCance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 16:24 +0200, Zeeshan Ali Khattak wrote: >> Hi everyone! >> I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about >> migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's >> request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with >> SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our >> community so the only way I see out of this is: >> >> 1. Get someone (known and trusted) to volunteer to set-up and maintain >> the repository. I think Olav likes bazaar so he would volunteer for >> that? >> 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we >> simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably >> don't count :)) > > I'm trying to understand exactly your proposal. Are > you proposing we have both a git server and a bzr > server, each with a full import of all modules from > svn? And then developers can choose which one they > develop with? > > Ooh, a numbered list! > > 1) What happens if multiple developers of a module > each choose differently? All right, maybe we can > expect some level of communication and agreement > amont co-maintainers. > > 2) What happens when we pick one? Can we cleanly > get everything off the losing server? > > 3) What are translators and documentation writers > supposed to do? Do we honestly expect them to look > at the histories to decide which SCM to use for each > module? That sounds infeasible. > > 4) What metric we use for picking one is going to be > the subject of much controversy. Developer activity? > Module activity? Counted by number of developers? > Number of commits? Size of commits? > > Believe me, I desperately want to not be using svn > anymore. And if I thought we could feasibly work > with a live-and-let-live, use-what-you-want setup, > I'd be all over that. I believe what he's saying is: Find someone who's willing to take care of $VCS1, $VCS2. If nobody shows up to support $VCS1, then we use $VCS2, visa versa. If we have maintainers for both, we vote on one. If we try to choose one on merit alone, we'll be at this in 2016, as they've both got plenty of merit to be our choice as shown by rounds of debate. As much as I'd hate to have to learn yet another VCS (if it came to that), even I recognize that whichever we choose is better than what we have. -A. Walton > -- > Shaun > > > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 15:10 +, John Carr wrote: > > Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we > > already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. > > I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. I actually think that, if any, the vote should be down to the GNOME SVN users. But all of them (or at least those who care enough to vote). Claudio ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi! > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Thomas Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I don't think it's a secret that I like one over the other, but I'd >> rather either of them than sticking with svn. > > Same feelings here. > >>> 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we >>> simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably >>> don't count :)) >> >> Why 50? Can't we canvass the whole Foundation? > > Hm.. don't know, just what came to my mind at the time or writing. > :) I am afraid if we go for the whole foundation, people like me who > talk more and do little will also get counted and maybe we want to > avoid that? > > -- > Regards, > > Zeeshan Ali Khattak > FSF member#5124 > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > Don't put yourself down - the fact is you made it through the foundation membership process.. You've shown the guys that manage that process that your a good GNOMie. The power users matter for sure, but some of their arguments against bazaar have been "i dont like python" and "i cant be arsed to learn a new tool"... Any and all foundation members are entitled to a say. Actually, shouldn't all SVN account holders be entitled to a say too... ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 16:24 +0200, Zeeshan Ali Khattak wrote: > Hi everyone! > I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about > migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's > request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with > SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our > community so the only way I see out of this is: > > 1. Get someone (known and trusted) to volunteer to set-up and maintain > the repository. I think Olav likes bazaar so he would volunteer for > that? > 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we > simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably > don't count :)) I'm trying to understand exactly your proposal. Are you proposing we have both a git server and a bzr server, each with a full import of all modules from svn? And then developers can choose which one they develop with? Ooh, a numbered list! 1) What happens if multiple developers of a module each choose differently? All right, maybe we can expect some level of communication and agreement amont co-maintainers. 2) What happens when we pick one? Can we cleanly get everything off the losing server? 3) What are translators and documentation writers supposed to do? Do we honestly expect them to look at the histories to decide which SCM to use for each module? That sounds infeasible. 4) What metric we use for picking one is going to be the subject of much controversy. Developer activity? Module activity? Counted by number of developers? Number of commits? Size of commits? Believe me, I desperately want to not be using svn anymore. And if I thought we could feasibly work with a live-and-let-live, use-what-you-want setup, I'd be all over that. -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Zeeshan Ali Khattak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi everyone! > I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about > migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's > request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with > SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our > community so the only way I see out of this is: > > 1. Get someone (known and trusted) to volunteer to set-up and maintain > the repository. I think Olav likes bazaar so he would volunteer for > that? > 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we > simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably > don't count :)) > > Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we > already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. I think the vote should be down to the foundation members. > The reason i bring this up is: > > 1. I don't see any way of using git mirrors (don't know of bazaar) in > jhbuild setup. Help wanted: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=538507 > 2. I want to move a module from o-hand SVN to gnome SVN while keeping > the history intact and seems the only way of achieving that is to wait > on bkor to get to import the svn dump. Don't get me wrong, I am not > saying bkor is taking very long but I have no way of knowing when > would he get time to do it. bkor isnt the only sysadmin, but who are the others and how much do they do.. the whole sysadmin process is not very transparent. Shouldn't it be? I would *love* to help out the sysadmins, maybe even offer them some of my time. Where is it documented on how to be considered as a sysadmin? Even a junior sysadmin that can just set up mailing lists and do svn imports... I hang around #sysadmin but there is only so much i can suggest people try before i have to leave them to the irc gods John ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hi! On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Thomas Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't think it's a secret that I like one over the other, but I'd > rather either of them than sticking with svn. Same feelings here. >> 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we >> simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably >> don't count :)) > > Why 50? Can't we canvass the whole Foundation? Hm.. don't know, just what came to my mind at the time or writing. :) I am afraid if we go for the whole foundation, people like me who talk more and do little will also get counted and maybe we want to avoid that? -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali Khattak FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 16:24 +0200, Zeeshan Ali Khattak wrote: > Hi everyone! > I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about > migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's > request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with > SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our > community so the only way I see out of this is: AFAIK, there were a lot of issues to avoid taking any decision. At the end of the day, the sysadmins team (in particular Olav) will need to deal with it and they requested information for different topics. And none of the DVCS were solving that issues. So, it was in the hands of every dvcs supporter to fix those issues. > 1. Get someone (known and trusted) to volunteer to set-up and maintain > the repository. I think Olav likes bazaar so he would volunteer for > that? > 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we > simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably > don't count :)) I think it is a matter of which one is ready (and friendly) from a gnome sysadmin's point of view. If you would like to know which are those issues, you can take a look at http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM and try to solve them for whichever is your favourite DVCS :-) Regards, -- Germán Póo-Caamaño Concepción - Chile http://www.gnome.org/~gpoo/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Ysgrifennodd Zeeshan Ali Khattak: > Hi everyone! > I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about > migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's > request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with > SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our > community so the only way I see out of this is: I don't think it's a secret that I like one over the other, but I'd rather either of them than sticking with svn. > 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we > simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably > don't count :)) Why 50? Can't we canvass the whole Foundation? > Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we > already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. Well said. Thomas -- Thomas Thurman, tthurman at gnome, http://blogs.gnome.org/tthurman "A bearded pirate appears, catches sight of the dwarf and runs away. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Zeeshan Ali Khattak wrote: Hi everyone! I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our community so the only way I see out of this is: 1. Get someone (known and trusted) to volunteer to set-up and maintain the repository. I think Olav likes bazaar so he would volunteer for that? 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably don't count :)) +1 Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. Right, let's avoid that. No technical discussion in this thread please. Johan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: DVCS
Hi everyone! I remember that at GUADEC, we were seriously thinking about migrating to git but the decision was postponed on Mark Shuttleworth's request. It's been some months since that and we are still stuck with SVN. AFAIK both git and bazaar have very strong supporters in our community so the only way I see out of this is: 1. Get someone (known and trusted) to volunteer to set-up and maintain the repository. I think Olav likes bazaar so he would volunteer for that? 2. Assuming that we get volunteers for both the repository types, we simply vote amongst the top 50 contributers (i myself most probably don't count :)) Lets not turn this into yet another bazaar vs. git war cause we already had plenty of that and nothing good comes out of that. The reason i bring this up is: 1. I don't see any way of using git mirrors (don't know of bazaar) in jhbuild setup. 2. I want to move a module from o-hand SVN to gnome SVN while keeping the history intact and seems the only way of achieving that is to wait on bkor to get to import the svn dump. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying bkor is taking very long but I have no way of knowing when would he get time to do it. -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali Khattak FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
