Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
If anyone is interested in my proposal for DE-specific keys, I've written a proposal for how the Desktop Entry Specification could be updated. This support could be used to implement the naming mentioned, that is calling it System Settings in KDE, and KDE System Settings elsewhere - without new desktop files. I'm attaching the proposal. However, I do not have the time or willpower to argue for it. If someone finds it useful, feel free to make something out of it. (implementing it, however, is trivial) For my original suggestion, see http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-develm=131160689716557w=2 (but the example there is accidentally inverted). On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Shaun McCance sha...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, 2011-08-10 at 13:47 +0200, todd rme wrote: On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 4 August 2011 07:27, George Spelvin li...@horizon.com wrote: I think what is needed is a series of more specific alternate names in a .desktop file, with more levels than the current GenericName and Name. I think the KDE system settings desktop file just needs an addition of: OnlyShowIn=KDE; Richard. It has already been explained why this is not sufficient. System settings is needed to configure many aspects of KDE programs. Doing this will leave Gnome users unable to configure any KDE programs they use. I already pointed out a solution that makes it System Settings in KDE and KDE System Settings in other desktops. The KDE developers seemed to agree to this. The problem is solved. Please let's end this thread and get back to writing great free software. Thanks, Shaun desktop-spec-update2 Description: Binary data ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Wed, 2011-08-10 at 13:47 +0200, todd rme wrote: On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 4 August 2011 07:27, George Spelvin li...@horizon.com wrote: I think what is needed is a series of more specific alternate names in a .desktop file, with more levels than the current GenericName and Name. I think the KDE system settings desktop file just needs an addition of: OnlyShowIn=KDE; Richard. It has already been explained why this is not sufficient. System settings is needed to configure many aspects of KDE programs. Doing this will leave Gnome users unable to configure any KDE programs they use. I already pointed out a solution that makes it System Settings in KDE and KDE System Settings in other desktops. The KDE developers seemed to agree to this. The problem is solved. Please let's end this thread and get back to writing great free software. Thanks, Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Wed, 2011-08-10 at 13:47 +0200, todd rme wrote: On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 4 August 2011 07:27, George Spelvin li...@horizon.com wrote: I think what is needed is a series of more specific alternate names in a .desktop file, with more levels than the current GenericName and Name. I think the KDE system settings desktop file just needs an addition of: OnlyShowIn=KDE; Richard. It has already been explained why this is not sufficient. System settings is needed to configure many aspects of KDE programs. Doing this will leave Gnome users unable to configure any KDE programs they use. I already pointed out a solution that makes it System Settings in KDE and KDE System Settings in other desktops. The KDE developers seemed to agree to this. The problem is solved. Please let's end this thread and get back to writing great free software. Thanks, Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On 4 August 2011 07:27, George Spelvin li...@horizon.com wrote: I think what is needed is a series of more specific alternate names in a .desktop file, with more levels than the current GenericName and Name. I think the KDE system settings desktop file just needs an addition of: OnlyShowIn=KDE; Richard. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 4 August 2011 07:27, George Spelvin li...@horizon.com wrote: I think what is needed is a series of more specific alternate names in a .desktop file, with more levels than the current GenericName and Name. I think the KDE system settings desktop file just needs an addition of: OnlyShowIn=KDE; Richard. It has already been explained why this is not sufficient. System settings is needed to configure many aspects of KDE programs. Doing this will leave Gnome users unable to configure any KDE programs they use. -Todd ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
I think what is needed is a series of more specific alternate names in a .desktop file, with more levels than the current GenericName and Name. By default, applications get the simplest name. If there is a collision, *both* get promoted to the next most specific name. E.g. you might have name1=Image Viewer name2=Image Viewer (kview) name3=Image Viewer (kview 3.5.9) while another application might have name1=Image Viewer name2=Image Viewer (xv) name3=Image Viewer (xv 3.10a) So if you only have one application of a particular type installed, you get the simple generic name. If you have multiples, you get to choose between Amarok, Clementine, Rhythmbox, Banshee, Gudyadequ, alsaplayer, etc. In the current dispute, it would be System Settings (KDE) and System Settings (Gnome). A user would only see the disambiguation suffix if they had both installed. You might even, as in the example I gave, include the version number so you can install multiple versions at once. (The overdesigner in me is thinking of an alternate menu implementation that uses the collising name as a submenu name, and the more specific names an entries below that, but maybe KISS is more appropriate here. Certainly even a design that *allows* such a thing should also allow not bothering.) This nicely avoids trying to divide desktops into primarily Gnome or primarily KDE to decide who gets the generic name. The answer is that nobody does. If I share an office with Joe Bloggs and Joe Shmoe, then I'm going to use their more specific names to refer to *both* of them. One naming suggestion I'd make would be that a pre-beta piece of software should probably avoid using the fully generic name, until it's stable and feature-complete enough to be the only such tool on a non-technical user's system. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Hello Ben, On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 20:21 +1200, Ben Cooksley wrote: To all concerned developers, As you may or may not be aware, the name System Settings for an application is currently in use by KDE. A recent renaming by your GNOME control center developers to this name creates a naming conflict. This naming conflict will cause severe problems for users as a result. It will also cause problems for those members of the KDE Community supporting the usage of KDE applications on GNOME, as it will not be possible to adjust the settings used by KDE applications. This will be because they will both appear, leading to GNOME packagers stupidly patching the system to not show the KDE System Settings under GNOME. As KDE occupied this name first, it is ours as a result, and I will NOT be relinquishing it to satisfy your personal (selfish) desires, which will cause numerous problems for users on both sides. System Settings cannot just be shown on KDE, as the application is used to configure multiple settings shared between KDE applications such as Localisation (language, region, currency, calendar), Style, Colours, Fonts among others. As KDE System Settings maintainer, I request that you immediately rename it once again to another name which is not in conflict. I believe the problem was resolved without requiring any changes on the GNOME side (from reading the thread). Let me know if there's still things you think should be discussed. Cheers /One of the gnome-control-center maintainers back from holidays ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 8:04 AM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: On Monday, July 25, 2011 10:30:46 Lydia Pintscher wrote: This whole debate is way too heated and I'd like to take this out ofthe arena. Are there 2 or 3 people on the GNOME side that areavailable to talk this through and find a solution? Ideally whoevermaintains system settings on the GNOME side would be one of them.I'd like to work with them and Ben on finding a good solution. Has anyone stepped up for this yet? It's something that deserves resolution and Lydia is willing to help facilitate, now we just need the relevant people involved to participate. I don't foresee it being a long process, but one that ought to be taken on and gotten out of the way. Hopefully those involved in the relevant GNOME and the KDE projects can appreciate this on behalf of our users and, with Lydia's help in keeping things constructive and out of the bikeshed, we can quickly put this behind us and move on to bigger and better things. :) Cheers ... -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks Perhaps the involved people from KDE and Gnome should just sit down in an IRC chat room and talk about it. note: congrats on the KDE 4.7 release! ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:07, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the involved people from KDE and Gnome should just sit down in an IRC chat room and talk about it. That is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to organize. But I need to know who that would be from the GNOME-side. note: congrats on the KDE 4.7 release! Thanks! Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher KDE Community Working Group member http://kde.org - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Monday, July 25, 2011 10:30:46 Lydia Pintscher wrote: This whole debate is way too heated and I'd like to take this out ofthe arena. Are there 2 or 3 people on the GNOME side that areavailable to talk this through and find a solution? Ideally whoevermaintains system settings on the GNOME side would be one of them.I'd like to work with them and Ben on finding a good solution. Has anyone stepped up for this yet? It's something that deserves resolution and Lydia is willing to help facilitate, now we just need the relevant people involved to participate. I don't foresee it being a long process, but one that ought to be taken on and gotten out of the way. Hopefully those involved in the relevant GNOME and the KDE projects can appreciate this on behalf of our users and, with Lydia's help in keeping things constructive and out of the bikeshed, we can quickly put this behind us and move on to bigger and better things. :) Cheers ... -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:11:32AM +0200, Lydia Pintscher wrote: On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:07, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the involved people from KDE and Gnome should just sit down in an IRC chat room and talk about it. That is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to organize. But I need to know who that would be from the GNOME-side. gnome-control-center maintainers are listed at: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-control-center/tree/gnome-control-center.doap and to see who actually commits things: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-control-center/log -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On 28 July 2011 08:51, Thomas Lübking thomas.luebk...@gmail.com wrote: I thought that was what the GenericName entry was supposed to be good for, so gnome-terminal.desktop would have Name=GNOME Terminal GenericName=Terminal Exec=gnome-terminal and the runner/menu could use the GenericName unless there's a clash (cause konsole's GenericName is Terminal as well) where it could fall back to the Name enties for disambiguation. So my question regarding all this flood in my inbox would be: Does gnome-control-center now use System Settings for the GenericName or the Name entry of gnome-control-center so whether there's a real issue with disambiguation (as long as you want to avoid invoking the Exec string) or just runner/menu xyz is too stupid to resolve ambiguities? Here's what the .desktop files look like: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-control-center/tree/shell/gnome-control-center.desktop.in.in https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kdebase/kde-workspace/repository/revisions/master/annotate/systemsettings/app/systemsettings.desktop Jeremy Bicha ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:24, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:11:32AM +0200, Lydia Pintscher wrote: On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:07, Mark mark...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the involved people from KDE and Gnome should just sit down in an IRC chat room and talk about it. That is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to organize. But I need to know who that would be from the GNOME-side. gnome-control-center maintainers are listed at: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-control-center/tree/gnome-control-center.doap and to see who actually commits things: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-control-center/log Thanks Olav. I'll send some emails. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher KDE Community Working Group member http://kde.org - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Am Thu, 28 Jul 2011 01:15:46 +0200 schrieb Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl: However, that is not our goal. We want something simple. For everything part of GNOME Core we have say what it does instead of putting the git module name in the menu. I thought that was what the GenericName entry was supposed to be good for, so gnome-terminal.desktop would have Name=GNOME Terminal GenericName=Terminal Exec=gnome-terminal and the runner/menu could use the GenericName unless there's a clash (cause konsole's GenericName is Terminal as well) where it could fall back to the Name enties for disambiguation. So my question regarding all this flood in my inbox would be: Does gnome-control-center now use System Settings for the GenericName or the Name entry of gnome-control-center so whether there's a real issue with disambiguation (as long as you want to avoid invoking the Exec string) or just runner/menu xyz is too stupid to resolve ambiguities? Cheers, Thomas ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On 2011-07-23 Matthias wrote: On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Jeremy Bicha jbi...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 22 July 2011 17:17, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: To be more specific about the problem, installing kde-workspace to a GNOME installation results in 2 indistinguishable apps named System Settings and 2 named System Monitor. On Ubuntu at least, if I want the GNOME version, I have to remember to click the first System Monitor but the second System Setting which is awfully frustrating. Here's a screenshot from my Ubuntu install: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/75745040/Gnome%20Shell%20screnshot.p ng This is what happens when you mix and match bits and pieces from different operating systems. There is really not much that can be done about it. Since that is what both KDE and GNOME are trying to do: build complete, self-contained systems. Arguably, KDE is a little further along, with their big monolithic modules like kde-workspace that drag in most of the desktop, while GNOME apps can often still be installed without much of the desktop. Oh, come on. Both projects do that because of some incredibly silly attitude where everything that's from the other side is evil. And while that attitude is not universal. this tread (starting with the tone of Ben's mail) shows clearly many people still have that silly idea which leads to idiotic things like two calculators, two places to configure the language of the apps etcetera. How far have we, Free Software contributors, sunk, if KDE and GNOME apps work better under and integrate better in Windows and Mac OS X then they do ON THE SAME OS running in each other's desktop? I say VERY DEEP. Wake up. THe user doesn't give about the toolkit their app is written in. And they HATE the confusing situation KDE and GNOME purposely create (yes, it's on purpose and you all know it) by needlessly duplicating things and making it harder to run apps from one in the other. We've all seen countless installations of either KDE or GNOME where apps 'from the other side' look and work horrible. If KDE and GNOME can use the native Mac and Windows file dialogs, why can't they use each others dialogs? To name just one silly thing... Imho Ben's mail and the tone there-in was inpolite and uncalled for. And so was the tone many responses. Sigh. I'd like to suggest that the GNOME developers consider changing the public name of their app to System Preferences. This matches the Mac OS X design and arguably GNOME follows some parts of OS X design. Furthermore, it is more in line with Gnome 2's SystemPreferences and SystemAdministration. That is an absurd proposal. What next, rename gnome-terminal to 'Commandline Window' because Xfce also ships a 'Terminal' ?! Generic names don't come with exclusive ownership... Each desktop team should stop picking such generic names. gnome-terminal is fine, so is Konsole. Terminal should probably be renamed. NetworkManager is a braindead name, System Settings implies far more than it accomplishes (it can't handle much 'system settings') so it doesn't seem very smart either. Shaun's proposal is a work-around which would probably be 'good enough' but the root cause is that all DE teams try to create their own little world, going LALALA I DON'T SEE YOU about the rest of the world. And as has already been pointed out, offering the user a meaningless choice between 'System Settings' and 'System Preferences' is no less of a failure than having 2 identical items. That I agree with. KDE systemsettings has made a good step, being able to configure some aspects of GNOME apps (make them integrate better in a Plasma workspace). More of that is needed on both sides, OR a nice, generic config tool should be written which handles everything on both sides. Grtz Jos signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 07:44:54AM +0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote: Each desktop team should stop picking such generic names. gnome-terminal is fine, so is Konsole. Terminal should probably be renamed. NetworkManager is a braindead name, System Settings implies far more than it accomplishes (it can't handle much 'system settings') so it doesn't seem very smart either. gnome-terminal is called gnome-terminal. Just not in the menu. In the menu we give it an understandable name and limit it to GNOME only. This is not going to change. The debate about things like baobab or 'Disk Usage Analyzer' was held within GNOME a long time ago. There was a general consensus that we don't want to show the actual name except in Help-About. Everything else (menu, window title, etc) uses something which is understandable. Meaning 'Disk Usage Analyzer' and 'Terminal'. Shaun's proposal is a work-around which would probably be 'good enough' but the root cause is that all DE teams try to create their own little world, going LALALA I DON'T SEE YOU about the rest of the world. Care is taken not to cause confusion when using another desktop (NotShowIn + OnlyShowIn). For things part of GNOME Core, we will keep on using understandable names. I can understand that some people want to have a mix and match of e.g. core applications. They're free to do so and nothing is done to prevent that (though it might take a small amount of effort). Further I can also understand that some people prefer so see gnome-terminal and konsole in the menu. However, that is not our goal. We want something simple. For everything part of GNOME Core we have say what it does instead of putting the git module name in the menu. For gnome-control-center specifically, it should pretty much configure everything in the OS. Same for the KDE one. Furthermore, working together on ensuring things are handled in a consistent way across all desktops is something that we has been worked upon by various people across various desktops for many years. Probably some things can/could've been done better, but let's just continue working together. For menu entries: we'll keep using 'Terminal', 'Disk Usage Analyser', etc (+NotShowIn/OnlyShowIn of course). -- Regards, Olav (speaking as a release-team member) ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Il giorno lun, 25/07/2011 alle 12.56 +0200, Markus Slopianka ha scritto: Which settings don't they follow? Apart from theme (as there is no gtk3 engine written in Qt yet) Why do theme engines have to be written for Qt in order to let GTK apps at least integrate visually into a Qt environment. There should be a Qt theme loader in GTK just as there is a GTK theme loader in Qt. Well, I think that an hypothetical KDE-looking GTK theme would use Qt calls to paint widget, same as the GNOME-looking Qt theme paints using gtk_paint_*. Well, other than that: GNOME/GTK apps don't integrate with the Notifications panel, File Type Associations, Icon theme, CDDB config (for media players or CD rippers), ... Gtk apps normally use either libnotify, libappindicator or GtkStatusIcon (systray protocol). All of them are supported by KDE, AFAIK. File type associations are from xdg-mime/shared-mime-info, and should be shared by all freedesktop toolkits. Icon theme is taken from XSettings, you just need to export it, like Xfce and Lxde do. As for CDDB config, I don't think GNOME as something shared across the desktop for that. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Le 25/07/2011 19:51, Lennart Poettering a écrit : On Mon, 25.07.11 17:40, Giovanni Campagna (scampa.giova...@gmail.com) wrote: The spec does not provide a list of shared keys, does such a list exist? If there is no such list I don't see how we could share anything. http://wiki.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/XSettingsRegistry This isn't really up-to-date as it appears. These are the settings that Gtk currently knows: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/tree/gdk/x11/gdksettings.c#n37 Thanks for the pointers. The IconThemeName in particular will be quite useful for me. Aurélien ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Le 24/07/2011 17:11, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : GTK+ applications use the XSETTINGS keys: http://standards.freedesktop.org/xsettings-spec/xsettings-spec-0.5.html so every key that is shared using that specification is picked up automatically by GTK+ applications. we can definitely talk about extending the set of shared keys: we routinely do that on xdg-list -- for instance when the sound theme spec was introduced. The spec does not provide a list of shared keys, does such a list exist? If there is no such list I don't see how we could share anything. I don't know what is shared right now but it is definitely not enough: a GTK application running on a KDE workspace does not follow KDE keybindings, palette, fonts, icon theme, label alignment or dialog button order. Additionally I don't believe a shared keys system is enough to share a widget theme. Otherwise the Oxygen devs probably wouldn't have created the Oxygen GTK theme. Do they use kwallet instead of gnome-keyring? applications using the org.freedesktop.Secrets API will ask for the well-known bus name, and get to talk to the daemon implementing it; that means using the gnome-keyring daemon or kwallet, depending on which is installed. the same mechanism of auto-activation is used for many other things. Unfortunately kwallet does not implement org.freedesktop.Secrets yet as far as I understand it. I was also under the impression that the spec was not ready, since its version number is 0.1 DRAFT. Aurélien ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sunday 24 July 2011, Olav Vitters wrote: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 01:38:34PM +0200, Martin Sandsmark wrote: My two cent is that Gnome should rename it's configuration application to something that reflects what it is, instead of stealing the name from the KDE system configuration application. I've already mentioned in the first reply that I'd appreciate a polite discussion. I think that was enough warning. As moderator of kde-core-devel I fully agree. Please keep the discussion constructive. As user I wish that you get together during the Desktop Summit and come up with a solution/plan for joined system settings which can be edited on each desktop with the corresponding system settings app. Regards, Ingo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sunday 24 July 2011 14:12:21 Aurélien Gâteau wrote: If there is no need for KDE System Settings on a Gnome desktop, then adding a OnlyShowIn=KDE; key to the desktop file would be appropriate. If on the other hand there is a need for KDE System Settings on a Gnome desktop, then Shaun solution is correct IMO and we should start to think about adding support for OnlyShowIn to KCM desktop files, because it makes no sense for example to be able to define Plasma Desktop wallpaper when running on Gnome. Technically seen systemsettings lives in kde-workspace which means it is only relevant to the KDE Plasma Workspaces. Non Workspace applications should not depend on its availability and if they require it, I would consider this as an application bug. E.g. the mentioned kinfocenter is a Workspace app. Kcmshell on the other hand, which is required to run a single KCM, lives in kde-runtime and all KDE applications can rely on it being around. So an application having an external KCM can even be configured if systemsettings is not around. E.g. fonts can be configured using kcmshell4 fonts even without systemsettings. Given that, I agree with Aurélien that the most appropriate solution is to not show our KDE Plasma systemsettings in a non Plasma environment (with the exception of Microsoft Windows). I find this whole discussion rather depressing, especially the fact that it ended up on SlashdotCo. Let's try to take something out of it and try in future to discuss such points each other before possible harm is done. This of course applies to both KDE and GNOME developers :-) Cheers Martin Gräßlin KWin Maintainer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sunday 24 July 2011 20:27:58 Martin Gräßlin wrote: On Sunday 24 July 2011 14:12:21 Aurélien Gâteau wrote: If there is no need for KDE System Settings on a Gnome desktop, then adding a OnlyShowIn=KDE; key to the desktop file would be appropriate. If on the other hand there is a need for KDE System Settings on a Gnome desktop, then Shaun solution is correct IMO and we should start to think about adding support for OnlyShowIn to KCM desktop files, because it makes no sense for example to be able to define Plasma Desktop wallpaper when running on Gnome. Technically seen systemsettings lives in kde-workspace which means it is only relevant to the KDE Plasma Workspaces. Non Workspace applications should not depend on its availability and if they require it, I would consider this as an application bug. E.g. the mentioned kinfocenter is a Workspace app. Kcmshell on the other hand, which is required to run a single KCM, lives in kde-runtime and all KDE applications can rely on it being around. So an application having an external KCM can even be configured if systemsettings is not around. E.g. fonts can be configured using kcmshell4 fonts even without systemsettings. Given that, I agree with Aurélien that the most appropriate solution is to not show our KDE Plasma systemsettings in a non Plasma environment (with the exception of Microsoft Windows). I find this whole discussion rather depressing, especially the fact that it ended up on SlashdotCo. Let's try to take something out of it and try in future to discuss such points each other before possible harm is done. This of course applies to both KDE and GNOME developers :-) I btw. agree that a kde application outside of a kde workspace should be self contained. We could solve that problem btw inside of the kde framework even. As Martin masterfully proved systemsettings is a workspace application and should not be be required outside of a full kde workspace (if someone decides to install it intentionally it should still work so the original problem has to be solved anyway.) A application could recognize that it is run outside of an active kde workspace and add all needed kcms (which should be as less as possible ) to its settings menu in that case. But we should really try to respect of the active workspaces settings as possible therefore making as muss kcms as possible useless in such an environment. Mike Cheers Martin Gräßlin KWin Maintainer ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 13.18 +0200, Markus Slopianka ha scritto: Which is a KDE bug. You should use GNOME shortcuts when possible. I mean, Gtk has emacs and Mac OS modes for keybindings, I doubt Qt hasn't something similar. According to that reasoning of yours, all GNOME apps would have to follow the settings in KDE System Settings first (when running under KPW) before GNOME Control Center could even be rebranded as System Settings. So by your own standards: Fix those GNOME bugs first. ;-) Which settings don't they follow? Apart from theme (as there is no gtk3 engine written in Qt yet), everything else in a Gtk+ app is taken from XSettings, so is under the control of workspace daemons (gnome-settings-daemon, kded). As of 3.0, with the removal of libgnome, there are no GNOME apps, just Gtk apps that are featured by the GNOME project or developed by GNOME developers. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 22.17 +0200, Aurélien Gâteau ha scritto: Le 24/07/2011 17:11, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : GTK+ applications use the XSETTINGS keys: http://standards.freedesktop.org/xsettings-spec/xsettings-spec-0.5.html so every key that is shared using that specification is picked up automatically by GTK+ applications. we can definitely talk about extending the set of shared keys: we routinely do that on xdg-list -- for instance when the sound theme spec was introduced. The spec does not provide a list of shared keys, does such a list exist? If there is no such list I don't see how we could share anything. http://wiki.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/XSettingsRegistry I don't know what is shared right now but it is definitely not enough: a GTK application running on a KDE workspace does not follow KDE keybindings, palette, fonts, icon theme, label alignment or dialog button order. Additionally I don't believe a shared keys system is enough to share a widget theme. Otherwise the Oxygen devs probably wouldn't have created the Oxygen GTK theme. Of course, you would need to create a KDE theme. XSettings is just for choosing which theme among many. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Heya folks :) This whole debate is way too heated and I'd like to take this out of the arena. Are there 2 or 3 people on the GNOME side that are available to talk this through and find a solution? Ideally whoever maintains system settings on the GNOME side would be one of them. I'd like to work with them and Ben on finding a good solution. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher KDE Community Working Group member http://kde.org - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Which settings don't they follow? Apart from theme (as there is no gtk3 engine written in Qt yet) Why do theme engines have to be written for Qt in order to let GTK apps at least integrate visually into a Qt environment. There should be a Qt theme loader in GTK just as there is a GTK theme loader in Qt. Well, other than that: GNOME/GTK apps don't integrate with the Notifications panel, File Type Associations, Icon theme, CDDB config (for media players or CD rippers), ... ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
A Segunda, 25 de Julho de 2011 11:56:01 Markus Slopianka você escreveu: Which settings don't they follow? Apart from theme (as there is no gtk3 engine written in Qt yet) Why do theme engines have to be written for Qt in order to let GTK apps at least integrate visually into a Qt environment. There should be a Qt theme loader in GTK just as there is a GTK theme loader in Qt. Well, other than that: GNOME/GTK apps don't integrate with the Notifications panel, File Type Associations, Icon theme, CDDB config (for media players or CD rippers), ... Well oxygen as Oxygen-style writen for gtk 3 already :) think it was anounced and if you use Oxygen as a gtk theme it will use oxygen icon theme as well the integration is pretty nice alamost confusing as some GTK apps look so native in kde you expect the exact same behaviour, example, for configuration setings. On a side note please people remember that the things the unite us are far greater than the litle tiny things that divided us. cheers... -- oxygen guy, I make the pretty pictures ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Mon, 25.07.11 17:40, Giovanni Campagna (scampa.giova...@gmail.com) wrote: The spec does not provide a list of shared keys, does such a list exist? If there is no such list I don't see how we could share anything. http://wiki.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/XSettingsRegistry This isn't really up-to-date as it appears. These are the settings that Gtk currently knows: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/tree/gdk/x11/gdksettings.c#n37 Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 21.00 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: 2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. Again, no. There is nothing you want to configure, running under GNOME, in KDE system settings. Qt apps, running under GNOME, should use Gtk+ style (already done by Qt), GNOME preferred apps and mime-type associations (already done by shared-mime-info), GNOME networking preferences (already done by NetworkManager and libproxy), GNOME fonts (already done by fontconfig). Everything else (desktop effects, hardware settings, date and time, users...) should not be configurable by KDE system settings, and will likely conflict if changed. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 22.37 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:25 PM, Giovanni Campagna scampa.giova...@gmail.com wrote: Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 21.00 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: 2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. Again, no. There is nothing you want to configure, running under GNOME, in KDE system settings. Qt apps, running under GNOME, should use Gtk+ style (already done by Qt), GNOME preferred apps and mime-type associations (already done by shared-mime-info), GNOME networking preferences (already done by NetworkManager and libproxy), GNOME fonts (already done by fontconfig). Everything else (desktop effects, hardware settings, date and time, users...) should not be configurable by KDE system settings, and will likely conflict if changed. Wrong, wrong and wrong. Phonon backend cannot be configured without System Settings. And that's a feature, I suppose. As a GNOME user, I want GStreamer at all times (and as a Fedora user, I can't even install xine). Standard keyboard shortcuts for KDE applications cannot be configured without System Settings. Which is a KDE bug. You should use GNOME shortcuts when possible. I mean, Gtk has emacs and Mac OS modes for keybindings, I doubt Qt hasn't something similar. We don't share Date/Time/Localisation/etc - you need System Settings for that. You don't have $LANG? or org.freedesktop.Accounts? Both are KDE bugs. Theme - we both have our own stores of it - you need System Settings again (in case you don't believe me, read ~/.gtk2rc) It is true that you can change KDE theme without changing the GTK one, but why would one want that? I want the look and feel of my system to be consistent, even when different apps or toolkits are used, and I want one place to configure the theme. (or none, if I'm using GNOME3 /rant) KDE Wallet has some of it's configuration stored in System Settings too - and it is used by KDE applications even outside KDE for secure password storage. KDE apps under GNOME should use gnome-keyring, not kwallet: that's what org.freedesktop.Secrets is for. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. ciao, Emmanuele. Regards, Ben -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sunday 24 July 2011, Ben Cooksley wrote: 2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. Yes, Ben is absolutely right here. It is used for setting up a whole lot of stuff like widget style, colors, printing, file associations etc. for application which link against KDE libraries, but can be run perfectly fine not only in Plasma, but also in other window managers/desktop environments. Alex ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:25 PM, Giovanni Campagna scampa.giova...@gmail.com wrote: Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 21.00 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: 2011/7/24 Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com: hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. if you managed to get yourself into the scenario where KDE and Gnome have been installed at the same time then the KDE system settings shell should be marked as NotShowIn=Gnome, and the Gnome one should be NotShowIn=KDE. currently, gnome-control-center uses: OnlyShowIn=GNOME;Unity; so a menu rendered under KDE won't show it. now, googling a bit I found this: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/102038/ which is, I guess, what really prompted this thread. so, if the KDE system settings shell appears alongside any other system settings shell it means that the users are not running KDE, but are running any other XDG-recognised desktop. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. Again, no. There is nothing you want to configure, running under GNOME, in KDE system settings. Qt apps, running under GNOME, should use Gtk+ style (already done by Qt), GNOME preferred apps and mime-type associations (already done by shared-mime-info), GNOME networking preferences (already done by NetworkManager and libproxy), GNOME fonts (already done by fontconfig). Everything else (desktop effects, hardware settings, date and time, users...) should not be configurable by KDE system settings, and will likely conflict if changed. Wrong, wrong and wrong. Phonon backend cannot be configured without System Settings. Standard keyboard shortcuts for KDE applications cannot be configured without System Settings. We don't share Date/Time/Localisation/etc - you need System Settings for that. Theme - we both have our own stores of it - you need System Settings again (in case you don't believe me, read ~/.gtk2rc) KDE Wallet has some of it's configuration stored in System Settings too - and it is used by KDE applications even outside KDE for secure password storage. Regards, Ben Cooksley ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sunday 24 July 2011 17:55:54 Giovanni Campagna wrote: Il giorno dom, 24/07/2011 alle 22.37 +1200, Ben Cooksley ha scritto: Wrong, wrong and wrong. Phonon backend cannot be configured without System Settings. And that's a feature, I suppose. As a GNOME user, I want GStreamer at all times (and as a Fedora user, I can't even install xine). The Xine backend is not maintained anymore, so the choice is between the libvlc backend and gstreamer backend for most users, and many users actually prefer the libvlc backend (for many reasons, none of which are relevant here :-). I am not familiar with what additional restrictions your distro puts on you wrt. multimedia applications, so this might not be relevant to you, though. My two cent is that Gnome should rename it's configuration application to something that reflects what it is, instead of stealing the name from the KDE system configuration application. -- Martin Sandsmark ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Le 24/07/2011 10:25, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. installing both Gnome and KDE is not equivalent to running both at the same time. Indeed, but still, if there is a use for KDE System Settings to appear on the Gnome desktop, then Shaun solution is appropriate IMO, but that actually brings another interesting question: Which KCM (KDE Control Module, the elements shown in KDE System Settings) are actually useful when running on Gnome? As I said, to the best of my knowledge, very few applications must be configured from a KCM. The only two applications I found on Ubuntu are KInfoCenter and KNemo, which are both KDE workspace-specific. A regular (meaning with a main window) application should show its configuration through its Settings menu. A window-less application is most likely workspace-specific and would probably not be useful on a different workspace. Do we have examples of KDE window-less applications which are useful on Gnome? Another use for KDE System Settings on Gnome is the configuration of the palette, font and icon settings of KDE applications. Interestingly I pushed yesterday a commit which makes KDE applications follow the workspace settings for palette and font (I have yet to do icons) when not running on a KDE workspace, just like Qt-only applications do (BTW, would be awesome if you Gnome devs could do the same for Gnome applications running on a KDE workspace). So this is not relevant anymore. If there is no need for KDE System Settings on a Gnome desktop, then adding a OnlyShowIn=KDE; key to the desktop file would be appropriate. If on the other hand there is a need for KDE System Settings on a Gnome desktop, then Shaun solution is correct IMO and we should start to think about adding support for OnlyShowIn to KCM desktop files, because it makes no sense for example to be able to define Plasma Desktop wallpaper when running on Gnome. Aurélien ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Which is a KDE bug. You should use GNOME shortcuts when possible. I mean, Gtk has emacs and Mac OS modes for keybindings, I doubt Qt hasn't something similar. According to that reasoning of yours, all GNOME apps would have to follow the settings in KDE System Settings first (when running under KPW) before GNOME Control Center could even be rebranded as System Settings. So by your own standards: Fix those GNOME bugs first. ;-) ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Le 24/07/2011 12:55, Giovanni Campagna a écrit : Which is a KDE bug. You should use GNOME shortcuts when possible. I mean, Gtk has emacs and Mac OS modes for keybindings, I doubt Qt hasn't something similar. It is true that you can change KDE theme without changing the GTK one, but why would one want that? I want the look and feel of my system to be consistent, even when different apps or toolkits are used, and I want one place to configure the theme. (or none, if I'm using GNOME3 /rant) KDE apps under GNOME should use gnome-keyring, not kwallet: that's what org.freedesktop.Secrets is for. What about the other way around BTW? Do GNOME applications running on a KDE workspace follow KDE keybindings, theme, palette, fonts and icon theme? Do they use kwallet instead of gnome-keyring? If they don't I guess there is also a use for running GNOME System Settings on a KDE workspace. Aurélien ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 01:38:34PM +0200, Martin Sandsmark wrote: My two cent is that Gnome should rename it's configuration application to something that reflects what it is, instead of stealing the name from the KDE system configuration application. I've already mentioned in the first reply that I'd appreciate a polite discussion. I think that was enough warning. -- Regards, Olav (moderator) ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
hi; On 24 July 2011 10:00, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: the short-term fix is to make the KDE system settings OnlyShowIn=KDE, so that users running KDE will not have any issue, and every other desktop will correctly not show the KDE system settings shell. Wrong. Emmanuele, read my initial email to see why that is not an acceptable solution under any circumstances. It has to be shown in some form, regardless of the name, under all desktop environments. this is utterly ridiculous. you're saying that anyone using a KDE application should also install the KDE system settings shell because it is the only way to configure KDE *applications*? Qt, like GTK+ uses the same XSETTINGS protocol, to allow interoperability between toolkits on the same environment -- that's what we use to bridge stuff like the icon theme, the application font name, and other settings shared across desktops. this is no more a simple matter of user-facing names: your position is that only the KDE system settings can change those settings; this is factually wrong, and ignores what's been done in the past 10 years to allow interoperability between toolkits and environments. if we want to add new shared XSETTINGS key we can definitely talk about that; forcing the hand of users and saying that you require KDE system settings, and the half of KDE they string along, to configure a KDE application is not an acceptable solution in any scenario -- unless you start making every single KDE application strictly depend on the KDE system settings package. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
hi; 2011/7/24 Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org: What about the other way around BTW? Do GNOME applications running on a KDE workspace follow KDE keybindings, theme, palette, fonts and icon theme? GTK+ applications use the XSETTINGS keys: http://standards.freedesktop.org/xsettings-spec/xsettings-spec-0.5.html so every key that is shared using that specification is picked up automatically by GTK+ applications. we can definitely talk about extending the set of shared keys: we routinely do that on xdg-list -- for instance when the sound theme spec was introduced. Do they use kwallet instead of gnome-keyring? applications using the org.freedesktop.Secrets API will ask for the well-known bus name, and get to talk to the daemon implementing it; that means using the gnome-keyring daemon or kwallet, depending on which is installed. the same mechanism of auto-activation is used for many other things. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Le 24 juil. 2011 14:35, Aurélien Gâteau agat...@kde.org a écrit : Le 24/07/2011 12:55, Giovanni Campagna a écrit : Which is a KDE bug. You should use GNOME shortcuts when possible. I mean, Gtk has emacs and Mac OS modes for keybindings, I doubt Qt hasn't something similar. It is true that you can change KDE theme without changing the GTK one, but why would one want that? I want the look and feel of my system to be consistent, even when different apps or toolkits are used, and I want one place to configure the theme. (or none, if I'm using GNOME3 /rant) KDE apps under GNOME should use gnome-keyring, not kwallet: that's what org.freedesktop.Secrets is for. What about the other way around BTW? Do GNOME applications running on a KDE workspace follow KDE keybindings, theme, palette, fonts and icon theme? Do they use kwallet instead of gnome-keyring? If they don't I guess there is also a use for running GNOME System Settings on a KDE workspace. Well, I wrote xsettings-kde http://svn.mandriva.com/viewvc/soft/theme/xsettings-kde/ in 2007 which exports kde settings as xsettings and causes GNOME/GTK applications to follow KDE settings. Unfortunately, this code has never been integrated in KDE... -- Frédéric Crozat ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com a écrit: I don't think Shauns proposal addresses the issue, really. Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? If you want an app to be usable in different environments, then there are some good solutions: - make sure the app is self-contained and manages all of its settings itself - make your app smart enough to pick up the relevant settings from the different environments you want to support And there are bad solutions, including: - making the app drag along half of its original environment, via dependencies You don't say why these would better address the issue here and now in comparison with what Shaun is proposing. -- Dodji ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Il giorno sab, 23/07/2011 alle 11.27 +0200, Dodji Seketeli ha scritto: Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com a écrit: I don't think Shauns proposal addresses the issue, really. Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? You have two .desktop files, matching the same application, so it is possible gnome-shell, unity or kde could pick the wrong one when matching desktop files to windows (unless you tweak Exec to pass --class, but that fails again with single-instance applications) If you want an app to be usable in different environments, then there are some good solutions: - make sure the app is self-contained and manages all of its settings itself - make your app smart enough to pick up the relevant settings from the different environments you want to support And there are bad solutions, including: - making the app drag along half of its original environment, via dependencies You don't say why these would better address the issue here and now in comparison with what Shaun is proposing. You get to configure your apps once for both Gtk and Qt apps, which is better for the user and makes the system more consistent In particular, I underline Gtk and Qt: you don't write GNOME apps, and you don't write KDE apps, you write Gtk and Qt (or Qt+kdelibs) apps, and then the toolkits adapts themselves to the environment. If you can write a Qt+kdelibs app that work on windows or mac os x, you can make it work out of the box in GNOME, without dragging in the entire workspace. This still doesn't address GNOME Core / KDE Workspace collisions, but since those components are desktop specific, it makes sense to use OnlyShowIn for them. Giovanni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Am 23.07.2011 11:54, schrieb Giovanni Campagna: Il giorno sab, 23/07/2011 alle 11.27 +0200, Dodji Seketeli ha scritto: Matthias Clasenmatthias.cla...@gmail.com a écrit: I don't think Shauns proposal addresses the issue, really. Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? You have two .desktop files, matching the same application, so it is possible gnome-shell, unity or kde could pick the wrong one when matching desktop files to windows (unless you tweak Exec to pass --class, but that fails again with single-instance applications) But one of them is hidden via [Not]OnlyShowIn. There should be code in all desktop's .destkop file matchers to prefer the files tailored to the respective environment, and if not, it is easy enough to add. I think everyone here agrees that this more a less a temporary measure and that other long-term solutions such as better cross-desktop settings integration is in order. However, I think that for the time being the .desktop file solution is sensible. Regards, Denis Washington ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Denis Washington den...@online.de a écrit: Am 23.07.2011 11:54, schrieb Giovanni Campagna: Il giorno sab, 23/07/2011 alle 11.27 +0200, Dodji Seketeli ha scritto: Matthias Clasenmatthias.cla...@gmail.com a écrit: I don't think Shauns proposal addresses the issue, really. Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? You have two .desktop files, matching the same application, so it is possible gnome-shell, unity or kde could pick the wrong one when matching desktop files to windows (unless you tweak Exec to pass --class, but that fails again with single-instance applications) But one of them is hidden via [Not]OnlyShowIn. There should be code in all desktop's .destkop file matchers to prefer the files tailored to the respective environment, and if not, it is easy enough to add. Exactly. I think everyone here agrees that this more a less a temporary measure and that other long-term solutions such as better cross-desktop settings integration is in order. I couldn't agree more. Giovanni Campagna scampa.giova...@gmail.com a écrit: [please don't CC me in your replies. I am subscribed to at lease one of the lists in the To: field] If you want an app to be usable in different environments, then there are some good solutions: - make sure the app is self-contained and manages all of its settings itself - make your app smart enough to pick up the relevant settings from the different environments you want to support And there are bad solutions, including: - making the app drag along half of its original environment, via dependencies You don't say why these would better address the issue here and now in comparison with what Shaun is proposing. You get to configure your apps once for both Gtk and Qt apps, which is better for the user and makes the system more consistent In particular, I underline Gtk and Qt: you don't write GNOME apps, and you don't write KDE apps, you write Gtk and Qt (or Qt+kdelibs) apps, and then the toolkits adapts themselves to the environment. If you can write a Qt+kdelibs app that work on windows or mac os x, you can make it work out of the box in GNOME, without dragging in the entire workspace. You forgot the here and now part in my question. You just can't do what Mathias is proposing /quickly/ enough. It would seem to me that we need a stop gap measure now, while we carefully think about something more streamlined and future proof to be crafted later. -- Dodji ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On 2011-07-23 at 11:27, Dodji Seketeli wrote: Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com a écrit: I don't think Shauns proposal addresses the issue, really. Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? it falls short in showing: System Settings KDE System Settings under Gnome, and: System Settings Gnome System Settings under KDE. now, if you got a computer without having it installed yourself, and you read the applications list, do you know what KDE or Gnome are? this is a non-solution, and an abdication of responsibility. the real solution is to make it unnecessary (or even conflicting) to install the KDE system settings shell under a Gnome environment, and the Gnome system settings under a KDE environment; these are configuring the system settings, and you can hardly have two systems running at the same time on the same machine. applications should not be configured through the *system* settings; and both system settings shell should configure the same services. If you want an app to be usable in different environments, then there are some good solutions: - make sure the app is self-contained and manages all of its settings itself - make your app smart enough to pick up the relevant settings from the different environments you want to support And there are bad solutions, including: - making the app drag along half of its original environment, via dependencies You don't say why these would better address the issue here and now in comparison with what Shaun is proposing. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com a écrit: On 2011-07-23 at 11:27, Dodji Seketeli wrote: Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? it falls short in showing: System Settings KDE System Settings under Gnome, and: System Settings Gnome System Settings under KDE. Oh, I see. the real solution is to make it unnecessary (or even conflicting) to install the KDE system settings shell under a Gnome environment, and the Gnome system settings under a KDE environment; That would be a more elegant situation, IMO. these are configuring the system settings, and you can hardly have two systems running at the same time on the same machine. Agreed. applications should not be configured through the *system* settings; and both system settings shell should configure the same services. This makes sense to me. You don't say why these would better address the issue here and now in comparison with what Shaun is proposing. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. My point was to have the options written down and have interested people explicitly say why a particular point is valid or not, rather than just bluntly dismissing someone's point as being a non-solution without providing rationale. As for the here and now, I don't personally perceive this issue as urgent as I use GNOME only. But I could imagine that some people do. -- Dodji ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Hi, I find what is proposed by Shaun to be acceptable, as the distinction between the two is clearly defined. It still allows users to determine the correct System Settings application to use to configure KDE applications with what is probably the most minimal level of confusion. KDE System Settings will continue to be called System Settings under KDE, but will be called KDE System Settings under all other environments. Unfortunately, this is too late for KDE 4.7. Had I been contacted when the decision to use the name System Settings under GNOME, this entire issue could have been avoided - which I think everyone would have preferred. If any GNOME components exist which do similar using of global names, particularly in the space of preferences, it would be much appreciated if you take similar steps. @Matthias: please explain how this doesn't solve the issue. If anyone has any other comments to make on this, please do. I'll make the needed adjustments once KDE 4.7 has been released, unless objections are raised. Regards, Ben Cooksley KDE System Settings Maintainer. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Am 23.07.2011 12:33, schrieb Emmanuele Bassi: On 2011-07-23 at 11:27, Dodji Seketeli wrote: Matthias Clasenmatthias.cla...@gmail.com a écrit: I don't think Shauns proposal addresses the issue, really. Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? it falls short in showing: System Settings KDE System Settings under Gnome, and: System Settings Gnome System Settings under KDE. now, if you got a computer without having it installed yourself, and you read the applications list, do you know what KDE or Gnome are? this is a non-solution, and an abdication of responsibility. A slight variation that would make this non-solution a bit less confusing would be to use the name KDE Settings instead. People who don't know what this is will leave it alone then, using the obviously named System Settings instead. Again, nobody is talking this being a long-term solution. Regards, Denis ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Dodji Seketeli do...@seketeli.org wrote: Emmanuele Bassi eba...@gmail.com a écrit: On 2011-07-23 at 11:27, Dodji Seketeli wrote: Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? it falls short in showing: System Settings KDE System Settings under Gnome, and: System Settings Gnome System Settings under KDE. Oh, I see. the real solution is to make it unnecessary (or even conflicting) to install the KDE system settings shell under a Gnome environment, and the Gnome system settings under a KDE environment; That would be a more elegant situation, IMO. these are configuring the system settings, and you can hardly have two systems running at the same time on the same machine. Agreed. applications should not be configured through the *system* settings; and both system settings shell should configure the same services. This makes sense to me. You don't say why these would better address the issue here and now in comparison with what Shaun is proposing. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. My point was to have the options written down and have interested people explicitly say why a particular point is valid or not, rather than just bluntly dismissing someone's point as being a non-solution without providing rationale. As for the here and now, I don't personally perceive this issue as urgent as I use GNOME only. But I could imagine that some people do. Just a small suggestion on how i think this should be fixed (since 2 desktop files for one app seems just ugly to me). Perhaps it's better to extend the desktop file specification: http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s05.html And i would propose adding 2 entries: NativeDE - This one holds the desktop environment name where the app would be native. So GNOME, KDE or whatever. NameNonNative - This one holds the app name when it's shown in a desktop environment that is not native. When not set fallback to Name So for example the System Settings app in KDE looks somewhat like this in a .desktop file: Name=System Settings NativeDE=KDE NameNonNative=KDE System Settings The same applies for gnome system settings and also for the system monitor (that also has the naming issue) Isn't this a good solution? Regards, Mark ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 4:41 AM, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: @Matthias: please explain how this doesn't solve the issue. It certainly solves the immediate symptom of 'two things in the menu are named the same'. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Saturday, July 23, 2011 04:41:05 AM Ben Cooksley wrote: Hi, I find what is proposed by Shaun to be acceptable, as the distinction between the two is clearly defined. It still allows users to determine the correct System Settings application to use to configure KDE applications with what is probably the most minimal level of confusion. KDE System Settings will continue to be called System Settings under KDE, but will be called KDE System Settings under all other environments. Unfortunately, this is too late for KDE 4.7. Had I been contacted when the decision to use the name System Settings under GNOME, this entire issue could have been avoided - which I think everyone would have preferred. If any GNOME components exist which do similar using of global names, particularly in the space of preferences, it would be much appreciated if you take similar steps. @Matthias: please explain how this doesn't solve the issue. If anyone has any other comments to make on this, please do. I'll make the needed adjustments once KDE 4.7 has been released, unless objections are raised. This will, clearly, run afoul of the KDE rebranding strategy where KDE is a community and not a piece (or collection) of software. Personally I think that says more about the rebranding strategy than this proposal, but this aspect of it should be considered. Scott K ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Le 23/07/2011 12:33, Emmanuele Bassi a écrit : On 2011-07-23 at 11:27, Dodji Seketeli wrote: Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com a écrit: I don't think Shauns proposal addresses the issue, really. Why? Do you have an example that would show where Shaun's proposal falls short? it falls short in showing: System Settings KDE System Settings under Gnome, and: System Settings Gnome System Settings under KDE. now, if you got a computer without having it installed yourself, and you read the applications list, do you know what KDE or Gnome are? Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. applications should not be configured through the *system* settings; and both system settings shell should configure the same services. Agreed. If you want an app to be usable in different environments, then there are some good solutions: - make sure the app is self-contained and manages all of its settings itself - make your app smart enough to pick up the relevant settings from the different environments you want to support And there are bad solutions, including: - making the app drag along half of its original environment, via dependencies Agreed as well, but very few applications actually depends on KDE system settings. At least on my Ubuntu box, only knemo and kinfocenter do (if apt-cache rdepends is to be trusted) and they are system-related utilities. You don't say why these would better address the issue here and now in comparison with what Shaun is proposing. there is no here and now — that would be a hack. I hardly think we have to solve this *quickly*, so we should solve it correctly. Releases are conflicting right *now*, so yes, I think there is a need to solve it quickly, even if the first fix is a short-term one. Aurélien ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Most distributions split KDE packages so if you get a pre-installed computer with Gnome and a few KDE applications installed, KDE System Settings would not be installed. You are only likely to get both System Settings pre-installed if your computer was shipped with both KDE and Gnome desktops. In this situation, I assume you would be provided with some explanation as to what KDE and Gnome are. In my experience when a user has two or more DE's installed, it is because they had one installed to begin with, then they installed a package which pulled in an entirly different DE. For me, this is the most frequent cause of multiple DE's. And it is not that rare, especially for new Linux users that don't know that there are packages sitting in the same repo's designed for one DE but not the rest. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 08:21:14PM +1200, Ben Cooksley wrote: As KDE occupied this name first, it is ours as a result, and I will NOT be relinquishing it to satisfy your personal (selfish) desires, which will cause numerous problems for users on both sides. Always nice to meet a fellow free desktop developer. Please be aware that no harm is meant. However, your tone is not what we're used to. Our mailing lists are moderated and though you can disagree all you want, please always show some respect. See for instance https://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct Now lets go into something more productive and perhaps we can fix this before the sunny Desktop Summit. -- Regards, Olav (moderator) ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On 22 July 2011 17:17, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: Now lets go into something more productive and perhaps we can fix this before the sunny Desktop Summit. Hi Olav, In terms of being productive surrounding this, I have several questions: Screenshots on your live wiki indicate that GNOME developers were aware of the use of the System Settings name by KDE. Why did your developers deliberately proceed with the use of this name, knowing it would cause a conflict? (This was the primary reason why I was particularly angry about the discovery of your use of this name) Is there any reason why it cannot be renamed once more as soon as is possible so that the next release your team makes fixes this issue? I would prefer to resolve this issue as soon as possible, to minimise the work packagers will inevitably do to block KDE System Settings under GNOME, and the resulting KDE application user support issues that will arise. Regards, Ben Cooksley KDE System Settings Maintainer To be more specific about the problem, installing kde-workspace to a GNOME installation results in 2 indistinguishable apps named System Settings and 2 named System Monitor. On Ubuntu at least, if I want the GNOME version, I have to remember to click the first System Monitor but the second System Setting which is awfully frustrating. Here's a screenshot from my Ubuntu install: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/75745040/Gnome%20Shell%20screnshot.png GNOME happily has the OnlyShowIn:Gnome,Unity key set for gnome-control-center but KDE is unwilling to do the same because that is the only way to change important preferences that affect KDE apps in general. I'd like to suggest that the GNOME developers consider changing the public name of their app to System Preferences. This matches the Mac OS X design and arguably GNOME follows some parts of OS X design. Furthermore, it is more in line with Gnome 2's SystemPreferences and SystemAdministration. I suspect GNOME developers would rather users not install KDE apps, but that's a narrow viewpoint. As one example, GNOME has no equivalent to the educational suite that kdeedu provides. I also don't think GNOME was intentionally malicious in choosing their app's new name but it is creating an interoperability issue that ought to be resolved. Jeremy Bicha ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 17:53 -0400, Jeremy Bicha wrote: On 22 July 2011 17:17, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: Now lets go into something more productive and perhaps we can fix this before the sunny Desktop Summit. Hi Olav, In terms of being productive surrounding this, I have several questions: Screenshots on your live wiki indicate that GNOME developers were aware of the use of the System Settings name by KDE. Why did your developers deliberately proceed with the use of this name, knowing it would cause a conflict? (This was the primary reason why I was particularly angry about the discovery of your use of this name) Is there any reason why it cannot be renamed once more as soon as is possible so that the next release your team makes fixes this issue? I would prefer to resolve this issue as soon as possible, to minimise the work packagers will inevitably do to block KDE System Settings under GNOME, and the resulting KDE application user support issues that will arise. Regards, Ben Cooksley KDE System Settings Maintainer To be more specific about the problem, installing kde-workspace to a GNOME installation results in 2 indistinguishable apps named System Settings and 2 named System Monitor. On Ubuntu at least, if I want the GNOME version, I have to remember to click the first System Monitor but the second System Setting which is awfully frustrating. Here's a screenshot from my Ubuntu install: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/75745040/Gnome%20Shell%20screnshot.png GNOME happily has the OnlyShowIn:Gnome,Unity key set for gnome-control-center but KDE is unwilling to do the same because that is the only way to change important preferences that affect KDE apps in general. I'd like to suggest that the GNOME developers consider changing the public name of their app to System Preferences. This matches the Mac OS X design and arguably GNOME follows some parts of OS X design. Furthermore, it is more in line with Gnome 2's SystemPreferences and SystemAdministration. I very much doubt users will be any less confused when confronted with System Settings and System Preferences. We should work on shared groundwork so that our settings are interoperable. If a user has to set his language in two different applications just because he happens to use applications written in two different toolkits, we have failed miserably. However, if the here-and-now requires this duplication, then I don't think it's right for any application to use a generic name outside its target desktop. Having the KDE System Settings show up as just System Settings under GNOME is confusing to GNOME users. Just as it would be confusing if I made Yelp show up as Help in KDE. There's a very easy way to use a different application name under different desktops. Just install two .desktop files. One looks like this: Name=System Settings OnlyShowIn=KDE The other looks like this: Name=KDE System Settings NotShowIn=KDE You just can't expect to own generic names across desktops. -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Jeremy Bicha jbi...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 22 July 2011 17:17, Ben Cooksley bcooks...@kde.org wrote: To be more specific about the problem, installing kde-workspace to a GNOME installation results in 2 indistinguishable apps named System Settings and 2 named System Monitor. On Ubuntu at least, if I want the GNOME version, I have to remember to click the first System Monitor but the second System Setting which is awfully frustrating. Here's a screenshot from my Ubuntu install: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/75745040/Gnome%20Shell%20screnshot.png This is what happens when you mix and match bits and pieces from different operating systems. There is really not much that can be done about it. Since that is what both KDE and GNOME are trying to do: build complete, self-contained systems. Arguably, KDE is a little further along, with their big monolithic modules like kde-workspace that drag in most of the desktop, while GNOME apps can often still be installed without much of the desktop. I'd like to suggest that the GNOME developers consider changing the public name of their app to System Preferences. This matches the Mac OS X design and arguably GNOME follows some parts of OS X design. Furthermore, it is more in line with Gnome 2's SystemPreferences and SystemAdministration. That is an absurd proposal. What next, rename gnome-terminal to 'Commandline Window' because Xfce also ships a 'Terminal' ?! Generic names don't come with exclusive ownership... And as has already been pointed out, offering the user a meaningless choice between 'System Settings' and 'System Preferences' is no less of a failure than having 2 identical items. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
2011/7/23 Matthias Clasen matthias.cla...@gmail.com: I'd like to suggest that the GNOME developers consider changing the public name of their app to System Preferences. This matches the Mac OS X design and arguably GNOME follows some parts of OS X design. Furthermore, it is more in line with Gnome 2's SystemPreferences and SystemAdministration. That is an absurd proposal. What next, rename gnome-terminal to 'Commandline Window' because Xfce also ships a 'Terminal' ?! Generic names don't come with exclusive ownership... And as has already been pointed out, offering the user a meaningless choice between 'System Settings' and 'System Preferences' is no less of a failure than having 2 identical items. Matthias, please, I suppose this thread doesn't need your aggressiveness. What about, instead, Shaun's proposal? It seems reasonable to me (while I like to test it) and we could do the same in GNOME stuff (while it's additional work for maintainers and tranlators). ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
This is what happens when you mix and match bits and pieces from different operating systems. There is really not much that can be done about it. Since that is what both KDE and GNOME are trying to do: build complete, self-contained systems. So far we are running the same OS (for most of us it is Linux, but it can be Solaris or *BSD). DE != OS. And the system can be multiuser - which sometimes means both KDE and GNOME can be present in the same installation. Also, some, especially semi-professional apps are not going to be duplicated in both environments (I am not talking about text editors or calculators) - so there are relatively high chances that the user would need both sets of settings, for KDE and GNOME (in that sense having ShowOnlyIn can be a bad idea - some foreign apps would become not configurable). The best idea really would be to define the mechanism of feeding the settings into foreign apps. Both directions, GNOME (desktop) -KDE (apps) and KDE (desktop) - GNOME (apps). If we have that, in addition to ShowOnlyIn, user could never notice that the system has two variants of System Settings. The only problem with that approach is that some settings can be defined only in one DE. In that case, sane default values could be the only choice.. Sergey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Luca Ferretti lferr...@gnome.org wrote: What about, instead, Shaun's proposal? It seems reasonable to me (while I like to test it) and we could do the same in GNOME stuff (while it's additional work for maintainers and tranlators). I don't think Shauns proposal addresses the issue, really. If you want an app to be usable in different environments, then there are some good solutions: - make sure the app is self-contained and manages all of its settings itself - make your app smart enough to pick up the relevant settings from the different environments you want to support And there are bad solutions, including: - making the app drag along half of its original environment, via dependencies ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Hello, Why not use Gnome System Settings and KDE System Settings instead? So this can be visible in both environments, and the user will know what he needs to change. Internally I believe both can keep System Settings. Using Gnome/KDE System Settings the user will know which one he want's to use. Regards, Arx Cruz On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 9:50 PM, Sergey Udaltsov sergey.udalt...@gmail.comwrote: This is what happens when you mix and match bits and pieces from different operating systems. There is really not much that can be done about it. Since that is what both KDE and GNOME are trying to do: build complete, self-contained systems. So far we are running the same OS (for most of us it is Linux, but it can be Solaris or *BSD). DE != OS. And the system can be multiuser - which sometimes means both KDE and GNOME can be present in the same installation. Also, some, especially semi-professional apps are not going to be duplicated in both environments (I am not talking about text editors or calculators) - so there are relatively high chances that the user would need both sets of settings, for KDE and GNOME (in that sense having ShowOnlyIn can be a bad idea - some foreign apps would become not configurable). The best idea really would be to define the mechanism of feeding the settings into foreign apps. Both directions, GNOME (desktop) -KDE (apps) and KDE (desktop) - GNOME (apps). If we have that, in addition to ShowOnlyIn, user could never notice that the system has two variants of System Settings. The only problem with that approach is that some settings can be defined only in one DE. In that case, sane default values could be the only choice.. Sergey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On 23/07/11 00:25, Shaun McCance wrote: I very much doubt users will be any less confused when confronted with System Settings and System Preferences. Especially as in other languages, there are not always two words for this (e.g. German). There's a very easy way to use a different application name under different desktops. Just install two .desktop files. One looks like this: Name=System Settings OnlyShowIn=KDE The other looks like this: Name=KDE System Settings NotShowIn=KDE That seems to solve the language problem. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
Now lets go into something more productive and perhaps we can fix this before the sunny Desktop Summit. Hi Olav, In terms of being productive surrounding this, I have several questions: Screenshots on your live wiki indicate that GNOME developers were aware of the use of the System Settings name by KDE. Why did your developers deliberately proceed with the use of this name, knowing it would cause a conflict? (This was the primary reason why I was particularly angry about the discovery of your use of this name) Is there any reason why it cannot be renamed once more as soon as is possible so that the next release your team makes fixes this issue? I would prefer to resolve this issue as soon as possible, to minimise the work packagers will inevitably do to block KDE System Settings under GNOME, and the resulting KDE application user support issues that will arise. Regards, Ben Cooksley KDE System Settings Maintainer ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Formal complaint concerning the use of the name System Settings by GNOME
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 09:17:17AM +1200, Ben Cooksley wrote: Now lets go into something more productive and perhaps we can fix this before the sunny Desktop Summit. Hi Olav, In terms of being productive surrounding this, I have several questions: Screenshots on your live wiki indicate that GNOME developers were aware of the use of the System Settings name by KDE. Why did your developers deliberately proceed with the use of this name, knowing it would cause a conflict? (This was the primary reason why I was particularly angry about the discovery of your use of this name) I don't own any developers, nor am I a GNOME developer (see end of the email for list of the things I do for GNOME). This said, I think it was already mentioned that 'System Settings' was purposely limited to GNOME and later Unity. So care was taken to ensure KDE would not have a confusing menu entry. The rest I'd guess is either oversight, different assumptions or just lack of time. Is there any reason why it cannot be renamed once more as soon as is possible so that the next release your team makes fixes this issue? This has been explained already I think. Be aware that I don't have any team. I would prefer to resolve this issue as soon as possible, to minimise the work packagers will inevitably do to block KDE System Settings under GNOME, and the resulting KDE application user support issues that will arise. I think I explained that I was speaking as a moderator. I'm also in the GNOME release team, GNOME sysadmin team and a bugmaster. In none of those things I've noticed this. Regarding release team: We almost always let developers decide things and gently steer things in the right direction. See https://live.gnome.org/ReleasePlanning if you want more background on how things are done @ GNOME. Not sure how it works in KDE, but although I have my own opinion on this topic, I prefer leave this to the developers. I've noticed some of the replies you've got are a bit harsh. This is not how a discussion should be and this is why I responded + cc'ed the mailing list (to prevent it). I really care that a discussion is being held nicely (assume people mean well + somewhat concise in the amount of messages) and step in when it is not. Regarding this topic: Various GNOME developers have already replied, suggest to continue the discussion with them and I'll just lurk. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
