[Fwd: Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted]
On Sun, 2013-09-29 at 12:34 -0700, Leslie S Satenstein wrote: > So, we also look at the memory consumption in my 1 gig notebook, and > see that 1/3 of it is to support icon presentation. On my box it is 1563MiB or RAM (`free --mega`), albeit with Evolution, Epiphany, and gnome-terminal open. Memory usage is the natural consequence of desktop effects and polish. > How many clicks on average does it take to find a program whose name > you don't recall? 4/5 if you use the mouse. If you don't know the name, just type in what kind of app or what category it is, e.g. editor->gedit(enter). A good maintainer will ship a .desktop file that contains a set of relevant tags. > And when you change things because you think they are better, it is > not that we are resistant to change, we are resistant to fiddling > because of boredom. Is that what you think the Gnome devs are basing their decisions on? Your status as an "experienced Information Technology specialist." should really tell you otherwise > I suspect, and I am not sure why, but Gnome will be forked, and > something better will arise. It has[0][1][3], if they are better (in your opinion), then use them. If not, then what does that say when three forks of a desktop can't get it right? How did we get on to this anyway? [0] http://mate-desktop.org/ [1] http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/ [3] SolusOS Consort (no project or source code page) -- Marco Scannadinari ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Le 2013-09-25 00:31, Allan Day a écrit : Sticking to the topic of text selections specifically (since general discussions on mailing lists are the road to hell) - we won't make changes in this area unless there are clear benefits to users. I think there is a compelling case to be made for improvements to text selections, and it is something that people will appreciate. I also think we can make changes without too much disruption. The devil will be in the detail of course, and we'll have to wait for the designs to be fleshed out before having a serious discussion. Are you thinking of generelized way to make squared selection and so on in all GtkTextView and the like? One common case I may think of is selecting a text column in a pdf with multi-column page layout. Libre/Open-office provide a switch in the status-bar. One may also think of regexp selection, or an equivalent regexp-crafting wizard, wich enable to select lines/paraphs containing a string. I read somewhere that gedit now support regexp search, so I guess that a large part of what's needed for enabling such a selection method is already there. Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Association Culture-Libre http://www.culture-libre.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Le 2013-09-30 10:56, Allan Day a écrit : Mathieu Stumpf wrote: There's a pdf document somewhere about gnome design foundations (I can't find it now, but probably I found it on [2], You're probably thinking of Jon's old GNOME Shell design doc [1]. Yes, that's it. Sure it's an "old" document, but I began to read the gnome design planet in chronological order to have a better progression overview. where you can read a quote which states something like "be usable for new users, hackable for power users, but optimize for middle users". It reads: "Design a self-teaching interface for beginners, and an efficient interface for advanced users, but optimize for intermediates." Allan Thank you, that's exactly that. [1] https://people.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/design/GNOME_Shell-20091114.pdf -- Association Culture-Libre http://www.culture-libre.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Mathieu Stumpf wrote: > There's a pdf document somewhere about gnome design foundations (I can't > find it now, but probably I found it on [2], You're probably thinking of Jon's old GNOME Shell design doc [1]. > where you can read a quote > which states something like "be usable for new users, hackable for power > users, > but optimize for middle users". It reads: "Design a self-teaching interface for beginners, and an efficient interface for advanced users, but optimize for intermediates." Allan [1] https://people.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/design/GNOME_Shell-20091114.pdf ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Le 2013-09-24 19:27, Ray Morris a écrit : Allan Day said: You're making a lot of assumptions here. When this story broke it was on the basis of two commits, and had no other background information. I've read some of the discussion. The news stories did pick up on context menu, making it a non-default setting, etc. It does appear that there is additional background I haven't located any record of. I'm not making any assumptions about what that may be. I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key word "discoverable" is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. Based on the available background, I'm pointing out a principle that is true globally. For any system that will be used many times, over a period of time, it is false economy | to make it simpler in the beginning by making it harder in the long run. There's a pdf document somewhere about gnome design foundations (I can't find it now, but probably I found it on [2], where you can read a quote which states something like "be usable for new users, hackable for power users, but optimize for middle users". So I guess gnome designers are aware of this. As far as I concerned, I like the middle click paste, but I think there are way to improve the copy/paste functions, sometime you inadvertency select something and as a result you don't paste what you want. To my mind, an ideal solution would include a way to paste one of the, say, ten last copied items. But on the other hand, you don't want to cluter the interface… [2] https://planet.gnome.org/ux/ The interface we're using right now, English, is a great example. Suppose someone proposed simplifying English so that it could be learned completely in six months, that we remove any words or language constructs not used by six-month-olds babies? That would of course be ridiculous. But it does exits and you even have a "simple English" wikipedia version[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_english We want the interface we're using to be deep, to have more and more power we can discover over time. Just as young children learn "mama", then later learn "maternal", new users can use ctrl-c/ ctrl-v, until they learn more. (Though ctrl-c is of course a _terrible_ habit on Linux. The same keystroke is used both for copying data and for immediately killing the program with extreme prejudice, losing all data.) ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Association Culture-Libre http://www.culture-libre.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Thu, 2013-09-26 at 04:44 -0700, Leslie S Satenstein wrote: > Gnome is emulating the Android interface citation needed? -- Marco Scannadinari ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Ionut Biru wrote: > > Hello Allan, > > I'm asking you from the position of being a linux user that had used > middle click for years, 10 or more. > > How often do you use this functionality in your daily use of gnome? > please answer honestly and I want a straight answer, don't give me a > marketing answer. I'm hardly a marketing guy and I've used this feature for as long as I've used Linux IIRC (~13 years). However, me being extremely habitual of a feature and it being there for decades does not imply its a good feature that must be retained as is. The way it currently works is very confusing. Despite the fact that I take it for granted, I keep pasting the wrong buffer. > The proposed designed is broken from start. That might be so but that is true for the feature its replacing as well and if we try to address the problem, we are likely to arrive at a good solution at the end (Remember that is not set in stone or anything). -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) FSF member#5124 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 04:44:17AM -0700, Leslie S Satenstein wrote: > As Gnome is emulating the Android interface, you should know that if I > wanted a Android interface to Linux, I would certainly go the Android > route. This is going highly offtopic. Android?!? People really care about the middle click button. Ok, understood. Now let's move on or quiet down please. -- Regards, Olav (I have the ability to moderate) ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
All this contraversy Because I come from a Windows background, and because I was developing software before the mouse gained the centre wheel, with the tilt and press actions, I am more brainwashed into using the right mouse button for the paste function. What should be remembered by developers is the rule of three. 1. Here are the changes I am planning/going to make in the next months. Feedback please. 2. Here are the changes that are implemented, as I told you and we agreed upon. 3. Here are the wonderful changes that I made to improve the system based on your feedback. Of course, if you omit steps one and two, you lose support. As Gnome is emulating the Android interface, you should know that if I wanted a Android interface to Linux, I would certainly go the Android route. Heh Gnome gurus! Linux users are developers, and do not want the tablet/Android interface. Did you follow step 1 above, to give us your roadmap? This lack of information spreading has been lacking and from what I read from the Gnome forums, much of the design has been "seat of the pants", with the programmer being the architect, or vice-versa. Steps 2 and 3 are certainly unknown by most distributions and end-users. None of the distributions that I have evaluated know whats coming. To them, its a blackbox that they take and install, and ignore. Regards Leslie Mr. Leslie Satenstein An experienced Information Technology specialist. Yesterday was a good day, today is a better day, and tomorrow will be even better.lsatenst...@yahoo.com alternative: leslie.satenst...@gmail.com SENT FROM MY OPEN SOURCE LINUX SYSTEM. > >From: Debarshi Ray >To: Ionut Biru >Cc: "desktop-devel-list@gnome.org" >Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 7:18 AM >Subject: Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted > > >On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:34:49PM +0300, Ionut Biru wrote: >> How often do you use this functionality in your daily use of gnome? >> please answer honestly and I want a straight answer, don't give me a >> marketing answer. > >I do regularly mix middle click copy / paste with ctrl+c/v copy / paste. > >Cheers, >Debarshi > > >-- >Wearing non-prescription glasses and embracing obscurity doesn't >necessarily make you a hipster. -- Anonymous >___ >desktop-devel-list mailing list >desktop-devel-list@gnome.org >https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > >___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:34:49PM +0300, Ionut Biru wrote: > How often do you use this functionality in your daily use of gnome? > please answer honestly and I want a straight answer, don't give me a > marketing answer. I do regularly mix middle click copy / paste with ctrl+c/v copy / paste. Cheers, Debarshi -- Wearing non-prescription glasses and embracing obscurity doesn't necessarily make you a hipster. -- Anonymous pgpqZj5qe2oFE.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Le 26/09/2013 11:34, Ionut Biru a écrit : > The proposed designed is broken from start. Middle click should > never change its behavior. Please stop the noise and let this thread die. It has already been said that there is no proposed design at the moment. Once there's one, the discussion will take place. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On 09/26/2013 11:21 AM, Allan Day wrote: > Ray Morris wrote: >>> Not be be a jerk, but can you seriously post that with a straight face? ... >>> didn't turn up anything about the middle mouse button until last week >>> and that bugzilla has several people begging that the behavior not be >>> changed. I don't see how that can be considered a "proposal" or "discussion" >> >> The bugzilla commit completely disabled middle-yank, so yes that appears to >> be a proposal to change the behavior. >> It was temporarily reverted with the message "we'll defer this change until >> the next cycle". The way that's >> worded, it sounds like it's not just a proposal to do so, it's a decision to >> do so. >> >> According to the record, what we had was a commit that actually eliminated >> the functionality (by default), >> followed by _discussion_ (Mathias' word) between Mathias, Allan and Jakup to >> delay it. The committer certainly >> considered it a "discussion", that's what he called it. You may disagree >> with his wording, but I suspect he >> did in fact post that with a straight face. > > When we discussed this, we talked about a range of things that we want > to address in the 3.12 cycle, including a fleshed-out design for text > selections, new text insertion functionality, and the need to have > public discussion. It certainly wasn't simply a question of "should we > remove it now or in 6 months time?" > > Hastily written one line commit message won't give you much insight, > and will always be misleading if you read too much into them. So again > - please don't jump to conclusions, and give us chance to publish a > more detailed plan. > > Allan Hello Allan, I'm asking you from the position of being a linux user that had used middle click for years, 10 or more. How often do you use this functionality in your daily use of gnome? please answer honestly and I want a straight answer, don't give me a marketing answer. The proposed designed is broken from start. Middle click should never change its behavior. It's crucial to have it in the way is it right now. -- Ionuț ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Ray Morris wrote: >> Not be be a jerk, but can you seriously post that with a straight face? ... >> didn't turn up anything about the middle mouse button until last week >> and that bugzilla has several people begging that the behavior not be >> changed. I don't see how that can be considered a "proposal" or "discussion" > > The bugzilla commit completely disabled middle-yank, so yes that appears to > be a proposal to change the behavior. > It was temporarily reverted with the message "we'll defer this change until > the next cycle". The way that's > worded, it sounds like it's not just a proposal to do so, it's a decision to > do so. > > According to the record, what we had was a commit that actually eliminated > the functionality (by default), > followed by _discussion_ (Mathias' word) between Mathias, Allan and Jakup to > delay it. The committer certainly > considered it a "discussion", that's what he called it. You may disagree > with his wording, but I suspect he > did in fact post that with a straight face. When we discussed this, we talked about a range of things that we want to address in the 3.12 cycle, including a fleshed-out design for text selections, new text insertion functionality, and the need to have public discussion. It certainly wasn't simply a question of "should we remove it now or in 6 months time?" Hastily written one line commit message won't give you much insight, and will always be misleading if you read too much into them. So again - please don't jump to conclusions, and give us chance to publish a more detailed plan. Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
hi; On 25 September 2013 20:50, Dave Johansen wrote: > On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Ray Morris > wrote: >> >> Allan Day said: >> >> > > I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key >> > > word "discoverable" >> > > is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. >> >> > Which page? Which proposal? >> >> >> The wiki, for example: >> https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/Selections >> >> and the Bugzilla: >> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665193 > > > Not be be a jerk, you're coming across as one. please, assume others mean well — as per Code of Conduct. > but can you seriously post that with a straight face? The > quick checks I did on the history of that wiki didn't turn up anything about > the middle mouse button until last week and that bugzilla has several people > begging that the behavior not be changed. I don't see how that can be > considered a "proposal" or "discussion" that is viewed as a good motivation > for this sort of change. the commit was reverted exactly because of lack of design and communication before a stable release, until such time when a concrete proposal can be formalised for discussion. now, can we *please*, for the love of everything's that good and pure in this Universe, close this thread? it's pointless going around in circles: you want something to discuss, and the interested parties don't have anything for you to discuss yet. wait at least until there's *something*. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
> Not be be a jerk, but can you seriously post that with a straight face? ... > didn't turn up anything about the middle mouse button until last week > and that bugzilla has several people begging that the behavior not be > changed. I don't see how that can be considered a "proposal" or "discussion" The bugzilla commit completely disabled middle-yank, so yes that appears to be a proposal to change the behavior. It was temporarily reverted with the message "we'll defer this change until the next cycle". The way that's worded, it sounds like it's not just a proposal to do so, it's a decision to do so. According to the record, what we had was a commit that actually eliminated the functionality (by default), followed by _discussion_ (Mathias' word) between Mathias, Allan and Jakup to delay it. The committer certainly considered it a "discussion", that's what he called it. You may disagree with his wording, but I suspect he did in fact post that with a straight face. From: Dave Johansen To: Ray Morris Cc: Allan Day ; "desktop-devel-list@gnome.org" Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Ray Morris wrote: Allan Day said: > >> > I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key word >> > "discoverable" >> > is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. > >> Which page? Which proposal? > > >The wiki, for example: >https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/Selections > >and the Bugzilla: >https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665193 > Not be be a jerk, but can you seriously post that with a straight face? The quick checks I did on the history of that wiki didn't turn up anything about the middle mouse button until last week and that bugzilla has several people begging that the behavior not be changed. I don't see how that can be considered a "proposal" or "discussion" that is viewed as a good motivation for this sort of change. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Wed, 2013-09-25 at 12:53 -0700, Dave Johansen wrote: > On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Allan Day wrote: > > > Tomasz Torcz wrote: > > >> You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about > > >> middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click > > >> have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better > > >> to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before > > >> we discuss it. :) > > > > > > I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design > > > process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's > > > finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. > > > > The designs haven't been publicised because they are not sufficiently > > developed, and as such have not been documented. Once they are there > > will be opportunity for discussion. > > > > I think that that's the whole complaint about this sort of change. It's a > major change to a core functionality and it's been designed "behind closed > doors"? The complaint (or at least mine) isn't that this sort of change is > happening but that it's being done without any input from users (or in this > case in blatant disregard of the input from users, i.e. several of the > comments on this bugzilla: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665193). Shouldn't the person proposing the change have the opportunity to develop a well-thought-out proposal? You make it seem like the posting of any such proposed design is the end of the discussion, but in reality it's a design proposal that can and will get discussed before being implemented (or not). Dan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Allan Day wrote: > Tomasz Torcz wrote: > >> You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about > >> middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click > >> have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better > >> to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before > >> we discuss it. :) > > > > I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design > > process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's > > finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. > > The designs haven't been publicised because they are not sufficiently > developed, and as such have not been documented. Once they are there > will be opportunity for discussion. > I think that that's the whole complaint about this sort of change. It's a major change to a core functionality and it's been designed "behind closed doors"? The complaint (or at least mine) isn't that this sort of change is happening but that it's being done without any input from users (or in this case in blatant disregard of the input from users, i.e. several of the comments on this bugzilla: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665193). ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Ray Morris wrote: > Allan Day said: > > > > I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key > word "discoverable" > > > is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. > > > Which page? Which proposal? > > > The wiki, for example: > https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/Selections > > and the Bugzilla: > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665193 > Not be be a jerk, but can you seriously post that with a straight face? The quick checks I did on the history of that wiki didn't turn up anything about the middle mouse button until last week and that bugzilla has several people begging that the behavior not be changed. I don't see how that can be considered a "proposal" or "discussion" that is viewed as a good motivation for this sort of change. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Bill Nottingham wrote: > Large changes in terms of the interaction paradigm, such as the switch from > GNOME 2 and GNOME 3, can be problematic for users, but by presenting them > with a very different interface, it can essentially 'force' a retraining, > that can be assisted by docs, introduction videos, explanations of why the > big change, and so on - "here's the new method, learn it, and go." > > Continual iterations in terms of the feature set is a great thing for users; > things like "I upgraded and now I can add my GMail contacts", or "this new > music player is much better" are great, and add value. As they are > generally either additive in nature, learned as a new application, or > interacted with in fundamentally equivalent ways (such as the new status > menu), they don't have a lot of cost of adaptation. > > Continual iteration *in terms of the interaction paradigm*, is incredibly > user-hostile, though - it looks pretty much the same as before, so they > attempt to interact the same way as before. But scrollbars now act > differently. Or their middle mouse button might behave differently. Or the > menu for some of their applications moved entirely to someplace it wasn't > before. Etc. And if this happens with a different minor thing with each > release - they get gunshy. And they start saying "Oh what did GNOME break > now?" To quote Christina Wodtke - "User don't hate change. Users hate change > that doesn't make anything better, but makes everything have to be > relearned." And the "doesn't make anything better" is in the user's mind - > it's where the value needs to be communicated to. Sticking to the topic of text selections specifically (since general discussions on mailing lists are the road to hell) - we won't make changes in this area unless there are clear benefits to users. I think there is a compelling case to be made for improvements to text selections, and it is something that people will appreciate. I also think we can make changes without too much disruption. The devil will be in the detail of course, and we'll have to wait for the designs to be fleshed out before having a serious discussion. Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Tomasz Torcz wrote: >> You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about >> middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click >> have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better >> to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before >> we discuss it. :) > > I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design > process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's > finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. The designs haven't been publicised because they are not sufficiently developed, and as such have not been documented. Once they are there will be opportunity for discussion. Just because a design is documented does not mean that it is fixed, and I fully expect that the designs will be changed as a result of public discussion. That's what happened with the system status menu last cycle, and I think that the resulting design benefited. I see no reason why the same process should not be effective in this case. Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Emmanuele Bassi (eba...@gmail.com) said: > you need a design first, if you want to comment on it. also, to dispel > a myth: no design is "finished". ever. > > there is always time to fix things. there's also a certain amount of > time between design and implementation, and then there's a certain > amount of time for testing to inform the design and change the > implementation. > > if you think that the design, once done, is also set in stone then you > probably haven't been keeping up with the development of GNOME between > 3.0 and 3.10. things get iterated continuously. some stuff also needs > to get into a release to get feedback, given that users don't check > alpha/beta releases, and distributions update GNOME every 6 to 12 > months. That's kind of the problem though, in my opinion. Large changes in terms of the interaction paradigm, such as the switch from GNOME 2 and GNOME 3, can be problematic for users, but by presenting them with a very different interface, it can essentially 'force' a retraining, that can be assisted by docs, introduction videos, explanations of why the big change, and so on - "here's the new method, learn it, and go." Continual iterations in terms of the feature set is a great thing for users; things like "I upgraded and now I can add my GMail contacts", or "this new music player is much better" are great, and add value. As they are generally either additive in nature, learned as a new application, or interacted with in fundamentally equivalent ways (such as the new status menu), they don't have a lot of cost of adaptation. Continual iteration *in terms of the interaction paradigm*, is incredibly user-hostile, though - it looks pretty much the same as before, so they attempt to interact the same way as before. But scrollbars now act differently. Or their middle mouse button might behave differently. Or the menu for some of their applications moved entirely to someplace it wasn't before. Etc. And if this happens with a different minor thing with each release - they get gunshy. And they start saying "Oh what did GNOME break now?" To quote Christina Wodtke - "User don't hate change. Users hate change that doesn't make anything better, but makes everything have to be relearned." And the "doesn't make anything better" is in the user's mind - it's where the value needs to be communicated to. Bill ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Tue, 2013-09-24 at 20:00 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: > > I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design > > process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's > > finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. > > you need a design first, if you want to comment on it. also, to dispel > a myth: no design is "finished". ever. > > there is always time to fix things. I think the truth really lies somewhere in the middle. Or rather, it depends on the *type* of feedback. Yes, there's always time to tweak things after the design has been implemented. But if you're trying to have input to the *core* of the design, that's likely to be hard to change by then. Now does seem to be about the right time to scream "you will take the middle-click paste from my cold dead fingers". Later, after the initial beta release, would be the time to say "oh, that horrid thing you've done that I never use and keep accidentally getting when I try to paste, and makes me want to throw my mouse out the window? Let's make it green instead of blue". -- dwmw2 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Allan Day said: > > I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key word > > "discoverable" > > is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. > Which page? Which proposal? The wiki, for example: https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/Selections and the Bugzilla: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665193 > the designs for what might happen to middle-click have neither been >finalised nor publicised. I think it would be > better to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before > we discuss it. :) Pelosi. I believe plans should be thought through PRIOR to being finalized. :) Particularly, general principles should be heeded even when first conceptualizing a design. Regarding the topic at hand, Larry Wall has written insightfully about the topic. In brief, he argues that systems should optimally be easy to get started with_the_basics_, then with infinitely many more and more powerful uses being available as the user learns, and as they have need for additional features. To handicap long term use in the name of reducing the things a new user might learn is folly, as users will be new for weeks or months, they'll be experienced users for years. Don't give up something that will be useful for many years to shorten a month of learning. That's a general principle, something that is worth keeping in mind before settling on any specifics. Ray Morris ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
hi; On 24 September 2013 19:49, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 07:30:58PM +0100, Allan Day wrote: >> >> You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about >> middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click >> have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better >> to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before >> we discuss it. :) > > I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design > process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's > finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. you need a design first, if you want to comment on it. also, to dispel a myth: no design is "finished". ever. there is always time to fix things. there's also a certain amount of time between design and implementation, and then there's a certain amount of time for testing to inform the design and change the implementation. if you think that the design, once done, is also set in stone then you probably haven't been keeping up with the development of GNOME between 3.0 and 3.10. things get iterated continuously. some stuff also needs to get into a release to get feedback, given that users don't check alpha/beta releases, and distributions update GNOME every 6 to 12 months. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 07:30:58PM +0100, Allan Day wrote: > > You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about > middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click > have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better > to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before > we discuss it. :) I think ”have not been publicised” is the exact pain point of design process. Wider community has no insight into design until it's finished. And it's too late for a meaningful input at that point. -- Tomasz TorczOnly gods can safely risk perfection, xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl it's a dangerous thing for a man. -- Alia ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Ray Morris wrote: > Allan Day said: > >> You're making a lot of assumptions here. When this story broke it was >> on the basis of two commits, and had no other background information. > > I've read some of the discussion. The news stories did pick up on context > menu, making it a non-default setting, etc. > It does appear that there is additional background I haven't located any > record of. I'm not making any assumptions > about what that may be. > I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key word > "discoverable" > is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. Which page? Which proposal? > Based on the available background, I'm pointing out a > principle that is true globally. > > For any system that will be used many times, over a period of time, it is > false economy > to make it simpler in the beginning by making it harder in the long run. > > The interface we're using right now, English, is a great example. Suppose > someone proposed simplifying English so > that it could be learned completely in six months, that we remove any words > or language constructs not used by > six-month-olds babies? That would of course be ridiculous. We want the > interface we're using to be deep, to have more and > more power we can discover over time. Just as young children learn "mama", > then later learn "maternal", new users can > use ctrl-c/ ctrl-v, until they learn more. (Though ctrl-c is of course a > _terrible_ habit on Linux. The same keystroke is used both > for copying data and for immediately killing the program with extreme > prejudice, losing all data.) You're making an argument about simplification in a thread about middle-click, but the designs for what might happen to middle-click have neither been finalised nor publicised. I think it would be better to wait until the text selection designs have been documented before we discuss it. :) Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Allan Day said: > You're making a lot of assumptions here. When this story broke it was > on the basis of two commits, and had no other background information. I've read some of the discussion. The news stories did pick up on context menu, making it a non-default setting, etc. It does appear that there is additional background I haven't located any record of. I'm not making any assumptions about what that may be. I have read discussion of making things easier for new users, the key word "discoverable" is used more than once on the page about the proposal, etc. Based on the available background, I'm pointing out a principle that is true globally. For any system that will be used many times, over a period of time, it is false economy | to make it simpler in the beginning by making it harder in the long run. The interface we're using right now, English, is a great example. Suppose someone proposed simplifying English so that it could be learned completely in six months, that we remove any words or language constructs not used by six-month-olds babies? That would of course be ridiculous. We want the interface we're using to be deep, to have more and more power we can discover over time. Just as young children learn "mama", then later learn "maternal", new users can use ctrl-c/ ctrl-v, until they learn more. (Though ctrl-c is of course a _terrible_ habit on Linux. The same keystroke is used both for copying data and for immediately killing the program with extreme prejudice, losing all data.) ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Le 24/09/2013 18:15, Hashem Nasarat a écrit : > Please don't be disparaging to grandmothers who use GNOME. > http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_could_do_it Do you know his grandmother? How do you know she doesn't use GNOME ? Please people, add real content to the topic, or refrain from adding noise. This is for you as well as for tglman. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On Tue, 2013-09-24 at 12:15 -0400, Hashem Nasarat wrote: > > > tnks for all the job you are doing, it's really appreciate, I can > say > > GNOME 3 is so easy to use that also my grandmother can use it!! > Please don't be disparaging to grandmothers who use GNOME. > http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_could_do_it He's not. Just like I'm not being disparaging to all fathers who use GNOME, when I say almost the same thing except "my father can use it". I never tried to get my grandmother to use GNOME. I *do* get my father to use GNOME. And it's a *painful* experience :) If you want to make rampant generalisations, that's fine. But don't then blame *me*, or Tglman, for the inferences you draw that weren't necessarily implied. -- dwmw2 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
On 09/24/2013 11:59 AM, tglman wrote: > Really?? are you removing the middle-click-paste?? > > please don't do it!! tell me what I've to patch for keep it!! I'm > ready to rewrite all Wayland !! > > tnks for all the job you are doing, it's really appreciate, I can say > GNOME 3 is so easy to use that also my grandmother can use it!! Please don't be disparaging to grandmothers who use GNOME. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_could_do_it > but is becoming too easy for be used by me ;) > > anyway thks! > > Tglman > > On 09/24/2013 04:29 PM, Ray Morris wrote: >> Middle click got Slashdotted. Some of the comments on Slashdot may be >> of interest: >> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/09/24/1252243/middle-click-paste-not-for-long >> >> It seems to me that one should be careful of any change that may, in >> a few cases, make things simpler for users while they are new, >> at the expense of reducing functionality for the next 20 years, when >> they aren't new anymore. If wanted SIMPLE interfaces, we'd >> all use baby talk. We use English to interface with each other >> because we want a POWERFUL interface, even if we spend a lifetime >> discovering new ways it can be used. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> desktop-devel-list mailing list >> desktop-devel-list@gnome.org >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list > > > > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Really?? are you removing the middle-click-paste?? please don't do it!! tell me what I've to patch for keep it!! I'm ready to rewrite all Wayland !! tnks for all the job you are doing, it's really appreciate, I can say GNOME 3 is so easy to use that also my grandmother can use it!! but is becoming too easy for be used by me ;) anyway thks! Tglman On 09/24/2013 04:29 PM, Ray Morris wrote: > Middle click got Slashdotted. Some of the comments on Slashdot may be > of interest: > http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/09/24/1252243/middle-click-paste-not-for-long > > It seems to me that one should be careful of any change that may, in a > few cases, make things simpler for users while they are new, > at the expense of reducing functionality for the next 20 years, when > they aren't new anymore. If wanted SIMPLE interfaces, we'd > all use baby talk. We use English to interface with each other > because we want a POWERFUL interface, even if we spend a lifetime > discovering new ways it can be used. > > > > > > > ___ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Middle click, "dumbing down" Slashdotted
Ray Morris wrote: > Middle click got Slashdotted. Some of the comments on Slashdot may be of > interest: > http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/09/24/1252243/middle-click-paste-not-for-long Must be a slow news day. That story is almost a month old. > It seems to me that one should be careful of any change that may, in a few > cases, make things simpler for users while they are new, > at the expense of reducing functionality for the next 20 years, when they > aren't new anymore. If wanted SIMPLE interfaces, we'd > all use baby talk. We use English to interface with each other because we > want a POWERFUL interface, even if we spend a lifetime > discovering new ways it can be used. You're making a lot of assumptions here. When this story broke it was on the basis of two commits, and had no other background information. In fact, it was precisely because we hadn't had chance to document, discuss, and fully elaborate our plans that we reverted the change. Before you go jumping to conclusions, you might want to wait to hear what we're actually hoping to do in this area. Contrary to what is being said, we are not simply planning on removing middle click paste, but I guess that detail doesn't make for interesting news stories (no one contacted us to ask what the real story is). We'll be working on a round of designs during the next development cycle, and there will be opportunities for discussion and feedback. Allan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
