Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Mon, February 13, 2006 08:19, Vincent Untz wrote: Le lundi 13 février 2006 à 10:20 +0800, Davyd Madeley a écrit : - You have new updates... not sure about this, Ubuntu started doing it, it appears at the start of every session, even when I'm not on an Internet connection. This case is really wrong: the Ubuntu update-notifier uses a notification area icon AND a notification popup. This shouldn't be allowed, except in some really important cases, IMHO. s/This shouldn't be allowed/We shouldn't do this/ It's just a suggestion for the HIG :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 21:33 +, Thomas Wood wrote: Is there any way of reliably profiling gtk engines? As far as I am aware there is no way (short of actually placing hooks in the engine) of knowing when the engine has finished painting a widget or window. To know when you are finished painting, you can use my code in gtk+/perf/gtkwidgetprofiler.[ch]. That beast is not finished, but it's a good start on having a reliable way to profile widgets. Federico ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Hi, - subtitles embedded in movies (.mkv, .ogm, dvds) still don't work - language selection (audio tracks, subtitles) still doesn't work - dvds/vcds still don't work I have the feeling that in your mails a too rosy picture of 0.8 is painted. I don't particularly like looking for and uncovering some of the dinky parts of GStreamer, but I don't think it's fair to continuously compare 0.10 and 0.8 only by a bullet list, and not on the quality of the particular bullet item. So, for comparison, I tried doing something on 0.8 that you keep claiming works fine: DVD playback. I used my 3GHz hyperthreaded home machine - my laptop has a crappy DVD drive that can't even play most dvd's I have. DVD 1: Aardvark'd + choosing audio language works - subtitles are enabled unconditionally. There is no way to turn them off from the menu (it says no subtitle selection available). - subtitle shadows bleed over the rest of the image (see http://thomas.apestaart.org/download/tmp/totem-subtitle.png; I switched to ximagesink to make the screenshot) - there's no way to go back to the main menu (nothing happens when choosing options from the Go menu) - seeking messes up the synchronization; after a seek, the audio is easily a second off from video (using osssink or alsasink) - during playback, audio repeatedly stutters in very short bursts; probably related to the A/V desync - I did one run where I did not seek at all, just let it play from the start - A/V was also not in sync already after 90 seconds - sometimes seeking doesn't do anything at all, period. I drag and release the slider, and nothing happens. No seek, no time update, nothing. - while playing it uses 70% CPU and above (using xvimagesink). Overall playback is jerky, definately not as smooth as other players. - during some runs, the initial boondoggle logo section at the start of the disc starts slowing down to a crawl at the end, then takes half a minute to complete and go to the menu + clicking on items in the menu works in the sense that it moves on to the movie ... - ... but it didn't actually do what the option said; for example I chose a different audio track from the menu, and I had the main one. I could still choose a different audio track from the menu though. - during playback, I regularly get criticals; assertions about caps changes that failed and gst_tag_list assertions - I've had a few Internal GStreamer error messages pop up during playback; surprisingly, the DVD continued playing just fine :) - two times, after a seek, it started consuming all my memory and sent my machine in a swap storm, finally killing totem. All in all, it's not even watchable if you just pop in the disc and tell it to play, without doing anything special. I tried some other DVD's as well: - Much ado about nothing: plays the MGM intro (thougn not deinterlaced), then at the end freezes, waits five seconds, pops up an Internal GStreamer error dialog, and then renders the first screen of the menu. Nothing in the menu works, play does not work, and there's no way to start the movie. - Chasing Amy: strangely enough, this presented me with the file chooser dialog when picking Play Disc. Mplayer plays it fine as a dvd. Probably not a GStreamer bug, but something lower down the stack. - meeting people is easy: annoyingly, this dvd has a 43 second warning section as the first section. Amusingly, the position indicator was jumping back and forth all the time while playing. At the end of the section, again the last frew frames slowed to a crawl completely until they faded out to black, and then I got the menu. No error dialog, so good. I could pick play from the menu, and playing worked. First seek made the movie stutter. Movie is not deinterlaced. Not in sync either. - Pixies: does not even start at all.Clicking play again throws a bunch of criticals about invalid casts, then segfaults. Mplayer plays it. This is a DVD without menus, as far as I can tell, but with several tracks. - The office series 1: starts, plays the 20 second author organisation clip. Second clip is the age guideline clip, which is scrambled until halfway through. Third clip is the BBC one. After this, a GStreamer dialog pops up, together with an initial frame from the menu. After that, nothing works anymore. These six DVD's were taken from the top of my DVD pile; they all play fine on my Playstation (my main DVD watching machine). Overall, my experience seems to match the experiences from other people out there from a quick google on totem gstreamer DVD So final score is two halves out of six - not enough to make it a bullet point pro gstreamer 0.8, I think. As has been said before in related threads - the DVD support was added late in the GNOME 2.12 cycle and with clear disclaimers. Since then, very little work has been done on it in the 0.8 branch. I don't expect much more work to be done there - you're currently the only person doing any work on the 0.8 branch, and you said
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: What are other people's experiences with DVD playback in totem/gstreamer-0.8 ? Well, I must confess that I've had very little successful DVD experience with Totem/gstreamer-0.8 (didn't try gst-0.10 yet). In most times I switched to Totem/xine or mplayer after gstreamer errors on this or that disc. I can remember only one DVD that played ok (it was one of Emir Kusturica's films). On tens of other discs gstreamer-0.8 failed almost immediately. Sorry, I still think of gstreamer as a work in progress. -- Alexey Ktirf Rusakov ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
This is exactly what I mean by notification spam. I hope to get some clarification on what is good notification and bad notification that is suitable for the HIG shortly. In my opinion this is possibly the most clear cut and legitimate case for using notifications. I think a message that essentially says that your computer will run out of gas in 2 minutes is hardly notification spam. Exactly :) Case in point, I had an overhead power transformer outside my house explode over the weekend (took out the house next door) -- and my notebook happily sat there notifying me of every new song Rhythmbox decided to play. (Every 2-3 minutes) Then the Ubuntu update notifier thingy kicked in, and left a notification dialog on my screen until I explicitly moved the mouse there and cleared it. After all that, g-p-m came up and told me my UPS had 5 minutes left. I think that means there are other places we can look for notification spam without crippling g-p-m's functionality. Regards, Paul ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 12:37:36PM +1100, Paul Drain wrote: This is exactly what I mean by notification spam. I hope to get some clarification on what is good notification and bad notification that is suitable for the HIG shortly. In my opinion this is possibly the most clear cut and legitimate case for using notifications. I think a message that essentially says that your computer will run out of gas in 2 minutes is hardly notification spam. After all that, g-p-m came up and told me my UPS had 5 minutes left. I think that means there are other places we can look for notification spam without crippling g-p-m's functionality. I certainly did not mean to imply that g-p-m was the only, or by far the worse offender, only that 4 notifications were perhaps a bit excessive. Here is a (somewhat long) list of example notifications and some notes on them. Some are good, some are bad: it is my hope that these can be reduced down to use cases for the style guidelines. Using the power management metaphor (but not referring to anything that g-p-m does) we can look at some events and attempt to discuss whether or not they warrent some form of notification: - UPS battery backup has kicked in: yes, this is not always obvious, some notification of the event is warrented - Laptop has been unplugged: this one is a little more vague, I probably carried out this action myself, but perhaps for some reason I lost power. In addition many laptops give some sort of audible notification and hardware lights change status, but you may have your sound down: what is the correct behaviour here? - You're about to run out of battery power: I made this the most obnoxious dialog in the desktop, it's large and gets in your way (but doesn't steal the focus). I don't think it should be a notification, because if you only have 5 minutes of power remaining, we want to make sure you know. The dialog automatically dismisses itself if you plug into mains. This dialog exhibits (though accidently) very similar behaviour to MacOSX. - You have used up half of your battery: who cares, you are going to look at your battery status on the panel long before the 1.5 hours it takes for this dialog to arrive. - You have 30/20/10 minutes left: I feel that your average laptop user (including me) will not be planning their laptop usage far enough ahead of time for it to matter. They're not likely to say oh, I've only got 30 minutes of power left, I'd better start working on this other task. If they're in an environment where their power is limited, they will have started working on that task first. It is my (uncorroborated) opinion that the only thing that matters is losing your work because you run out of power. - Beginning suspend: this seems redundant. Perhaps if I've run out of power, the screen should be locked for input with the message Your battery is critically low, the machine will now suspend to save you from losing your work. Please plug your machine in and power back up to continue. This should be one of those obnoxious dialogs, ideally it should appear as part of a nice graphic that takes place while a progress bar shows you that you're suspending. A notification that quickly vanishes is probably not much use, and is certainly not accessible. - Your laptop is now fully recharged; this is acceptable, if the user opts to care. Having a notification bubble for this is the current default in battstat. - Your mouse is about to go flat; this also makes sense, since now I know why my mouse stopped working. On the subject of other applications and other uses for the notification framework, there are a lot of things in which the notification framework would be useful in opt-in circumstances, eg: - new users coming online in presence framework; - the song that is playing - wall messages and other UNIX messages (eg, those sent with `write`): [EMAIL PROTECTED] says dude, you're using all the CPU time up :( Traditionally these are already opt-in/out, we should use that existing framework. Also useful: From [EMAIL PROTECTED]: charlie15 rebooting in 5 minutes for new disks. This is quite common in some multiuser environments. Here are some areas that need definite attention in any future style guidelines: - You have unused icons on your desktop... gee, thanks - Your system is insecure... possibly unhelpful, perhaps it would have been more helpful to tell me this when I somehow made it insecure. Assuming I opted to do this (which is the way it should be) perhaps I really want this message to f*ck off. - You have new updates... not sure about this, Ubuntu started doing it, it appears at the start of every session, even when I'm not on an Internet connection. I have to click on this dialog to make it go away (in Breezy at least), this was apparently impossible to do without a mouse
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Using the power management metaphor (but not referring to anything that g-p-m does) we can look at some events and attempt to discuss whether or not they warrent some form of notification: - UPS battery backup has kicked in: yes, this is not always obvious, some notification of the event is warrented Agreed, some people don't have a UPS plugged directly into the back of their machine -- so the loud 'donk' noise that's emitted needs to be substituted with something the user can see. - You're about to run out of battery power: I made this the most obnoxious dialog in the desktop, it's large and gets in your way (but doesn't steal the focus). I don't think it should be a notification, because if you only have 5 minutes of power remaining, we want to make sure you know. The dialog automatically dismisses itself if you plug into mains. This dialog exhibits (though accidently) very similar behaviour to MacOSX. Agreed, it probably doesn't need to warn in increments though, you have enough power versus you don't based on whatever the slider bar is set for in the preferences is probably suitable. - You have used up half of your battery: who cares, you are going to look at your battery status on the panel long before the 1.5 hours it takes for this dialog to arrive. - You have 30/20/10 minutes left: I feel that your average laptop user (including me) will not be planning their laptop usage far enough ahead of time for it to matter. They're not likely to say oh, I've only got 30 minutes of power left, I'd better start working on this other task. If they're in an environment where their power is limited, they will have started working on that task first. It is my (uncorroborated) opinion that the only thing that matters is losing your work because you run out of power. *nods* - Beginning suspend: this seems redundant. Perhaps if I've run out of power, the screen should be locked for input with the message Your battery is critically low, the machine will now suspend to save you from losing your work. Please plug your machine in and power back up to continue. This should be one of those obnoxious dialogs, ideally it should appear as part of a nice graphic that takes place while a progress bar shows you that you're suspending. A notification that quickly vanishes is probably not much use, and is certainly not accessible. I'd love to see that, from a sysadmin perspective, there used to be the odd support query come through that my screen went black and the lights went off -- only to find the machine had gone into suspend. FWIW, it's not just Linux that has that problem though -- suspend/hibernation issues used to happen on Win32 too. - Your laptop is now fully recharged; this is acceptable, if the user opts to care. Having a notification bubble for this is the current default in battstat. *nods* - Your mouse is about to go flat; this also makes sense, since now I know why my mouse stopped working. substitute mouse for devices that power management knows about and that'd be cool. On the subject of other applications and other uses for the notification framework, there are a lot of things in which the notification framework would be useful in opt-in circumstances, eg: - new users coming online in presence framework; - the song that is playing - wall messages and other UNIX messages (eg, those sent with `write`): [EMAIL PROTECTED] says dude, you're using all the CPU time up :( Traditionally these are already opt-in/out, we should use that existing framework. Also useful: From [EMAIL PROTECTED]: charlie15 rebooting in 5 minutes for new disks. This is quite common in some multiuser environments. Actually, things like: - 'your network is up/down/cannot be contacted', (network-monitor 2.12.0 gives you a visual icon for this, but it'd be nice to know if you'd suspended/resumed and lost your connectivity). - 'you've switched from wired-to-wireless or vice-versa' Would also be useful here. Here are some areas that need definite attention in any future style guidelines: - You have unused icons on your desktop... gee, thanks Possibly the most useless notification ever, i've had one SME installation that actually used the Windows made some of our icons vanish over the 2 week-break line to move *to* a Linux Desktop. - Your system is insecure... possibly unhelpful, perhaps it would have been more helpful to tell me this when I somehow made it insecure. Assuming I opted to do this (which is the way it should be) perhaps I really want this message to f*ck off. I guess that'd depend on if the insecurity was caused by: - not having up-to-date packages on your box (in which case, having an update manager warn you about it is more than sufficient). - your box not being firewalled. - a remote user causing trouble (multiple incorrect SSH
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006, Paul Drain wrote: - a remote user causing trouble (multiple incorrect SSH password attempts, for example). I would love Your system is under attack. So StarCrafty. :-D Oops, I successfully spammed ddl. --behdad ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 02:56:57PM +1100, Paul Drain wrote: Using the power management metaphor (but not referring to anything that g-p-m does) we can look at some events and attempt to discuss whether or not they warrent some form of notification: - UPS battery backup has kicked in: yes, this is not always obvious, some notification of the event is warrented Agreed, some people don't have a UPS plugged directly into the back of their machine -- so the loud 'donk' noise that's emitted needs to be substituted with something the user can see. Some users are also deaf or listening to something else at the time. - Beginning suspend: this seems redundant. Perhaps if I've run out of power, the screen should be locked for input with the message Your battery is critically low, the machine will now suspend to save you from losing your work. Please plug your machine in and power back up to continue. This should be one of those obnoxious dialogs, ideally it should appear as part of a nice graphic that takes place while a progress bar shows you that you're suspending. A notification that quickly vanishes is probably not much use, and is certainly not accessible. I'd love to see that, from a sysadmin perspective, there used to be the odd support query come through that my screen went black and the lights went off -- only to find the machine had gone into suspend. FWIW, it's not just Linux that has that problem though -- suspend/hibernation issues used to happen on Win32 too. It seems to me that there is a solution here in usplash/whateversplash for swsusp2, not sure about S3 sleep, however what is important for GNOME is that we understand where this message belongs. - Your mouse is about to go flat; this also makes sense, since now I know why my mouse stopped working. substitute mouse for devices that power management knows about and that'd be cool. Yeah. Mouse here is the all encompassing example for keyboard, PDA, phone, viabrator, whatever you've got plugged in or associated that we somehow know the power status of. The bubble here should be tied to a notification icon that sits in the panel as a continual passive warning that something is about to go flat. There may be a case for another warning when the device does go flat, however it may be hard to deterministically tell this case apart from another fail state. If the user knows that it was about to go flat, they will hopefully put two and two together. On the subject of other applications and other uses for the notification framework, there are a lot of things in which the notification framework would be useful in opt-in circumstances, eg: Actually, things like: - 'your network is up/down/cannot be contacted', (network-monitor 2.12.0 gives you a visual icon for this, but it'd be nice to know if you'd suspended/resumed and lost your connectivity). - 'you've switched from wired-to-wireless or vice-versa' We've got to be careful here. I feel that for actions we chose to do, we don't need notification, eg. choosing a wireless network for ourselves. This then leads us to the problem of connecting network cables, how can we tell whether a network cable was disconnected because the user chose for it to be connected or because some wanker just pulled you out of the wall. A lot of this is currently handled well through passive notification with animation (I notice when my network is reconnecting itself). As an aside, something I don't know is when I've been assigned a 169.254/16 IP address (ie. I didn't managed to get a reply from the DHCP server), but this may be resolved in more recent NetworkManager. - Your system is insecure... possibly unhelpful, perhaps it would have been more helpful to tell me this when I somehow made it insecure. Assuming I opted to do this (which is the way it should be) perhaps I really want this message to f*ck off. I guess that'd depend on if the insecurity was caused by: - not having up-to-date packages on your box (in which case, having an update manager warn you about it is more than sufficient). Certainly true. - your box not being firewalled. This depends on whether is was a concious action or not. My Ubuntu box is unfirewalled, but it also runs no services. My Fedora box is unfirewalled because I'm at work and on a secure WAN where the firewall only gets in my way. So both of these are intentional choices. I feel in this case the administrator should be warned that they are possibly making the machine insecure when they choose to disable the firewall. A consistant warning that my firewall is off (particularly if it is undismissable) would drive me insane (it has in Windows). - a remote user causing trouble (multiple incorrect SSH password attempts, for example). This is quite an interesting idea. Some sort of GNOME/libnotify based log monitoring daemon would be quite useful for some people I
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Le lundi 13 février 2006 à 10:20 +0800, Davyd Madeley a écrit : - You have new updates... not sure about this, Ubuntu started doing it, it appears at the start of every session, even when I'm not on an Internet connection. This case is really wrong: the Ubuntu update-notifier uses a notification area icon AND a notification popup. This shouldn't be allowed, except in some really important cases, IMHO. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Hi, On Sat, 2006-02-11 at 14:29 +0800, James Henstridge wrote: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller wrote: It is possible to run for instance 'gst-inspect-0.10' in the postinst script to force the registry rebuild. Will that remove the overhead for all users, or just the user who runs gst-inspect-0.10? Just that user -- so that's probably not a good idea (ie when does root run media apps?). Multi-user systems will have a startup penalty for each user. Regards, -- Andy Wingo http://wingolog.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Andy Wingo wrote: Hi, On Sat, 2006-02-11 at 14:29 +0800, James Henstridge wrote: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller wrote: It is possible to run for instance 'gst-inspect-0.10' in the postinst script to force the registry rebuild. Will that remove the overhead for all users, or just the user who runs gst-inspect-0.10? Just that user -- so that's probably not a good idea (ie when does root run media apps?). Multi-user systems will have a startup penalty for each user. Okay. I suppose the door is still open to doing fontconfig style per-directory metadata caches in the future if the delays from the current system turn out to be too noticeable. James. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Ronald S. Bultje wrote: - for every cvs up of gstreamer, my totem (or any app) still takes 10s to startup with no visual feedback This is plugin registration, right? Is it possible for distributors to trigger plugin registration as part of their package post-install scripts, or is every user of a system required to go through this after installing updates? James. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Hi, On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 16:18 +0800, James Henstridge wrote: Ronald S. Bultje wrote: - for every cvs up of gstreamer, my totem (or any app) still takes 10s to startup with no visual feedback This is plugin registration, right? Is it possible for distributors to trigger plugin registration as part of their package post-install scripts, or is every user of a system required to go through this after installing updates? When GStreamer 0.10 starts, it recursively scans the directories in your plugins path for changes. Normally this is just $prefix/lib/gstreamer-0.10, so just one directory, they're all plugins, the disk activity isn't too bad. Depending on your machine it might take a couple seconds to get everything registered. I'd be very surprised if it took 10 seconds to register an installed GStreamer. Running from CVS is another question, because then it has to scan a very deep directory structure. This takes considerably more time. Maybe 4 seconds on my box. This price is only paid by developers working from their uninstalled copies, though. There is no way to manually rebuild the registry in 0.10, so no more post-installation hooks are needed in distro packages. Regards, -- Andy Wingo http://wingolog.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Hi me, On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 10:04 +0100, Andy Wingo wrote: Depending on your machine it might take a couple seconds to get everything registered. Hm, I should clarify before the flames arrive: in the normal case, when the mtimes of the plugins haven't changed, and the set of plugins didn't change, then the registry is not rebuilt. So the normal case is that the user perceives no delay when starting their program. Ciao, -- Andy Wingo http://wingolog.org/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 15:58 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: I'd like to wait for 2.16 for gnome-power-manager. It looks great, but it doesn't look integrated enough to me, yet. Do we need to rush to accept a module in the desktop set? I don't think so. Many distributions will use it anyway. We should only accept it when we think it's ready for GNOME. (Note that it happened for quite a few modules in the past to have to wait a few release cycles before being integrated) Let's let vendors decide. This module could do with both UI and technical review. The persistant use of the notification area, the number of popup bubbles (see above comments on popup spam) and several other issues I noted, but have now forgotten are all worth considering before we bless this module. Either is good (for me as maintainer). A comment about the notification spam: the user only gets 4 notifications for low battery, very low battery and critical battery and one saying I'm doing the low-power action in 10 seconds -- and then there are a 2 optional notifications (i.e. that you can turn off in gconf) for things like notification when you remove the ac_adapter, or when the battery reaches 100%. There's been quite some cleanup-of-late in CVS, so please checkout a fresh CVS if you think the code needed some re-organisation (or love) then please comment if you think something should be done better. There's lots of stuff in bugzilla [1] of stuff in flux, like the HAL restart organisation, and the suspend notification and/or resume registration for applications, so I can understand it you think that it's not quite ready I guess if g-p-m is not a blessed module, then the string and UI freeze no longer applies -- or is the decision not yet made? Richard. [1] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?product=gnome-power-managerbug_status=UNCONFIRMEDbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENED ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Hi Richard, On Fri, February 10, 2006 13:27, Richard Hughes wrote: I guess if g-p-m is not a blessed module, then the string and UI freeze no longer applies -- or is the decision not yet made? No decision taken for now: the release team will meet in ~4 hours ;-) Oh, and thanks for working on g-p-m: power management is really important for laptop users. And I'm a laptop user :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 12:27:34PM +, Richard Hughes wrote: A comment about the notification spam: the user only gets 4 notifications for low battery, very low battery and critical battery and one saying I'm doing the low-power action in 10 seconds -- and then there are a 2 optional notifications (i.e. that you can turn off in gconf) for things like notification when you remove the ac_adapter, or when the battery reaches 100%. This is exactly what I mean by notification spam. I hope to get some clarification on what is good notification and bad notification that is suitable for the HIG shortly. I am proposing that gnome-power-manager has no notification UI, and instead consists of the daemon and the capplet. This doesn't quite deal with edge cases like your mouse battery going flat or your UPS going flat: however these are events that do not occur often. It would probably make sense in those events to place a notification icon in the system tray and a single bubble informing the user that their device is about to lose power. If users want to get a dialog of the power status for all of their devices we should offer this functionality somewhere else, perhaps in the power management properties (Mouse Power: Good/UPS Power: Good, 14 minutes). This way we avoid the notification spam and keep most of our notification passive. --d -- Davyd Madeley http://www.davyd.id.au/ 08B0 341A 0B9B 08BB 2118 C060 2EDD BB4F 5191 6CDA ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 13:38 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: Hi Richard, On Fri, February 10, 2006 13:27, Richard Hughes wrote: I guess if g-p-m is not a blessed module, then the string and UI freeze no longer applies -- or is the decision not yet made? No decision taken for now: the release team will meet in ~4 hours ;-) Oh, and thanks for working on g-p-m: power management is really important for laptop users. And I'm a laptop user :-) Thanks -- I think we are *getting* there to the situation where things just work -- no matter what the arch or the distro. Richard. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 20:41 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: If users want to get a dialog of the power status for all of their devices we should offer this functionality somewhere else, perhaps in the power management properties (Mouse Power: Good/UPS Power: Good, 14 minutes). I'm not sure the average user wants things dumbed down to this extent by default. This way we avoid the notification spam and keep most of our notification passive. What about if the notifications for low battery were just configurable (we can argue about the defaults later :-) so that you only get the last I'm dying! type notification -- the tooltip icon already changes it's icon and tooltip for all the events. Bear in mind, feedback from users has been positive about the notifications -- I've not had one complaint or bugzilla. And wow, people have been pretty picky about lots of other stuff. :-) Richard. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Hi Davyd, Davyd Madeley wrote: On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 12:27:34PM +, Richard Hughes wrote: A comment about the notification spam: the user only gets 4 notifications for low battery, very low battery and critical battery and one saying I'm doing the low-power action in 10 seconds -- and then there are a 2 optional notifications (i.e. that you can turn off in gconf) for things like notification when you remove the ac_adapter, or when the battery reaches 100%. This is exactly what I mean by notification spam. I hope to get some clarification on what is good notification and bad notification that is suitable for the HIG shortly. In my opinion this is possibly the most clear cut and legitimate case for using notifications. I think a message that essentially says that your computer will run out of gas in 2 minutes is hardly notification spam. Jon ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 09:19:48AM -0500, William Jon McCann wrote: In my opinion this is possibly the most clear cut and legitimate case for using notifications. I think a message that essentially says that your computer will run out of gas in 2 minutes is hardly notification spam. We need to take all of these opinions to form solid style guilelines on this issue. There are lots of strong opinions either way, lest we dig ourselves into a hole from which there is no escape... ... you have unused icons on your desktop --d -- Davyd Madeley http://www.davyd.id.au/ 08B0 341A 0B9B 08BB 2118 C060 2EDD BB4F 5191 6CDA ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Andy Wingo wrote: There is no way to manually rebuild the registry in 0.10, so no more post-installation hooks are needed in distro packages. I realise there is no need to manually rebuild the registry. I was just wondering if there was a way for an administrator to rebuild the registry (or a package postinst script), the same as is possible with fontconfig. I'm wondering how many users would actually correlate the increased startup time with the fact that they'd installed an OS update, rather than considering the app to be unreliable. However, if the registration is fast in the general case, then it probably isn't a problem. James. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 22:33 +0800, Davyd Madeley wrote: On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 09:19:48AM -0500, William Jon McCann wrote: In my opinion this is possibly the most clear cut and legitimate case for using notifications. I think a message that essentially says that your computer will run out of gas in 2 minutes is hardly notification spam. We need to take all of these opinions to form solid style guilelines on this issue. There are lots of strong opinions either way, lest we dig ourselves into a hole from which there is no escape... FWIW, this is probably the section of the HIG I'd most like to see in reasonable shape before we release the next version, so proposed guidelines are welcome as bug reports or (if you're brave) on the usability list. There's already a bug open about notification icons (don't have the number to hand), but IIRC it's quite long already, so a separate one for notification balloons might be appropriate. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
It is possible to run for instance 'gst-inspect-0.10' in the postinst script to force the registry rebuild. Christian On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 22:58 +0800, James Henstridge wrote: Andy Wingo wrote: There is no way to manually rebuild the registry in 0.10, so no more post-installation hooks are needed in distro packages. I realise there is no need to manually rebuild the registry. I was just wondering if there was a way for an administrator to rebuild the registry (or a package postinst script), the same as is possible with fontconfig. I'm wondering how many users would actually correlate the increased startup time with the fact that they'd installed an OS update, rather than considering the app to be unreliable. However, if the registration is fast in the general case, then it probably isn't a problem. James. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Ask and thou shall receive :) - asf and multi-language .mkv/.ogm files still don't play, .mpg functionality is still heavily limited although basic playback works Edward (bilboed) ported the ffmpeg demuxers. All ffmpeg demuxers including asf (and the weird game formats) now work. Including seeking. - subtitles embedded in movies (.mkv, .ogm, dvds) still don't work Still not ready, but Martin Soto and Edgard Lima is working on it now. - language selection (audio tracks, subtitles) still doesn't work Jan has a stream selection design done. But this still need some more work. - dvds/vcds still don't work Tim just checked in his vcd support. - thumbnailer is still broken Heh? works fine for me. - firefox plugin still doesn't playback most formats Edward is going to add push mode support to ffmpeg. - gnome-media's sound recorder still doesn't playback Works for me, got one non-critical error message, but a patch from Tim fixed that. - for every cvs up of gstreamer, my totem (or any app) still takes 10s to startup with no visual feedback Already replied to this one. Christian ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Matthias Clasen wrote: On 2/9/06, Shaun McCance [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 10:58 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: On Thu, February 9, 2006 10:41, Davyd Madeley wrote: On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 09:10:55AM +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: + gtk-engines: I quickly looked at the archives and couldn't find a mail related to it (ie there's no mail with engines in the subject ;-)). Is the issue a possible slowdown caused by the use of cairo? We have two issues here: (a) speed issues caused by Cairo; and (b) changes in the default theme (which while may be popular are also unpopular with others) Isn't be an issue in the theme (and not the engine)? Well, the new Clearlooks entails both the Cairo-enabled Clearlooks engine in gtk-engines and the Clearlooks theme data in gnome-themes. Both the engine and the theme data have changed. The theme data is probably setting a few things that are new to the engine, but most notably, it's using a brigher and more saturated set of colors. Both the engine and the theme data are responsible for point (b). The engine is responsible for point (a). Until somebody sits down and does measurements to show that use of cairo in theme engines is responsible for measurable slowdowns, this is just guesswork. Is there any way of reliably profiling gtk engines? As far as I am aware there is no way (short of actually placing hooks in the engine) of knowing when the engine has finished painting a widget or window. If anyone can think of a good way of profiling the speed of a theme, I would be very interested to know. -Thomas ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Hi Christian, Two things: - it should work is not an answer to my concerns. GStreamer 0.6 was supposed to do a lot of things that it really didn't do. Please test before making any such claims to the release-team or desktop-devel. I've spent a full weekend doing such tests for my email last month. I've spent ages and ages on GStreamer 0.8 to make sure it really did do all the things we had claimed it did for too long before. - Half of those things were supposed to be done a month ago. They are still not done, ages beyond the feature freeze and not much time left until the release candidates and the hard code freeze. What to do now? Will we ship with all the regressions if you guys turn out to not be able to fix it in time? Is there any timetable that we can keep you guys to? Ronald On Fri, 10 Feb 2006, Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller wrote: - asf and multi-language .mkv/.ogm files still don't play, .mpg functionality is still heavily limited although basic playback works Edward (bilboed) ported the ffmpeg demuxers. All ffmpeg demuxers including asf (and the weird game formats) now work. Including seeking. - subtitles embedded in movies (.mkv, .ogm, dvds) still don't work Still not ready, but Martin Soto and Edgard Lima is working on it now. - language selection (audio tracks, subtitles) still doesn't work Jan has a stream selection design done. But this still need some more work. - dvds/vcds still don't work Tim just checked in his vcd support. - thumbnailer is still broken Heh? works fine for me. - firefox plugin still doesn't playback most formats Edward is going to add push mode support to ffmpeg. - gnome-media's sound recorder still doesn't playback Works for me, got one non-critical error message, but a patch from Tim fixed that. - for every cvs up of gstreamer, my totem (or any app) still takes 10s to startup with no visual feedback Already replied to this one. Christian ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 09:10 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: + glib + pango: the only objection was Federico's gripe about the floating reference in glib 2.9. Federico, do you have an update on this? Most people seemed to be happy to go with the new versions (new stuff is gslice, pango/cairo and unicode 4.1). Floating references went in, and I still think they are a terrible idea for the reasons I wrote about in detail: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2006-January/msg00012.html http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2006-January/msg00051.html You have to understand floating references in the context of their original purpose. Quote: The complicated rules about GtkWidgets and their `floating' flag are there to avoid breaking *all* existing code. [From http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-list/1997-November/msg00245.html ] Floating references were added to GtkObject to avoid modifying *all* the apps written for GTK+ when we introduced reference counting. Today, putting floating references at the glib level is just a fetish for gratuitous complexity. Right now, my objection to floating references in stock glib is not that of a technical problem --- I think even the ABI issues with the original patches got resolved. [Can we get *real* confirmation on that, by someone who runs 2.12 language bindings with glib HEAD? Otherwise we are fucking ourselves in the ass very hard.] My objection is that floating references introduce a consistency problem for new APIs, a documentation problem, and it is just more pain for the average programmer who wants to learn our platform at the C/C++ level. Floating references do not help our users. Floating references do not help programmers, either; they just confuse them. Federico ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Le jeudi 09 février 2006 à 15:50 +0800, Davyd Madeley a écrit : Thanks, Vincent. Can we also get a list of versions the release-team intends to choose for gtk-engines, gnome-icon-theme, GLib and Pango? AFAIK: + gnome-icon-theme: we'll discuss about it in the meeting + glib + pango: the only objection was Federico's gripe about the floating reference in glib 2.9. Federico, do you have an update on this? Most people seemed to be happy to go with the new versions (new stuff is gslice, pango/cairo and unicode 4.1). + gtk-engines: I quickly looked at the archives and couldn't find a mail related to it (ie there's no mail with engines in the subject ;-)). Is the issue a possible slowdown caused by the use of cairo? Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 09:10:55AM +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: + gtk-engines: I quickly looked at the archives and couldn't find a mail related to it (ie there's no mail with engines in the subject ;-)). Is the issue a possible slowdown caused by the use of cairo? We have two issues here: (a) speed issues caused by Cairo; and (b) changes in the default theme (which while may be popular are also unpopular with others) The second can be changed without going back a version, but will require UI-freeze breakage. This is most crucial for doing the screenshots. --d -- Davyd Madeley http://www.davyd.id.au/ 08B0 341A 0B9B 08BB 2118 C060 2EDD BB4F 5191 6CDA ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Thu, February 9, 2006 10:41, Davyd Madeley wrote: On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 09:10:55AM +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: + gtk-engines: I quickly looked at the archives and couldn't find a mail related to it (ie there's no mail with engines in the subject ;-)). Is the issue a possible slowdown caused by the use of cairo? We have two issues here: (a) speed issues caused by Cairo; and (b) changes in the default theme (which while may be popular are also unpopular with others) Isn't be an issue in the theme (and not the engine)? Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On 2/9/06, Shaun McCance [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 10:58 +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: On Thu, February 9, 2006 10:41, Davyd Madeley wrote: On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 09:10:55AM +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: + gtk-engines: I quickly looked at the archives and couldn't find a mail related to it (ie there's no mail with engines in the subject ;-)). Is the issue a possible slowdown caused by the use of cairo? We have two issues here: (a) speed issues caused by Cairo; and (b) changes in the default theme (which while may be popular are also unpopular with others) Isn't be an issue in the theme (and not the engine)? Well, the new Clearlooks entails both the Cairo-enabled Clearlooks engine in gtk-engines and the Clearlooks theme data in gnome-themes. Both the engine and the theme data have changed. The theme data is probably setting a few things that are new to the engine, but most notably, it's using a brigher and more saturated set of colors. Both the engine and the theme data are responsible for point (b). The engine is responsible for point (a). Until somebody sits down and does measurements to show that use of cairo in theme engines is responsible for measurable slowdowns, this is just guesswork. Matthias ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 12:55 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: Until somebody sits down and does measurements to show that use of cairo in theme engines is responsible for measurable slowdowns, this is just guesswork. I haven't tried gtk-engines 2.7.x for a while, but after switching to cairo enabled clearlooks, clearing a minefield in gnome-games' minesweeper can be followed with my eyes at a resolution of 1280x1024x24 with a Matrox G400 or G550 on an Athlon XP 2600+. This looks like a big slowdown to me. Though Matrox cards aren't super cards when it comes to acceleration, they used to be the best cards around for desktop work. I'm talking about a simple game with tons of widgets in a matrix (I play mines at expert mode only), which is quite slow with cairo. Having a few buttons and some scrollbars isn't really noticable I guess. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Hi Davyd, Le mardi 07 février 2006 à 12:06 +0800, Davyd Madeley a écrit : Has the official list of what's in and what's out been given for GNOME 2.14 yet? Several contentious modules have been proposed for inclusion and several version holds have also been requested by people. The release notes (and assumedly vendors) are blocking on this information. So, we (the release team) seriously sucked on this. We're having a meeting on Friday to take some decisions. Here's the new modules that are in: + pyorbit + deskbar-applet + fast-user-switch-applet + gnome-python-desktop + gnome-screensaver (if it does not depend on gnome-power-manager) + pessulus (admin suite) + sabayon (admin suite) Here's the list of modules that are waiting for a decision: + libnotify notification-daemon = depends on libsexy. What should we do about it? Add it to the desktop set? Say it's a blessed dependency? Don't accept it? + gnome-power-manager = there was some opposition, and there's also some duplicate functionality (eg, the battery icon in the notification area vs the battery applet). We can accept it now, or say it's better to wait 2.16, eg. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
Here's my personal opinion. Le jeudi 09 février 2006 à 08:27 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit : Here's the list of modules that are waiting for a decision: + libnotify notification-daemon = depends on libsexy. What should we do about it? Add it to the desktop set? Say it's a blessed dependency? Don't accept it? I'm opposed to have another library for general widgets in GNOME. This should go in GTK+ or we shouldn't use them. This just like saying we'll put some more widgets in libgnomeui while some people are trying to kill libgnomeui... I might be alone in thinking this, though ;-) + gnome-power-manager = there was some opposition, and there's also some duplicate functionality (eg, the battery icon in the notification area vs the battery applet). We can accept it now, or say it's better to wait 2.16, eg. I'd like to wait for 2.16 for gnome-power-manager. It looks great, but it doesn't look integrated enough to me, yet. Do we need to rush to accept a module in the desktop set? I don't think so. Many distributions will use it anyway. We should only accept it when we think it's ready for GNOME. (Note that it happened for quite a few modules in the past to have to wait a few release cycles before being integrated) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 08:27:43AM +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: So, we (the release team) seriously sucked on this. We're having a meeting on Friday to take some decisions. Here's the new modules that are in: + pyorbit + deskbar-applet + fast-user-switch-applet + gnome-python-desktop + gnome-screensaver (if it does not depend on gnome-power-manager) + pessulus (admin suite) + sabayon (admin suite) Thanks, Vincent. Can we also get a list of versions the release-team intends to choose for gtk-engines, gnome-icon-theme, GLib and Pango? The issues of theming and any revertions need to be covered before we can proceed with screenshooting. Sorry to keep pushing the issue, but I want to get a start on this, before I find I've run out of time. --d -- Davyd Madeley http://www.davyd.id.au/ 08B0 341A 0B9B 08BB 2118 C060 2EDD BB4F 5191 6CDA ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: requesting official list of modules and versions for GNOME 2.14
On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 08:33:39AM +0100, Vincent Untz wrote: + libnotify notification-daemon = depends on libsexy. What should we do about it? Add it to the desktop set? Say it's a blessed dependency? Don't accept it? I'm opposed to have another library for general widgets in GNOME. This should go in GTK+ or we shouldn't use them. This just like saying we'll put some more widgets in libgnomeui while some people are trying to kill libgnomeui... This is an excellent point. I would really like to see libnotify available in the desktop, but here are some points I have thought of: - people don't like the Windows bubble-spam effect, we need some style guidelines in the HIG - perhaps at least libnotify belongs inside GTK+, since the API seems to now have a concept of GtkWidgets and such, it really belongs in GTK+ That said, notification-daemon should remain separate and pluggable (for example, I spoke to someone recently who hates the bubbles, but would like an applet that logs notifications on his panel; which I think would be doable in the current architecture). I think there are lots of things we haven't yet explored with this type of functionality. Sure, libnotify is really great for popups on the panel, but we should be able to attach it to any widget. Think about hints in Ailseriot: at the moment they appear as a popup box, how about instead attaching them to appropriate cards. Move the red 7 onto the black 8 would be a notification bubble attached to the red seven. + gnome-power-manager = there was some opposition, and there's also some duplicate functionality (eg, the battery icon in the notification area vs the battery applet). We can accept it now, or say it's better to wait 2.16, eg. I'd like to wait for 2.16 for gnome-power-manager. It looks great, but it doesn't look integrated enough to me, yet. Do we need to rush to accept a module in the desktop set? I don't think so. Many distributions will use it anyway. We should only accept it when we think it's ready for GNOME. (Note that it happened for quite a few modules in the past to have to wait a few release cycles before being integrated) Let's let vendors decide. This module could do with both UI and technical review. The persistant use of the notification area, the number of popup bubbles (see above comments on popup spam) and several other issues I noted, but have now forgotten are all worth considering before we bless this module. 100% agree with Vincent on this module. --d -- Davyd Madeley http://www.davyd.id.au/ 08B0 341A 0B9B 08BB 2118 C060 2EDD BB4F 5191 6CDA ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
