Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
This vote passed +4 to -3 19 days ago, but was missed. I am updating the website now to make these changes. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:41 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: That leaves me conflicted. I have a substantial dislike for doing things a way solely because that's how they have been. I can see the value in keeping things similar for those who interact, but how much is that? I'm not sure how much confusion there will be should these actions happen if we're providing the clarity on the vote type at the start of the vote, which they can reference against our bylaws when they see it's a different type then what they expected. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Sean Busbey busbey+li...@cloudera.comwrote: On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 1:18 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: I can accept those reasons for new persons in charge. What about vetoed code and adding a new codebase? I can see the giving up control as a reason to escalate things to Consensus from Majority, but I'm not seeing the reason for these 2. As Benson mentioned, vetoes on code are an artifact of how Apache has grown up. With code changes it's presumed there is a readily defined standard of correctness and vetoes are supposed to be limited to violations of such correctness. I happen to disagree with this, and would prefer that those things also fail over to Majority. However, I prefer keeping in line with ASF norms more so, because it makes it easier for those already familiar with other ASF groups to interact with us. -Sean
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
+1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you.
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
+1 -- Christopher L Tubbs II http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:33 AM, David Medinets david.medin...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you.
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
+1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Christopher ctubb...@apache.org wrote: +1 -- Christopher L Tubbs II http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:33 AM, David Medinets david.medin...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you.
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
-1 My opinion on this is overly well known. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Corey Nolet cjno...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Christopher ctubb...@apache.org wrote: +1 -- Christopher L Tubbs II http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:33 AM, David Medinets david.medin...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you. -- // Bill Havanki // Solutions Architect, Cloudera Govt Solutions // 443.686.9283
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
-1 I don't think there's been sufficient discussion on this. Also, I agree with Mike back in the previous thread. The norm is for Apache to use Majority Vote for procedural changes and I'd prefer we follow suite. I have faith that our community can build consensus in a reasonable amount of time, but sometimes you just need to take a reckoning and move on. -Sean On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Bill Havanki bhava...@clouderagovt.comwrote: -1 My opinion on this is overly well known. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Corey Nolet cjno...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Christopher ctubb...@apache.org wrote: +1 -- Christopher L Tubbs II http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:33 AM, David Medinets david.medin...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you. -- // Bill Havanki // Solutions Architect, Cloudera Govt Solutions // 443.686.9283
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
The majority of the reasoning I read in the bylaws thread justifying why bylaw changes should be majority and not consensus seemed to spiral around We don't want someone to be able to torpedo the vote. Can someone who held this opinion clarify why this is unacceptable for a bylaw change but acceptable for adopting a new code base, a new committer, a new pmc member, or a new pmc chair? Primarily I was looking at these compared to bylaw changes when I made decided that bylaws should have the same level of approval. I feel that having these items as consensus by bylaws as majority seems inconsistent. Furthermore, by having the bylaw changes at a lower level of agreement, it provides a work around for a bare minimum majority to change the bylaws to allow these actions to occur with said bare minimum majority. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Sean Busbey busbey+li...@cloudera.comwrote: -1 I don't think there's been sufficient discussion on this. Also, I agree with Mike back in the previous thread. The norm is for Apache to use Majority Vote for procedural changes and I'd prefer we follow suite. I have faith that our community can build consensus in a reasonable amount of time, but sometimes you just need to take a reckoning and move on. -Sean On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Bill Havanki bhava...@clouderagovt.com wrote: -1 My opinion on this is overly well known. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Corey Nolet cjno...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Christopher ctubb...@apache.org wrote: +1 -- Christopher L Tubbs II http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:33 AM, David Medinets david.medin...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you. -- // Bill Havanki // Solutions Architect, Cloudera Govt Solutions // 443.686.9283
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
You're quoting me, but in the interest of community harmony I yield to another who may like to clarify. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:32 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: The majority of the reasoning I read in the bylaws thread justifying why bylaw changes should be majority and not consensus seemed to spiral around We don't want someone to be able to torpedo the vote. Can someone who held this opinion clarify why this is unacceptable for a bylaw change but acceptable for adopting a new code base, a new committer, a new pmc member, or a new pmc chair? Primarily I was looking at these compared to bylaw changes when I made decided that bylaws should have the same level of approval. I feel that having these items as consensus by bylaws as majority seems inconsistent. Furthermore, by having the bylaw changes at a lower level of agreement, it provides a work around for a bare minimum majority to change the bylaws to allow these actions to occur with said bare minimum majority. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Sean Busbey busbey+li...@cloudera.com wrote: -1 I don't think there's been sufficient discussion on this. Also, I agree with Mike back in the previous thread. The norm is for Apache to use Majority Vote for procedural changes and I'd prefer we follow suite. I have faith that our community can build consensus in a reasonable amount of time, but sometimes you just need to take a reckoning and move on. -Sean On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Bill Havanki bhava...@clouderagovt.com wrote: -1 My opinion on this is overly well known. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Corey Nolet cjno...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Christopher ctubb...@apache.org wrote: +1 -- Christopher L Tubbs II http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:33 AM, David Medinets david.medin...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you. -- // Bill Havanki // Solutions Architect, Cloudera Govt Solutions // 443.686.9283 -- // Bill Havanki // Solutions Architect, Cloudera Govt Solutions // 443.686.9283
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
+1 - Original Message - From: John Vines vi...@apache.org To: Accumulo Dev List dev@accumulo.apache.org Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 11:21:11 AM Subject: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you.
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
So, I pseudo got an explanation for the second point in the CtR discussion, so I'm going to withdraw that comment. However, I would still appreciate an explanation for initial paragraph. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:32 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: The majority of the reasoning I read in the bylaws thread justifying why bylaw changes should be majority and not consensus seemed to spiral around We don't want someone to be able to torpedo the vote. Can someone who held this opinion clarify why this is unacceptable for a bylaw change but acceptable for adopting a new code base, a new committer, a new pmc member, or a new pmc chair? Primarily I was looking at these compared to bylaw changes when I made decided that bylaws should have the same level of approval. I feel that having these items as consensus by bylaws as majority seems inconsistent. Furthermore, by having the bylaw changes at a lower level of agreement, it provides a work around for a bare minimum majority to change the bylaws to allow these actions to occur with said bare minimum majority. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Sean Busbey busbey+li...@cloudera.comwrote: -1 I don't think there's been sufficient discussion on this. Also, I agree with Mike back in the previous thread. The norm is for Apache to use Majority Vote for procedural changes and I'd prefer we follow suite. I have faith that our community can build consensus in a reasonable amount of time, but sometimes you just need to take a reckoning and move on. -Sean On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Bill Havanki bhava...@clouderagovt.com wrote: -1 My opinion on this is overly well known. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Corey Nolet cjno...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Christopher ctubb...@apache.org wrote: +1 -- Christopher L Tubbs II http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:33 AM, David Medinets david.medin...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: This is a proposal to change the Bylaw Change action in the bylaws from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This is being requested because Bylaw changes are a major change to the project and all discussion should be able to be had without a borderline majority being able to force things through. Specifically, it is the following line which shall be changed Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Majority approvalActive PMC members7 to Modifying BylawsModifying this document.Consensus approvalActive PMC members 7 The current bylaws are visible at http://accumulo.apache.org/bylaws.html This vote will be open for 7 days, until 11 April 2014, 15:20 UTC. Upon successful completion of this vote, the first line of the document body will be replaced with This is version 2 of the bylaws, ( or This is version 3 of the bylaws, if the vote to change Code Changes passes) and the aforementioned line will be changed from Majority Approval to Consensus Approval. This vote requires majority approval to pass: at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 than -1's. [ ] +1 - I approve of these proposed bylaw changes and accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] +0 - I neither approve nor disapprove of these proposed bylaw changes, but accept them for the Apache Accumulo project. [ ] -1 - I do not approve of these proposed bylaw changes and do not accept them for the Apache Accumulo project because... Thank you. -- // Bill Havanki // Solutions Architect, Cloudera Govt Solutions // 443.686.9283
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:19 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: So, I pseudo got an explanation for the second point in the CtR discussion, so I'm going to withdraw that comment. However, I would still appreciate an explanation for initial paragraph. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:32 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: The majority of the reasoning I read in the bylaws thread justifying why bylaw changes should be majority and not consensus seemed to spiral around We don't want someone to be able to torpedo the vote. Can someone who held this opinion clarify why this is unacceptable for a bylaw change but acceptable for adopting a new code base, a new committer, a new pmc member, or a new pmc chair? Primarily I was looking at these compared to bylaw changes when I made decided that bylaws should have the same level of approval. I feel that having these items as consensus by bylaws as majority seems inconsistent. N.b. I don't subscribe to the we don't want someone to torpedo the vote concern. (btw I would rephrase it as we don't want casual or obstinate participants to deadlock the community.) One big difference between our bylaws and e.g. new committer, new pmc member, etc. is that after the vote passes we effectively give up control over that decision. As mentioned during the early work on the bylaws, only the ASF can remove people. For comparison, if there's a problem with the bylaws we can amend them ourselves with an additional vote. I happen to think that Majority Approval leads to better consensus building in well functioning communities. As Benson mentioned in his earlier email, it's important for the majority opinion to avoid running roughshod over the minority opinion. I think well functioning communities take this to heart and work to moderate their positions. By comparison, the nature of vetoes in Consensus Approval can lead people to squabbling over the legitimacy of a particular veto on technical grounds. At the end of the day, wether the vote is Majority or Consensus won't matter. Either of them can be abused should a segment of the community decide to and we'll be faced with very negative outcomes regardless. More important, to me, is that we not get too distracted in the process of deciding which to use. -- Sean
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
-1. I am in favor of the bylaws as a living document, and consensus makes it much more difficult to improve upon things if there is a large, but not universal, support. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Sean Busbey bus...@cloudera.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:19 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: So, I pseudo got an explanation for the second point in the CtR discussion, so I'm going to withdraw that comment. However, I would still appreciate an explanation for initial paragraph. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:32 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: The majority of the reasoning I read in the bylaws thread justifying why bylaw changes should be majority and not consensus seemed to spiral around We don't want someone to be able to torpedo the vote. Can someone who held this opinion clarify why this is unacceptable for a bylaw change but acceptable for adopting a new code base, a new committer, a new pmc member, or a new pmc chair? Primarily I was looking at these compared to bylaw changes when I made decided that bylaws should have the same level of approval. I feel that having these items as consensus by bylaws as majority seems inconsistent. N.b. I don't subscribe to the we don't want someone to torpedo the vote concern. (btw I would rephrase it as we don't want casual or obstinate participants to deadlock the community.) One big difference between our bylaws and e.g. new committer, new pmc member, etc. is that after the vote passes we effectively give up control over that decision. As mentioned during the early work on the bylaws, only the ASF can remove people. For comparison, if there's a problem with the bylaws we can amend them ourselves with an additional vote. I happen to think that Majority Approval leads to better consensus building in well functioning communities. As Benson mentioned in his earlier email, it's important for the majority opinion to avoid running roughshod over the minority opinion. I think well functioning communities take this to heart and work to moderate their positions. By comparison, the nature of vetoes in Consensus Approval can lead people to squabbling over the legitimacy of a particular veto on technical grounds. At the end of the day, wether the vote is Majority or Consensus won't matter. Either of them can be abused should a segment of the community decide to and we'll be faced with very negative outcomes regardless. More important, to me, is that we not get too distracted in the process of deciding which to use. -- Sean
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
I can accept those reasons for new persons in charge. What about vetoed code and adding a new codebase? I can see the giving up control as a reason to escalate things to Consensus from Majority, but I'm not seeing the reason for these 2. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Sean Busbey bus...@cloudera.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:19 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: So, I pseudo got an explanation for the second point in the CtR discussion, so I'm going to withdraw that comment. However, I would still appreciate an explanation for initial paragraph. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:32 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: The majority of the reasoning I read in the bylaws thread justifying why bylaw changes should be majority and not consensus seemed to spiral around We don't want someone to be able to torpedo the vote. Can someone who held this opinion clarify why this is unacceptable for a bylaw change but acceptable for adopting a new code base, a new committer, a new pmc member, or a new pmc chair? Primarily I was looking at these compared to bylaw changes when I made decided that bylaws should have the same level of approval. I feel that having these items as consensus by bylaws as majority seems inconsistent. N.b. I don't subscribe to the we don't want someone to torpedo the vote concern. (btw I would rephrase it as we don't want casual or obstinate participants to deadlock the community.) One big difference between our bylaws and e.g. new committer, new pmc member, etc. is that after the vote passes we effectively give up control over that decision. As mentioned during the early work on the bylaws, only the ASF can remove people. For comparison, if there's a problem with the bylaws we can amend them ourselves with an additional vote. I happen to think that Majority Approval leads to better consensus building in well functioning communities. As Benson mentioned in his earlier email, it's important for the majority opinion to avoid running roughshod over the minority opinion. I think well functioning communities take this to heart and work to moderate their positions. By comparison, the nature of vetoes in Consensus Approval can lead people to squabbling over the legitimacy of a particular veto on technical grounds. At the end of the day, wether the vote is Majority or Consensus won't matter. Either of them can be abused should a segment of the community decide to and we'll be faced with very negative outcomes regardless. More important, to me, is that we not get too distracted in the process of deciding which to use. -- Sean
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 1:18 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: I can accept those reasons for new persons in charge. What about vetoed code and adding a new codebase? I can see the giving up control as a reason to escalate things to Consensus from Majority, but I'm not seeing the reason for these 2. As Benson mentioned, vetoes on code are an artifact of how Apache has grown up. With code changes it's presumed there is a readily defined standard of correctness and vetoes are supposed to be limited to violations of such correctness. I happen to disagree with this, and would prefer that those things also fail over to Majority. However, I prefer keeping in line with ASF norms more so, because it makes it easier for those already familiar with other ASF groups to interact with us. -Sean
Re: [VOTE] Accumulo Bylaws - Bylaw Change Changes
That leaves me conflicted. I have a substantial dislike for doing things a way solely because that's how they have been. I can see the value in keeping things similar for those who interact, but how much is that? I'm not sure how much confusion there will be should these actions happen if we're providing the clarity on the vote type at the start of the vote, which they can reference against our bylaws when they see it's a different type then what they expected. On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Sean Busbey busbey+li...@cloudera.comwrote: On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 1:18 PM, John Vines vi...@apache.org wrote: I can accept those reasons for new persons in charge. What about vetoed code and adding a new codebase? I can see the giving up control as a reason to escalate things to Consensus from Majority, but I'm not seeing the reason for these 2. As Benson mentioned, vetoes on code are an artifact of how Apache has grown up. With code changes it's presumed there is a readily defined standard of correctness and vetoes are supposed to be limited to violations of such correctness. I happen to disagree with this, and would prefer that those things also fail over to Majority. However, I prefer keeping in line with ASF norms more so, because it makes it easier for those already familiar with other ASF groups to interact with us. -Sean
