Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
El lun, 03-04-2006 a las 12:34 +0100, Upayavira escribió: Thorsten Scherler wrote: El lun, 03-04-2006 a las 09:00 +0100, Upayavira escribió: David Crossley wrote: Upayavira wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. I am not sure if we use this in Forrest. If not then we probably should be. In my view, the whole idea of crawling (i.e. gathering links from pages) is suboptimal anyway. For example, some sites don't directly link to all pages (e.g. they are accessed via javascript, or whatever) so you get pages missed. Were I to code a new CLI, whilst I would support crawling I would mainly configure the CLI to get the list of pages to visit by calling one or more URLs. Those URLs would specify the pages to generate. Thus, Forrest would transform its site.xml file into this list of pages, and drive the CLI via that. This is what we do do. We have a property start-uri=linkmap.html http://forrest.zones.apache.org/ft/build/cocoon-docs/linkmap.html (we actually use corresponding xml of course). We define a few extra URIs in the Cocoon cli.xconf There are issues of course. Sometimes we want to include directories of files that are not referenced in site.xml navigation. For my sites i just use a DirectoryGenerator to build an index page which feeds the crawler. Sometime that technique is not sufficent. We also gather links from text files (e.g. CSS) using Chaperon. This works nicely but introduces some overhead. This more or less confirms my suggested approach - allow crawling at the 'end-point' HTML, but more importantly, use a page/URL to identify the pages to be crawled. The interesting thing from what you say is that this page could itself be nothing more than HTML. Well, yes and not really, since e.g. Chaperon is text based and no markup. You need a lex-writer to generate links for the crawler. Yes. You misunderstand me I think. Yes, sorry I did misunderstood you. Even if you use Chaperon etc to parse markup, there'd be no difficulty expressing the links that you found as an HTML page - one intended to be consumed by the CLI, not to be publically viewed. Well in the case of css you want them as well publically viewed but I got your point. ;) In fact, if it were written to disc, forrest would probably delete it afterwards. Forrest actually is *not* aimed for html only support and one can think of the situation that you want your site to be only txt (kind of a book). Here you need to crawler the lex-rewriter outcome and follow the links. Hopefully I've shown that I had understood that already :-) yeah ;) The current limitation of forrest regarding the crawler are IMO not caused by the crawler design but rather by our (as in forrest) usage of it. Yep, fair enough. But if the CLI is going to survive the shift that is happening in Cocoon trunk, something big needs to be done by someone. It cannot survive in its current form as the code it uses is changing almost beyond recognition. Heh, perhaps the Cocoon CLI should just be a Maven plugin. ...or forrest plugin. ;) This would makes it possible that cocoon, lenya and forrest committer can help. Kind of http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/lenya/sandbox/doco/ ;) salu2 -- thorsten Together we stand, divided we fall! Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Thorsten Scherler wrote: El lun, 03-04-2006 a las 12:34 +0100, Upayavira escribió: Thorsten Scherler wrote: El lun, 03-04-2006 a las 09:00 +0100, Upayavira escribió: David Crossley wrote: Upayavira wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. I am not sure if we use this in Forrest. If not then we probably should be. In my view, the whole idea of crawling (i.e. gathering links from pages) is suboptimal anyway. For example, some sites don't directly link to all pages (e.g. they are accessed via javascript, or whatever) so you get pages missed. Were I to code a new CLI, whilst I would support crawling I would mainly configure the CLI to get the list of pages to visit by calling one or more URLs. Those URLs would specify the pages to generate. Thus, Forrest would transform its site.xml file into this list of pages, and drive the CLI via that. This is what we do do. We have a property start-uri=linkmap.html http://forrest.zones.apache.org/ft/build/cocoon-docs/linkmap.html (we actually use corresponding xml of course). We define a few extra URIs in the Cocoon cli.xconf There are issues of course. Sometimes we want to include directories of files that are not referenced in site.xml navigation. For my sites i just use a DirectoryGenerator to build an index page which feeds the crawler. Sometime that technique is not sufficent. We also gather links from text files (e.g. CSS) using Chaperon. This works nicely but introduces some overhead. This more or less confirms my suggested approach - allow crawling at the 'end-point' HTML, but more importantly, use a page/URL to identify the pages to be crawled. The interesting thing from what you say is that this page could itself be nothing more than HTML. Well, yes and not really, since e.g. Chaperon is text based and no markup. You need a lex-writer to generate links for the crawler. Yes. You misunderstand me I think. Yes, sorry I did misunderstood you. Even if you use Chaperon etc to parse markup, there'd be no difficulty expressing the links that you found as an HTML page - one intended to be consumed by the CLI, not to be publically viewed. Well in the case of css you want them as well publically viewed but I got your point. ;) In fact, if it were written to disc, forrest would probably delete it afterwards. Forrest actually is *not* aimed for html only support and one can think of the situation that you want your site to be only txt (kind of a book). Here you need to crawler the lex-rewriter outcome and follow the links. Hopefully I've shown that I had understood that already :-) yeah ;) The current limitation of forrest regarding the crawler are IMO not caused by the crawler design but rather by our (as in forrest) usage of it. Yep, fair enough. But if the CLI is going to survive the shift that is happening in Cocoon trunk, something big needs to be done by someone. It cannot survive in its current form as the code it uses is changing almost beyond recognition. Heh, perhaps the Cocoon CLI should just be a Maven plugin. ...or forrest plugin. ;) This would makes it possible that cocoon, lenya and forrest committer can help. Kind of http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/lenya/sandbox/doco/ ;) Well, in the end, it is he who implements that decides. Upayavira
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
David Crossley wrote: Upayavira wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. I am not sure if we use this in Forrest. If not then we probably should be. In my view, the whole idea of crawling (i.e. gathering links from pages) is suboptimal anyway. For example, some sites don't directly link to all pages (e.g. they are accessed via javascript, or whatever) so you get pages missed. Were I to code a new CLI, whilst I would support crawling I would mainly configure the CLI to get the list of pages to visit by calling one or more URLs. Those URLs would specify the pages to generate. Thus, Forrest would transform its site.xml file into this list of pages, and drive the CLI via that. This is what we do do. We have a property start-uri=linkmap.html http://forrest.zones.apache.org/ft/build/cocoon-docs/linkmap.html (we actually use corresponding xml of course). We define a few extra URIs in the Cocoon cli.xconf There are issues of course. Sometimes we want to include directories of files that are not referenced in site.xml navigation. For my sites i just use a DirectoryGenerator to build an index page which feeds the crawler. Sometime that technique is not sufficent. We also gather links from text files (e.g. CSS) using Chaperon. This works nicely but introduces some overhead. This more or less confirms my suggested approach - allow crawling at the 'end-point' HTML, but more importantly, use a page/URL to identify the pages to be crawled. The interesting thing from what you say is that this page could itself be nothing more than HTML. Regards, Upayavira
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
El lun, 03-04-2006 a las 09:00 +0100, Upayavira escribió: David Crossley wrote: Upayavira wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. I am not sure if we use this in Forrest. If not then we probably should be. In my view, the whole idea of crawling (i.e. gathering links from pages) is suboptimal anyway. For example, some sites don't directly link to all pages (e.g. they are accessed via javascript, or whatever) so you get pages missed. Were I to code a new CLI, whilst I would support crawling I would mainly configure the CLI to get the list of pages to visit by calling one or more URLs. Those URLs would specify the pages to generate. Thus, Forrest would transform its site.xml file into this list of pages, and drive the CLI via that. This is what we do do. We have a property start-uri=linkmap.html http://forrest.zones.apache.org/ft/build/cocoon-docs/linkmap.html (we actually use corresponding xml of course). We define a few extra URIs in the Cocoon cli.xconf There are issues of course. Sometimes we want to include directories of files that are not referenced in site.xml navigation. For my sites i just use a DirectoryGenerator to build an index page which feeds the crawler. Sometime that technique is not sufficent. We also gather links from text files (e.g. CSS) using Chaperon. This works nicely but introduces some overhead. This more or less confirms my suggested approach - allow crawling at the 'end-point' HTML, but more importantly, use a page/URL to identify the pages to be crawled. The interesting thing from what you say is that this page could itself be nothing more than HTML. Well, yes and not really, since e.g. Chaperon is text based and no markup. You need a lex-writer to generate links for the crawler. Forrest actually is *not* aimed for html only support and one can think of the situation that you want your site to be only txt (kind of a book). Here you need to crawler the lex-rewriter outcome and follow the links. The current limitation of forrest regarding the crawler are IMO not caused by the crawler design but rather by our (as in forrest) usage of it. salu2 -- thorsten Together we stand, divided we fall! Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Thorsten Scherler wrote: El lun, 03-04-2006 a las 09:00 +0100, Upayavira escribió: David Crossley wrote: Upayavira wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. I am not sure if we use this in Forrest. If not then we probably should be. In my view, the whole idea of crawling (i.e. gathering links from pages) is suboptimal anyway. For example, some sites don't directly link to all pages (e.g. they are accessed via javascript, or whatever) so you get pages missed. Were I to code a new CLI, whilst I would support crawling I would mainly configure the CLI to get the list of pages to visit by calling one or more URLs. Those URLs would specify the pages to generate. Thus, Forrest would transform its site.xml file into this list of pages, and drive the CLI via that. This is what we do do. We have a property start-uri=linkmap.html http://forrest.zones.apache.org/ft/build/cocoon-docs/linkmap.html (we actually use corresponding xml of course). We define a few extra URIs in the Cocoon cli.xconf There are issues of course. Sometimes we want to include directories of files that are not referenced in site.xml navigation. For my sites i just use a DirectoryGenerator to build an index page which feeds the crawler. Sometime that technique is not sufficent. We also gather links from text files (e.g. CSS) using Chaperon. This works nicely but introduces some overhead. This more or less confirms my suggested approach - allow crawling at the 'end-point' HTML, but more importantly, use a page/URL to identify the pages to be crawled. The interesting thing from what you say is that this page could itself be nothing more than HTML. Well, yes and not really, since e.g. Chaperon is text based and no markup. You need a lex-writer to generate links for the crawler. Yes. You misunderstand me I think. Even if you use Chaperon etc to parse markup, there'd be no difficulty expressing the links that you found as an HTML page - one intended to be consumed by the CLI, not to be publically viewed. In fact, if it were written to disc, forrest would probably delete it afterwards. Forrest actually is *not* aimed for html only support and one can think of the situation that you want your site to be only txt (kind of a book). Here you need to crawler the lex-rewriter outcome and follow the links. Hopefully I've shown that I had understood that already :-) The current limitation of forrest regarding the crawler are IMO not caused by the crawler design but rather by our (as in forrest) usage of it. Yep, fair enough. But if the CLI is going to survive the shift that is happening in Cocoon trunk, something big needs to be done by someone. It cannot survive in its current form as the code it uses is changing almost beyond recognition. Heh, perhaps the Cocoon CLI should just be a Maven plugin. Upayavira
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Upayavira wrote: Ah, I wasn't getting that subtle. I was simply saying that I can agree with using the servlet API for _all_ environments. The CLI becomes nothing more than a custom servlet container that uses a servlet to generate its pages. In fact, having said that, it becomes yet another tool that is actually independent of Cocoon - it could be used to crawl pages generated by _any_ servlet, not just the Cocoon one. Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Sylvain -- Sylvain Wallez http://bluxte.net Apache Software Foundation Member
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Sylvain Wallez wrote: Upayavira wrote: Ah, I wasn't getting that subtle. I was simply saying that I can agree with using the servlet API for _all_ environments. The CLI becomes nothing more than a custom servlet container that uses a servlet to generate its pages. In fact, having said that, it becomes yet another tool that is actually independent of Cocoon - it could be used to crawl pages generated by _any_ servlet, not just the Cocoon one. Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, SN AG http://www.s-und-n.de http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. Sylvain -- Sylvain Wallez http://bluxte.net Apache Software Foundation Member
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Sylvain Wallez wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. Yepp. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. Right. So the question is, if someone is using this feature :) Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, SN AG http://www.s-und-n.de http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Sylvain Wallez wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. In my view, the whole idea of crawling (i.e. gathering links from pages) is suboptimal anyway. For example, some sites don't directly link to all pages (e.g. they are accessed via javascript, or whatever) so you get pages missed. Were I to code a new CLI, whilst I would support crawling I would mainly configure the CLI to get the list of pages to visit by calling one or more URLs. Those URLs would specify the pages to generate. Thus, Forrest would transform its site.xml file into this list of pages, and drive the CLI via that. Whilst gathering links from within pipelines is clever, it always struck me as awkward at the same time. Regards, Upayavira
Re: A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Upayavira wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hmm... the current CLI uses Cocoon's links view to crawl the website. So although the new crawler can be based on servlets, it will assume these servlets to answer to a ?cocoon-view=links :-) Hmm, I think we don't need the links view in this case anymore. A simple HTML crawler should be enough as it will follow all links on the page. The view would only make sense in the case where you don't output html where the usual crawler tools would not work. In the case of Forrest, you're probably right. Now the links view also allows to follow links in pipelines producing something that's not HTML, such as PDF, SVG, WML, etc. We have to decide if we want to loose this feature. I am not sure if we use this in Forrest. If not then we probably should be. In my view, the whole idea of crawling (i.e. gathering links from pages) is suboptimal anyway. For example, some sites don't directly link to all pages (e.g. they are accessed via javascript, or whatever) so you get pages missed. Were I to code a new CLI, whilst I would support crawling I would mainly configure the CLI to get the list of pages to visit by calling one or more URLs. Those URLs would specify the pages to generate. Thus, Forrest would transform its site.xml file into this list of pages, and drive the CLI via that. This is what we do do. We have a property start-uri=linkmap.html http://forrest.zones.apache.org/ft/build/cocoon-docs/linkmap.html (we actually use corresponding xml of course). We define a few extra URIs in the Cocoon cli.xconf There are issues of course. Sometimes we want to include directories of files that are not referenced in site.xml navigation. For my sites i just use a DirectoryGenerator to build an index page which feeds the crawler. Sometime that technique is not sufficent. We also gather links from text files (e.g. CSS) using Chaperon. This works nicely but introduces some overhead. -David Whilst gathering links from within pipelines is clever, it always struck me as awkward at the same time. Regards, Upayavira
A new CLI (was Re: [RT] The environment abstraction, part II)
Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Upayavira wrote: David Crossley wrote: Carsten Ziegeler wrote: I can't speak for Daniel, but my idea/suggestion was to forget about the different environments and let Cocoon always run in a servlet container. The CLI would then be kind of a http client which starts up jetty and then generates the site using http requests. This would simplify some things in Cocoon, the question is if this would make the life of Forrest too hard? Thanks to you all for the followup. I don't have a ready answer yet. Will make sure that the other Forrest people are aware. In the end, it doesn't really matter that much, and will be up to whoever volunteers to implement the new CLI. It depends a little bit on how we see things. My opinion :) is to remove the environment abstraction completly and simply use the servlet environment while others might think that we should only base our environment abstraction on the servlet api but allow to run Cocoon in a different environment which provides *some* features of the servlet environment but not all. The difference might be subtle, but its not the same. Ah, I wasn't getting that subtle. I was simply saying that I can agree with using the servlet API for _all_ environments. The CLI becomes nothing more than a custom servlet container that uses a servlet to generate its pages. In fact, having said that, it becomes yet another tool that is actually independent of Cocoon - it could be used to crawl pages generated by _any_ servlet, not just the Cocoon one. Regards, Upayavira
