Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
On 10 Feb 2004, at 13:40, Upayavira wrote: How's that? +1 from me. Andrew. -- Andrew Savory, Managing Director, Luminas Limited Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658 Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135 Web: http://www.luminas.co.uk/ Orixo alliance: http://www.orixo.com/
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote: I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you. Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am today: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts web application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. How's that sound? Your votes please. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote: I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you. Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am today: skip nice retoric How's that sound? Your votes please. /Steven nice :-) +1 Cheche
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote: I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you. Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am today: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts web application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. Sounds good. Concern though is that it reads 'web-centric'. Whilst Cocoon is 'primarily' about web publishing and applications, it is not 'exclusively' about that. Get that in there somewhere, and I'll be happy! Regards, Upayavira
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Steven Noels wrote:
On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote:
I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd
like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you.
Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am
today:
The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based
exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks
with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms
and separation of concerns through composability rather than
programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and
other open source libraries. It hosts web application development
frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development
tools built for these frameworks and applications.
How's that sound? Your votes please.
Looks good, even if a bit abstract. But that's the mission statement and
not the marketing material.
So +1!
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Orixo, the opensource XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Upayavira wrote:
Steven Noels wrote:
On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote:
I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd
like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you.
Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am
today:
The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based
exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks
with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms
and separation of concerns through composability rather than
programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and
other open source libraries. It hosts web application development
frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development
tools built for these frameworks and applications.
Sounds good. Concern though is that it reads 'web-centric'. Whilst
Cocoon is 'primarily' about web publishing and applications, it is not
'exclusively' about that. Get that in there somewhere, and I'll be happy!
It all depends on what we understand by web. Considering the CLI (your
pet Cocoon environment), the final target is web publishing, isn't it?
Now that's true that I also use the CocoonBean in a Swing application
that has no relation to the web. But this seems very marginal to me.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Orixo, the opensource XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Sylvain Wallez wrote: Upayavira wrote: Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote: I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you. Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am today: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts web application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. Sounds good. Concern though is that it reads 'web-centric'. Whilst Cocoon is 'primarily' about web publishing and applications, it is not 'exclusively' about that. Get that in there somewhere, and I'll be happy! It all depends on what we understand by web. Considering the CLI (your pet Cocoon environment), the final target is web publishing, isn't it? I wasn't really thinking of the CLI, because, as you say, it is 'web' still. But there's the JMS stuff in CVS already, there 'could' be a maillet environment at some point, and I don't want to see our goals blocking those. Some small caveat is all that is needed. Now that's true that I also use the CocoonBean in a Swing application that has no relation to the web. But this seems very marginal to me. Yup, but other environments _could_ come along that aren't so marginal. And, IMO, our 'mission statement' needs to include all areas where we 'could reasonably' go, e.g. development tools (of which we have very few at the mo). Regards, Upayavira
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Upayavira wrote: Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote: I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you. Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am today: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts web application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. Sounds good. Concern though is that it reads 'web-centric'. Whilst Cocoon is 'primarily' about web publishing and applications, it is not 'exclusively' about that. Get that in there somewhere, and I'll be happy! would just dropping web from web application frameworks work? Geoff
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
On 10 Feb 2004, at 13:34, Geoff Howard wrote: would just dropping web from web application frameworks work? I'd change web into internet. Vague enough? ;-) /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Geoff Howard wrote: Upayavira wrote: Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote: I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you. Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am today: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts web application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. Sounds good. Concern though is that it reads 'web-centric'. Whilst Cocoon is 'primarily' about web publishing and applications, it is not 'exclusively' about that. Get that in there somewhere, and I'll be happy! would just dropping web from web application frameworks work? Okay, I'll bite: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of application frameworks, specifically but not exclusively web related. It focuses on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and extending existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. How's that? Upayavira
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Upayavira wrote: Geoff Howard wrote: Upayavira wrote: Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote: I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you. Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am today: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts web application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. Sounds good. Concern though is that it reads 'web-centric'. Whilst Cocoon is 'primarily' about web publishing and applications, it is not 'exclusively' about that. Get that in there somewhere, and I'll be happy! would just dropping web from web application frameworks work? Okay, I'll bite: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of application frameworks, specifically but not exclusively web related. It focuses on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and extending existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. How's that? Sounds good to me. You might want to run this thru the board first, though, since I'm not that sure they would buy everything we might throw at them. -- Stefano.
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Upayavira wrote: Okay, I'll bite: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of application frameworks, specifically but not exclusively web related. It focuses on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and extending existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. How's that? +1 Vadim
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Upayavira wrote: Geoff Howard wrote: Upayavira wrote: Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:24, Steven Noels wrote: I'll try to wordsmith this into a short mission statement, but I'd like to hear whether this categorization makes sense to you. Thanks for all your comments suggestions. Let's see how lyric I am today: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of web application frameworks with a focus on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and adding onto existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts web application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. Sounds good. Concern though is that it reads 'web-centric'. Whilst Cocoon is 'primarily' about web publishing and applications, it is not 'exclusively' about that. Get that in there somewhere, and I'll be happy! would just dropping web from web application frameworks work? Okay, I'll bite: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of application frameworks, specifically but not exclusively web related. It focuses on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and extending existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. How's that? +1 from me. Geoff
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
On 10.02.2004 14:40, Upayavira wrote: Okay, I'll bite: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of application frameworks, specifically but not exclusively web related. It focuses on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and extending existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. How's that? +1 Joerg
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of application frameworks, specifically but not exclusively web related. It focuses on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and extending existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. How's that? +1 from me. here is my +1 -- Torsten
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 08:11:26PM +0100, Torsten Curdt wrote: The Apache Cocoon Community Project fosters community-based exploration, design and implementation of application frameworks, specifically but not exclusively web related. It focuses on XML pipelining, centralized configuration mechanisms and separation of concerns through composability rather than programmability, by combining and extending existing Apache and other open source libraries. It hosts application development frameworks, applications built on these frameworks, and development tools built for these frameworks and applications. How's that? +1 from me. here is my +1 -- Torsten +1 --Tim Larson
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
On 05 Feb 2004, at 11:54, Carsten Ziegeler wrote: My first thought while reading this was that I'm really unsure if we need such limitations. Honestly, I don't know. Well, it has been repeatedly suggested by the board, and I think their point is fair. We should be able to describe what we do in a more generic sense. Look at the recent logging/portal TLP efforts. I've even been daydreaming whether the Cocoon portal shouldn't cross-liaise/find common grounds with the new portal TLP, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. What happens if we forget something in this mission statement? Then we need to change and defend the chance to the board. No biggies, me thinks. And if we really need this, at least a category for tools is missing. +1 /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 12:10, Carsten Ziegeler wrote: We should be able to describe what we do in a more generic sense. Look at the recent logging/portal TLP efforts. I've even been daydreaming whether the Cocoon portal shouldn't cross-liaise/find common grounds with the new portal TLP, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Although it's irrelevant here, I wanted to propose to move the cocoon portal to the portal TLP as soon as the portal TLP is more concrete. Cool - like that! So, it's up to all of us to choose the correct categories. Good. Yep - other suggestions? Would there be benefit to keeping it more general: XML based application and publishing framework and applications built on and in support of that framework.
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
On 5 Feb 2004, at 06:46, Geoff Howard wrote: Steven Noels wrote: On 05 Feb 2004, at 12:10, Carsten Ziegeler wrote: We should be able to describe what we do in a more generic sense. Look at the recent logging/portal TLP efforts. I've even been daydreaming whether the Cocoon portal shouldn't cross-liaise/find common grounds with the new portal TLP, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Although it's irrelevant here, I wanted to propose to move the cocoon portal to the portal TLP as soon as the portal TLP is more concrete. Cool - like that! So, it's up to all of us to choose the correct categories. Good. Yep - other suggestions? Would there be benefit to keeping it more general: XML based application and publishing framework and applications built on and in support of that framework. Glad to see this moving forward. Thanks, Steven. I agree with Carsten that moving Cocoon Portal to the future portal.apache.org makes perfect sense. I would suggest coming up with a name for it (Cocoon Portal is good as long as you keep it inside) [please no acroynims, not even recursive ones ;-)] As for the charter, I agree with Goeff here: we need to keep it general or we would need the board to change our charter every day. So, I would: 1) keep it language neutral: many people dislike java, but they can leave with it if th application is worth the effort (think lisp and emacs, for example) 2) keep it technology neutral (don't say XML/XSLT/SAX/DOM) 3) aim to identify the achitectural principles (modularity, composability, separation of concerns, feature reductionism) I know that we can always has the board to change the charter, and, to be honest, they don't care much as long as the community behaves well and cocoon has been a champion on that so they are very easy going with us. But the technological landscape might change dramattically in the future. We might substitute Java for another langauge if Microsoft buys Sun and kills it. We might move from SAX to something else. We might declare XSLT too complex. Who knows! Think about flowscript: would you have thought that javascript would be there side by side with the sitemap? Let's not limit ourselves to the technology, that's just an instrument and moves along with time (and we should *not* be willing to avoid trying out new technological directions) On the other hand, Cocoon *does* have an identity and it's because of its design principles: 1) composability instead of programmability 2) enforcing separation of concerns 3) minimizing overseparation of concerns 4) less is more, but no less than what you need I'm perfectly aware of the fact that these might be so broad that the board might not be happy with it, so I'm willing to get some tradeoffs and put some names and technology so that we can nail it down on where we are today, but these are my thoughts. -- Stefano.
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Tim Larson wrote: On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:48:29AM -0500, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: On 5 Feb 2004, at 06:46, Geoff Howard wrote: Would there be benefit to keeping it more general: XML based application and publishing framework and applications built on and in support of that framework. As for the charter, I agree with Goeff here: we need to keep it general or we would need the board to change our charter every day. So, I would: 1) keep it language neutral: many people dislike java, but they can leave with it if th application is worth the effort (think lisp and emacs, for example) 2) keep it technology neutral (don't say XML/XSLT/SAX/DOM) 3) aim to identify the achitectural principles (modularity, composability, separation of concerns, feature reductionism) If the board requires specific technology names, lets keep the technology choices low-key. We could talk about the architectural principles and then just mention that this is currently implemented using XYZ technologies. This would let us be specific about the technologies in use now, without creating a social contract to always use this same list of technologies. I hope the architectural principles are enough so this document will not have to specifically mention Java, SAX, etc. Like Stefano, I think Cocoon's main purpose is to make it possible to follow good design principles, such as SoC, modularity, etc., and pushing certain technologies is merely a side effect of needing to have an actual implementation of the framework. We should actually be distinguishing carefully here IMO between Cocoon's purpose, and the purpose of the Cocoon TLP. I think we all agree that for the foreseeable future, we should keep Cocoon proper focused on XML pipelines, using Java. If someone wants to make a .Net port of Cocoon and make it work using binary pipelines, using C#, then we could make a sister project within the TLP called Cartoon or something. It would be out of scope for Cocoon to do that, but not necessarily for the TLP. Now, the question in my mind is how far to we want the TLP to be allowed to go away from what we now know of Cocoon? so we don't get a TLP that has to allow projects to do anything with any technology but also don't have undue burden to innovate. Geoff
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Tim Larson wrote: On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:48:29AM -0500, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: As for the charter, I agree with Goeff here: we need to keep it general or we would need the board to change our charter every day. I suggest also to mention integration of different software into a package which can be used to build web apps. Cocoon integrates lots of Apache and non-Apache software together. Vadim
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Hi, I've been following this thread and I've kept wondering: what is a TLP??? :=) nicolas Le Jeudi 05 Février 2004 16:17, Geoff Howard a écrit : Tim Larson wrote: On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:48:29AM -0500, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: On 5 Feb 2004, at 06:46, Geoff Howard wrote: Would there be benefit to keeping it more general: XML based application and publishing framework and applications built on and in support of that framework. As for the charter, I agree with Goeff here: we need to keep it general or we would need the board to change our charter every day. So, I would: 1) keep it language neutral: many people dislike java, but they can leave with it if th application is worth the effort (think lisp and emacs, for example) 2) keep it technology neutral (don't say XML/XSLT/SAX/DOM) 3) aim to identify the achitectural principles (modularity, composability, separation of concerns, feature reductionism) If the board requires specific technology names, lets keep the technology choices low-key. We could talk about the architectural principles and then just mention that this is currently implemented using XYZ technologies. This would let us be specific about the technologies in use now, without creating a social contract to always use this same list of technologies. I hope the architectural principles are enough so this document will not have to specifically mention Java, SAX, etc. Like Stefano, I think Cocoon's main purpose is to make it possible to follow good design principles, such as SoC, modularity, etc., and pushing certain technologies is merely a side effect of needing to have an actual implementation of the framework. We should actually be distinguishing carefully here IMO between Cocoon's purpose, and the purpose of the Cocoon TLP. I think we all agree that for the foreseeable future, we should keep Cocoon proper focused on XML pipelines, using Java. If someone wants to make a .Net port of Cocoon and make it work using binary pipelines, using C#, then we could make a sister project within the TLP called Cartoon or something. It would be out of scope for Cocoon to do that, but not necessarily for the TLP. Now, the question in my mind is how far to we want the TLP to be allowed to go away from what we now know of Cocoon? so we don't get a TLP that has to allow projects to do anything with any technology but also don't have undue burden to innovate. Geoff
RE: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
top level project See the left menu at http://www.apache.org/ for all Apache TLP -- Reinhard -Original Message- From: Nicolas Toper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 5:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP Hi, I've been following this thread and I've kept wondering: what is a TLP??? :=) nicolas Le Jeudi 05 Février 2004 16:17, Geoff Howard a écrit : Tim Larson wrote: On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:48:29AM -0500, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: On 5 Feb 2004, at 06:46, Geoff Howard wrote: Would there be benefit to keeping it more general: XML based application and publishing framework and applications built on and in support of that framework. As for the charter, I agree with Goeff here: we need to keep it general or we would need the board to change our charter every day. So, I would: 1) keep it language neutral: many people dislike java, but they can leave with it if th application is worth the effort (think lisp and emacs, for example) 2) keep it technology neutral (don't say XML/XSLT/SAX/DOM) 3) aim to identify the achitectural principles (modularity, composability, separation of concerns, feature reductionism) If the board requires specific technology names, lets keep the technology choices low-key. We could talk about the architectural principles and then just mention that this is currently implemented using XYZ technologies. This would let us be specific about the technologies in use now, without creating a social contract to always use this same list of technologies. I hope the architectural principles are enough so this document will not have to specifically mention Java, SAX, etc. Like Stefano, I think Cocoon's main purpose is to make it possible to follow good design principles, such as SoC, modularity, etc., and pushing certain technologies is merely a side effect of needing to have an actual implementation of the framework. We should actually be distinguishing carefully here IMO between Cocoon's purpose, and the purpose of the Cocoon TLP. I think we all agree that for the foreseeable future, we should keep Cocoon proper focused on XML pipelines, using Java. If someone wants to make a .Net port of Cocoon and make it work using binary pipelines, using C#, then we could make a sister project within the TLP called Cartoon or something. It would be out of scope for Cocoon to do that, but not necessarily for the TLP. Now, the question in my mind is how far to we want the TLP to be allowed to go away from what we now know of Cocoon? so we don't get a TLP that has to allow projects to do anything with any technology but also don't have undue burden to innovate. Geoff
RE: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Top Level Project -Original Message- From: Nicolas Toper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 8:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP Hi, I've been following this thread and I've kept wondering: what is a TLP??? :=) nicolas Le Jeudi 05 Février 2004 16:17, Geoff Howard a écrit : Tim Larson wrote: On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:48:29AM -0500, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: On 5 Feb 2004, at 06:46, Geoff Howard wrote: Would there be benefit to keeping it more general: XML based application and publishing framework and applications built on and in support of that framework. As for the charter, I agree with Goeff here: we need to keep it general or we would need the board to change our charter every day. So, I would: 1) keep it language neutral: many people dislike java, but they can leave with it if th application is worth the effort (think lisp and emacs, for example) 2) keep it technology neutral (don't say XML/XSLT/SAX/DOM) 3) aim to identify the achitectural principles (modularity, composability, separation of concerns, feature reductionism) If the board requires specific technology names, lets keep the technology choices low-key. We could talk about the architectural principles and then just mention that this is currently implemented using XYZ technologies. This would let us be specific about the technologies in use now, without creating a social contract to always use this same list of technologies. I hope the architectural principles are enough so this document will not have to specifically mention Java, SAX, etc. Like Stefano, I think Cocoon's main purpose is to make it possible to follow good design principles, such as SoC, modularity, etc., and pushing certain technologies is merely a side effect of needing to have an actual implementation of the framework. We should actually be distinguishing carefully here IMO between Cocoon's purpose, and the purpose of the Cocoon TLP. I think we all agree that for the foreseeable future, we should keep Cocoon proper focused on XML pipelines, using Java. If someone wants to make a .Net port of Cocoon and make it work using binary pipelines, using C#, then we could make a sister project within the TLP called Cartoon or something. It would be out of scope for Cocoon to do that, but not necessarily for the TLP. Now, the question in my mind is how far to we want the TLP to be allowed to go away from what we now know of Cocoon? so we don't get a TLP that has to allow projects to do anything with any technology but also don't have undue burden to innovate. Geoff
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Nicolas Toper wrote: Hi, I've been following this thread and I've kept wondering: what is a TLP??? :=) Top Level Project. Cocoon was recently promoted within the Apache organization from a sub-project of the XML TLP (http://xml.apache.org) to its own TLP (http://cocoon.apache.org). At present there are only two children projects of this TLP: Cocoon, and Lenya as you can see under the Projects section on the root page at the site. Geoff
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Nicolas Toper wrote:
Hi,
I've been following this thread and I've kept wondering: what is a TLP???
Top Level Project, i.e. cocoon.apache.org and not
xml.apache.org/cocoon as it used to be.
A TLP has a PMC (Project Management Comittee) that decides the goals,
roadmap and orientations of the TLP, and ensure that all subprojects
(the Cocoon framework and the incubating Lenya as of now) live and
behave properly regarding both the TLP goals and the ASF (Apache
Software Foundation).
Yeah, lots of 3-letters acronyms ;-)
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Orixo, the opensource XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
On 5 Feb 2004, at 11:08, Nicolas Toper wrote: Hi, I've been following this thread and I've kept wondering: what is a TLP??? :=) Yeah, right. sorry :-) TLP is a Top Level Project, basically anything that is like *.apache.org. cocoon became TLP when it moved from inside xml.apache.org (so under the supervision of the Apache XML Project Management Committee [PMC]) to cocoon.apache.org (under the supervision of the Apache Cocoon PMC). Steven is the chair of that committee and reports to the ASF board of directors, which required us to clear up our PMC charter status. -- Stefano.
RE: Goal of the Cocoon TLP
Top Level Project Oz -Original Message- From: Nicolas Toper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 6 February 2004 3:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Goal of the Cocoon TLP Hi, I've been following this thread and I've kept wondering: what is a TLP??? :=) nicolas Le Jeudi 05 Février 2004 16:17, Geoff Howard a écrit : Tim Larson wrote: On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:48:29AM -0500, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: On 5 Feb 2004, at 06:46, Geoff Howard wrote: Would there be benefit to keeping it more general: XML based application and publishing framework and applications built on and in support of that framework. As for the charter, I agree with Goeff here: we need to keep it general or we would need the board to change our charter every day. So, I would: 1) keep it language neutral: many people dislike java, but they can leave with it if th application is worth the effort (think lisp and emacs, for example) 2) keep it technology neutral (don't say XML/XSLT/SAX/DOM) 3) aim to identify the achitectural principles (modularity, composability, separation of concerns, feature reductionism) If the board requires specific technology names, lets keep the technology choices low-key. We could talk about the architectural principles and then just mention that this is currently implemented using XYZ technologies. This would let us be specific about the technologies in use now, without creating a social contract to always use this same list of technologies. I hope the architectural principles are enough so this document will not have to specifically mention Java, SAX, etc. Like Stefano, I think Cocoon's main purpose is to make it possible to follow good design principles, such as SoC, modularity, etc., and pushing certain technologies is merely a side effect of needing to have an actual implementation of the framework. We should actually be distinguishing carefully here IMO between Cocoon's purpose, and the purpose of the Cocoon TLP. I think we all agree that for the foreseeable future, we should keep Cocoon proper focused on XML pipelines, using Java. If someone wants to make a .Net port of Cocoon and make it work using binary pipelines, using C#, then we could make a sister project within the TLP called Cartoon or something. It would be out of scope for Cocoon to do that, but not necessarily for the TLP. Now, the question in my mind is how far to we want the TLP to be allowed to go away from what we now know of Cocoon? so we don't get a TLP that has to allow projects to do anything with any technology but also don't have undue burden to innovate. Geoff
