RE: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Adam Ratcliffe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >We could in theory have a couple 100 different SWF's many of > >which are slight variations on each other. We'd generate the > >Laszlo source for them from Cocoon, customized for each user > >as needed and then send the resultant compiled SWF over to the > >client. Those SWF would then hang around on the client > >bouncing XML back and forth with Cocoon. > > I'm wondering to what extent customization of a SWF for a > given client needs to be handled at compile time. Runtime > setting of the properties of UI elements, such as their > visibility, based upon the XML dataset could handle a wide > range of customization requirements. That's a good question. Basically it's a trade off between a fat client and a thin client. The more understanding of the data you put on the front end the less a declarative form of client like Laszlo is going to make sense. I don't think there is a single best answer. In our case we have requirements for things like type-ahead and combo boxes that aren't met by HTML. However, once a page is generated it really doesn't need a lot of other client side intelligence (though good client side validation and conditional element exposure is also required it can be done with traditional JavaScript/HTML). > I haven't used CForms yet, it sounds like the binding of > these components on the server-side would more frequently > result in the creation of unique LZX source. Yes, the question is, how often is a particular form going to be reused? For us, we can't really tell, on any given day it could be once or it could be 1000's of times. In such cases I think the answer is good cache management and not trying to build heavy weight clients. > I'm not suggesting that we don't need a Laszlo serializer, it > sounds like a good idea, interested in getting a better idea > of cases in which it would be useful to handle per-client > variation through creation of unique LZX. Well, I've been doing Client Server systems for some 15 years now. Every time I get into building heavy weight clients I run into issues of distributed code management that just aren't worth the hassle. If you're truly doing per-client customization you may have a unique case that justifies solving these problems. However, I rarely encounter a situation that calls for true per client customization. Usually, at worse, it ends up being aggregation of standardized components in a frame type system. Having said that, let me note that you need to strike a balance. Keeping things like color and font management on the client side often solves a lot of issues that might otherwise result in generation of unique pages.
RE: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
>We could in theory have a couple 100 different SWF's many of >which are slight variations on each other. We'd generate the >Laszlo source for them from Cocoon, customized for each user >as needed and then send the resultant compiled SWF over to the >client. Those SWF would then hang around on the client >bouncing XML back and forth with Cocoon. I'm wondering to what extent customization of a SWF for a given client needs to be handled at compile time. Runtime setting of the properties of UI elements, such as their visibility, based upon the XML dataset could handle a wide range of customization requirements. I haven't used CForms yet, it sounds like the binding of these components on the server-side would more frequently result in the creation of unique LZX source. I'm not suggesting that we don't need a Laszlo serializer, it sounds like a good idea, interested in getting a better idea of cases in which it would be useful to handle per-client variation through creation of unique LZX. Cheers Adam
RE: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
JD Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > hmmm > > I have been rolling this around in my head for the last few > days. Here > is some of my thoughts: > > 1.) Separation of concerns.. I am not sure that a cocoon component > really needs to built... what is wrong with having an app with two > contexts? ie: > http://domain/laszlo/app1 > which would get datsets etc from: > http://domain/cocoon/somepipline(s) > although I am of course noticing there is quite a bit of jar > duplication > between the two. You're missing the point: I don't want a single app, I want many apps all generated on an as needed basis. It's not "app1" but "appN" where N varies from 1 to 2000 and I need 2000 different laszlo lzx files that can change on a minute by minute basis. > 2.) CForms.. I have just gotten a grip on, and subsequently > addicted to, > cforms and flow with POJOs. Can the laszlo form objects be bound to > widgets? ( I could just be dumb in this regard... insight is > appreciated) Looks to me that to use cforms, we would have have to > generate the app for each request.. to create repeaters and such. I've been wondering about this a bit myself. You'd likely need to have a deeper understanding within the Laszlo components themselves as to what a repeater or dynamic sections looks like. These new components would essentially duplicate some of the logic of the current back end, binding would be in effect a concern of the Laszlo components in some cases. > I am not against anything at all... I am really weak on cocoon > internals, but I am very excited by the idea of laszlo apps :) :) indeed repeat of the above first point
RE: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Luca Garulli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Some people claim that Cocoon has no added value used with > Laszlo since any MVC-like application (Struts & Co.) can use > Laszlo just with a XML parser. Obviously such people don't have to deal with the generation of a lot of complex XML. Even in a pure Web services scenario Cocoon can have value. If you are dealing with a set of static documents and a set of static SWF, then sure, maybe you don't need Cocoon. > > Caching of SWF, by itself, could be a good reason to use > Cocoon along with Laszlo. Well, the claim is that Laszlo server itself will also provides caching so no real extra value there...
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
hmmm I have been rolling this around in my head for the last few days. Here is some of my thoughts: 1.) Separation of concerns.. I am not sure that a cocoon component really needs to built... what is wrong with having an app with two contexts? ie: http://domain/laszlo/app1 which would get datsets etc from: http://domain/cocoon/somepipline(s) although I am of course noticing there is quite a bit of jar duplication between the two. 2.) CForms.. I have just gotten a grip on, and subsequently addicted to, cforms and flow with POJOs. Can the laszlo form objects be bound to widgets? ( I could just be dumb in this regard... insight is appreciated) Looks to me that to use cforms, we would have have to generate the app for each request.. to create repeaters and such. I am not against anything at all... I am really weak on cocoon internals, but I am very excited by the idea of laszlo apps :) Sylvain Wallez wrote: Hunsberger, Peter wrote: Adam Ratcliffe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: This sounded to me like they were using Cocoon as an XML data source for binding to a Laszlo dataset requiring no integration of the technologies. While a Laszlo serializer would certainly be interesting I imagine that recompiling the SWF for each request would hurt performance. Don't think anyone is suggesting that you recompile a SWF for each request. One of the key advantages I see in using RIA technologies like Laszlo is that you get a continuous user interface without the need to keep going back to the server to get new pages. A precompiled SWF calling back to Cocoon for XML data would seem to be able to do that today. We could in theory have a couple 100 different SWF's many of which are slight variations on each other. We'd generate the Laszlo source for them from Cocoon, customized for each user as needed and then send the resultant compiled SWF over to the client. Those SWF would then hang around on the client bouncing XML back and forth with Cocoon. Exactly. And the produced SWF data would be stored in the Cocoon cache, thus avoiding recreating them from scratch each time a particular SWF is requested. Just as we already do today with all other formats. Sylvain
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Some people claim that Cocoon has no added value used with Laszlo
since any MVC-like application (Struts & Co.) can use Laszlo just with
a XML parser.
Caching of SWF, by itself, could be a good reason to use Cocoon along
with Laszlo.
bye,
Luca Garulli
www.OrienTechnologies.com
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:39:37 +0200, Sylvain Wallez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Hunsberger, Peter wrote:
>
> >Adam Ratcliffe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >>This sounded to me like they were using Cocoon as an XML data
> >>source for binding to a Laszlo dataset requiring no
> >>integration of the technologies.
> >>
> >>While a Laszlo serializer would certainly be interesting I
> >>imagine that recompiling the SWF for each request would hurt
> >>performance.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Don't think anyone is suggesting that you recompile a SWF for each
> >request.
> >
> >
> >
> >>One of the key advantages I see in using RIA
> >>technologies like Laszlo is that you get a continuous user
> >>interface without the need to keep going back to the server
> >>to get new pages. A precompiled SWF calling back to Cocoon
> >>for XML data would seem to be able to do that today.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >We could in theory have a couple 100 different SWF's many of which are
> >slight variations on each other. We'd generate the Laszlo source for
> >them from Cocoon, customized for each user as needed and then send the
> >resultant compiled SWF over to the client. Those SWF would then hang
> >around on the client bouncing XML back and forth with Cocoon.
> >
> >
>
> Exactly.
>
> And the produced SWF data would be stored in the Cocoon cache, thus
> avoiding recreating them from scratch each time a particular SWF is
> requested. Just as we already do today with all other formats.
>
>
>
> Sylvain
>
> --
> Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
> http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
> { XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
>
>
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Hunsberger, Peter wrote:
Adam Ratcliffe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
This sounded to me like they were using Cocoon as an XML data
source for binding to a Laszlo dataset requiring no
integration of the technologies.
While a Laszlo serializer would certainly be interesting I
imagine that recompiling the SWF for each request would hurt
performance.
Don't think anyone is suggesting that you recompile a SWF for each
request.
One of the key advantages I see in using RIA
technologies like Laszlo is that you get a continuous user
interface without the need to keep going back to the server
to get new pages. A precompiled SWF calling back to Cocoon
for XML data would seem to be able to do that today.
We could in theory have a couple 100 different SWF's many of which are
slight variations on each other. We'd generate the Laszlo source for
them from Cocoon, customized for each user as needed and then send the
resultant compiled SWF over to the client. Those SWF would then hang
around on the client bouncing XML back and forth with Cocoon.
Exactly.
And the produced SWF data would be stored in the Cocoon cache, thus
avoiding recreating them from scratch each time a particular SWF is
requested. Just as we already do today with all other formats.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
RE: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Adam Ratcliffe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > This sounded to me like they were using Cocoon as an XML data > source for binding to a Laszlo dataset requiring no > integration of the technologies. > > While a Laszlo serializer would certainly be interesting I > imagine that recompiling the SWF for each request would hurt > performance. Don't think anyone is suggesting that you recompile a SWF for each request. > One of the key advantages I see in using RIA > technologies like Laszlo is that you get a continuous user > interface without the need to keep going back to the server > to get new pages. A precompiled SWF calling back to Cocoon > for XML data would seem to be able to do that today. We could in theory have a couple 100 different SWF's many of which are slight variations on each other. We'd generate the Laszlo source for them from Cocoon, customized for each user as needed and then send the resultant compiled SWF over to the client. Those SWF would then hang around on the client bouncing XML back and forth with Cocoon.
RE: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
This sounded to me like they were using Cocoon as an XML data source for binding to a Laszlo dataset requiring no integration of the technologies. While a Laszlo serializer would certainly be interesting I imagine that recompiling the SWF for each request would hurt performance. One of the key advantages I see in using RIA technologies like Laszlo is that you get a continuous user interface without the need to keep going back to the server to get new pages. A precompiled SWF calling back to Cocoon for XML data would seem to be able to do that today. Cheers Adam -Original Message- From: Luca Garulli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 8 October 2004 3:25 a.m. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon? Laszlo... watch here: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=29237#141539 bye, Luca Garulli www.OrienTechnologies.com On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:10:42 -0800, JD Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I went to make one up.. .but they only wanted to send me a cd for 9 > bucks - no download :/ > > think i will wait and see what develops out of laszlo :) > > JD > > > > Greg Weinger wrote: > > > Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote: > > > >> Rogier Peters wrote: > >> > >>> Forgive me for promoting the non-free solution, but I've always > >>> thought that Macromedia's own flex[1] is a very nice solution, > >>> being java-based and all. For those who don't know, the short is > >>> that it takes an xml dialect and renders it to a Flash UI. It > >>> should make a nice frontend for cocoon-generated xml. So I'll > >>> offer a cigar to the first person who makes a cocoon-forms to > >>> macromedia flex serializer. > >>> > >>> [1]http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/solutions/developers/ > >> > >> > >> > >> there are those (like macromedia founder marc canter) who think > >> flex is a laszlo rip-off... > > > > > > Can anyone give me a quick comparison of the feature sets of flex > > and laszlo? We've been exploring flex because of its rich animation > > features. > > > > > >
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Il giorno 07/ott/04, alle 18:09, Sylvain Wallez ha scritto: This can have many use cases in multi-channel applications. A single abstract page definition can produce HTML, WML, Laszlo, etc. Do you mean using Laszlo as a library, not as a server? Is it possible? Ugo -- Ugo Cei - http://beblogging.com/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Andreas Kuckartz wrote: Sylvain Wallez wrote: What I'm talking about is a Laszlo serializer to dynamically produce the SWF file. Can the XMLSerializer be used for that purpose ? no, the serializer needs to call out into the laszlo machinery to create the swf from the xml. much like the deprecated/removed swf serializer ...only way more sophisticated ;-) cheers -- Torsten
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Sylvain Wallez wrote: > What I'm talking about is a Laszlo serializer > to dynamically produce the SWF file. Can the XMLSerializer be used for that purpose ? Andreas
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Luca Garulli wrote:
Laszlo... watch here:
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=29237#141539
AFAIU, this describes using Cocoon for answering Laszlo's XML-RPC/SOAP
requests. This doesn't need any particular Cocoon integration. What I'm
talking about is a Laszlo serializer to dynamically produce the SWF file.
This can have many use cases in multi-channel applications. A single
abstract page definition can produce HTML, WML, Laszlo, etc.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Laszlo... watch here: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=29237#141539 bye, Luca Garulli www.OrienTechnologies.com On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:10:42 -0800, JD Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I went to make one up.. .but they only wanted to send me a cd for 9 > bucks - no download :/ > > think i will wait and see what develops out of laszlo :) > > JD > > > > Greg Weinger wrote: > > > Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote: > > > >> Rogier Peters wrote: > >> > >>> Forgive me for promoting the non-free solution, but I've always > >>> thought that Macromedia's own flex[1] is a very nice solution, being > >>> java-based and all. For those who don't know, the short is that it > >>> takes an xml dialect and renders it to a Flash UI. It should make a > >>> nice frontend for cocoon-generated xml. So I'll offer a cigar to the > >>> first person who makes a cocoon-forms to macromedia flex serializer. > >>> > >>> [1]http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/solutions/developers/ > >> > >> > >> > >> there are those (like macromedia founder marc canter) who think flex > >> is a laszlo rip-off... > > > > > > Can anyone give me a quick comparison of the feature sets of flex and > > laszlo? We've been exploring flex because of its rich animation > > features. > > > > > >
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
I went to make one up.. .but they only wanted to send me a cd for 9 bucks - no download :/ think i will wait and see what develops out of laszlo :) JD Greg Weinger wrote: Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote: Rogier Peters wrote: Forgive me for promoting the non-free solution, but I've always thought that Macromedia's own flex[1] is a very nice solution, being java-based and all. For those who don't know, the short is that it takes an xml dialect and renders it to a Flash UI. It should make a nice frontend for cocoon-generated xml. So I'll offer a cigar to the first person who makes a cocoon-forms to macromedia flex serializer. [1]http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/solutions/developers/ there are those (like macromedia founder marc canter) who think flex is a laszlo rip-off... Can anyone give me a quick comparison of the feature sets of flex and laszlo? We've been exploring flex because of its rich animation features.
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote: Rogier Peters wrote: Forgive me for promoting the non-free solution, but I've always thought that Macromedia's own flex[1] is a very nice solution, being java-based and all. For those who don't know, the short is that it takes an xml dialect and renders it to a Flash UI. It should make a nice frontend for cocoon-generated xml. So I'll offer a cigar to the first person who makes a cocoon-forms to macromedia flex serializer. [1]http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/solutions/developers/ there are those (like macromedia founder marc canter) who think flex is a laszlo rip-off... Can anyone give me a quick comparison of the feature sets of flex and laszlo? We've been exploring flex because of its rich animation features.
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Rogier Peters wrote: Forgive me for promoting the non-free solution, but I've always thought that Macromedia's own flex[1] is a very nice solution, being java-based and all. For those who don't know, the short is that it takes an xml dialect and renders it to a Flash UI. It should make a nice frontend for cocoon-generated xml. So I'll offer a cigar to the first person who makes a cocoon-forms to macromedia flex serializer. [1]http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/solutions/developers/ there are those (like macromedia founder marc canter) who think flex is a laszlo rip-off... -- Gregor J. Rothfuss Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya http://wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: rich clients in Flash with Cocoon?
Forgive me for promoting the non-free solution, but I've always thought that Macromedia's own flex[1] is a very nice solution, being java-based and all. For those who don't know, the short is that it takes an xml dialect and renders it to a Flash UI. It should make a nice frontend for cocoon-generated xml. So I'll offer a cigar to the first person who makes a cocoon-forms to macromedia flex serializer. [1]http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/solutions/developers/ Sylvain Wallez wrote: This has been blogged here and there: Laszlo [1], a servlet-based platform to produce rich clients in Flash from XML+javascript descriptions has gone opensource yesterday. I invite you to have a look at the demos, and try out the one called "XML editor" where you can put your hands on what looks like a really nice thing. As Bertrand says [2] "the first person to write a Cocoon serializer and samples for Laszlo gets a very large glass of their favorite drink". Hurry up! Sylvain [1] http://www.openlaszlo.org/ [2] http://codeconsult.ch/bertrand/archives/000380.html
