Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
Le 1 mai 04, à 00:15, Sylvain Wallez a écrit :
..Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me
than spamming grabbed email addresses...
Same as others, I have no problem with Cocoon-related commercial
announcements on our lists provided
a) sender is in some way a member of the community
b) such messages are clearly marked for example with [ANN] (or maybe a
new [BIZ]) marker in the subject
c) the number of such messages stays low.
Ok, there seems to be a general consensus for this approach, which after
more thinking I find finally better than underground uncontrolled spam.
Next question is if we consider that listing commercial resources on our
website is a good thing or not. We already have a training section [1],
in the external resources section (yes, Anyware is there), but we may
want to move it to a new commercial resources section containing other
kinds of resources (consulting, products, etc). IMO, this is as
important as listing live sites, as it shows newcomers that Cocoon is a
well established and widely used product for which they can find many
kinds of commercial support.
Struts has such a list of external resources, but although it used to be
on the Apache website, the link now points to an SF project [2] (powered
by Forrest BTW)
WDYT?
Sylvain
[1] http://cocoon.apache.org/link/training.html
[2] http://struts.sourceforge.net/community/index.html
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
I feel a bit left out for not having received the 'spam' ;-) On Sat, 2004-05-01 at 00:15, Sylvain Wallez wrote: snip/ Nevertheless, a lot of people are doing their lives with Cocoon, and it's very difficult to get in touch with Cocoon users. How could we do this in a community-friendly way? Add a section on the Cocoon website? Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email addresses. I don't think anyone would have had a problem with that. There have been announcements for other Cocoon courses, books, hosting services etc. on the users list. -- Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
On 01.05.2004 12:19, Bruno Dumon wrote: I feel a bit left out for not having received the 'spam' ;-) Exactly my feeling. Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email addresses. I don't think anyone would have had a problem with that. There have been announcements for other Cocoon courses, books, hosting services etc. on the users list. Yes, I see no problems sending clearly marked announcements (e.g. [ANN] in the subject) to the users list. I only would not like to see my email address in yet another excel file/access db ;-) Joerg
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
On 01 May 2004, at 00:15, Sylvain Wallez wrote: Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email addresses. It does to me, since the lists are the fabric of our community. Just add some [ADD] prefix to the subject and its purpose would be quite clear. If you send irrelevant information, you'll be flamed on the spot. :-) Another option could be to have some commercial news section on our website, perhaps also with some RSS feeds. Anyone who would like to be included on that page needs to send his announcement/article/whatever to the PMC and the PMC checks whether the announcement is relevant/applicable. WDYT? /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Tony Collen wrote:
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Folks, I would like to apologize about the ad/spam many of you have
received today, and that I discovered this afternoon while being at a
customer site (the customer received the spam and is also on
cocoon-{users,dev}).
Not a problem, Sylvain! No hard feelings on this side. I'm sorry if
I came off as a little grouchy in my earlier message, I had just woken
up, and it wasn't a good way to start the day.
Oh, sorry to have made your awakening difficult :-/
I sincerely and deeply apologize for what happened. Monday morning,
I'll had a strong explanation with this guy, so that he learns once
for all some of the rules of the opensource world. Some of these
rules also are no different from that of the real world: gaining
trust and confidence from other people is a long and difficult task,
and loosing it can happen very fast. I don't want to loose the trust
and confidence of the Cocoon community, which has been so important
to me for many years. Today is the 3rd birthday of me becoming a
Cocoon committer. Sad birthday.
Smack him upside the head with a copy of the Cluetrain :)
Mmmh... I think I will slap him with a copy of the Cluetrain ;-P
Happy birthday, BTW...
Thanks!
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Steven Noels wrote:
On 01 May 2004, at 00:15, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me
than spamming grabbed email addresses.
It does to me, since the lists are the fabric of our community. Just
add some [ADD] prefix to the subject and its purpose would be quite
clear. If you send irrelevant information, you'll be flamed on the
spot. :-)
You're right. Irrelevant and aggressive announcement will be flamed
right away, quickly leading to self regulation.
Another option could be to have some commercial news section on our
website, perhaps also with some RSS feeds. Anyone who would like to be
included on that page needs to send his announcement/article/whatever
to the PMC and the PMC checks whether the announcement is
relevant/applicable.
Having a section on commercial offering is good (we already have it
somehow), but what's needed is something more proactive to notify
people of upcoming events such as these training sessions, and I don't
think people are looking the website in search of regularily updated
data. Sure, a RSS feed would help, but how much will subscribe to this feed?
IMO, a good balance can be to have a combination of both: a short
announcement on the mailing-list inviting interested people to visit a
web page, be it on the Apache site or not. We have to be careful though
about hosting such announcements on the Apache server as it may look
like an endorsement from the PMC, and thus lead to frictions between
those that have the PMC's agreement and those that don't have it. It's
not the PMC job to select commercial offerings around Cocoon, although
it can be considered its responsibility to pay back active contributors
by giving them more visibility. Not that easy.
WDYT?
Ah, and I also apologize for those who are disapointed because they have
_not_ received the spam ;-)
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
On 01 May 2004, at 14:37, Sylvain Wallez wrote: Having a section on commercial offering is good (we already have it somehow), but what's needed is something more proactive to notify people of upcoming events such as these training sessions, and I don't think people are looking the website in search of regularily updated data. Sure, a RSS feed would help, but how much will subscribe to this feed? If it's any good, they will come. Don't you and your family visit small shops who don't do any advertising, just because of word-of-mouth, i.e. someone referring you to it? If we have an actively maintained ad section with an RSS feed, pointing to interesting web pages, this might be enough for people to subscribe to that feed and decide for themselves how frequently they'll check that feed. I wouldn't even mind having a course calendar with all offerings side-by-side on our site: it shows people Cocoon is a serious project, and that they can choose to attend courses in plenty of different locations. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Le 1 mai 04, à 00:15, Sylvain Wallez a écrit : ..Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email addresses... Same as others, I have no problem with Cocoon-related commercial announcements on our lists provided a) sender is in some way a member of the community b) such messages are clearly marked for example with [ANN] (or maybe a new [BIZ]) marker in the subject c) the number of such messages stays low. -Bertrand
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
a) sender is in some way a member of the community +1, make that an active member b) such messages are clearly marked for example with [ANN] (or maybe a new [BIZ]) marker in the subject +1 for [BIZ], maybe there is a way to automatically put [BIZ] messages in a moderation queue? c) the number of such messages stays low. 1 - don't want the list to become a marketing plug. @Sylvain: thanks for your thorough explanation of how this all happened, I never did believe it was actually you sending it :) The story of the over-eager and merciless marketing dept sounds very familiar to me! Happy 3rd anniversary btw, may many more years follow :-) Regards Jorg Heymans
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
Folks, I would like to apologize about the ad/spam many of you have
received today, and that I discovered this afternoon while being at a
customer site (the customer received the spam and is also on
cocoon-{users,dev}).
Not a problem, Sylvain! No hard feelings on this side. I'm sorry if I
came off as a little grouchy in my earlier message, I had just woken up,
and it wasn't a good way to start the day.
snip what=explanation/
I sincerely and deeply apologize for what happened. Monday morning, I'll
had a strong explanation with this guy, so that he learns once for all
some of the rules of the opensource world. Some of these rules also are
no different from that of the real world: gaining trust and confidence
from other people is a long and difficult task, and loosing it can
happen very fast. I don't want to loose the trust and confidence of the
Cocoon community, which has been so important to me for many years.
Today is the 3rd birthday of me becoming a Cocoon committer. Sad birthday.
Smack him upside the head with a copy of the Cluetrain :) Happy
birthday, BTW...
Nevertheless, a lot of people are doing their lives with Cocoon, and
it's very difficult to get in touch with Cocoon users. How could we do
this in a community-friendly way? Sending announcements to -users
doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email
addresses. I'm very interested in hearing your opinions and starting a
discussion about the relations of the Cocoon community and the people
that provide some commercial services around it.
Here's what I would do: Send a message to -dev and -users explaining
that you're going to be starting to send out (commercial) announcements
regarding what you do, and if anyone is interested, to either sign up on
a site or send a message to a special email address.
That way, you don't spam the list with the announcements, and people can
totally opt-in. I think that's the key.
I had also mentioned this off-list: I think it might also be wise for
you guys to publish some RSS feeds (in multiple languages if possible)
that have these announcements. IMO that would be the most
community-friendly way. I'm in the process of starting my own
consulting company, and I'm already helping one client who sees the
light of RSS and how annoying commercial email can get. I'm thrilled to
see the direction that it can take.
Sylvain
PS: I was first thinking of sending this email from my work email
address, but finally chose to use my apache address since these
apologies come from a member of the Cocoon community that felt offended
by this.
Regards,
Tony
