Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
On 2 July 2015 at 18:05, Pierre Smits wrote: > It is a good thing that the board and the President regard the Code of > Conduct page as an official ASF policy and expect others to follow it, but > when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that > projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their > business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger... > I think you are driving a simple statement far longer than intended. We do not (luckily) have many polices at ASF, but of course a project must follow those. A project can independent, make extra policies or even harden the ASF policies (e.g. voting rules). A project that act totally independent of ASF only following the license rules, cannot really be a ASF project. > Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing > it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their > bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to incorporate > it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement, > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure that exactly this happened. I for one, does not see things as negative as you signal. Things can always improve, but please not in the direction, that board installs a policy police. We, the committers, are those "controlling" that polices are kept,not the board or any exec office. just my opinion. rgds jan i. > > Something to think about when making statement like these > > Best regards, > > Pierre Smits > > Op donderdag 2 juli 2015 heeft Shane Curcuru het > volgende geschreven: > > > On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote: > > >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of > > >> conduct" > > >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned. > > >> > > >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need." > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far. > > > > More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear that > > the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions at ASF > > events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it when > > working here on Apache projects. > > > > Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or not) > > their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one we've chosen > > here. > > > > - Shane > > > > > > > > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an > > > expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes > > > explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life > > > without thinking about their interactions. > > > > > > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at > > > random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is > > > absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures, > > > timezones, projects, and many other borders. > > > > > > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way > > > to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful > thought > > > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks. > > > > > > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the > > > code of conduct. > > > > > > --Rich > > > > > >> > > >> Cheers > > >> Stefan > > >> > > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz > > >> > > >>> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Hi, > > >>> > > >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of > > >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad, > > >>> and I tend to agree. > > >>> > > >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in > any > > >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies > > >>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think > that's > > >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the > Apache > > >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe > > >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF". > > >>> > > >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory. > > >>> > > >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while > > >>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered > > >>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in > > >>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our > > >>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common > > >>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing > > >>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same > goes > > >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between > > >>> cultures. > > >>> > > >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own > > >>> territory. > > >>> >
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
It is a good thing that the board and the President regard the Code of Conduct page as an official ASF policy and expect others to follow it, but when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger... Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to incorporate it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement. Something to think about when making statement like these Best regards, Pierre Smits Op donderdag 2 juli 2015 heeft Shane Curcuru het volgende geschreven: > On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > > > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote: > >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of > >> conduct" > >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned. > >> > >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need." > > > > > > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far. > > More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear that > the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions at ASF > events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it when > working here on Apache projects. > > Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or not) > their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one we've chosen > here. > > - Shane > > > > > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an > > expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes > > explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life > > without thinking about their interactions. > > > > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at > > random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is > > absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures, > > timezones, projects, and many other borders. > > > > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way > > to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful thought > > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks. > > > > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the > > code of conduct. > > > > --Rich > > > >> > >> Cheers > >> Stefan > >> > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz > >> > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of > >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad, > >>> and I tend to agree. > >>> > >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any > >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies > >>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's > >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache > >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe > >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF". > >>> > >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory. > >>> > >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while > >>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered > >>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in > >>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our > >>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common > >>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing > >>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes > >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between > >>> cultures. > >>> > >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own > >>> territory. > >>> > >>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify > >>> that: > >>> > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** > >>> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache > >>> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing > >>> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other > >>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which > >>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the > >>> published ASF anti-harassment policy. > >>> > >>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who > >>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims > >>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related > >>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role. > >>> > >>> This code is not exhaustive or complete(unchanged from here on) > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** > >>> > >>> What do people think? > >>> -B
Re: Better specifying the scope of our Code of Conduct
On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote: >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of >> conduct" >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned. >> >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need." > > > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far. More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear that the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions at ASF events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it when working here on Apache projects. Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or not) their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one we've chosen here. - Shane > > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an > expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes > explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life > without thinking about their interactions. > > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at > random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is > absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures, > timezones, projects, and many other borders. > > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way > to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful thought > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks. > > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the > code of conduct. > > --Rich > >> >> Cheers >> Stefan >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz >> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad, >>> and I tend to agree. >>> >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in any >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies >>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think that's >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the Apache >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF". >>> >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory. >>> >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while >>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered >>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in >>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our >>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common >>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing >>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same goes >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between >>> cultures. >>> >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own >>> territory. >>> >>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify >>> that: >>> >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** >>> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache >>> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing >>> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other >>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which >>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the >>> published ASF anti-harassment policy. >>> >>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who >>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or claims >>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related >>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role. >>> >>> This code is not exhaustive or complete(unchanged from here on) >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** >>> >>> What do people think? >>> -Bertrand >>> >> > >
Re: Reporter.apache.org displaying incorrect data - who is responsible for the host?
On 2 July 2015 at 07:22, Hervé BOUTEMY wrote: > Le mercredi 1 juillet 2015 09:10:42 sebb a écrit : >> On 1 July 2015 at 07:02, Hervé BOUTEMY wrote: >> > I asked about it one week ago (with analysis of the VM state), but got no >> > answer. >> > Seems the only one to know is Daniel, and he doesn't check this ML or >> > doesn't have time. >> > >> > I have access to the VM: it was given for projects-new. >> > Technically, I can change reporter too, but since we're starting from an >> > unexpected status (no svn checkout, files on the VM that are not part of >> > svn), >> If you can create a copy of the files on the VM I could ensure any >> local changes are reflected in SVN. > dump available in people.apache.org:/home/hboutemy/reporter.apache.org.tgz > >> It would help also to have details of the crontab entries. > # m h dom mon dow command > 00 00 * * * cd /var/www/projects.apache.org/scripts/cronjobs && python3.4 > podlings.py > 00 00 * * * cd /var/www/projects.apache.org/scripts/cronjobs && python3.4 > parsecommitters.py > 00 00 * * * cd /var/www/projects.apache.org/scripts/cronjobs && python3.4 > parsechairs.py > 00 00 * * * cd /var/www/projects.apache.org/scripts/cronjobs && python3.4 > countaccounts.py > 00 00 * * * cd /var/www/projects.apache.org/scripts/cronjobs && python3.4 > parsereleases.py > 00 4,12,20 * * * cd /var/www/reporter.apache.org/data && python3.4 > parsepmcs.py > 00 01 * * * cd /var/www/reporter.apache.org/ && python mailglomper.py > 00 09 * * * cd /var/www/reporter.apache.org/ && python readjira.py > 00 12 * * * curl "(removed)" > > /var/www/reporter.apache.org/data/mailinglists.json > > > > once content is checked against waht is in svn, we could probably copy and run > pubsubber.py from projects.a.o so svn updates are propagated to the vm Thanks a lot. I have now been given access as well, once I set up OPIE. I hope to find some time soon to synch. the on disk changes. Then we can look at improvements. > Regards, > > Hervé > >> >> > I didn't want to change the VM content without asking before. >> > >> > >> > At the moment, I want to finish projects new switch: then I'll probably >> > have more time to help on reporter. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Hervé >> > >> > Le mardi 30 juin 2015 01:20:46 sebb a écrit : >> >> Reporter.apache.org is showing misleading PMC membership data. >> >> >> >> As this is used in board reports, it really ought to be fixed ASAP. >> >> >> >> However the fixes I made to SVN have not been applied, and there is no >> >> documentation I could find on how the host has been set up - nor how >> >> the faulty data is generated. >> >> >> >> Who is responsible for maintaining the host and updating the software on >> >> it? >
