Re: Subcribtion

[Lefty Leverenz]

If you're trying to subscribe to Hive's developer mailing list, send a
message to dev-subscr...@hive.apache.org as described here:  Mailing Lists
.

-- Lefty

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 11:40 AM, marmar bossoni 
wrote:

>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5

Subcribtion

[marmar bossoni]

Sent from my iPhone 5

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Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

[jan i]

On Sunday, July 5, 2015, Pierre Smits  wrote:

> Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to the
> official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the bylaws
> is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his assumption? Or
> does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?


I did not mean that a oodling should create its own bylaws, but simply use
default and follow the ASF bylaws. Bylaws in projects should be (and are)
an exception.

rgds
jan i

>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM *
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits  > wrote:
>
> > Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a
> > part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM *
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > ross.gard...@microsoft.com > wrote:
> >
> >> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
> >>
> >> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> 
> >> From: Pierre Smits
> >> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM
> >> To: dev@community.apache.org  dev@community.apache.org >
> >> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> >> of Better specifying)
> >>
> >> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
> >> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
> >> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
> >> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
> >> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
> >> condition is met.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Pierre Smits
> >>
> >> *ORRTIZ.COM *
> >> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> Services and Retail & Trade
> >> http://www.orrtiz.com
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> ross.gard...@microsoft.com > wrote:
> >>
> >> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
> >> Apache
> >> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
> >> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> > 
> >> > From: Pierre Smits
> >> > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:16 PM
> >> > To: dev@community.apache.org  dev@community.apache.org >
> >> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of
> >> > Better specifying)
> >> >
> >> > Off list?
> >> >
> >> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
> >> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
> >> >
> >> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
> >> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over
> >> Code
> >> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
> >> >
> >> > Best regards,
> >> >
> >> > Pierre
> >> >
> >> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> > ross.gard...@microsoft.com 
> >> >  ');>> het
> >> volgende
> >> > geschreven:
> >> >
> >> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was
> >> not
> >> > > kind here.
> >> > >
> >> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> >> > >
> >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing
> paperwork
> >> (or
> >> > > the electronic equivalent).
> >> > >
> >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> > > 
> >> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) >
> >> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM
> >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org  dev@community.apache.org >
> >> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> >> (spin-off
> >> > > of Better specifying)
> >> > >
> >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport
> >> (our
> >> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> >> > situations
> >> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
> >> default
> >> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to
> write
> >> > code
> >> > > instead.
> >> > >
> >> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit
> >> of
> >> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC
> >> (and
> >> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> >> > >
> >> > > It's always possible t

RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

[Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)]

I believe the point is that since we are about consensus it can (and in mt 
opinion should) be argued that rules are usually not necessary - respectful 
human interaction shouldn't require rules. Occasionally things break down, in 
such situations rules for conflict resolution become important, hence the 
defaults apply.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Pierre Smits
Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 9:30 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of 
Better specifying)

As it has been established in the "Veto! Veto?" thread that with procedural
issues a bit more is required than the generic statements in the Code of
Conduct and other pages describing the Apache Way.
Especially if a project wants to deviate from the general rule of a simple
majority voting for specific aspects  - think off changing the direction or
goal of the project, or e.g. every registered contributor (iCLA filed) has
a vote with respect of onboarding new PMC Members - this must be
incorporated in the bylaws of a project.

And these deviation must be checked against what the ASF states as its core
values.

That individuals regard bylaws as evil, doesn't make it less necessary.
Those who are at the good end of the stick never find such a necessity.
Bylaws exist to decribe the elements of due process.

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM *
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 4:47 AM, Roman Shaposhnik 
wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Benson Margulies 
> wrote:
> > In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of
> > trouble -- if you have enough conflict to feel the need to write down
> > the rules, you might do better working out the reason for the conflict
> > than writing down the rules.
>
> Just as Benson I'm writing this as somebody who mentored a whole
> bunch of podlings: early per-project bylawas are a sure sign of trouble
> in my book. Its the same issue as the community that runs a vote for
> every little thing imaginable.
>
> Both tend to create minorities and really get in the way of true consensus
> long term.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>

Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)

[Niclas Hedhman]

Since Apache Zest (where I am the PMC Chair) was mentioned about called out
by the Board to create by-laws, I got curious to understand where that came
from, since I couldn't recall such order.

In reality, I wrote (copied) it myself in the Board Resolution to create
the project in the first place;


RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Zest Project be and hereby
   is tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to
   encourage open development and increased participation in the
   Apache Zest Project.


My guess is that this is a standard text from way back in time. Last time I
was involved in establishing a new project (Avalon) before Incubator, we
had a pointer to the Jakarta by-laws and I think that was perpetuated to a
point where it become the default position, until Jakarta is retired and
the origin of the "default" is gone.

Pierre may have a point in that the Board Resolution text could be
formulated differently to reflect this "default" and "lazy" position.

//Niclas
On Jul 4, 2015 18:35, "Pierre Smits"  wrote:

> >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing
> >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their
> >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> incorporate
> >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> >>
> > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure
> that
> > exactly this happened.
>
> Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for this
> year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing details
> could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at the
> board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings graduating
> to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or not.
>
> This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of the
> ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that IPMC
> members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> consider it optional.
>
> What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May is
> that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now those
> projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora, Apache
> Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> bylaws at all by the board.
>
> It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led to
> various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it harder to
> tell a unified story to the outside world...
> The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under the
> umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> few
> The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning defining
> the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>
> And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board keep
> track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a project's
> bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM *
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacre...@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs of
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> >  wrote:
> > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct which
> > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the
> > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > >
> > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > participates in the Apache community formally