Re: Want to Contribute
Hi Shayak Am 12/6/2016 um 8:22 AM schrieb Shayak Sadhu: Hello, I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. Nice, maybe you can tell us a bit more about your skills and your interest. It's easier to find a project Regards, Raphael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Want to Contribute
Hi Shayak, Please read our "Get Involved" section on our website. https://www.apache.org/foundation/getinvolved.html Another starting point is the "Help wanted" section. https://helpwanted.apache.org/ Best Regards Johannes # web: http://www.jgeppert.com twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep 2016-12-06 8:22 GMT+01:00 Shayak Sadhu : > Hello, > I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. > > Regards, > Shayak Sadhu >
Want to Contribute
Hello, I want to contribute to any project for Apache Foundation. Regards, Shayak Sadhu
Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric
I would like to help out with the task listed at https://helpwanted.apache.org/task.html?3c264f0f Ted Liu
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
I think I agree with both of you... On 12/05/2016 09:41 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: I have seen way too many metrics being misused to justify the wrong actions ...measuring the wrong thing at the wrong time or in the wrong way can be *extremely* harmful, yes... On 12/05/2016 01:07 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote: - Do we spend any ASF resources on this (I'm thinking money/paid time here)? - Do we enter into any form of legally binding contract with GSoC? If the answer to both are 'no', then I'll certainly not stand in the way of people wanting to do this - but if even one of them is 'yes', then we (the PMC at the very least) owe it to the foundation (and ourselves) to justify this on a recurring basis. ...but it is still important to justify why the ASF is doing something, especially if contracts are on the line. What about a softer metric to start with: "What percentage of past and current Apache GSoC mentors feel like their involvement has been beneficial, either for their associated Apache projects or for the greater open source community?" Both high and low percentages here are, IMO, instructive and useful in their own right. A middle-of-the-road answer means we'd have to dig into the "why do you feel that way?" question more to reach any conclusions, but again, that's still useful. (Compare, for example, with the metric "What % of code developed by GSoC students actually becomes a part of the project codebase at the end of the project?" In this case, an extremely high percentage could mean that GSoC is "successful", or it could mean that GSoC code gets into codebases regardless of its quality, or... Likewise, an extremely low percentage could mean that GSoC is "unsuccessful", or it could mean that GSoC is being used for more experimental efforts that are providing value to projects in some other way, or...) --Jacob - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
So ... stepping back a bit here. Are you saying that even attempting to measure outcomes is harmful, because we might draw the wrong conclusions? This is a completely new notion to me. You say: "I am reluctant to simply collect some data because I am missing a clear question what we are trying to answer and how the data you want to collect is actually answering that question." I do have a clear question. My question is whether participating in the GSoC contributes to our goal of Community Development. Does it develop our community in any measurable way? I assume, at this point, that it does, or we wouldn't keep doing it. In what way has it had measurable impact on our community? Things that we can clearly measure is adding participants in our project communities, and artifacts added to our projects' revision control repositories. Measuring other things is more difficult, and can be taken as a later task. Easy things first. The larger question of how and what we measure in the Community Development PMC as a whole hinges on this, too. I'm curious if you're resistant to that, too? --Rich On 12/05/2016 04:00 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > On 05.12.16 17:54, Rich Bowen wrote: >> >> >> On 12/05/2016 07:41 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going > forward? >>> Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? >>> >>> GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small >>> amount for every accepted >>> student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as >>> we have volunteers willing >>> to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those >>> volunteers are seeing value in >>> it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? >> >> Or, perhaps, let me give a different answer. >> >> I participated in GSoC as a mentor for $WorkProject. While it didn't >> "cost" me anything in dollars, it cost me probably 200 hours of my time. >> I know that other projects at work put more time in, and some less. >> >> This is an enormous cost to me, as an employee. So it behooves me to >> measure the benefit to the project. A student received payment to write >> code that was discarded. And I (and several of my colleagues) spent a >> huge amount of time, which I could have spent on other things, mentoring >> that student. Benefit to project, pretty heavily negative. > > In that case you should have failed the student pretty early as I tell > mentors every year and as > documented in the mentor guide. > >> >> So, now, here we are at the ASF, doing GSoC with our projects, and >> promoting it to them as a benefit. Does it actually benefit them, or is >> it merely siphoning off time that could be spent on other things. > > If a mentor feels it is the latter, they should immediately fail the student. > >> >> To folks that say we can't measure that, I strongly disagree. There are >> two measures that are obvious and easy. >> >> 1) What % of GSoC student are still active on the project 6 months, 12 >> months, 18 months after the project. (We can debate the definition of >> "active" all you like. > > This implies that the program is only successful if a certain number of > students sticks around. And > this is exactly what I'm arguing against. IMO the program is successful as > soon as a student has > some exposure to one of our communities. > >> >> 2) What % of code developed by GSoC students actually becomes a part of >> the project codebase at the end of the project? > > This has the same problems as trying to measure productivity from code. What > is the percentage > telling us about the question we want to answer? Also see above: If the code > cannot be part of the > project codebase the student should be failed. > >> >> I would maintain that #1 is part of our charter as ComDev, and #2 is >> part of what projects should be made aware of before they sign on. >> >> Again, I'm really not asking for a lot of data here. But I do think that >> it's part of a responsible accounting for participating in GSoC. If, for >> example, it is actually hindering projects, don't we want to know that. >> >> I did *not* participate in GSoC again, on $WorkProject, because it >> clearly hindered my project. >> >> > > I am reluctant to simply collect some data because I am missing a clear > question what we are trying > to answer and how the data you want to collect is actually answering that > question. > > Cheers, > > Uli > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 05.12.16 17:54, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > On 12/05/2016 07:41 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: >>> Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going forward? >> Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? >> >> GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small >> amount for every accepted >> student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as we >> have volunteers willing >> to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those >> volunteers are seeing value in >> it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? > > Or, perhaps, let me give a different answer. > > I participated in GSoC as a mentor for $WorkProject. While it didn't > "cost" me anything in dollars, it cost me probably 200 hours of my time. > I know that other projects at work put more time in, and some less. > > This is an enormous cost to me, as an employee. So it behooves me to > measure the benefit to the project. A student received payment to write > code that was discarded. And I (and several of my colleagues) spent a > huge amount of time, which I could have spent on other things, mentoring > that student. Benefit to project, pretty heavily negative. In that case you should have failed the student pretty early as I tell mentors every year and as documented in the mentor guide. > > So, now, here we are at the ASF, doing GSoC with our projects, and > promoting it to them as a benefit. Does it actually benefit them, or is > it merely siphoning off time that could be spent on other things. If a mentor feels it is the latter, they should immediately fail the student. > > To folks that say we can't measure that, I strongly disagree. There are > two measures that are obvious and easy. > > 1) What % of GSoC student are still active on the project 6 months, 12 > months, 18 months after the project. (We can debate the definition of > "active" all you like. This implies that the program is only successful if a certain number of students sticks around. And this is exactly what I'm arguing against. IMO the program is successful as soon as a student has some exposure to one of our communities. > > 2) What % of code developed by GSoC students actually becomes a part of > the project codebase at the end of the project? This has the same problems as trying to measure productivity from code. What is the percentage telling us about the question we want to answer? Also see above: If the code cannot be part of the project codebase the student should be failed. > > I would maintain that #1 is part of our charter as ComDev, and #2 is > part of what projects should be made aware of before they sign on. > > Again, I'm really not asking for a lot of data here. But I do think that > it's part of a responsible accounting for participating in GSoC. If, for > example, it is actually hindering projects, don't we want to know that. > > I did *not* participate in GSoC again, on $WorkProject, because it > clearly hindered my project. > > I am reluctant to simply collect some data because I am missing a clear question what we are trying to answer and how the data you want to collect is actually answering that question. Cheers, Uli - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 09:41 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > On 05.12.16 17:45, Rich Bowen wrote: >> >> >> On 12/05/2016 07:41 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going > forward? >>> Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? >>> >>> GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small >>> amount for every accepted >>> student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as >>> we have volunteers willing >>> to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those >>> volunteers are seeing value in >>> it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? >> >> Because part of Community Development is measuring what you do, so that >> you know if it's effective. This isn't a big request. I'm perplexed at >> your resistance to it. >> > > I have seen way too many metrics being misused to justify the wrong actions > because metrics are > extremely poor when it comes to more complex questions such as what we are > currently trying to > answer. IMO the only viable approach would be what you call anecdotal but > which is in social > scienses known as qualitative research which provides extremely deep insights > but is also extremely > hard (speak effort) to get right. I could argue the opposite, but trading anecdotes about metrics isn't gonna help much when it's missing the comdev context. > > How would you measure the impact on communities by students asking questions > regarding a GSoC > proposal but not being accepted? But using the knowledge they gained to > promote the project at > $dayjob later in their career, simply because they once had a short > touchpoint. What does it say > about a community if somebody becomes a committer and sticks with the project > after GSoC? Is one > more important than the other long-term? By which factor? Those are both excellent data points that would show the value of GSoC to the ASF. Either would be awesome if we collected them, as they would show, to both us and others, that this has a benefit to the communities at the ASF. I am confident we could put together a document on what we could try to measure (I say _try_ here, as we have to start somewhere and then see what that brings) > > And I'd again argue that we don't have to care too much how effective > something like GSoC is as long > as people are having fun mentoring students. Your experience might not have > been fun but then again > we are telling mentors to fail students early on when they don't think that > anything useful will > come out of it. Let me ask two questions here: - Do we spend any ASF resources on this (I'm thinking money/paid time here)? - Do we enter into any form of legally binding contract with GSoC? If the answer to both are 'no', then I'll certainly not stand in the way of people wanting to do this - but if even one of them is 'yes', then we (the PMC at the very least) owe it to the foundation (and ourselves) to justify this on a recurring basis. And one way to justify it is to have something that shows that it's actually providing something useful towards the mission of this committee. With regards, Daniel. > > Cheers, > > Uli > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 05.12.16 17:45, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > On 12/05/2016 07:41 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: >>> Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going forward? >> Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? >> >> GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small >> amount for every accepted >> student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as we >> have volunteers willing >> to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those >> volunteers are seeing value in >> it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? > > Because part of Community Development is measuring what you do, so that > you know if it's effective. This isn't a big request. I'm perplexed at > your resistance to it. > I have seen way too many metrics being misused to justify the wrong actions because metrics are extremely poor when it comes to more complex questions such as what we are currently trying to answer. IMO the only viable approach would be what you call anecdotal but which is in social scienses known as qualitative research which provides extremely deep insights but is also extremely hard (speak effort) to get right. How would you measure the impact on communities by students asking questions regarding a GSoC proposal but not being accepted? But using the knowledge they gained to promote the project at $dayjob later in their career, simply because they once had a short touchpoint. What does it say about a community if somebody becomes a committer and sticks with the project after GSoC? Is one more important than the other long-term? By which factor? And I'd again argue that we don't have to care too much how effective something like GSoC is as long as people are having fun mentoring students. Your experience might not have been fun but then again we are telling mentors to fail students early on when they don't think that anything useful will come out of it. Cheers, Uli - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: What's the plan? What are we here for?
Hi at all I'm finaly here too. I think, moast of you know me ;-) But the way to this list wasn't so easy. I'm honest, i diden't know about comdev util Roman point me to the ML. Then I searched for the subscribe link, and faild. Well I know how to compose the subscribe adress for the ML, but what does a newbie. So it would be good, to have that link on a prominent place on the comdev site. Befor we start to get other in to the boat, we should look around and see, wich type of boat we have. What's the magic of Apache, why we particip, what's the spirit. It's important for Newbie that they know what they can expect. Maybe we can start with this work. Regards, Raphael Am 12/5/2016 um 6:54 PM schrieb Rich Bowen: As has been discussed elsewhere, we don't have a clear idea of what we're here for. I believe we need to fix that. Why This Matters 1) So that we know how to ask for help This matters because people *flock* to us saying "I want to help", and in pretty much every case our response is "Great! Help! We love you!" This is great, but utterly unhelpful. Once we have a clear idea of what goals we are working towards, we will have a better idea of how to tell people to help us. When people come to volunteer to help, we need to know what to tell them that they can do, and those things need to come out of an understanding of what we're trying to accomplish. At the moment, we're doing a number of things. Most of them, we have no idea whether they help. I assert that this is primarily because "help" is undefined. Help with *what*? 2) So that we know whether we're doing it Once we define what it is that we are trying to accomplish, we will be better able to measure the things that we are doing, to determine in some objective way whether they are moving us towards those goals. I realize that "community development" is an endless road. But we should at least know which direction we're walking on that road. 3) Because we owe the board a report every quarter We're supposed to report to the board every quarter telling them how we are doing on achieving the goals that they created us to pursue. Except that we don't know what those goals are. So, we engage in various efforts which may or may not do anything. Some, like GSoC, are noble, and clearly benefit one audience (the students that participate), and *might* benefit projects. Sounds like it does, based on the most recent responses on $otherthread. Awesome. But do they advance "community development". Hard to say before we define that. So, What's The Plan As a full-time community manager, I have a definition of community development that appears on my annual performance review. I think it's fine for us, as a PMC in the most important open source organization on the planet, to have a similar level of rigor. Here's some of the things that fall under this header, and which I believe should be part of our definition as the ComDev PMC - things that we should work towards, and measure every effort against. * Increase community diversity. Identify projects that are monocultures (or near to them) and help them actively pursue broader community diversity. * Develop tools (documentation, training materials, and software tools) that projects can use to promote themselves and attract new participants. (Participants is a very broad term here, and does not refer only to code jockeys.) * Educate projects on the Apache Way, so that they can more richly experience the organization that they have attached themselves to. Identify projects that appear to be operating outside of the Apache Way, and gently, kindly, lead them back to the light. * Strengthen the bonds between projects and the larger Foundation. Defining this is a whole other thread, but means several things to me. Identify projects that are satellites and build ties back to the "family", in terms of participating in events, participating in governance discussions, having adequate membership representation on the PMC, and so on. * It's not about marketing, but we should be working very closely with marketing (press@) to promote what our projects are doing, and promote the idea of the ASF as a place where innovation happens, thus drawing in an engaged and excited participant community. * Internal promotion and cheerleading. Marketing is outward facing. Community development is somewhat inward facing. Many of our projects have no idea what other projects are doing, and don't care. Doing a degree of internal cheerleading, along with the education, is critical for building exprit de corps. Ok, I think there's more, but that alone should keep us busy for 5 or 10 years, and give these volunteers that keep showing up a clearer idea of what things they can work on. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
So, since this thread seems to have been perceived as "justify your existence, you layabouts!" let me rephrase, in the hopes of being a little more constructive. Apologies to any who took my question as an attack or accusation. It was neither. Do we have a comprehensive list of project/particpant going back to when we started doing GSoC? Or can someone point me to a location where such a list could be assembled after the fact? I propose the following concrete tasks/action items. Folks who don't see the value of doing them are encouraged not to do them. Folks who are looking for a way to contribute to the mission of Community Development can consider doing these tasks. 1) Assemble list of participant/project (privately, if there's a privacy concern here?) across the history of GSoC@Apache 2) Foreach $participant in list, is that participant still active in $project. (Subtask: State your definition of "active".) 3) Foreach $participant in list, determine whether the code that they wrote as the C part of GSoC was in fact accepted into $project. (Subtask: Is it still there?) 4) Present items 2 and 3 above as pretty graphs and charts, showing outcomes of each year, and so on. Include these graphs and charts on http://community.apache.org/gsoc and in whatever materials we send to projects when we encourage them to participate in GSoC. 5) Also offer these statistics back to Google. This is both to help them in their recruitment (assuming it's good news) and also as a proactive part of our own community development effort, to draw in the next generation of GSoC participants, and participants in general. On 11/16/2016 04:41 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: > It would be great to have some kind of statistics on how GSoC helps > projects longer term. Do students stick around? Does the code written > actually get incorporated into releases? Does it in fact contribute to > the mission of Community Development, or is it just a nice summer job > for these students? > > To be clear, I don't question the value of GSoC. What I'm curious about > is whether these people actually end up participating in our > communities. My experience with GSoC outside of Apache has been that the > students don't stick around, and so the enormous time and effort put > into GSoC, while it helps the skills and career of these students, > didn't help the project longer term. > -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 01:08 PM, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote: > On 5 December 2016 at 17:07, Jacob Champion wrote: >> Perhaps a bit off-topic for this thread in particular, but in all >> seriousness, I like this idea a lot. As you've noted, older projects and >> established developers don't always know which parts of their projects need >> "newbie improvement" -- after all, they've already figured it out for >> themselves. > > > Yeah, let's start that in another thread. > > > Here is a starting point: > > https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/tmp/random_projects.py > > stain@biggiebuntu:~/src/comdev/tmp$ ./random_projects.py 3 > karaf > activemq > oozie > > > (would this belong under comdev/tools? It seems to be meetup-centric) > It is at the moment, but it looks like this would go there too. 'tools', like 'libraries', 'programs' and 'stuff', are terrible directory names. Feel free to rename. (Yes, I think I created that directory.) -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 5 December 2016 at 17:07, Jacob Champion wrote: > Perhaps a bit off-topic for this thread in particular, but in all > seriousness, I like this idea a lot. As you've noted, older projects and > established developers don't always know which parts of their projects need > "newbie improvement" -- after all, they've already figured it out for > themselves. Yeah, let's start that in another thread. Here is a starting point: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/tmp/random_projects.py stain@biggiebuntu:~/src/comdev/tmp$ ./random_projects.py 3 karaf activemq oozie (would this belong under comdev/tools? It seems to be meetup-centric) -- Stian Soiland-Reyes http://orcid.org/-0001-9842-9718 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
What's the plan? What are we here for?
As has been discussed elsewhere, we don't have a clear idea of what we're here for. I believe we need to fix that. Why This Matters 1) So that we know how to ask for help This matters because people *flock* to us saying "I want to help", and in pretty much every case our response is "Great! Help! We love you!" This is great, but utterly unhelpful. Once we have a clear idea of what goals we are working towards, we will have a better idea of how to tell people to help us. When people come to volunteer to help, we need to know what to tell them that they can do, and those things need to come out of an understanding of what we're trying to accomplish. At the moment, we're doing a number of things. Most of them, we have no idea whether they help. I assert that this is primarily because "help" is undefined. Help with *what*? 2) So that we know whether we're doing it Once we define what it is that we are trying to accomplish, we will be better able to measure the things that we are doing, to determine in some objective way whether they are moving us towards those goals. I realize that "community development" is an endless road. But we should at least know which direction we're walking on that road. 3) Because we owe the board a report every quarter We're supposed to report to the board every quarter telling them how we are doing on achieving the goals that they created us to pursue. Except that we don't know what those goals are. So, we engage in various efforts which may or may not do anything. Some, like GSoC, are noble, and clearly benefit one audience (the students that participate), and *might* benefit projects. Sounds like it does, based on the most recent responses on $otherthread. Awesome. But do they advance "community development". Hard to say before we define that. So, What's The Plan As a full-time community manager, I have a definition of community development that appears on my annual performance review. I think it's fine for us, as a PMC in the most important open source organization on the planet, to have a similar level of rigor. Here's some of the things that fall under this header, and which I believe should be part of our definition as the ComDev PMC - things that we should work towards, and measure every effort against. * Increase community diversity. Identify projects that are monocultures (or near to them) and help them actively pursue broader community diversity. * Develop tools (documentation, training materials, and software tools) that projects can use to promote themselves and attract new participants. (Participants is a very broad term here, and does not refer only to code jockeys.) * Educate projects on the Apache Way, so that they can more richly experience the organization that they have attached themselves to. Identify projects that appear to be operating outside of the Apache Way, and gently, kindly, lead them back to the light. * Strengthen the bonds between projects and the larger Foundation. Defining this is a whole other thread, but means several things to me. Identify projects that are satellites and build ties back to the "family", in terms of participating in events, participating in governance discussions, having adequate membership representation on the PMC, and so on. * It's not about marketing, but we should be working very closely with marketing (press@) to promote what our projects are doing, and promote the idea of the ASF as a place where innovation happens, thus drawing in an engaged and excited participant community. * Internal promotion and cheerleading. Marketing is outward facing. Community development is somewhat inward facing. Many of our projects have no idea what other projects are doing, and don't care. Doing a degree of internal cheerleading, along with the education, is critical for building exprit de corps. Ok, I think there's more, but that alone should keep us busy for 5 or 10 years, and give these volunteers that keep showing up a clearer idea of what things they can work on. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 08:59 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > I disagree with the need for comdev to have a strategy. I'd like to respond to just this remark. ComDev has a goal. It is stated in the resolution that created the PMC. That goal is: to establish a Project Management Committee charged with coordinating community development efforts. Now, that's very poorly defined. But there are a number of us here who have had "community manager", "community liaison", and "community development lead" on our business cards at one point or another, and many more of us who have had this role with respect to a project, ASF or otherwise, over the years. I think that we can, and should, come up with a definition of what our goal is *as a PMC*. This is not to say that individuals can't do whatever the heck that they want, when they want, with whom they want. But as a PMC we have an obligation to the board and to the Foundation, to work towards the goal stated in our founding charter. And I think we have an obligation, also, to measure whether the things that we are doing are actually beneficial to that goal. We are a PMC, but we're not a traditional code-based PMC that is producing a product. And, thus, we have, for the most part, operated in a "let's do whatever" manner for most of our existence. Again, I'm not suggesting that we have a 10 year plan and fire people who don't work towards it. Although, a 10 year plan isn't such a terrible idea. But I do think that we, as a PMC, need a much clearer idea of our reason for existence, and that it needs to extend broader than just participating in GSoC. GSoC is wonderful but I would like to know whether it actually benefits "community development." I don't really understand why asking for a measure of that - ANY measure of that - is controversial. However, on my other points, look for a separate thread discussing that, momentarily. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
Yes, this would be hugely helpful. This page - http://community.apache.org/gsoc- should be inward-facing as well as outward facing. It should tell projects what they should expect to spend (time, effort, not necessarily money) and what the benefits are likely to be. If that's anecdotal, great. I believe that we (the ComDev PMC) should ask projects to write stories, and/or give us data, when we assist them with GSoC things. It's not an unreasonable request, and I think most of these projects would be willing to do this. I know that there have been blog posts in the past, but I don't know where they are. Linking them from this page would be awesome. But I do think that *numbers* communicate just as well (and better to some audiences) as stories. --Rich On 12/05/2016 12:10 PM, Suresh Marru wrote: > Hi Rich, > > Do you prefer to see cumulative statistics or PMC wise? With a small effort, > I can get detailed statistics from Apache Airavata. GSoC has been great for > the project and is one of the primary sources to induct fresh blood. We have > a decent retention rate, students have stayed around, earned committerships, > then became PMC Members, graduated and moved onto real jobs and still > continue to contribute (not always by code though). > > Engaging the students and mentoring them takes time, but we have spun it > around and used it as an opportunity to improve documentation and > contribution workflow. > > Hope this experience summary helps the discussion, will be happy to > elaborate and provide specific examples. > > Cheers, > Suresh > >> On Dec 5, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: >> >> Nobody is suggesting we have a 10 year plan with milestones and >> deliverables. I'm suggesting that when we do something under the heading >> of "community development" we have an obligation to make some attempt to >> measure it to determine if it actually moves us in that direction. >> >> Nobody is saying that we shouldn't participate in GSoC. I'm suggesting >> that before we promote GSoC to our projects, we should have some numbers >> (we've been doing this for years. surely there's some numbers that we >> could gather her?) that show projects that it's worth their time. Or >> warns them that it might not be. >> >> I don't care how much time individuals spend on GSoC. I care that we are >> telling projects that it's a worthwhile thing for them to spend *their* >> time on, and we don't appear to have actually taken the time to find out >> of that's true. >> >> >> On 12/05/2016 08:59 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote: ...The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any data or interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping towards that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the right thing to focus on >>> >>> I disagree with the need for comdev to have a strategy. >>> >>> At the technical level the ASF doesn't have a strategy, it just >>> provides space for its projects to exist and flourish. >>> >>> I think comdev can operate in the same way, as a loose group of >>> volunteers who collectively help develop communities, without >>> necessarily having a global comdev strategy to follow. >>> >>> Three examples: >>> >>> 1) A small group is running GSoC, which as Uli mentions doesn't cost >>> the ASF anything and actually brings some money in. GSoC clearly helps >>> our mission by helping a few community members join the ASF every >>> year. Exactly how many is not very important if volunteers agree to >>> run it. >>> >>> 2) Sharan and others have started work on diversity initiatives - >>> another subset of folks sharing common interests that match the >>> overall comdev mission. >>> >>> 3) I led a small group to develop our maturity model, I think it's a >>> very useful tool. I think we made just one change to it in 2016, it's >>> stable but useful and maintained. Others don't care about that or >>> didn't have time to help - no problem. >>> >>> You could argue that these things are disjoint but they are all small >>> steps that help towards our overall mission. We don't need much >>> coordination between them, IMO just making sure the comdev PMC agrees >>> with these things happening, and doing out best to unify their >>> communications channels to create synergies is good enough. >>> >>> Comdev can just provide a space for volunteers to help develop >>> communities, that's good enough for me. If others want more structured >>> activities feel free to do them but don't expect all PMC members to >>> necessarily join or to feel bad if they don't. >>> >>> -Bertrand >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen >> http://apachecon.com/ -
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
Why not Zoidberg? If someone wants to gather stats, that's great - if someone wants to gather stories etc, that is also great. One doesn't exclude the other, and considering we have nothing at the moment, anything is a step up. With regards, Daniel On 12/05/2016 06:18 PM, Alex Harui wrote: > IMO, rather than gathering statistics, it would be better to gather > stories, tips and advice. It doesn't seem to me that statistics would be > helpful, folks just need to know that it can have great benefits or great > cost and some ideas of the reasons why. Even if it hasn't been helpful in > the past for the vast majority of ASF projects, if it benefits some other > minority of projects, the important takeaway is that it can work for > certain reasons, not that it isn't a good idea for your project because it > didn't work for most other projects. Each project is different. > > My 2 cents, > -Alex > > On 12/5/16, 9:10 AM, "Suresh Marru" wrote: > >> Hi Rich, >> >> Do you prefer to see cumulative statistics or PMC wise? With a small >> effort, I can get detailed statistics from Apache Airavata. GSoC has been >> great for the project and is one of the primary sources to induct fresh >> blood. We have a decent retention rate, students have stayed around, >> earned committerships, then became PMC Members, graduated and moved onto >> real jobs and still continue to contribute (not always by code though). >> >> Engaging the students and mentoring them takes time, but we have spun it >> around and used it as an opportunity to improve documentation and >> contribution workflow. >> >> Hope this experience summary helps the discussion, will be happy to >> elaborate and provide specific examples. >> >> Cheers, >> Suresh >> >>> On Dec 5, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: >>> >>> Nobody is suggesting we have a 10 year plan with milestones and >>> deliverables. I'm suggesting that when we do something under the heading >>> of "community development" we have an obligation to make some attempt to >>> measure it to determine if it actually moves us in that direction. >>> >>> Nobody is saying that we shouldn't participate in GSoC. I'm suggesting >>> that before we promote GSoC to our projects, we should have some numbers >>> (we've been doing this for years. surely there's some numbers that we >>> could gather her?) that show projects that it's worth their time. Or >>> warns them that it might not be. >>> >>> I don't care how much time individuals spend on GSoC. I care that we are >>> telling projects that it's a worthwhile thing for them to spend *their* >>> time on, and we don't appear to have actually taken the time to find out >>> of that's true. >>> >>> >>> On 12/05/2016 08:59 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi, On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote: > ...The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any > data or > interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping > towards > that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the > right > thing to focus on I disagree with the need for comdev to have a strategy. At the technical level the ASF doesn't have a strategy, it just provides space for its projects to exist and flourish. I think comdev can operate in the same way, as a loose group of volunteers who collectively help develop communities, without necessarily having a global comdev strategy to follow. Three examples: 1) A small group is running GSoC, which as Uli mentions doesn't cost the ASF anything and actually brings some money in. GSoC clearly helps our mission by helping a few community members join the ASF every year. Exactly how many is not very important if volunteers agree to run it. 2) Sharan and others have started work on diversity initiatives - another subset of folks sharing common interests that match the overall comdev mission. 3) I led a small group to develop our maturity model, I think it's a very useful tool. I think we made just one change to it in 2016, it's stable but useful and maintained. Others don't care about that or didn't have time to help - no problem. You could argue that these things are disjoint but they are all small steps that help towards our overall mission. We don't need much coordination between them, IMO just making sure the comdev PMC agrees with these things happening, and doing out best to unify their communications channels to create synergies is good enough. Comdev can just provide a space for volunteers to help develop communities, that's good enough for me. If others want more structured activities feel free to do them but don't expect all PMC members to necessarily join or to feel bad if they don't. -Bertrand ---
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
IMO, rather than gathering statistics, it would be better to gather stories, tips and advice. It doesn't seem to me that statistics would be helpful, folks just need to know that it can have great benefits or great cost and some ideas of the reasons why. Even if it hasn't been helpful in the past for the vast majority of ASF projects, if it benefits some other minority of projects, the important takeaway is that it can work for certain reasons, not that it isn't a good idea for your project because it didn't work for most other projects. Each project is different. My 2 cents, -Alex On 12/5/16, 9:10 AM, "Suresh Marru" wrote: >Hi Rich, > >Do you prefer to see cumulative statistics or PMC wise? With a small >effort, I can get detailed statistics from Apache Airavata. GSoC has been >great for the project and is one of the primary sources to induct fresh >blood. We have a decent retention rate, students have stayed around, >earned committerships, then became PMC Members, graduated and moved onto >real jobs and still continue to contribute (not always by code though). > >Engaging the students and mentoring them takes time, but we have spun it >around and used it as an opportunity to improve documentation and >contribution workflow. > >Hope this experience summary helps the discussion, will be happy to >elaborate and provide specific examples. > >Cheers, >Suresh > >> On Dec 5, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: >> >> Nobody is suggesting we have a 10 year plan with milestones and >> deliverables. I'm suggesting that when we do something under the heading >> of "community development" we have an obligation to make some attempt to >> measure it to determine if it actually moves us in that direction. >> >> Nobody is saying that we shouldn't participate in GSoC. I'm suggesting >> that before we promote GSoC to our projects, we should have some numbers >> (we've been doing this for years. surely there's some numbers that we >> could gather her?) that show projects that it's worth their time. Or >> warns them that it might not be. >> >> I don't care how much time individuals spend on GSoC. I care that we are >> telling projects that it's a worthwhile thing for them to spend *their* >> time on, and we don't appear to have actually taken the time to find out >> of that's true. >> >> >> On 12/05/2016 08:59 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Daniel Gruno >>>wrote: ...The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any data or interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping towards that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the right thing to focus on >>> >>> I disagree with the need for comdev to have a strategy. >>> >>> At the technical level the ASF doesn't have a strategy, it just >>> provides space for its projects to exist and flourish. >>> >>> I think comdev can operate in the same way, as a loose group of >>> volunteers who collectively help develop communities, without >>> necessarily having a global comdev strategy to follow. >>> >>> Three examples: >>> >>> 1) A small group is running GSoC, which as Uli mentions doesn't cost >>> the ASF anything and actually brings some money in. GSoC clearly helps >>> our mission by helping a few community members join the ASF every >>> year. Exactly how many is not very important if volunteers agree to >>> run it. >>> >>> 2) Sharan and others have started work on diversity initiatives - >>> another subset of folks sharing common interests that match the >>> overall comdev mission. >>> >>> 3) I led a small group to develop our maturity model, I think it's a >>> very useful tool. I think we made just one change to it in 2016, it's >>> stable but useful and maintained. Others don't care about that or >>> didn't have time to help - no problem. >>> >>> You could argue that these things are disjoint but they are all small >>> steps that help towards our overall mission. We don't need much >>> coordination between them, IMO just making sure the comdev PMC agrees >>> with these things happening, and doing out best to unify their >>> communications channels to create synergies is good enough. >>> >>> Comdev can just provide a space for volunteers to help develop >>> communities, that's good enough for me. If others want more structured >>> activities feel free to do them but don't expect all PMC members to >>> necessarily join or to feel bad if they don't. >>> >>> -Bertrand >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen >> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon >> > > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >For additiona
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 08:15 AM, Stian Soiland-Reyes wrote: Perhaps ComDev can act like a prpject visitor. (Not auditor or inspector!) "No one expects the ComDev Inquisition!!" We can make a wiki page with a randomised list of all ASF projects, a quick checklist (smaller than maturity model) and just go through them one by one and raise issues/pull requests for any small community encouragement issues we find. Is that too intrusive? Perhaps a bit off-topic for this thread in particular, but in all seriousness, I like this idea a lot. As you've noted, older projects and established developers don't always know which parts of their projects need "newbie improvement" -- after all, they've already figured it out for themselves. --Jacob - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
Hi Rich, Do you prefer to see cumulative statistics or PMC wise? With a small effort, I can get detailed statistics from Apache Airavata. GSoC has been great for the project and is one of the primary sources to induct fresh blood. We have a decent retention rate, students have stayed around, earned committerships, then became PMC Members, graduated and moved onto real jobs and still continue to contribute (not always by code though). Engaging the students and mentoring them takes time, but we have spun it around and used it as an opportunity to improve documentation and contribution workflow. Hope this experience summary helps the discussion, will be happy to elaborate and provide specific examples. Cheers, Suresh > On Dec 5, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > Nobody is suggesting we have a 10 year plan with milestones and > deliverables. I'm suggesting that when we do something under the heading > of "community development" we have an obligation to make some attempt to > measure it to determine if it actually moves us in that direction. > > Nobody is saying that we shouldn't participate in GSoC. I'm suggesting > that before we promote GSoC to our projects, we should have some numbers > (we've been doing this for years. surely there's some numbers that we > could gather her?) that show projects that it's worth their time. Or > warns them that it might not be. > > I don't care how much time individuals spend on GSoC. I care that we are > telling projects that it's a worthwhile thing for them to spend *their* > time on, and we don't appear to have actually taken the time to find out > of that's true. > > > On 12/05/2016 08:59 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote: >>> ...The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any data or >>> interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping towards >>> that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the right >>> thing to focus on >> >> I disagree with the need for comdev to have a strategy. >> >> At the technical level the ASF doesn't have a strategy, it just >> provides space for its projects to exist and flourish. >> >> I think comdev can operate in the same way, as a loose group of >> volunteers who collectively help develop communities, without >> necessarily having a global comdev strategy to follow. >> >> Three examples: >> >> 1) A small group is running GSoC, which as Uli mentions doesn't cost >> the ASF anything and actually brings some money in. GSoC clearly helps >> our mission by helping a few community members join the ASF every >> year. Exactly how many is not very important if volunteers agree to >> run it. >> >> 2) Sharan and others have started work on diversity initiatives - >> another subset of folks sharing common interests that match the >> overall comdev mission. >> >> 3) I led a small group to develop our maturity model, I think it's a >> very useful tool. I think we made just one change to it in 2016, it's >> stable but useful and maintained. Others don't care about that or >> didn't have time to help - no problem. >> >> You could argue that these things are disjoint but they are all small >> steps that help towards our overall mission. We don't need much >> coordination between them, IMO just making sure the comdev PMC agrees >> with these things happening, and doing out best to unify their >> communications channels to create synergies is good enough. >> >> Comdev can just provide a space for volunteers to help develop >> communities, that's good enough for me. If others want more structured >> activities feel free to do them but don't expect all PMC members to >> necessarily join or to feel bad if they don't. >> >> -Bertrand >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >> > > > -- > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen > http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
Nobody is suggesting we have a 10 year plan with milestones and deliverables. I'm suggesting that when we do something under the heading of "community development" we have an obligation to make some attempt to measure it to determine if it actually moves us in that direction. Nobody is saying that we shouldn't participate in GSoC. I'm suggesting that before we promote GSoC to our projects, we should have some numbers (we've been doing this for years. surely there's some numbers that we could gather her?) that show projects that it's worth their time. Or warns them that it might not be. I don't care how much time individuals spend on GSoC. I care that we are telling projects that it's a worthwhile thing for them to spend *their* time on, and we don't appear to have actually taken the time to find out of that's true. On 12/05/2016 08:59 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote: >> ...The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any data or >> interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping towards >> that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the right >> thing to focus on > > I disagree with the need for comdev to have a strategy. > > At the technical level the ASF doesn't have a strategy, it just > provides space for its projects to exist and flourish. > > I think comdev can operate in the same way, as a loose group of > volunteers who collectively help develop communities, without > necessarily having a global comdev strategy to follow. > > Three examples: > > 1) A small group is running GSoC, which as Uli mentions doesn't cost > the ASF anything and actually brings some money in. GSoC clearly helps > our mission by helping a few community members join the ASF every > year. Exactly how many is not very important if volunteers agree to > run it. > > 2) Sharan and others have started work on diversity initiatives - > another subset of folks sharing common interests that match the > overall comdev mission. > > 3) I led a small group to develop our maturity model, I think it's a > very useful tool. I think we made just one change to it in 2016, it's > stable but useful and maintained. Others don't care about that or > didn't have time to help - no problem. > > You could argue that these things are disjoint but they are all small > steps that help towards our overall mission. We don't need much > coordination between them, IMO just making sure the comdev PMC agrees > with these things happening, and doing out best to unify their > communications channels to create synergies is good enough. > > Comdev can just provide a space for volunteers to help develop > communities, that's good enough for me. If others want more structured > activities feel free to do them but don't expect all PMC members to > necessarily join or to feel bad if they don't. > > -Bertrand > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 07:41 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: >> Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going >> > forward? > Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? > > GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small > amount for every accepted > student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as we > have volunteers willing > to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those > volunteers are seeing value in > it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? Or, perhaps, let me give a different answer. I participated in GSoC as a mentor for $WorkProject. While it didn't "cost" me anything in dollars, it cost me probably 200 hours of my time. I know that other projects at work put more time in, and some less. This is an enormous cost to me, as an employee. So it behooves me to measure the benefit to the project. A student received payment to write code that was discarded. And I (and several of my colleagues) spent a huge amount of time, which I could have spent on other things, mentoring that student. Benefit to project, pretty heavily negative. So, now, here we are at the ASF, doing GSoC with our projects, and promoting it to them as a benefit. Does it actually benefit them, or is it merely siphoning off time that could be spent on other things. To folks that say we can't measure that, I strongly disagree. There are two measures that are obvious and easy. 1) What % of GSoC student are still active on the project 6 months, 12 months, 18 months after the project. (We can debate the definition of "active" all you like. 2) What % of code developed by GSoC students actually becomes a part of the project codebase at the end of the project? I would maintain that #1 is part of our charter as ComDev, and #2 is part of what projects should be made aware of before they sign on. Again, I'm really not asking for a lot of data here. But I do think that it's part of a responsible accounting for participating in GSoC. If, for example, it is actually hindering projects, don't we want to know that. I did *not* participate in GSoC again, on $WorkProject, because it clearly hindered my project. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 07:37 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > What money are we putting into this? I have no idea. That would be part of the data that I, as a member, would really like to know. > > Cheers, > > Uli > > On 03.12.16 23:16, Rich Bowen wrote: >> So, this question was asked several weeks ago, and, so far, we have no >> statistics. I wonder if, now that there appears to be some interest >> around GSoC 2017 starting up, someone could look back at their notes and >> answer some of these questions. >> >> While it's cool that folks are spending time on GSoC, for the sake of >> GSoC, and of the students, it would also be awesome to know whether the >> time and money that the ASF puts into this is actually doing something >> towards the stated goal of Community Development. >> >> Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going >> forward? >> >> --Rich >> >> On 11/16/2016 05:18 AM, Nick Burch wrote: >>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, Rich Bowen wrote: It would be great to have some kind of statistics on how GSoC helps projects longer term. Do students stick around? Does the code written actually get incorporated into releases? Does it in fact contribute to the mission of Community Development, or is it just a nice summer job for these students? >>> >>> Do we have a list (maybe somewhere in the comdev private svn?) of >>> everyone who has taken part in GSoC? >>> >>> If so, it'd be fairly easy to annotate that with apache IDs, then see >>> who's now on PMCs or who's now a member. Producing sharable statistics >>> from that automatically is then easy. (I say this as someone who helped >>> update the similar Travel Assistance Committee / TAC ones on Monday!) >>> >>> Not sure if it's easy to find out the "last commit date" for people, to >>> check for the "still around" part (eg for people who got committership >>> during GSoc, maybe on a branch), but I know where infra are to ask... >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> PS FWIW, within Tika we've certainly had a few GSoC people stick around! >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >>> >> >> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 07:41 AM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: >> Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going >> > forward? > Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? > > GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small > amount for every accepted > student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as we > have volunteers willing > to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those > volunteers are seeing value in > it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? Because part of Community Development is measuring what you do, so that you know if it's effective. This isn't a big request. I'm perplexed at your resistance to it. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
Perhaps something for ComDev is to work on engagement with software developers who don't currently consider themselves part of any ASF community, but use our software without contributing (much) back. These are generally more experienced than GSOC students, and while they won't have as much continual time available, they could contribute in other ways. You may them moaning on StackOverflow or at big software conferences. ApacheCon is nice, but is often preaching to the converted (and their colleagues they managed to lure along :-). I would think that many times ASF comitters could be at a more specific conference or venue for their field, and could easily give an ASF/open source pep talk to people they meet or present to. Golden opportunity! Perhaps some Comdev PDFs of a generic flyer with "How does ASF work? Join us!" could be handy to print out, so they don't have to make up everything on the spot or beg here for trademark guidance to compose their own ASF promo material. Knowing myself and my organisation, we used ASF software for at least 10 years, developing our own open source software. It didn't occur to us to during that time that perhaps we could (should!) also help out on ASF software we relied on, like httpd, tomcat, commons, derby, Jena, etc. No-one told us so, no READMEs or announcements, no people or stands at big conferences. Now there is GitHub pull requests, which do significantly lower the barrier, but many ASF projects still don't say much (or at all) on their pages and READMEs that this is a welcome contribution path. Many ASF projects don't explain well enough for outsiders how development happens. Perhaps it looks as if we are all experts and you need to be specially invited. Perhaps people sign up to dev@ lists, but get scared by the open development discussions, thinking "Uh, I don't know enough about this, it's clearly not for me. And what is this VOTE thing?". We can't know, because those people are not around. The information is there, but it is often buried, not linked to from project home pages and email threads - "everybody knows". For instance I try to include statements like this in VOTE emails: > Anyone can participate in testing and voting, not just committers, please feel free to try out the release candidate and provide your votes. How to review a release candidate? https://s.apache.org/review-release ComDev could help with building a generic pages like "what is a release candidate and what do I do", "How are decisions made?". This then fits into the ComDev or ASF blog and could be used as a default link or template for projects to refer to when voting - it should be more observational than policy. Could it make sense for ComDev to (sensitively) contribute patches pr recommendations to ASF projects in this regard? It should not look like medling or patronising, just like a pull request with friendly suggestions. Often I find it is that incubator projects get it right (eventually), while older projects are comfortably established and are effectively outdated in respect to the the ComDev maturity model and ASF best practice. (E.g. link to older mbox mailing list archive, no link to Code of Conduct). Perhaps ComDev can act like a prpject visitor. (Not auditor or inspector!) We can make a wiki page with a randomised list of all ASF projects, a quick checklist (smaller than maturity model) and just go through them one by one and raise issues/pull requests for any small community encouragement issues we find. Is that too intrusive? On 5 Dec 2016 3:26 pm, "Daniel Gruno" wrote: > On 12/05/2016 03:46 PM, Shane Curcuru wrote: > > Ulrich Stärk wrote on 12/5/16 9:27 AM: > >> On 05.12.16 14:30, Daniel Gruno wrote: > >>> On 12/05/2016 01:41 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > > ...snip... > >>> But this goes beyond GSoC in my mind. We should be looking at ALL > ComDev > >>> projects and evaluate what we want to keep, what isn't working, and > what > >>> needs a do-over. The task of ComDev is to *develop communities*, it > >>> shouldn't just be a dumping ground for all things cross-project, > whether > >>> they work or not. That is at least my opinion. > >>> > >>> We try strategies, give them life, see if they work, and if not, we put > >>> them to sleep or fix them. > >> > >> Geez, we are not maximizing for efficiency here (and that coming from a > management consultant, how > >> ironic). > >> > >> Let me take GSoC as an example again. As long as we have volunteer > mentors from our communities that > >> want to mentor students working on their projects than we IMO don't > need any additional metric or a > >> certain level of usefulness to justify running the program. Our > communities think it is important - > >> otherwise they wouldn't invest the time -, so should we. > > ...snip... > > > > You both have excellent points. > > > > I believe GSoC is a very valuable program for the ASF and the projects > > that participate, and I really hope the volunteers stepping up to
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
I think GSOC is very valuable, both for the students and the ASF projects that participate. Even if a student does not hang around after GSOC (were they made committer?) it is still good for communities to get fresh drive and ideas, and ask questions which established committers might not have thought that newbies didn't know. GSOC projects are good ways to kick-start new prototypes and challenge the existing architecture. In a way GSOC also teaches/reminds projects how to make its code, documentation and community welcoming for newcomers, so that is why I think it is particularly good to encourage fresh incubator podlings to participate. This can't be easily measured in numbers. GSOC mentoring can draw significant project bandwidth, yes, but then projects and potential mentors can choose to participate or not per year. On 5 Dec 2016 2:46 pm, "Shane Curcuru" wrote: > Ulrich Stärk wrote on 12/5/16 9:27 AM: > > On 05.12.16 14:30, Daniel Gruno wrote: > >> On 12/05/2016 01:41 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > ...snip... > >> But this goes beyond GSoC in my mind. We should be looking at ALL ComDev > >> projects and evaluate what we want to keep, what isn't working, and what > >> needs a do-over. The task of ComDev is to *develop communities*, it > >> shouldn't just be a dumping ground for all things cross-project, whether > >> they work or not. That is at least my opinion. > >> > >> We try strategies, give them life, see if they work, and if not, we put > >> them to sleep or fix them. > > > > Geez, we are not maximizing for efficiency here (and that coming from a > management consultant, how > > ironic). > > > > Let me take GSoC as an example again. As long as we have volunteer > mentors from our communities that > > want to mentor students working on their projects than we IMO don't need > any additional metric or a > > certain level of usefulness to justify running the program. Our > communities think it is important - > > otherwise they wouldn't invest the time -, so should we. > ...snip... > > You both have excellent points. > > I believe GSoC is a very valuable program for the ASF and the projects > that participate, and I really hope the volunteers stepping up to > organize keep doing it. I'll try to remember to thank you more often! > > Separately, it's great when we can also improve things, or at least show > some sort of progress towards helping our project's communities grow. > Given the rest of the organization that GSoC brings, and the fact that > our LDAP and other records are getting pretty easy to script against, it > would be great if some volunteer wanted to track people who became > committers from GSoC to see their contributions in the future. > > But just because no-one has stepped up to do the metrics doesn't mean we > should stop GSoC. If people want to volunteer to do something that's > generally positive, great. Suggestions for improvements are good; > getting in the way to slow progress because some additional goal hasn't > yet attracted a volunteer to do it is not as good. > > - Shane > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 03:46 PM, Shane Curcuru wrote: > Ulrich Stärk wrote on 12/5/16 9:27 AM: >> On 05.12.16 14:30, Daniel Gruno wrote: >>> On 12/05/2016 01:41 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > ...snip... >>> But this goes beyond GSoC in my mind. We should be looking at ALL ComDev >>> projects and evaluate what we want to keep, what isn't working, and what >>> needs a do-over. The task of ComDev is to *develop communities*, it >>> shouldn't just be a dumping ground for all things cross-project, whether >>> they work or not. That is at least my opinion. >>> >>> We try strategies, give them life, see if they work, and if not, we put >>> them to sleep or fix them. >> >> Geez, we are not maximizing for efficiency here (and that coming from a >> management consultant, how >> ironic). >> >> Let me take GSoC as an example again. As long as we have volunteer mentors >> from our communities that >> want to mentor students working on their projects than we IMO don't need any >> additional metric or a >> certain level of usefulness to justify running the program. Our communities >> think it is important - >> otherwise they wouldn't invest the time -, so should we. > ...snip... > > You both have excellent points. > > I believe GSoC is a very valuable program for the ASF and the projects > that participate, and I really hope the volunteers stepping up to > organize keep doing it. I'll try to remember to thank you more often! > > Separately, it's great when we can also improve things, or at least show > some sort of progress towards helping our project's communities grow. > Given the rest of the organization that GSoC brings, and the fact that > our LDAP and other records are getting pretty easy to script against, it > would be great if some volunteer wanted to track people who became > committers from GSoC to see their contributions in the future. > > But just because no-one has stepped up to do the metrics doesn't mean we > should stop GSoC. If people want to volunteer to do something that's > generally positive, great. Suggestions for improvements are good; > getting in the way to slow progress because some additional goal hasn't > yet attracted a volunteer to do it is not as good. I don't think anyone has actively suggested we stop GSoC. But it would be good to see more cohesion in ComDev and some discussions on what we are doing, how it benefits our mission, and what the results are. Rich's original question was "does it benefit the ASF?". We don't seem to have bothered answering that question in a diligent matter over the past years, and I think we should do so. If GSoC is as valuable as the proponents say, then it should be easy to gather some more non-anecdotal information that says "yes, this has helped develop the community". I'd be super interested to learn what GSoC actually achieves, I have no idea if it's just a charitable coding-for-money scheme or if it actually helps grow our community in the long run. I also have no idea which aspects the projects find most useful, and I'd love to learn that. What I would be most interested in, however, is (as stated above) more cohesion in what ComDev does and how it is done. There should be at least some form of point of there being a PMC. With regards, Daniel. > > - Shane > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
Ulrich Stärk wrote on 12/5/16 9:27 AM: > On 05.12.16 14:30, Daniel Gruno wrote: >> On 12/05/2016 01:41 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: ...snip... >> But this goes beyond GSoC in my mind. We should be looking at ALL ComDev >> projects and evaluate what we want to keep, what isn't working, and what >> needs a do-over. The task of ComDev is to *develop communities*, it >> shouldn't just be a dumping ground for all things cross-project, whether >> they work or not. That is at least my opinion. >> >> We try strategies, give them life, see if they work, and if not, we put >> them to sleep or fix them. > > Geez, we are not maximizing for efficiency here (and that coming from a > management consultant, how > ironic). > > Let me take GSoC as an example again. As long as we have volunteer mentors > from our communities that > want to mentor students working on their projects than we IMO don't need any > additional metric or a > certain level of usefulness to justify running the program. Our communities > think it is important - > otherwise they wouldn't invest the time -, so should we. ...snip... You both have excellent points. I believe GSoC is a very valuable program for the ASF and the projects that participate, and I really hope the volunteers stepping up to organize keep doing it. I'll try to remember to thank you more often! Separately, it's great when we can also improve things, or at least show some sort of progress towards helping our project's communities grow. Given the rest of the organization that GSoC brings, and the fact that our LDAP and other records are getting pretty easy to script against, it would be great if some volunteer wanted to track people who became committers from GSoC to see their contributions in the future. But just because no-one has stepped up to do the metrics doesn't mean we should stop GSoC. If people want to volunteer to do something that's generally positive, great. Suggestions for improvements are good; getting in the way to slow progress because some additional goal hasn't yet attracted a volunteer to do it is not as good. - Shane - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 05.12.16 14:30, Daniel Gruno wrote: > On 12/05/2016 01:41 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: >> On 03.12.16 23:16, Rich Bowen wrote: >>> So, this question was asked several weeks ago, and, so far, we have no >>> statistics. I wonder if, now that there appears to be some interest >>> around GSoC 2017 starting up, someone could look back at their notes and >>> answer some of these questions. >>> >>> While it's cool that folks are spending time on GSoC, for the sake of >>> GSoC, and of the students, it would also be awesome to know whether the >>> time and money that the ASF puts into this is actually doing something >>> towards the stated goal of Community Development. >>> >>> Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going >>> forward? >> >> Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? >> >> GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small >> amount for every accepted >> student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as we >> have volunteers willing >> to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those >> volunteers are seeing value in >> it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? > > Let's flip that around: If the ASF doesn't benefit in any way from this, > why are we bothering with it? why is it the prominent (and in many cases > the _only_) thing in our board reports? I don't get this logic. Can you explain why the ASF isn't benefitting? Apparently our communities are, otherwise we wouldn't see mentors willing to mentor students, no? > > Going back a few reports (those that are public at this date), they all > seem to be either about starting, doing or concluding (which we have no > data on) GSoC and then perhaps a small bit of extra data on all the > rest. It is a VERY prominent thing, so why is that so? Because apart from GSoC we don't seem to do any other structured efforts to report on. If there has been something noteworthy, it was in the reports (e.g. helpwanted, diversity efforts, etc.). Sharan's diversity efforts are a the closest thing to a new structured effort. Her extensive report was included in our last board report. > > The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any data or > interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping towards > that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the right > thing to focus on. Again. I strongly believe that there is no suitable metric for answering these kind of questions except for indirectly through demand and I yet need to be convinced of the contrary. > > But this goes beyond GSoC in my mind. We should be looking at ALL ComDev > projects and evaluate what we want to keep, what isn't working, and what > needs a do-over. The task of ComDev is to *develop communities*, it > shouldn't just be a dumping ground for all things cross-project, whether > they work or not. That is at least my opinion. > > We try strategies, give them life, see if they work, and if not, we put > them to sleep or fix them. Geez, we are not maximizing for efficiency here (and that coming from a management consultant, how ironic). Let me take GSoC as an example again. As long as we have volunteer mentors from our communities that want to mentor students working on their projects than we IMO don't need any additional metric or a certain level of usefulness to justify running the program. Our communities think it is important - otherwise they wouldn't invest the time -, so should we. Thinking this further we have already won when a student applies. They have interacted with the community, used the code, read documentation, maybe even already fixed some bug along the way. IMO that is also an important part of the community building. If a student sticks around than that is simply the icing on the cake and no metric whatsoever for the success of the program. Cheers, Uli > > With regards, > Daniel. > >> >> Cheers, >> >> Uli >> >>> >>> --Rich >>> >>> On 11/16/2016 05:18 AM, Nick Burch wrote: On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, Rich Bowen wrote: > It would be great to have some kind of statistics on how GSoC helps > projects longer term. Do students stick around? Does the code written > actually get incorporated into releases? Does it in fact contribute to > the mission of Community Development, or is it just a nice summer job > for these students? Do we have a list (maybe somewhere in the comdev private svn?) of everyone who has taken part in GSoC? If so, it'd be fairly easy to annotate that with apache IDs, then see who's now on PMCs or who's now a member. Producing sharable statistics from that automatically is then easy. (I say this as someone who helped update the similar Travel Assistance Committee / TAC ones on Monday!) Not sure if it's easy to find out the "last commit date" for people, to check for the "still around" part (eg for peop
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 02:59 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote: >> ...The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any data or >> interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping towards >> that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the right >> thing to focus on > > I disagree with the need for comdev to have a strategy. > > At the technical level the ASF doesn't have a strategy, it just > provides space for its projects to exist and flourish. > > I think comdev can operate in the same way, as a loose group of > volunteers who collectively help develop communities, without > necessarily having a global comdev strategy to follow. I wasn't thinking a global strategy in the stringent "we must see a 5% growth!" sense. But we do have a mission at comdev, it's in the resolution to establish the committee; "helping people become involved with Apache projects.". If ComDev can't in any way account for whether its various projects have any effect, then why are we doing them? Having a loose management structure is fine, that's what the ASF is about, it's a very flat organisation. But there should at least be some form of communication/discussion going on about what we do and whether it had any effect towards our mission of helping people become involved in the ASF. If the mission is not considered to matter, then what is the purpose of ComDev as a PMC? Sometimes, it seems to me - and I'll admit I fell into that trap as well - that ComDev is just a place you put things when you can't find another place to put it, regardless of whether it helps our mission or not. If that's the case, then I think the overall mission statement of comdev should change to reflect that. > > Three examples: > > 1) A small group is running GSoC, which as Uli mentions doesn't cost > the ASF anything and actually brings some money in. GSoC clearly helps > our mission by helping a few community members join the ASF every > year. Exactly how many is not very important if volunteers agree to > run it. > > 2) Sharan and others have started work on diversity initiatives - > another subset of folks sharing common interests that match the > overall comdev mission. > > 3) I led a small group to develop our maturity model, I think it's a > very useful tool. I think we made just one change to it in 2016, it's > stable but useful and maintained. Others don't care about that or > didn't have time to help - no problem. > > You could argue that these things are disjoint but they are all small > steps that help towards our overall mission. We don't need much > coordination between them, IMO just making sure the comdev PMC agrees > with these things happening, and doing out best to unify their > communications channels to create synergies is good enough. > > Comdev can just provide a space for volunteers to help develop > communities, that's good enough for me. If others want more structured > activities feel free to do them but don't expect all PMC members to > necessarily join or to feel bad if they don't. > > -Bertrand > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
Hi, On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote: > ...The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any data or > interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping towards > that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the right > thing to focus on I disagree with the need for comdev to have a strategy. At the technical level the ASF doesn't have a strategy, it just provides space for its projects to exist and flourish. I think comdev can operate in the same way, as a loose group of volunteers who collectively help develop communities, without necessarily having a global comdev strategy to follow. Three examples: 1) A small group is running GSoC, which as Uli mentions doesn't cost the ASF anything and actually brings some money in. GSoC clearly helps our mission by helping a few community members join the ASF every year. Exactly how many is not very important if volunteers agree to run it. 2) Sharan and others have started work on diversity initiatives - another subset of folks sharing common interests that match the overall comdev mission. 3) I led a small group to develop our maturity model, I think it's a very useful tool. I think we made just one change to it in 2016, it's stable but useful and maintained. Others don't care about that or didn't have time to help - no problem. You could argue that these things are disjoint but they are all small steps that help towards our overall mission. We don't need much coordination between them, IMO just making sure the comdev PMC agrees with these things happening, and doing out best to unify their communications channels to create synergies is good enough. Comdev can just provide a space for volunteers to help develop communities, that's good enough for me. If others want more structured activities feel free to do them but don't expect all PMC members to necessarily join or to feel bad if they don't. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 12/05/2016 01:41 PM, Ulrich Stärk wrote: > On 03.12.16 23:16, Rich Bowen wrote: >> So, this question was asked several weeks ago, and, so far, we have no >> statistics. I wonder if, now that there appears to be some interest >> around GSoC 2017 starting up, someone could look back at their notes and >> answer some of these questions. >> >> While it's cool that folks are spending time on GSoC, for the sake of >> GSoC, and of the students, it would also be awesome to know whether the >> time and money that the ASF puts into this is actually doing something >> towards the stated goal of Community Development. >> >> Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going >> forward? > > Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? > > GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small > amount for every accepted > student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as we > have volunteers willing > to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those > volunteers are seeing value in > it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? Let's flip that around: If the ASF doesn't benefit in any way from this, why are we bothering with it? why is it the prominent (and in many cases the _only_) thing in our board reports? Going back a few reports (those that are public at this date), they all seem to be either about starting, doing or concluding (which we have no data on) GSoC and then perhaps a small bit of extra data on all the rest. It is a VERY prominent thing, so why is that so? The task of ComDev is developing community. If we don't have any data or interest in acquiring such to show that this is in fact helping towards that, then we should consider whether the current strategy is the right thing to focus on. But this goes beyond GSoC in my mind. We should be looking at ALL ComDev projects and evaluate what we want to keep, what isn't working, and what needs a do-over. The task of ComDev is to *develop communities*, it shouldn't just be a dumping ground for all things cross-project, whether they work or not. That is at least my opinion. We try strategies, give them life, see if they work, and if not, we put them to sleep or fix them. With regards, Daniel. > > Cheers, > > Uli > >> >> --Rich >> >> On 11/16/2016 05:18 AM, Nick Burch wrote: >>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, Rich Bowen wrote: It would be great to have some kind of statistics on how GSoC helps projects longer term. Do students stick around? Does the code written actually get incorporated into releases? Does it in fact contribute to the mission of Community Development, or is it just a nice summer job for these students? >>> >>> Do we have a list (maybe somewhere in the comdev private svn?) of >>> everyone who has taken part in GSoC? >>> >>> If so, it'd be fairly easy to annotate that with apache IDs, then see >>> who's now on PMCs or who's now a member. Producing sharable statistics >>> from that automatically is then easy. (I say this as someone who helped >>> update the similar Travel Assistance Committee / TAC ones on Monday!) >>> >>> Not sure if it's easy to find out the "last commit date" for people, to >>> check for the "still around" part (eg for people who got committership >>> during GSoc, maybe on a branch), but I know where infra are to ask... >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> PS FWIW, within Tika we've certainly had a few GSoC people stick around! >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >>> >> >> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
On 03.12.16 23:16, Rich Bowen wrote: > So, this question was asked several weeks ago, and, so far, we have no > statistics. I wonder if, now that there appears to be some interest > around GSoC 2017 starting up, someone could look back at their notes and > answer some of these questions. > > While it's cool that folks are spending time on GSoC, for the sake of > GSoC, and of the students, it would also be awesome to know whether the > time and money that the ASF puts into this is actually doing something > towards the stated goal of Community Development. > > Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going > forward? Let me play the devil's advocate here: What for? GSoC is completely free for the ASF (on the contrary, we even get a small amount for every accepted student that we can than put towards fulfilling our goals) and as long as we have volunteers willing to organize it and mentor students we can assume that at least those volunteers are seeing value in it. Why the stats other than for satisfying our curiosity? Cheers, Uli > > --Rich > > On 11/16/2016 05:18 AM, Nick Burch wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, Rich Bowen wrote: >>> It would be great to have some kind of statistics on how GSoC helps >>> projects longer term. Do students stick around? Does the code written >>> actually get incorporated into releases? Does it in fact contribute to >>> the mission of Community Development, or is it just a nice summer job >>> for these students? >> >> Do we have a list (maybe somewhere in the comdev private svn?) of >> everyone who has taken part in GSoC? >> >> If so, it'd be fairly easy to annotate that with apache IDs, then see >> who's now on PMCs or who's now a member. Producing sharable statistics >> from that automatically is then easy. (I say this as someone who helped >> update the similar Travel Assistance Committee / TAC ones on Monday!) >> >> Not sure if it's easy to find out the "last commit date" for people, to >> check for the "still around" part (eg for people who got committership >> during GSoc, maybe on a branch), but I know where infra are to ask... >> >> Nick >> >> PS FWIW, within Tika we've certainly had a few GSoC people stick around! >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Does GSoC help develop communities?
What money are we putting into this? Cheers, Uli On 03.12.16 23:16, Rich Bowen wrote: > So, this question was asked several weeks ago, and, so far, we have no > statistics. I wonder if, now that there appears to be some interest > around GSoC 2017 starting up, someone could look back at their notes and > answer some of these questions. > > While it's cool that folks are spending time on GSoC, for the sake of > GSoC, and of the students, it would also be awesome to know whether the > time and money that the ASF puts into this is actually doing something > towards the stated goal of Community Development. > > Or, at the very least, can we make a commitment to track this data going > forward? > > --Rich > > On 11/16/2016 05:18 AM, Nick Burch wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, Rich Bowen wrote: >>> It would be great to have some kind of statistics on how GSoC helps >>> projects longer term. Do students stick around? Does the code written >>> actually get incorporated into releases? Does it in fact contribute to >>> the mission of Community Development, or is it just a nice summer job >>> for these students? >> >> Do we have a list (maybe somewhere in the comdev private svn?) of >> everyone who has taken part in GSoC? >> >> If so, it'd be fairly easy to annotate that with apache IDs, then see >> who's now on PMCs or who's now a member. Producing sharable statistics >> from that automatically is then easy. (I say this as someone who helped >> update the similar Travel Assistance Committee / TAC ones on Monday!) >> >> Not sure if it's easy to find out the "last commit date" for people, to >> check for the "still around" part (eg for people who got committership >> during GSoc, maybe on a branch), but I know where infra are to ask... >> >> Nick >> >> PS FWIW, within Tika we've certainly had a few GSoC people stick around! >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Re-launching the ComDev Blog
On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Alexander Bezzubov wrote: > ...I would be happy > to post it there, if somebody could grant the rights... What's your username for https://blogs.apache.org ? -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric
I would like to help out with the task listed at https://helpwanted.apache.org/task.html?3c264f0f - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org