Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Myrle Krantz]

Sometimes the short replies are the most beautiful

Thank you Jim!

: o),
Myrle

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:34 PM Jim Jagielski  wrote:

> a super-quick reply:
>
> IMO, all aspects of the Apache Way can be found at the start. Basically,
> there were a number of people heavily dependent on a hunk of software, the
> single person who was writing it left, and it left us (and everyone else
> who was using it) in a lurch.
>
> We never want that to ever happen to anyone again. We want to build
> healthy, viable, long-term communities around software projects; we want to
> optimize for the volunteer contributor, because if they are passionate
> about the project/community, they will stay with it, and work on it in
> their spare time. We want it easy as possible to bring in new blood, make
> it worth their while to do so, and enable them to have just as much
> influence and say as people who have spent longer times on the project, as
> true peers. We don't want to disenfranchise anyone because who knows where
> potential contributors could come from. And because we were all using the
> software for various personal self-interest reasons, we wanted a pragmatic
> license and collaboration process.
>
> It is from this mindset, that all tenets of The Apache Way derive...
>
> > On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:03 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet  > wrote:
> >>>
>  Hey y'all,
> 
>  On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>  bdelacre...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher 
>  wrote:
> >>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean
> Geometry
> >>
> >> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
> >> post of yours describing that vision.
> >>
> > +1
> 
>  This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which
> many
>  of you may not be able to see).
> 
>  I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
>  concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
>  it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
> 
>  It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written
> down,
>  and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
>  who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that,
> too.
> 
> >>>
> >>> We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
>  Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
>  descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
>  without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves
> first,
>  revised for a 2019 perspective.
> 
> >>>
> >>> Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can
> mean
> >>> that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it
> cannot
> >>> be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
> >>> people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or
> even
> >>> short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
> >>> declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully
> either,
> >>> nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing
> and
> >>> slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
> >>> write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep
> writing
> >>> about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share
> stories
> >>> about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly
> change.
> >>>
> >>> Kenn
> >>>
> >>
> >> That is why Sally and I have pushed for Apache Way training similar to
> what Sally does with her media training... open discussion, time for Q&A,
> that sort of thing. Sure, writing it down and having it documented is
> useful, but that isn't a complete solution, nor does it solve the problem
> completely.
> >
> > A page at way.apache.org would be good. Here’s is what I had in mind
> when I mentioned Euclidean Geometry. All of it follows from five postulates
> which are statements.
> >
> > Jim - since you are a Founder I am asking you:
> >
> > What are the postulates to the Apache Way as simple statements with the
> elegance of Euclid?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
>
>
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Jim Jagielski]

a super-quick reply:

IMO, all aspects of the Apache Way can be found at the start. Basically, there 
were a number of people heavily dependent on a hunk of software, the single 
person who was writing it left, and it left us (and everyone else who was using 
it) in a lurch.

We never want that to ever happen to anyone again. We want to build healthy, 
viable, long-term communities around software projects; we want to optimize for 
the volunteer contributor, because if they are passionate about the 
project/community, they will stay with it, and work on it in their spare time. 
We want it easy as possible to bring in new blood, make it worth their while to 
do so, and enable them to have just as much influence and say as people who 
have spent longer times on the project, as true peers. We don't want to 
disenfranchise anyone because who knows where potential contributors could come 
from. And because we were all using the software for various personal 
self-interest reasons, we wanted a pragmatic license and collaboration process.

It is from this mindset, that all tenets of The Apache Way derive... 

> On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:03 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Hey y'all,
 
 On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
 bdelacre...@apache.org> wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher 
 wrote:
>>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry
>> 
>> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
>> post of yours describing that vision.
>> 
> +1
 
 This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
 of you may not be able to see).
 
 I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
 concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
 it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
 
 It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
 and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
 who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
 
>>> 
>>> We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
 Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
 descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
 without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
 revised for a 2019 perspective.
 
>>> 
>>> Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can mean
>>> that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it cannot
>>> be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
>>> people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or even
>>> short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
>>> declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully either,
>>> nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing and
>>> slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
>>> write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep writing
>>> about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share stories
>>> about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly change.
>>> 
>>> Kenn
>>> 
>> 
>> That is why Sally and I have pushed for Apache Way training similar to what 
>> Sally does with her media training... open discussion, time for Q&A, that 
>> sort of thing. Sure, writing it down and having it documented is useful, but 
>> that isn't a complete solution, nor does it solve the problem completely.
> 
> A page at way.apache.org would be good. Here’s is what I had in mind when I 
> mentioned Euclidean Geometry. All of it follows from five postulates which 
> are statements.
> 
> Jim - since you are a Founder I am asking you:
> 
> What are the postulates to the Apache Way as simple statements with the 
> elegance of Euclid? 
> 
> Regards,
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 


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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Dave Fisher]

> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey y'all,
>>> 
>>> On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>>> bdelacre...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher 
>>> wrote:
>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry
> 
> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
> post of yours describing that vision.
> 
 +1
>>> 
>>> This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
>>> of you may not be able to see).
>>> 
>>> I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
>>> concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
>>> it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
>>> 
>>> It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
>>> and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
>>> who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
>>> 
>> 
>> We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
>>> Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
>>> descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
>>> without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
>>> revised for a 2019 perspective.
>>> 
>> 
>> Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can mean
>> that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it cannot
>> be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
>> people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or even
>> short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
>> declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully either,
>> nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing and
>> slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
>> write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep writing
>> about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share stories
>> about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly change.
>> 
>> Kenn
>> 
> 
> That is why Sally and I have pushed for Apache Way training similar to what 
> Sally does with her media training... open discussion, time for Q&A, that 
> sort of thing. Sure, writing it down and having it documented is useful, but 
> that isn't a complete solution, nor does it solve the problem completely.

A page at way.apache.org would be good. Here’s is what I had in mind when I 
mentioned Euclidean Geometry. All of it follows from five postulates which are 
statements.

Jim - since you are a Founder I am asking you:

What are the postulates to the Apache Way as simple statements with the 
elegance of Euclid? 

Regards,
Dave



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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Jim Jagielski]

> On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet  > wrote:
> 
>> Hey y'all,
>> 
>> On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
 On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> bdelacre...@apache.org> wrote:
 
 On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher 
>> wrote:
> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry
 
 I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
 post of yours describing that vision.
 
>>> +1
>> 
>> This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
>> of you may not be able to see).
>> 
>> I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
>> concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
>> it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
>> 
>> It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
>> and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
>> who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
>> 
> 
> We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
>> Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
>> descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
>> without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
>> revised for a 2019 perspective.
>> 
> 
> Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can mean
> that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it cannot
> be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
> people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or even
> short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
> declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully either,
> nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing and
> slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
> write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep writing
> about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share stories
> about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly change.
> 
> Kenn
> 

That is why Sally and I have pushed for Apache Way training similar to what 
Sally does with her media training... open discussion, time for Q&A, that sort 
of thing. Sure, writing it down and having it documented is useful, but that 
isn't a complete solution, nor does it solve the problem completely.

Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Kenneth Knowles]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:20 AM Joan Touzet  wrote:

> Hey y'all,
>
> On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacre...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher 
> wrote:
> >>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry
> >>
> >> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
> >> post of yours describing that vision.
> >>
> > +1
>
> This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
> of you may not be able to see).
>
> I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
> concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
> it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.
>
> It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
> and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
> who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.
>

We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
> Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
> descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
> without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
> revised for a 2019 perspective.
>

Exactly. Sometimes when it is said it cannot be written down, it can mean
that it cannot be written down simply and declaratively. Or that it cannot
be expressed by being written just once or one way or by one or a few
people. The concepts in a novel, an ethnography, or a biography, or even
short parables, for example, cannot be simply extracted and written as
declarations. The practices of a culture cannot be described fully either,
nor transmitted by reading. It may be that the large corpus of writing and
slideshows and talking about The Apache Way is a great way to, in fact,
write it down. And IMO in such a situation it is important to keep writing
about it, and have new people keep writing their take, and to share stories
about it. Etc. And of course, it should be expected to constantly change.

Kenn



>
> -Joan "dust yourself off and try again" Touzet
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Joan Touzet]

Hey y'all,

On 2019-07-17 7:53, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz  
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher  wrote:
>>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry
>>
>> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
>> post of yours describing that vision.
>>
> +1

This was where I was aiming with my original post on board@ (which many
of you may not be able to see).

I mentioned I often refer to Shane's summary because it's simple,
concise, and includes the why as well as the what. But I'm aware that
it's just one viewpoint - the website makes that perfectly clear, too.

It's been said to me that a lot of The Apache Way can't be written down,
and I would like to challenge that assertion. I'd also like the people
who claim to know the Way best to work as hard as possible on that, too.

We need all those voices of how people interpret The Apache Way. And as
Dave hints, we can triangulate its essence with more and more
descriptions. I think it'd be premature to try for that triangulation
without interested parties working on capturing it for themselves first,
revised for a 2019 perspective.

-Joan "dust yourself off and try again" Touzet


-
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Re: Focused effort on Apache Way education

[Jim Jagielski]

> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:11 AM Dave Fisher  wrote:
>> ...I’d like to see the Apache Way described like Euclidean Geometry
> 
> I have no clue what this would look like but I'd love to see a blog
> post of yours describing that vision.
> 

+1


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