Re: Helping to welcome non-english communities by questioning our rules?

[tison]

FWIW, I ever wrote a (Chinese) blog about communication tools for an OSS
community[1], that has a section to talk about mailing list.

I enter the OSS world with the Perl 6 (a.k.a. Raku) community so it's
native to me for working with mailing list and even IRC. But it's quite
unfamiliar for especially new contributors even from a worldwide
perspective.

> What if we had a global storage for everything that happens in a project?

Convey/Forwarding to the mailing list is the current solution. I'm
prototyping a community tool to archive activities and will be glad to
collaborate. As Orbit or CommonRoom does, saving all the activities from
different channels so that we can be both (1) archive (2) searchable, and
(3) even _analyzable_.



Best,
tison.

[1] https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/395057453


 于2023年10月26日周四 22:20写道：

> On Thu, 2023-10-26 at 07:42 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> > We have this rule: If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen
> > (Don’t even know if it’s really written down somewhere or if it’s
> > just a common mantra).
>
> It's written here:
>
> https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq#NewbieFAQ-IsthereaCodeofConductforApacheprojects
> ?
>
> And here: https://incubator.apache.org/guides/committer.html
>
> Whether those constitute "policy" or just best practice is left as an
> exercise for the reader.
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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>
>

Re: [PR] No need to redirect here; simplifies local testing [comdev-events-site]

[via GitHub]

sebbASF merged PR #11:
URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-events-site/pull/11


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[PR] No need to redirect here; simplifies local testing [comdev-events-site]

[via GitHub]

sebbASF opened a new pull request, #11:
URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-events-site/pull/11

   (no comment)


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Re: [PR] Link to next upcoming event [comdev-events-site]

[via GitHub]

rbowen merged PR #10:
URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-events-site/pull/10


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[PR] Link to next upcoming event [comdev-events-site]

[via GitHub]

rbowen opened a new pull request, #10:
URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-events-site/pull/10

   (no comment)


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Re: [PR] Community building advice (comdev-site)

[via GitHub]

rbowen merged PR #139:
URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-site/pull/139


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Re: Helping to welcome non-english communities by questioning our rules?

[rbowen]

On Thu, 2023-10-26 at 07:42 +, Christofer Dutz wrote:
> We have this rule: If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen
> (Don’t even know if it’s really written down somewhere or if it’s
> just a common mantra).

It's written here:
https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq#NewbieFAQ-IsthereaCodeofConductforApacheprojects
?

And here: https://incubator.apache.org/guides/committer.html

Whether those constitute "policy" or just best practice is left as an
exercise for the reader.

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Re: patch and reboot of projects-vm

[Chris Thistlethwaite]

Awesome! Rebooting now.

-CT

On Thu, 2023-10-26 at 09:38 -0400, rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote:
> On Thu, 2023-10-26 at 09:25 -0400, Chris Thistlethwaite wrote:
> > Greetings!
> > 
> > I'd like to patch and reboot your VM today at 20:00 UTC. Unless
> > there
> > is a better time, you'd like me to do it ASAP, or there is a
> > conflict
> > with the scheduled time. 
> 
> 
> Please proceed. We have nothing particularly time-sensitive going on,
> and no time is better/worse than another.
> 
> --Rich

Re: patch and reboot of projects-vm

[rbowen]

On Thu, 2023-10-26 at 09:25 -0400, Chris Thistlethwaite wrote:
> Greetings!
> 
> I'd like to patch and reboot your VM today at 20:00 UTC. Unless there
> is a better time, you'd like me to do it ASAP, or there is a conflict
> with the scheduled time. 


Please proceed. We have nothing particularly time-sensitive going on,
and no time is better/worse than another.

--Rich

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patch and reboot of projects-vm

[Chris Thistlethwaite]

Greetings!

I'd like to patch and reboot your VM today at 20:00 UTC. Unless there
is a better time, you'd like me to do it ASAP, or there is a conflict
with the scheduled time. 

Thank you,
Chris T.
#asfinfra

[PR] Community building advice (comdev-site)

[via GitHub]

rbowen opened a new pull request, #139:
URL: https://github.com/apache/comdev-site/pull/139

   As discussed on the dev list, I plan to write a series of practical docs 
about how to grow and retain community in an Apache project.
   


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AW: Helping to welcome non-english communities by questioning our rules?

[Christofer Dutz]

Hi Roman,

Well, I guess stuff like the content from Apache-legal wouldn’t be what I would 
feel comfortable with having auto-translated.
But for most other stuff, I could imagine that storing the original and then 
maybe using the openAI API to have it translated to English and then storing 
that alongside on the incoming part, would be one option.
Then I could imagine that there must be some sort of JS plugin, we could 
integrate into our websites that checks if there’s an original in that language 
or to use the same API to dynamically have it translated.

But I understand that currently this is sort of a theoretic question.

I would doubt MS/OpenAI would appreciate us asking up to 2 questions for 
everything that happens at the ASF:

  *   Is this content English?
  *   Please translate this content to English

Also could I imagine that this service would not be available to everyone and 
in all countries, so probably for the ad-hoc translations a pluggable mechanism 
probably would be required.

But I think it would be worth digging deeper, if there’s a general consent 
here, that something like that would make sense.

Chris


Von: Roman Shaposhnik 
Datum: Donnerstag, 26. Oktober 2023 um 13:05
An: dev@community.apache.org 
Betreff: Re: Helping to welcome non-english communities by questioning our 
rules?
On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:42 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as some of you might know, I recently joined a company where most employees 
> are native Chinese speakers.
> I was looking forward to this for the reason of gaining more insight into how 
> these communities work and was hoping to gain some actionable things to help 
> make the ASF more welcoming to these communities.
>
> Yes: Many of us say: English is the most spoken and understood language on 
> the planet.
> However even if someone might understand English and might be able to write 
> English, they still might not feel comfortable doing so.
> In the PLC4X project we have one person who stated that on multiple occasions 
> and he’s a valuable part of the community.
>
> It seems that our way of writing English emails, even if accessible to 
> communities in China, still it causes them to build up parallel structures:
>
>   *   WeChat Groups
>   *   Workspaces using tools like Lark/Feishu
>
> I was always trying to convince them to come and have discussions on 
> mailing-lists but have generally failed to do so.
>
> Now after starting to work at Timecho, I got used to using their chat tool 
> (Feishu) … it’s sort of like Teams combined with Office 365.
> But the feature that struck me most, was the ability that I could select any 
> channel and enable the “Translation assistant”. Here I could select which 
> language I want to read the discussions in, and I can even have the assistant 
> auto-translate everything to Chinese. This way I can communicate with my 
> colleagues as if I was communicating with native English speakers. It’s been 
> nothing but amazing to see how easy it is to simply ignore language barriers 
> and focus on the task at hand and not having to deal with writing in a 
> non-native language (Well … I think I would be 100% lost, if someone asked me 
> to write in Chinese ;-) )
>
> This got me thinking:
> We have this rule: If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen (Don’t 
> even know if it’s really written down somewhere or if it’s just a common 
> mantra).
> But I think this is just one instance of a solution to the problem of us 
> wanting to have every decision documented and archived and searchable, so 
> everyone can participate and later search for reasons why a project did what 
> they did.
> So … what if we question this rule.
> I was thinking of if we couldn’t achieve what the rule wanted, by introducing 
> a new solution into the picture.
> What if we had a global storage for everything that happens in a project?
> Every input to the project is stored in this system. This input could be in 
> any language.
> If we had a sponsor to allow auto-translating things to English (I am sure 
> there are services out there able to do that)
> A translated English version could be stored alongside the original.
> Now every system we use, could have plugins to send to this central system: 
> Email, GitHub, Jira, Slack, WeChat, …
> If someone could now use this system to follow everything that a project is 
> doing, possibly using the translation API to have things converted into the 
> language he can understand.
>
> I think (except for the translation service), we should have everything we 
> need inside the foundation.
>
> What do you folks think?

Yes, and... ;-)

...I've been thinking along the same lines given that I have recently
helped OpenAtom Foundation get to a point where they have native
translations/explanations of portions from
https://www.apache.org/legal/

The translations are done and have been reviewed by two of our long
standing, bi-lingual ASF members. So they are as good as it 

Re: Helping to welcome non-english communities by questioning our rules?

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:42 AM Christofer Dutz
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> as some of you might know, I recently joined a company where most employees 
> are native Chinese speakers.
> I was looking forward to this for the reason of gaining more insight into how 
> these communities work and was hoping to gain some actionable things to help 
> make the ASF more welcoming to these communities.
>
> Yes: Many of us say: English is the most spoken and understood language on 
> the planet.
> However even if someone might understand English and might be able to write 
> English, they still might not feel comfortable doing so.
> In the PLC4X project we have one person who stated that on multiple occasions 
> and he’s a valuable part of the community.
>
> It seems that our way of writing English emails, even if accessible to 
> communities in China, still it causes them to build up parallel structures:
>
>   *   WeChat Groups
>   *   Workspaces using tools like Lark/Feishu
>
> I was always trying to convince them to come and have discussions on 
> mailing-lists but have generally failed to do so.
>
> Now after starting to work at Timecho, I got used to using their chat tool 
> (Feishu) … it’s sort of like Teams combined with Office 365.
> But the feature that struck me most, was the ability that I could select any 
> channel and enable the “Translation assistant”. Here I could select which 
> language I want to read the discussions in, and I can even have the assistant 
> auto-translate everything to Chinese. This way I can communicate with my 
> colleagues as if I was communicating with native English speakers. It’s been 
> nothing but amazing to see how easy it is to simply ignore language barriers 
> and focus on the task at hand and not having to deal with writing in a 
> non-native language (Well … I think I would be 100% lost, if someone asked me 
> to write in Chinese ;-) )
>
> This got me thinking:
> We have this rule: If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen (Don’t 
> even know if it’s really written down somewhere or if it’s just a common 
> mantra).
> But I think this is just one instance of a solution to the problem of us 
> wanting to have every decision documented and archived and searchable, so 
> everyone can participate and later search for reasons why a project did what 
> they did.
> So … what if we question this rule.
> I was thinking of if we couldn’t achieve what the rule wanted, by introducing 
> a new solution into the picture.
> What if we had a global storage for everything that happens in a project?
> Every input to the project is stored in this system. This input could be in 
> any language.
> If we had a sponsor to allow auto-translating things to English (I am sure 
> there are services out there able to do that)
> A translated English version could be stored alongside the original.
> Now every system we use, could have plugins to send to this central system: 
> Email, GitHub, Jira, Slack, WeChat, …
> If someone could now use this system to follow everything that a project is 
> doing, possibly using the translation API to have things converted into the 
> language he can understand.
>
> I think (except for the translation service), we should have everything we 
> need inside the foundation.
>
> What do you folks think?

Yes, and... ;-)

...I've been thinking along the same lines given that I have recently
helped OpenAtom Foundation get to a point where they have native
translations/explanations of portions from
https://www.apache.org/legal/

The translations are done and have been reviewed by two of our long
standing, bi-lingual ASF members. So they are as good as it gets.

Now, the question I have is: how can we promote this to our
communities who may benefit from it?

The reason I'm asking is not to hijack this thread ;-) but rather to
figure out what would be our attitude towards non-english content
(like what you're suggesting Chris). Would we be comfortable putting
it some place on apache.org ? Would a better option be simply linking
to some other resource? Would a parallel, web property managed by
folks affiliated with ASF, but not officially ASF be a better option?

But to get back to Chris' question: my answer would be "YES -- let's
collect all things that can be helpful (regardless of the language)",
but my followup question would be: how should we manage/expose/promote
it?

Thanks,
Roman.

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Helping to welcome non-english communities by questioning our rules?

[Christofer Dutz]

Hi all,

as some of you might know, I recently joined a company where most employees are 
native Chinese speakers.
I was looking forward to this for the reason of gaining more insight into how 
these communities work and was hoping to gain some actionable things to help 
make the ASF more welcoming to these communities.

Yes: Many of us say: English is the most spoken and understood language on the 
planet.
However even if someone might understand English and might be able to write 
English, they still might not feel comfortable doing so.
In the PLC4X project we have one person who stated that on multiple occasions 
and he’s a valuable part of the community.

It seems that our way of writing English emails, even if accessible to 
communities in China, still it causes them to build up parallel structures:

  *   WeChat Groups
  *   Workspaces using tools like Lark/Feishu

I was always trying to convince them to come and have discussions on 
mailing-lists but have generally failed to do so.

Now after starting to work at Timecho, I got used to using their chat tool 
(Feishu) … it’s sort of like Teams combined with Office 365.
But the feature that struck me most, was the ability that I could select any 
channel and enable the “Translation assistant”. Here I could select which 
language I want to read the discussions in, and I can even have the assistant 
auto-translate everything to Chinese. This way I can communicate with my 
colleagues as if I was communicating with native English speakers. It’s been 
nothing but amazing to see how easy it is to simply ignore language barriers 
and focus on the task at hand and not having to deal with writing in a 
non-native language (Well … I think I would be 100% lost, if someone asked me 
to write in Chinese ;-) )

This got me thinking:
We have this rule: If it didn’t happen on the list, it didn’t happen (Don’t 
even know if it’s really written down somewhere or if it’s just a common 
mantra).
But I think this is just one instance of a solution to the problem of us 
wanting to have every decision documented and archived and searchable, so 
everyone can participate and later search for reasons why a project did what 
they did.
So … what if we question this rule.
I was thinking of if we couldn’t achieve what the rule wanted, by introducing a 
new solution into the picture.
What if we had a global storage for everything that happens in a project?
Every input to the project is stored in this system. This input could be in any 
language.
If we had a sponsor to allow auto-translating things to English (I am sure 
there are services out there able to do that)
A translated English version could be stored alongside the original.
Now every system we use, could have plugins to send to this central system: 
Email, GitHub, Jira, Slack, WeChat, …
If someone could now use this system to follow everything that a project is 
doing, possibly using the translation API to have things converted into the 
language he can understand.

I think (except for the translation service), we should have everything we need 
inside the foundation.

What do you folks think?

Chris

Re: License

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 9:07 AM Kelly Oglesbee
 wrote:
>
> I have a lot of apache licenses on my mobile device, but they have no 
> copyright name copyright year...

Note that an Apache License does not necessarily mean the
corresponding project is an ASF project. Many other open source
projects also use that license.

> I'm new and thinking of becoming a contributor, but I need to understand what 
> all these licenses are
> for before I continue to proceed...

Your phone should indicate which projects are behind those licenses.

As for the ASF, https://projects.apache.org/ has a list of our
projects. If you find one that interests you, best is to get in touch
using their dev@.apache.org mailing list.

Hope this helps,
-Bertrand

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License

[Kelly Oglesbee]

I have a lot of apache licenses on my mobile device, but they have no copyright 
name copyright year, how do I utilize it these licenses and make them my own 
work? I'm new and thinking of becoming a contributor, but I need to understand 
what all these licenses are for before I continue to proceed.

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