Re: [DISCUSS] Dropping the E-word from mod_lua (SFW)
We (the ASF) have services running using mod_lua. If we trust it enough, others should as well. Experimental and unstable will prevent many people from even trying it. How about Cutting Edge? On Aug 2, 2013, at 1:53 PM, Rainer Jung rainer.j...@kippdata.de wrote: On 02.08.2013 14:41, Daniel Gruno wrote: Hi dev@, Though this is mainly a question for docs@, I thought I'd drop this email into the dev@ list instead, since this is where I think objections, if there are any, will arise. Today, on various Internet channels, I have had to do my very best to defend the use of mod_lua, ranging from people asking if it's safe to use to people claiming that it should never be used in a production environment. Why? because of one word in particular: Experimental. In our documentation, we write the following: mod_lua is still in experimental state. Until it is declared stable, usage and behavior may change at any time, even between stable releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading. To a committer/programmer, this may seem totally sane, but to a user of httpd - and I sincerely hope that users are our aim in the documentaion - this wording screams BACK OFF, this may explode at any given time!. As a long time developer and user of httpd/mod_lua for both personal and professional sites/manoeuvres/jobs, I find it sad that I have to defend a module in otherwise perfect working condition with no discernible faults at all, simply because of a wording that scares off regular users of httpd. So I'd really like to change the wording into something less scary, so users can both know that it's still in a development phase, but it won't blow up your computer or spread germs if you use it on a production server. I'd like to change the note to something along these lines: mod_lua is in a state of continuous development. Usage and behavior is subject to change at any time, even between stable releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading From a programming point of view, I can understand if there are reservations towards this change, but I ask you to look at it from a user point of view, and I hope you'll welcome this proposal for change. What about the U-word Unstable? Some might associate with unstable that it is not robust, so again the potential for misinterpretation, but from a technical point of view the term unstable correctly describes the above potential for incompatible changes. Regards, Rainer
[DISCUSS] Dropping the E-word from mod_lua (SFW)
Hi dev@, Though this is mainly a question for docs@, I thought I'd drop this email into the dev@ list instead, since this is where I think objections, if there are any, will arise. Today, on various Internet channels, I have had to do my very best to defend the use of mod_lua, ranging from people asking if it's safe to use to people claiming that it should never be used in a production environment. Why? because of one word in particular: Experimental. In our documentation, we write the following: mod_lua is still in experimental state. Until it is declared stable, usage and behavior may change at any time, even between stable releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading. To a committer/programmer, this may seem totally sane, but to a user of httpd - and I sincerely hope that users are our aim in the documentaion - this wording screams BACK OFF, this may explode at any given time!. As a long time developer and user of httpd/mod_lua for both personal and professional sites/manoeuvres/jobs, I find it sad that I have to defend a module in otherwise perfect working condition with no discernible faults at all, simply because of a wording that scares off regular users of httpd. So I'd really like to change the wording into something less scary, so users can both know that it's still in a development phase, but it won't blow up your computer or spread germs if you use it on a production server. I'd like to change the note to something along these lines: mod_lua is in a state of continuous development. Usage and behavior is subject to change at any time, even between stable releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading From a programming point of view, I can understand if there are reservations towards this change, but I ask you to look at it from a user point of view, and I hope you'll welcome this proposal for change. I hope we won't have to put something as tiny as this to a vote, and if I do not hear any strong objections within the next 72 hours, I will assume lazy consensus and commit this change to the documentation. With regards, Daniel.
Re: [DISCUSS] Dropping the E-word from mod_lua (SFW)
On 2 Aug 2013, at 13:41, Daniel Gruno wrote: In our documentation, we write the following: mod_lua is still in experimental state. Until it is declared stable, usage and behavior may change at any time, even between stable releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading. I hadn't realised that until today on IRC. This is not really compatible with the back-compatibility promise of a stable release. Accepting that what's done is done, I'd want at the very least to enforce the back-compatibility promise from the point where the 'experimental' label is dropped. To a committer/programmer, this may seem totally sane, but to a user of httpd - and I sincerely hope that users are our aim in the documentaion - this wording screams BACK OFF, this may explode at any given time!. So long as an upgrade within 2.4.x might break something, that message is absolutely necessary! I'd like to change the note to something along these lines: mod_lua is in a state of continuous development. Usage and behavior is subject to change at any time, even between stable releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading We tell users that when they upgrade 2.2 -- 2.4, but the opposite when they upgrade 2.4.[x - y]. Your proposed change buries a critically important warning weasel-style in the smallprint! From a programming point of view, I can understand if there are reservations towards this change, but I ask you to look at it from a user point of view, and I hope you'll welcome this proposal for change. Then you MUST deliver to users the promise that upgrade won't break it! -- Nick Kew
Re: [DISCUSS] Dropping the E-word from mod_lua (SFW)
How about marking specific interfaces and directives as experimental, and providing the normal guarantees for the others?
Re: [DISCUSS] Dropping the E-word from mod_lua (SFW)
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Eric Covener cove...@gmail.com wrote: How about marking specific interfaces and directives as experimental, and providing the normal guarantees for the others? ... And maybe splitting into two modules? (how do I know if I'm using experimental features) -- Eric Covener cove...@gmail.com
Re: [DISCUSS] Dropping the E-word from mod_lua (SFW)
On 02.08.2013 14:41, Daniel Gruno wrote: Hi dev@, Though this is mainly a question for docs@, I thought I'd drop this email into the dev@ list instead, since this is where I think objections, if there are any, will arise. Today, on various Internet channels, I have had to do my very best to defend the use of mod_lua, ranging from people asking if it's safe to use to people claiming that it should never be used in a production environment. Why? because of one word in particular: Experimental. In our documentation, we write the following: mod_lua is still in experimental state. Until it is declared stable, usage and behavior may change at any time, even between stable releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading. To a committer/programmer, this may seem totally sane, but to a user of httpd - and I sincerely hope that users are our aim in the documentaion - this wording screams BACK OFF, this may explode at any given time!. As a long time developer and user of httpd/mod_lua for both personal and professional sites/manoeuvres/jobs, I find it sad that I have to defend a module in otherwise perfect working condition with no discernible faults at all, simply because of a wording that scares off regular users of httpd. So I'd really like to change the wording into something less scary, so users can both know that it's still in a development phase, but it won't blow up your computer or spread germs if you use it on a production server. I'd like to change the note to something along these lines: mod_lua is in a state of continuous development. Usage and behavior is subject to change at any time, even between stable releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading From a programming point of view, I can understand if there are reservations towards this change, but I ask you to look at it from a user point of view, and I hope you'll welcome this proposal for change. What about the U-word Unstable? Some might associate with unstable that it is not robust, so again the potential for misinterpretation, but from a technical point of view the term unstable correctly describes the above potential for incompatible changes. Regards, Rainer
