Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Your_localized_title}} syntax to give the translated
Thankyou very much for telling us about this syntax!
I'm glad it works. :-) There are a lot of little hidden features in the
Wiki, and even more that can be added through Extensions.
that could be done by a WIkiBot?
Yes. I can run a WikiBot over the Wiki to make any large changes
necessary. It can work on a text file with a list of pages to be moved,
a Catagory, or subpages. If you have a list of changes needed, just put
together a list of what needs to be done, and I will get the WikiBot
working on it.
Qa/vi/Testtool_FD6
Should those pages be changed to:
VI/QA/pagename
Only if you want to. There is no fixed rule here. What we are looking
for is more of a general guideline with a focus on the Documentation
section. If it makes sense to keep the QA pages as they are, then leave
them. If you want them changed, we can change them. For individual
pages, it is less critical to have things rigidly organized. For
documentation, if things are neatly set up, we can start thinking about
doing some interesting things with the translated documents... like
generating PDF books for each language that a manual is translated into,
and hopefully auto linking the translated books from one language to the
next.
that has been the example set in the WikiMedia wikis. For example, in
each of the WM wikis, "Main Page" is "Trang Chính" in Vietnamese, not
"VI/Main_Page". Hopefully we can reverse this trend.
You also have to note that the WM wikis are likely using Namespaces to
manage the various language groups... we are not (for several historical
reasons) so all languages are in one big pile of Wiki pages instead of
grouped into Namespaces. This means we need to put a little thought
into what we are doing as we move forward and start adding more and more
pages to the Wiki in more and more languages.
I would need to shift quite a few pages to new names, e.g.
Trang_Chính -> VI/Main_Page
Pages can be moved using a WikiBot if this is what each L10N community
would like.
I think this is definitely a move in the right direction. It will take
some work to convert everything, but once it is done, our wiki will have
a much more logical structure, one that is much easier for users to
follow and understand. :)
That is my hope. The question is still out there though.. is this the
right way? or is there a better way? So far, this is the idea that
seems to give us the greatest flexibility with a reasonable level if
structure (eg if someone doesn't put a localized page into the subpage
structure, it will not break anything).
C.
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Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
As far as OOoES is concern we use spanish for the title of the pages.
i.e. HowToBeginner -> ComoPrincipiantes So people will be googling for
something on their own language which makes it a complete different term
to search to.
You are not searching on URL (ie Wiki URL), you are searching on
content... content which is in whatever language on the Wiki. The URL
is largely irrelevant to the end user - unless he or she is trying to
manually type it in of course. From a search, how often does anyone
ever look at the entire URL to decide if a page is relevant? You look
at the content snippet that Google returns and the Page Title (which can
be set by using {{DISPLAYTITLE:Localized_title}}.
I do agree for documentation porpouses is good to have a folder wrapping
things up, but for some reason changing a category seems less disruptive
than to move pages to subfolder. It also more time consuming since there
are more steps involved.
It's all in the idea stage right now. The main focus for me is to gain
a little structure to the documentation side of the Wiki. This does not
mean that the entire Wiki should or must follow whatever organizational
method we eventually decide on... but at least for the documentation
section, we do need to have something in place to help manage the
existing docs, and the various translations that are starting to appear.
Without it, things will be rather messy and hard to sort out in the
long term. Other ideas are more than welcome :-)
Any moves do not need to be overly disruptive. We do have a WikiBot
available to help with that, and redirects to ensure that any external
and internal links remain valid.
C.
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Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
"just an idea" ... well, give us more of just this kind of ideas ;-) In the Dutch language group we had a little discussion on this subject before. And your proposal fits quite well. (Or better: the other way round). With a little change in our (lack of) structure, we can work with it and will be happy to do so. We are going to use the move-function for some of our current pages to get it all right. If you have many pages that you would like to move there is a WikiBot available that can manage it for you (or anyone else that needs Wiki page maintenance done). I would need some info on what you wanted done, and with a little advance notice can run the WikiBot over pages based on Categories, subpages, or a simple text file listing the pages that need moving or maintenance. C. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
Hristo Hristov wrote: On 17.7.2008, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote: To keep things consistent, I would suggest that everyone use capital letters for the ISO language code. I know it would be more familiar in lower case, but that seems to be not possible within the structure of the Wiki engine. Strange! I moved Bg to BG and in Main Page in the left list, the Bulgarian not listed. I returned to Bg but Bulgarian did not show :( For any one page, the language thing is not (yet) automatic. Main_Page uses the first template I created for this (which probably could be renamed to something more appropriate in the future). http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Template:InterWiki_Languages I added [[bg:Bg]] to this page, and now for Main_Page, the Bulgarian translation shows up. If you move the Bulgarian entry page to BG, the redirect will be in place, and the old links to Bg will be properly redirected to the new page. C. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
So that is http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/NL/ for the pages of the Dutch language group. The fact that this table http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:Interwiki lists nl in lower case, is irrelevant? Correct. I can enter the table data as NL or nl, and the result seems to be the same. The syntax should work as [[NL:NL/pagina_in_het_nederlands]] or [[nl:NL/pagina_in_het_nederlands]] The only "required" capital letter is the first letter. You can try to make the page name a lower case, but the Wiki will insist on changing it to an initial capital (there are ways around it, but its a bit hacky and fiddly) If someone finds it different, let me know (I'm still learning how it all works too) C. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
On 17.7.2008, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote: > To keep things consistent, I would suggest that everyone use capital > letters for the ISO language code. I know it would be more familiar in > lower case, but that seems to be not possible within the structure of > the Wiki engine. Strange! I moved Bg to BG and in Main Page in the left list, the Bulgarian not listed. I returned to Bg but Bulgarian did not show :( -- Hristo Simeonov Hristov Leader of OpenOffice.org - Bulgarian GnuPG key 0xD0D895EB: 0282 D8D0 90D3 963F E57E B0A7 2670 88D9 D0D8 95EB signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote (17-7-2008 9:04) Hristo Hristov wrote: I saw that Bg is different that BG. So, which to use? All capital -> BG or just the first leter -> Bg? This is one of the things that has not yet been agreed upon. I had hoped to spark a discussion about this and other things surrounding L10N on the OOoWiki with my earlier email, but no one has really said much about it yet. The backend structure of MediaWiki forces an initial capital letter after the base URL so after http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ the next character must be a capital letter. The Wiki is also case sensitive, so Bg is a different page than BG (and the same with DE vs De, Vi vs VI and so on). To keep things consistent, I would suggest that everyone use capital letters for the ISO language code. I know it would be more familiar in lower case, but that seems to be not possible within the structure of the Wiki engine. So that is http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/NL/ for the pages of the Dutch language group. The fact that this table http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:Interwiki lists nl in lower case, is irrelevant? Thanks, Cor -- "The Year of 3" -2008- "Het jaar van 3" Cor Nouws - Arnhem - Netherlands > marketing contact - http://nl.OpenOffice.org > Zeker van OpenOffice.org - www.nouenoff.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
Hi Clayton, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote (15-7-2008 14:09) Currently, the OpenOffice.org Wiki is quite chaotic. Each L10N group, whether translating existing pages, or authoring new, is using different [...] This is just an idea... what does everyone else think? Is this moving in the right direction? Is there a better way to start organizing this? Please give your thoughts and comments.. good and bad :-) Hopefully we can find a good solution that works for everyone. "just an idea" ... well, give us more of just this kind of ideas ;-) In the Dutch language group we had a little discussion on this subject before. And your proposal fits quite well. (Or better: the other way round). With a little change in our (lack of) structure, we can work with it and will be happy to do so. We are going to use the move-function for some of our current pages to get it all right. Best, Cor -- "The Year of 3" -2008- "Het jaar van 3" Cor Nouws - Arnhem - Netherlands > marketing contact - http://nl.OpenOffice.org > Zeker van OpenOffice.org - www.nouenoff.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:48:29 -0500, Frank Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Alexandro Colorado wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:18:40 -0500, sophie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Clayton, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote: Currently, the OpenOffice.org Wiki is quite chaotic. Each L10N group, whether translating existing pages, or authoring new, is using different styles, naming conventions, linking and so on. The result is a real confused mess of random pages, and no one really knows from one page to the next if there is a localized version, or even how many localized pages there are on a topic. I'm forwarding your mail and this discussion to the NLC group, you may have more audience than here. Kind regards Sophie I also wonder how important is the subfolders when for example we use Categories which works more like a metatag. Subfolders allow us to use Google search more specifically since the search URL differs. Categories mean nothing to Google and MW search is not optimal. -f Maybe but this is only true if you are writing the pages using the same words. i.e. HowToBeginner -> FR/HowToBeginner As far as OOoES is concern we use spanish for the title of the pages. i.e. HowToBeginner -> ComoPrincipiantes So people will be googling for something on their own language which makes it a complete different term to search to. I do agree for documentation porpouses is good to have a folder wrapping things up, but for some reason changing a category seems less disruptive than to move pages to subfolder. It also more time consuming since there are more steps involved. -- Alexandro Colorado CoLeader of OpenOffice.org ES http://es.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] [Fwd: [Translate-devel] Introducing CorpusCatcher 0.1]
On Do, 2008-07-17 at 16:48 +0200, F Wolff wrote: > Hallo everybody > > I think this announcement can be quite interesting for some people on > the list, so I'm forwarding this here. > > Translate.org.za developed CorpusCatcher to help in building web corpora > specifically for applications in spell checker building. The idea is > that this is something that can easily be extended for specific > applications. > My apologies - I meant to write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] *subscribed to too many lists*. Still, hopefully it was interesting to some of you. Sorry for the mistake. Friedel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[l10n-dev] [Fwd: [Translate-devel] Introducing CorpusCatcher 0.1]
Hallo everybody I think this announcement can be quite interesting for some people on the list, so I'm forwarding this here. Translate.org.za developed CorpusCatcher to help in building web corpora specifically for applications in spell checker building. The idea is that this is something that can easily be extended for specific applications. For any comments or to contribute improvements, please join the translate-devel mailing list here: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/translate-devel Keep well Friedel Forwarded Message From: Walter Leibbrandt To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Translate-devel] Introducing CorpusCatcher 0.1 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:24:49 +0200 The first version of CorpusCatcher was released recently. CorpusCatcher is a toolset for creating language corpora by crawling the Web. It was based on BootCaT (http://sslmit.unibo.it/~baroni/tools_and_resources.html), but evolved into a stand-alone project. Thanks to Kevin Scannell for his advice in this regard. Its main features are: - Querying Yahoo! for pages containing specific seed words. - Crawling the web for relevant pages. - Extracting the text from found pages. - Filtering results based on positive and/or negative word lists. The release is available for download at https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=91920&package_id=284333 The live documentation is available on the wiki at http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/corpuscatcher/index Dependecies to use CorpusCatcher: - Python >= 2.4 - mechanize 0.1.7b - pYsearch 3.0 See http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/corpuscatcher/readme#installation for installation details. Please report any bugs found at http://bugs.locamotion.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
Thanks for opening this discussion, Clayton. :)
On 15/07/2008, at 9:39 PM, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote:
Well, the URL for a Wiki page would be in English instead of in the
localized language. There is a way to handle that... you can use
the {{DISPLAYTITLE:Your_localized_title}} syntax to give the
translated page the right page title (this syntax is used
extensively already in the English Documentation subpages... also
see the Chinese document example above)
Thankyou very much for telling us about this syntax! Vietnamese looks
absolutely awful in links, but we want Vietnamese page titles, and up
till now we have had no idea how to solve that problem. Now we do. :))
I imagine this will help other heavily-accented languages, and those
in non-Latin scripts, as well.
There is already a long history of pages in the various random ways
we've built them in the Wiki. Well, that can be easily solved with
the WikiBot. If we come to an agreement that requires a shuffle (or
move) in pages, the WikiBot can do this semi-automatically. It can
move the pages and leave redirects in place from all the old pages
(so no broken link problems). This means no effort from the various
communities.
So, for example, if I asked for all pages with pagenames:
pagename_vi
pagename_VI
pagename.vi
to be converted to:
VI/pagename
that could be done by a WIkiBot?
Also, in the QA part of the wiki, we already have language-code
subdirectories, e.g.
Qa/vi/Testtool_FD6
Should those pages be changed to:
VI/QA/pagename
?
There are also quite a few pages with entirely Vietnamese page names,
either because they are original pages (not translations), or because
I have tried to translate the original pagename. I agree that
translating the pagename isn't the best way, especially now we can
create localized titles in another way, but many translators may have
done it, because that has been the example set in the WikiMedia wikis.
For example, in each of the WM wikis, "Main Page" is "Trang Chính" in
Vietnamese, not "VI/Main_Page". Hopefully we can reverse this trend.
I would need to shift quite a few pages to new names, e.g.
Trang_Chính -> VI/Main_Page
It looks like you can rename a page [1], so we won't have to worry
about obsolete pages.
What about linking from one language to the next in a specific page?
There is already a solution in place on the Wiki for that called
InterWiki Links. Take a look at the OOoWiki Main Page or the
Extensions pages for examples of how this works.
Are there other disadvantages?
This is just an idea... what does everyone else think? Is this
moving in the right direction? Is there a better way to start
organizing this? Please give your thoughts and comments.. good and
bad :-) Hopefully we can find a good solution that works for
everyone.
I think this is definitely a move in the right direction. It will take
some work to convert everything, but once it is done, our wiki will
have a much more logical structure, one that is much easier for users
to follow and understand. :)
from Clytie
Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team
http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n
[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Merging_and_moving_pages#How_to_rename_a_page
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Re: [l10n-dev] To make good use of a glossary..
Hi everybody :) On 15/07/2008, at 7:14 PM, Hung Nguyen Vu wrote: Hello, One challenge with your approach is that it will not available online, so it will be a little inconvenient sharing the glossary among your community. To overcome such issues, Wiktionary is another way to share the glossary, not only the OOo team benefits from Wiktionary, but all the Internet users as well. Hưng, welcome to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list! :) Everyone, Hưng is an prominent member of our Vietnamese OpenOffice.org Project. He has done a lot of work on our OpenOffice.org 3.0 localization. I am glad to see him sharing his experience here. from Clytie Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [l10n-dev] Laks, Crores, etc...
Hi Javier, On Wednesday, 2008-07-16 16:22:31 +0700, Javier SOLA wrote: > In reference to issue 53498 > > http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=53498 > > I understand that for Indian scripts the application of the ##,##,### format > is now automatic in Indian (-IN) locales. > > For Bhutan, Bangladesh and any other countries that also group numbers in a > ##,##,### format, I assume that it has to be defined in the locale file. Due to time restrictions, as also mentioned in the issue, I didn't add that to locale data yet, as it would need additional API and implementation. The locales respectively countries currently are hard coded in unotools/source/i18n/localedatawrapper.cxx method LocaleDataWrapper::getDigitGroupingImpl() and encompass all languages of countries 'IN' India and 'BT' Bhutan. We may add Bangladesh there as well. On a long term scale that should of course be moved to a proper definition in locale data. Eike -- OOo/SO Calc core developer. Number formatter stricken i18n transpositionizer. SunSign 0x87F8D412 : 2F58 5236 DB02 F335 8304 7D6C 65C9 F9B5 87F8 D412 OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't send personal mail to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] account, which I use for mailing lists only and don't read from outside Sun. Use [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks. pgpJXOseuKfLx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
Alexandro Colorado wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:18:40 -0500, sophie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Clayton, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote: Currently, the OpenOffice.org Wiki is quite chaotic. Each L10N group, whether translating existing pages, or authoring new, is using different styles, naming conventions, linking and so on. The result is a real confused mess of random pages, and no one really knows from one page to the next if there is a localized version, or even how many localized pages there are on a topic. I'm forwarding your mail and this discussion to the NLC group, you may have more audience than here. Kind regards Sophie I also wonder how important is the subfolders when for example we use Categories which works more like a metatag. Subfolders allow us to use Google search more specifically since the search URL differs. Categories mean nothing to Google and MW search is not optimal. -f -- Frank Peters Documentation Project Co-Lead The OOo Documentation Project: SIGN UP - PARTICIPATE - CONTRIBUTE IT'S FREE! NO OBLIGATIONS! http://documentation.openoffice.org http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
I also wonder how important is the subfolders when for example we use Categories which works more like a metatag. Subfolders help us a lot with just simple organization... particularly in the documentation. When you have a small topic with only a few Wiki pages, subfolders don't add a lot (ie are not that important), but when you are dealing with a behemoth like the Developer's Guide or the larger documents like the User Guide and BASIC Guide, grouping into subfolders helps the maintainers visualize where they are in the book structure etc. I have also found that Categories can be forgotten or accidentally deleted. If this happens to a page belonging to a documentation set, it can easily be lost in the thousands of Wiki pages if everything is stored in one big pile... whereas if it is in subpages, it can be easily found again, or discovered during routine maintenance (which is more likely, since noticing random missing info in a large document like the Developer's Guide which is hovering around 1000 Wiki pages is difficult). Outside of the documentation world... that's up to personal/group choice. Most non-documentation pages stand on their own or belong with just a few associated pages. In this case, a Category is a reasonable choice. Of course this is all my observations :-) If anyone has a better idea of how to handle something like the Developer's Guide (which is really the driver for all this), and keeping the various translations in line with the source documentation... please speak up. Ultimately we need to establish some basic and simple guidelines so that: - L10N is manageable for both the translators and the readers. - we can easily identify translations that have been done. - we can easily link from one translated doc to the next. C. -- Clayton Cornell [EMAIL PROTECTED] StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:18:40 -0500, sophie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Clayton, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote: Currently, the OpenOffice.org Wiki is quite chaotic. Each L10N group, whether translating existing pages, or authoring new, is using different styles, naming conventions, linking and so on. The result is a real confused mess of random pages, and no one really knows from one page to the next if there is a localized version, or even how many localized pages there are on a topic. I'm forwarding your mail and this discussion to the NLC group, you may have more audience than here. Kind regards Sophie I also wonder how important is the subfolders when for example we use Categories which works more like a metatag. -- Alexandro Colorado CoLeader of OpenOffice.org ES http://es.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
Hi Clayton, ccornell - OpenOffice.org wrote: Currently, the OpenOffice.org Wiki is quite chaotic. Each L10N group, whether translating existing pages, or authoring new, is using different styles, naming conventions, linking and so on. The result is a real confused mess of random pages, and no one really knows from one page to the next if there is a localized version, or even how many localized pages there are on a topic. I'm forwarding your mail and this discussion to the NLC group, you may have more audience than here. Kind regards Sophie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [l10n-dev] How do we handle L10N in the OOoWiki?
Hristo Hristov wrote: Hi, I saw that Bg is different that BG. So, which to use? All capital -> BG or just the first leter -> Bg? This is one of the things that has not yet been agreed upon. I had hoped to spark a discussion about this and other things surrounding L10N on the OOoWiki with my earlier email, but no one has really said much about it yet. The backend structure of MediaWiki forces an initial capital letter after the base URL so after http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ the next character must be a capital letter. The Wiki is also case sensitive, so Bg is a different page than BG (and the same with DE vs De, Vi vs VI and so on). To keep things consistent, I would suggest that everyone use capital letters for the ISO language code. I know it would be more familiar in lower case, but that seems to be not possible within the structure of the Wiki engine. Regardless of what we have used in the past, and what we may use until there is some general agreement, it can all be fixed and lined up. :-) We can shuffle the Wiki pages around if needed using the WikiBot, and the redirects make sure that old links still point to the right pages. C. -- Clayton Cornell [EMAIL PROTECTED] StarOffice - Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Hamburg, Germany - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
