Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi all. Pardon the top post, but for what I have to say, it's the best way to go. As things stand, I cannot support this move. From where I sit there are several things that make me extremely wary. The first (and major) sticking point is the name of the putative foundation. "The Document Foundation"? This smacks of a hijacking by the Open Document Foundation (ODF). I mean, just look at the names - there is only one word different, and I've noticed that at least some of those backing this move are (or were) heavily involved with the ODF. Think about it, and you may realize why I'm so sceptical about the "foundation" and its credentials. So for that reason, I would have extreme difficulty promoting it, unless I am presented with very strong evidence that the two foundations have nothing to do with each other. Secondly, "Libre Office"!? Come on! For a Francophone (and probably speakers of the other Romance languages) the name might mean something. But to an Anglophone, who is not "into" OSS, it conveys no meaning at all. The same would apply to virtually all other non-Romance languages. The choice of "Libre" immediately gives me the impression that the whole thing has been engineered by a group from the "rat-bag" fringe elements of OSS "purists", those who want to see all proprietary software companies totally destroyed, and who refuse to concede that sometimes Open Source Software is *not* better (yes, maybe I am a heretic. So what?). It has been said that most of the OO.o community is backing this. I have trouble believing the figures put forward. Bear in mind that the Community Council is *not* the entire community. The Developers are *not* the entire community. They are *part* of the community, and *only* part of it. Couple that with the fact that no-one has publicly canvassed the views of the community prior to the announcement. Nothing has been said apart from the occasional rumblings of discontent from the same few people. To the vast majority of people who comprise the community, this announcement would have come as a complete shock. So, to recapitulate, until I am satisfied that this move is not in any way related to other non-OO.o groups, and until you can come up with a much better name (one which can be translated without loss of meaning, and which does not sound stupid to Joe Sixpack), Then I will not support the "foundation" in any way (of course, should Oracle come to the party, then there will be no problem). The idea of a foundation is one I support, but this does not come across as the right way to go about it. > Hi Simon, > > Simon Brouwer wrote (05-10-10 09:33) > > > Drew Jensen schreef: > >> And just to be clear - why is it that you equate what is happening with > >> "going down the drain", is it only viable, your contribution if their is > >> a corporate affiliation? > > > > I am not equating that, but I am concerned that a breakup of the > > cooperation that exists right now in OpenOffice.org between the Hamburg > > team of Oracle (which drives a substantial part of its development) and > > the community at large will seriously slow down the development and/or > > I had that concern too. And still to a certain, more and more limited, > extend. But that only is for the intermediate time, during the > transition. Look: > [snippage] -- Alex Fisher Co-Lead, CD-ROM Project OpenOffice.org Marketing Community Contact Australia/New Zealand http://distribution.openoffice.org/cdrom/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Am Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:33:35 +0200 schrieb Thorsten Behrens : > > A foundation per se is a great thing, but when there are two source > > code repositories and two final products then "this project" is > > either schizophrenic or it is actually two projects. And being > > schizophrenic is not a healthy state of mind. > > > Then OOo 3.2.1, 3.2 etc. are forks, too? No, because they get contributed to the main development codeline (aka DEV300). > And surely, in this day and age, we have at least as many source > code repositories as there are active developers in the project - as > with DSCMs, everyone has his local clone anyway. I find the attempt > to argue on the grounds of technicalities rather ironic, when, in > reality, all this is about is community. Which is not a problem at all as long as these repositories can freely interchange their code. With diverting codelines that will be very hard for a huge project as is OOo. > > If do want not contribute to that under the current conditions > > there are only two mutually exclusive choices: Either try to > > change the conditions in the existing project or start your own. > > > Quite. Currently we're trying to change the conditions with, and > within, the existing project. You argue we are not entitled to do > so, and I wonder where that authority comes from. I am not saying you are not entitled to do so. I am saying, and that is just a personal opinion, that trying to change the conditions in the project is getting harder when you are creating an incompatible branch at the same time. Best Regards, Bjoern -- Oracle Bjoern Michaelsen | Software Engineer Phone: +49 40 2515230 | Fax: +49 40 256811 Oracle Office GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Andreas, Andreas Bartel wrote on 2010-10-05 13.02: I am just thinking how ironic it seems, at least for me, that the company that is paying money for the infrastructure you all use in this very moment is being bashed in a way that makes all of us look very pathetic. we're using the infrastructure - that is sponsored by Oracle - has been shaped and formed by the Community - and is held by Oracle in due diligence for the Community - to discuss things about the Community I don't get the point what's wrong about this. And, don't forget, that others contributed to the infrastructure as well, with their work and money (example: QATrack, hosted on OOoDeV machines). Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Andreas, Andreas Bartel wrote (05-10-10 13:02) [...] I am just thinking how ironic it seems, at least for me, that the company that is paying money for the infrastructure you all use in this very moment is being bashed in a way that makes all of us look very pathetic. That might possible be the result of old pains and frustrations that sneaky find their way out through personal messages? Anyway the official texts we look very careful for more aspects, one of them being respectful to the good things that Oracle(Sun) brought OpenOffice.org. Period. And I know that personal messages from my keyboard breathe the same spirit. Kindest regards, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - ideas/remarks for the community council? See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Budget Request - OOo 10th Birthday Party in Beijing
Hi Peter, Peter Junge wrote (05-10-10 13:34) Hi Florian, despite times of troubles, I'm planning to throw a party for OOo's 10th birthday as part of the monthly meeting of the Beijing Linux User Group Great initiative :-) on October 12th. Accordingly, I would like to request a subsidy of up to 150 Euro on the expenses of the OOo Marketing Project budget to support this little event. +1 Cor (too fast, sorry Florian ;-) ) -- - free OpenOffice.org :: LibreOffice - - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
[marketing] Budget Request - OOo 10th Birthday Party in Beijing
Hi Florian, despite times of troubles, I'm planning to throw a party for OOo's 10th birthday as part of the monthly meeting of the Beijing Linux User Group on October 12th. Accordingly, I would like to request a subsidy of up to 150 Euro on the expenses of the OOo Marketing Project budget to support this little event. Best regards, Peter - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Simon, Simon Brouwer wrote (05-10-10 09:33) Drew Jensen schreef: And just to be clear - why is it that you equate what is happening with "going down the drain", is it only viable, your contribution if their is a corporate affiliation? I am not equating that, but I am concerned that a breakup of the cooperation that exists right now in OpenOffice.org between the Hamburg team of Oracle (which drives a substantial part of its development) and the community at large will seriously slow down the development and/or I had that concern too. And still to a certain, more and more limited, extend. But that only is for the intermediate time, during the transition. Look: One: when the (unbound part of the) community starts to move (be it 80 or 95 %), there is no choice. You can stand still, or help to make it a success. Which in the end is better for all, *all*. Two: as explained so often already the last weeks: lot of potential development power (both private and corporate) have been missed because of the past situation. And this new independent foundation is going to solve that. So as soon as we have combined efforts as much as possible (without either too fanatic 'free' vision, nor too much business eagerness, just a good balance, therefore the independent foundation) it is an advantage for all, including Oracle. hurt (potential) users' confidence. I have yet to see whether TDF, with all its good intentions, will be able to set up the LibreOffice project with sufficient developer force and expertise to really compensate. Soon there will be numbers made public by TDF. See what grows or even better, join to help to make also your dream come through. Kindest regards, Cor -- - free OpenOffice.org :: LibreOffice - - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Am Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:05:19 +0200 schrieb Thorsten Behrens : > > If you move your contributions somewhere else it supports your > > position there, but not in this project anymore. > > > Your definition of "this project" is kinda arbitrary, and definitely > does not match mine. For me, this project is defined by its > community, the shared vision on what it is & what it should become - And the focal point of this is the source code and the final product (aka OpenOffice.org releases). > and if you look around, you find very many people, including all > non-Oracle members of the CC, favouring an independent foundation. A foundation per se is a great thing, but when there are two source code repositories and two final products then "this project" is either schizophrenic or it is actually two projects. And being schizophrenic is not a healthy state of mind. > I think you need to clarify this: with "contributing to > OpenOffice.org", you mean "contributing to Oracle"? Otherwise I do > not understand your statement. I mean contributing to the Openoffice.org releases, their source code or promoting and marketing of them. If do want not contribute to that under the current conditions there are only two mutually exclusive choices: Either try to change the conditions in the existing project or start your own. I guess, mixing both throwing in an "independant foundation that is part of it"(*) will not serve anybody. Ah well, we will see. Best Regards, Bjoern (*) oxymoron detected here -- Oracle Bjoern Michaelsen | Software Engineer Phone: +49 40 2515230 | Fax: +49 40 256811 Oracle Office GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Florian, I'd like to join you in sharing thoughts :-) By the way, to steal Charle's thunder, I am neither mad nor do I hate anyone. I am still doing my job as before and I am pretty much confident that I will continue improving the UX of OpenOffice.org in the future, for quite some time. So no hard feelings at all. I am just thinking how ironic it seems, at least for me, that the company that is paying money for the infrastructure you all use in this very moment is being bashed in a way that makes all of us look very pathetic. The other thing that I've been observing so far is that those who are not sure if they like TDF or OpenOffice.org more are treated with very little respect. Especially on the Germanophone list. Regards, Andreas Am 05.10.2010 12:38, schrieb Florian Effenberger: Hi, I'd love to share some thoughts that I have already sent to the Germanophone list: 1. We have an OpenOffice.org Community Council, elected in a long, open and transparent process, to ensure this Council represents the Community we are talking about in the best way possible. *EVERYONE* in this Council who is not an Oracle employee, is part of TDF, and also some deputies are with us. The Council's mission is to ensure the will of the Community is respected, and to ensure it's interest is spoken out with an united voice. If all Council representatives despite Oracle support the step, this clearly should make a lot of people think. 2. The feedback we have received so far from the Community (again, the Community we are talking about) has been either very positive, and at worst, "let's see". The only ones talking about two communities, about splitting, about forking, are Oracle people. Why? Why do you think you can speak on everyone's behalf, if the reality seems to look a bit different? These are, very briefly, my thoughts. I still feel responsible for *ONE* Community, our Community. Florian -- Andreas Bartel | User Experience Engineer Phone: +49 (0)40 236 46 - 672 Oracle OFFICE GBU ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Nagelsweg 55 | 20097 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Rijnzathe 6, 3454PV De Meern, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz, Marcel van de Molen, Alexander van der Ven Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi, I'd love to share some thoughts that I have already sent to the Germanophone list: 1. We have an OpenOffice.org Community Council, elected in a long, open and transparent process, to ensure this Council represents the Community we are talking about in the best way possible. *EVERYONE* in this Council who is not an Oracle employee, is part of TDF, and also some deputies are with us. The Council's mission is to ensure the will of the Community is respected, and to ensure it's interest is spoken out with an united voice. If all Council representatives despite Oracle support the step, this clearly should make a lot of people think. 2. The feedback we have received so far from the Community (again, the Community we are talking about) has been either very positive, and at worst, "let's see". The only ones talking about two communities, about splitting, about forking, are Oracle people. Why? Why do you think you can speak on everyone's behalf, if the reality seems to look a bit different? These are, very briefly, my thoughts. I still feel responsible for *ONE* Community, our Community. Florian -- Florian Effenberger OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead Tel: +49 8341 99660880 Fax: +49 8341 99660889 Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 10:53 +0200, Bjoern michaelsen wrote: > I have not seen any hate around here, however quite lot of personal > disappointment. Politics is all about personal disappointments. What is done is done so let's look forward. In the end he who pays the piper calls the tune. Whether the resource is split between two projects or largely focused in one will determine the longer term outcome. If one commands more resource than the other it will probably dominate in terms of user volume. For ordinary community members like me it comes down to whether I believe a Foundation will be better than single company control, on the emotional side in terms of my value systems and on the rational side in terms of effect on the market. LibreOffice's market success will depend on the resources that it can attract and how much will Oracle has to either join it or compete with it. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:19:56 +0200 "Charles-H. Schulz" wrote: > No. We're not NeoOffice, Lotus or Oracle Open Office: we are > OpenOffice.org ... No, you selfproclaimed are TDF/LO in the first place and OpenOffice.org only if it suits you. If you move your contributions somewhere else it supports your position there, but not in this project anymore. So when you are claiming to wanting to move to a more meritocratic structure, it is unfortunate to see you want to keep influence on a project you do not want to contribute anymore. As I said before: You cant have a cake and eat it. If you are still interested in contributing to OpenOffice.org, I would be very interested in an reliable precise statement by TDF on how it intends to contribute back to OpenOffice.org. So far I only heard about how it intends _not_ to contribute back. > Think about this fact: People who have been working with you guys for > 10 years or who generally have contributed their best days, their > leisure time, their jobs, to build OOo ... While not being part of the project for so long, you describe me and many others at Oracle. For many here OpenOffice.org is not just a job and they are contributing in their leisure time much more than you might think. These are people that are rightfully feeling part of the OpenOffice.org community just as you were. > How could we have come up with such a crazy project for which some, > if most of you will hate us for the rest of their lives? Again, think > about it. I was really interested to find out. Unfortunately by actions seen by now I get the feeling that naïveté had a lot to do with it. And, by the way: I have not seen any hate around here, however quite lot of personal disappointment. Best Regards, Bjoern - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
It's OK. Never mind. Tina 2010/10/5 Simon Brouwer > Hi Drew, > > Drew Jensen schreef: > > > >> Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member > >> without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. > >> However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle > >> in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the > >> continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big > >> change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts > >> (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. > >> > > > > Simon, > > > > Disregard the last email - it doesn't really fit with what you actually > > said there. > > Too late... ;) > > > -- > Vriendelijke groet, > > Simon Brouwer > -*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*- > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org > > -- -- 李延華 iThome軟體召集人 tina...@mail.ithome.com.tw 0988-134-846 (02)2562-2880 ext. 3639 台北市南京東路二段6號11樓
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Drew, Drew Jensen schreef: > >> Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member >> without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. >> However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle >> in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the >> continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big >> change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts >> (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. >> > > Simon, > > Disregard the last email - it doesn't really fit with what you actually > said there. Too late... ;) -- Vriendelijke groet, Simon Brouwer -*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
Re: [marketing] Result: Logo for the 10th anniversary - request for approval
Hi Drew, Drew Jensen schreef: > >> Just to make it clear: I am an independent volunteer community member >> without any affiliation with Oracle that might color my perspective. >> However, until now I am not convinced that the position of Sun/Oracle >> in the project has been, or was going to be, a larger obstacle to the >> continued success of OpenOffice.org (under any name) than this big >> change may turn out to be. I would be very sorry to see the efforts >> (including mine) of ten years OOo going down the drain. >> > > And just to be clear - why is it that you equate what is happening with > "going down the drain", is it only viable, your contribution if their is > a corporate affiliation? I am not equating that, but I am concerned that a breakup of the cooperation that exists right now in OpenOffice.org between the Hamburg team of Oracle (which drives a substantial part of its development) and the community at large will seriously slow down the development and/or hurt (potential) users' confidence. I have yet to see whether TDF, with all its good intentions, will be able to set up the LibreOffice project with sufficient developer force and expertise to really compensate. -- best regards, Simon Brouwer -*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@marketing.openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@marketing.openoffice.org
