[dev] Update: ODF Workshop Agenda: November 6th @OpenOffice.org Conference
Rob Weir has made some amendments to the agenda, so I am re-publishing here: What to bring with you to the workshop You will be able to participate most fully if you come to the workshop with a laptop running an ODF word processor and an ODF spreadsheet application. Most of the segments will be dealing with features which are common across ODF 1.0, ODF 1.1 and ODF 1.2. If more than one person is representing a single application, then please try to bring a mix of operating systems, so we have a greater mix. So, if we have multiple OpenOffice people (and I'm certain we will), let's see it on Linux, on Windows, on the Mac, etc. For bonus hacker points, bring a build environment for your application, so you can instantly fix any bugs found. If I recall, we saw David Faure do that last year with KOffice. If you are not representing an ODF vendor or open source application, you are still welcome to attend. You can watch, certainly. But maybe you want to "adopt" an implementation and work through the exercises with it? Be creative! Do the exercises on a screen reader interface to Symphony. Do them on a Symbian phone with an ODF viewer. All are different types of interoperability. === The Agenda === The agenda will be as follows: 09:00 - 09:15 -- Introductions, Review of the Agenda (Rob Weir) 09:15 - 09:45 -- Keynote Presentation: The State of ODF Interoperability (Bart Hanssens) 9:45 - 10:00 -- Short review of the paper "Lost in Translation: Interoperability Issues for Open Standards( http://ssrn.com/abstract=1201708) by Shah and Kesan (Rob Weir) 10:00 - 10:45 -- Group experimentation using the ODF documents used by Shah and Kesan in their study 10:45 - 11:15 -- Break 11:15 - 12:00 -- Continuation of group experimentation 12:00 - 13:00 -- Lunch Break 13:00 - 13:30 -- Presentation and Discussion: Considerations on Interoperability of ODF 1.2 Metadata (Svante Schubert) 13:30 - 14:00 -- Presentation on ODF/UOF Translation and Interoperability (Cheng Lin) 14:00 - 14:45 -- Short presentation on OpenFormula and group exercise 14:45 - 15:15 -- Break 15:15 - 17:15 -- Unstructured time. At first we were going to fill the day solid with presentations and activities, with, with every minute dedicated to some productive task pre-determined by the organizers. But on further reflection, we think the workshop participants, collectively, may find better use for this slot than than organizers could predict. So consider this an opportunity for free discussion related to interoperability, to brainstorm on approaches and techniques, to give a mini-presentation on a related topic of interest, to revisit a topic discussed earlier in the day, to present a challenging test document for the workshop participants to try, or other similar activities. If no one has any better ideas, the fallback plan would be to spend two hours working on the interoperability of a complex Chinese HR form. 17:15 - 18:00 -- Closing Remarks, Summary of work remaining to be done. This is going to be a very interesting and exciting workshopfor those that care about ODF and its future success. Please invite your colleagues who will benefit. Regards, /don Don Harbison Program Director, IBM ODF Initiative Business & Technical Strategy IBM Software Group tel:1-978-399-7018 Mobile: +1-978-761-0116 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[dev] Re: [marketing] Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Community Mapping Project
Hi Andre, Its good to know this map created by Eike exists. I took a poll of a few OOo members and and this is the first I learn of this map, so many thanks for the link. And Yes there seems to be a lot of spam entries in this ooodev map. This idea was to not to only map ALL contributors but also some key milestones and produce an OOo a story. I had positive response from people when I talked about the idea and ofcourse the people working on OOo are key to this story, without which we don't have a story. The mapping pages are hosted elsewhere including the questionaire, so we could use simple tools to very quickly setup a questionaire and these currently don't exist on the OOo site (to my knowledge). Once complete, the final maps can be downloadable directly from the OOo site, so this exercise is not to create a community elsewhere, but to capture the information in a database/spreadsheet which ( unfortunately) has to reside elsewhere, as we do for other surveys. As you will see from my examples. It will not include spam, since there is a little manual intervention needed to move the content over from the spreadsheet where we gather the information over to the Google Map/Earth. Given we want to map milestones as well as community profiles - so producing a story of OOo, a different kind of exercise to this map. Any creative input would be very welcome. I have a lot of photos, starting from the early days of OOo and my days working at Sun and some more recent while traveling and meeting OOo contributors around the world, that make up some of the Openoffice.org story that I would like to share and link to a story. It would be great to link to a part of the world and find ALL contributors in the area that may not know of each other. I wanted to encourage others to share their stories and do the same. I think you will agree this is a different kind of map to the one linked to below. I anticipated a map of the OOo story could happen quickly but this may be a while in the making. ;-) If anyone would like to help with the data capture and mapping it would be very welcome, the final map can be as content rich as the information we all provide. At a minimum I would love for everyone to enter a short profile. Best Zaheda HI Andre, On 30 Oct 2008, at 04:57, André Schnabel wrote: Hi, Zaheda Bhorat schrieb: :-( We have only six community entries so far in our attempt to create an OpenOffice.org community map. None of the entries include developers. Our goal was to get off to a great start to this project with many entries in time for OOoCon 2008 in Beijing next week. Sometimes it might be better to use the resources that are already there instead of creating new ones: http://www.frappr.com/ooodev/map This has many of our developers and contributors.SOmewith short statements what they do here in the project. (Unfortunately most of the recent entries are spam) The curious thing about communities is that they grow where they like - and not when and where we like them to grow. The idea is not to create a community elsewhere but to use tools that exists elsewhere to create map - as with the frapper.com map. The final map can easily be linked to directly from the OOo site and downloaded from this site. André - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] “The blessed ones are those who do what they are meant to do."
Re: [dev] Re: [marketing] Re: [project leads] Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Community Mapping Project
Mathias Bauer wrote: >> In my case, I am trying to submit some bugs to OOo qa. Most of them >> are still there, marked as "NEW" > > Yes, this is quite normal. As an example, in the Word Processor project > alone we have more than 5000 issues. You can't expect that each of these > issues will be fixed immediately. We have to prioritize issues. Of > course for those that submit issues they usually are the most important > ones - but if everything is important, nothing is important! Besides that - here's a query of issues you submitted: > Fri Oct 31 06:51:11 + 2008 > IDTypePri PlatOwner State Resolution Summary > 94932 DEFECT P3 Unknown [EMAIL PROTECTED] UNCONF Buttons in > spellcheck windows are mis-aligned. > 93390 DEFECT P3 All od NEW OOO300 m2 Writer on Windows > zoom too slow > 94931 DEFECT P3 Unknown mru NEW OOo 3.0 does not redraw after > inserting a Floating Frame > 92866 DEFECT P4 All [EMAIL PROTECTED] NEW Vietnamese HC2 > 100% translated but displays English > 94453 DEFECT P3 All is STARTE Textbox in Installation wizard > too short > 93594 ENHANC P2 PC requirementsRESOLV WONT"What is this" > executes what users point to > 95043 DEFECT P3 All [EMAIL PROTECTED] RESOLV FIXE[QA] QA > status of vi 3.0 build > 95338 DEFECT P3 All [EMAIL PROTECTED] RESOLV FIXEQA > distribute 3.0.0 vi Linux deb So two of your issues are fixed already, one is not accepted (yes, developers may reject wishes for enhancements if they are the ones that should implement them!), one is unconfirmed as obviously until now noone had a time to confirm it. This is partially your fault as you chose the wrong component and unfortunately in "lingucomponent" the QA activity is low. I took the libery to forward the issue to someone for confirmation. Next time please ask on the QA mailing list if an issue stays unconfirmed for a long time. Three issues are in status "New". That means, someone has taken the time to confirm them and now they are waiting for someone to start working on them. One of them even already got a target 3.x assigned, the others still don't have a target. If nobody started working on them it simply means that the people involved think that other issues currently are more important and should get higher priority. So you must explain why these issues are more important than the many others that have a "later" target. Ciao, Mathias -- Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't reply to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]". I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] Re: [marketing] Re: [project leads] Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Community Mapping Project
Nguyen Vu Hung wrote: > OOo is a very big project( 9.8 MLOC) and it is quite hard to add a new > feature, > or fix a bug. If a local team( or a contributor) shows a bug and tags > it WORK_FOR_ME( a stopper), > chances are they get fixed with very low probability. I don't know what "local team" means. Issues are reviewed by quite a lot of people, not only those in Hamburg. You shouldn't talk so badly about all the wonderful people all over the world that help us to confirm issues. I'm very thankful to them. If you have an issue that is set to "Works for me" by someone you can work with him to find out how the issue could be reproduced so that it can be reopened. Please understand that if developers can't reproduce an issues, they can't fix it! So help to find out why a problem you have is not reproducible for the QA side. Of course this will need some additional work on your sided, but nobody said that getting involved is possible without doing some work. > Due to the big size, > new comers will find it very hard to get started with OOo. The main > reason, IMO( again) > is that, core coders of the OOo project is not willing to share the knowledge. Sorry, but this is an outrageous allegation that ignores all those many activities we have done to get other people involved. You don't help yourself a lot with that as it damages your credibility. The problem is not that anyone isn't willing to share knowledge, the problem is that people are not willing to accept that getting the knowledge takes more than a few hours. I could show you many examples of people that asked me for help and I invested hours for an answer, explaining things, pointing to documentation etc., but then never got a reply. But all people that replied, bit the bullet and invested the necessary work to get started, got more and more help until they finally reached their goal. > In my case, I am trying to submit some bugs to OOo qa. Most of them > are still there, marked as "NEW" Yes, this is quite normal. As an example, in the Word Processor project alone we have more than 5000 issues. You can't expect that each of these issues will be fixed immediately. We have to prioritize issues. Of course for those that submit issues they usually are the most important ones - but if everything is important, nothing is important! So there must be someone that sets the priorities in all conscience. And of course this "someone" can be wrong at times. But I'm sure that all of these "someones" can be asked if something could be changed in their priorisation. But that would need a kind question, not a bold attack. I change priorities quite often if someone puts a comment into an issue that shows me when I was wrong. But OTOH, when I'm supposed to do the work, I have the right *not* to raise the priority if the arguments don't satisfy me. If you can't accept that and want the developers to be your coding slaves, I can't help. > and a questions pops up in in mind: How OOo treats contributors? How > QA works in OOo? Did you ask on the QA mailing list about that? Or did you have a look on the QA project's web page? If not, please do so, you can learn quite a bit there. > The openness is heart of the Open Source developement model, an open > file format and an open source csv are not enough. > > # Will be there another fork()? I am sure there will be. I fail to see how this is related to a fork. I'm absolutely sure that the problem you have (too many issues remain unfixed) will not be solved by a fork, it will become even worse. As experience shows additional developers in most cases are interested in implementing features, not fixing bugs. Regards, Mathias -- Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't reply to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]". I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[dev] Re: [marketing] Re: [project leads] Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Community Mapping Project
Hi, What i found from openoffice.org site that group working behind is concentrated in one part of world. They are not willing to come out of that. We have tried to contact so many time regarding adding ourself in directory for service provider/consultant/training provider for openoffice.org but response is zero. Vikram > Hi Andre, > > > Just a question : what does mean Developer for you exactly ? > > Looking at your map, I didn't found too much of people who commited > anything, and I seriously doubt this is a correct description of the > OpenOffice.org developers, but maybe I misunderstood the sense of the > word ... > > For me developers are the one who fix bugs, add new features .. > > > > Regards, > Eric Bachard > > > Le 30 oct. 08 à 12:57, André Schnabel a écrit : > >> Hi, >> >> Zaheda Bhorat schrieb: >>> >>> :-( We have only six community entries so far in our attempt to >>> create an OpenOffice.org community map. None of the entries >>> include developers. Our goal was to get off to a great start to >>> this project with many entries in time for OOoCon 2008 in Beijing >>> next week. >> >> Sometimes it might be better to use the resources that are already >> there instead of creating new ones: >> >> http://www.frappr.com/ooodev/map >> >> This has many of our developers and contributors.SOmewith short >> statements what they do here in the project. (Unfortunately most of >> the recent entries are spam) >> >> The curious thing about communities is that they grow where they >> like - and not when and where we like them to grow. >> >> André >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > > -- > qÉá´É¹É > > > > > -- Regards, Vikram Gaur IIRA Technologies +91-9871390284 = " Linux is ready for Mission Critical Computing" "Open Source & Linux gives efficiency, Freedom and Lower Total Cost of Ownership(TCO)" We at IIRA are committed to help you to attain efficiency, freedom and Lower TCO. We at IIRA are committed to help you to adopt Open Source and Linux in all your regular and mission critical operations. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[dev] ODF Workshop Agenda: November 6th @OpenOffice.org Conference
The OASIS ODF Adoption TC is pleased to announce the agenda for the ODF Workshop scheduled next Thursday, November 6th at the OpenOffice.org Conference in Beijing. Members of the OASIS ODF Adoption TC and the new OASIS ODF Interoperability and Conformance TC will meet and participate in a full day workshop on November 6, 2008 in Beijing. All interested participants are most welcome. Confirmed participants include: 1. Jeremy Alison 2. Zaheda Bhorat 3. Alan Clark 4. Bart Hanssens 5. Don Harbison 6. Niklas Nebel 7. Florian Reuter 8. Svante Schubert 9. Rob Weir 10. Oliver Wittmann The agenda will be as follows: 09:00 - 09:15 -- Introductions, Review of the Agenda (Rob Weir) 09:15 - 09:45 -- Keynote Presentation: The State of ODF Interoperability (Bart Hanssens) 10:00 -10:45 -- Interactive exercise on spreadsheet formula interoperability 10:45 -11:15 -- Break 11:15 - 12:00 -- Interactive exercise on spreadsheet formula interoperability, continued 12:00 -13:00 -- Lunch Break 13:00 -13:45 -- Presentation and Discussion: Considerations on Interoperability of ODF 1.2 Metadata (Svante Schubert?) 14:00 -14:45 -- Presentation on ODF/UOF Interoperability **tbd** 14:45 -15:15 -- Break 15:15 -16:00 -- Review and Interactive debugging of the the Challenge Piece (complex Chinese document) 16:15 -17:00 -- Review and Interactive debugging of the the Challenge Piece (complex Chinese document), continued. 17:15 -18:00 -- Closing Remarks, Summary of work remaining to be done. Regards, /don Don Harbison Program Director, IBM ODF Initiative Business & Technical Strategy IBM Software Group tel:1-978-399-7018 Mobile: +1-978-761-0116 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] Re: [marketing] Re: [project leads] Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Community Mapping Project
Hi Nguyen, Due to the big size, new comers will find it very hard to get started with OOo. Yes, it is true that it is not the easiest project to start with, but there are a lot of other examples as well, such as smart tags, overline of text, new notes and improved indexing in Writer, enhanced layouting of Kashida and Arabic text, improved numeric stability, enhanced pdf layout and a lot more, all done by the community. The main reason, IMO( again) is that, core coders of the OOo project is not willing to share the knowledge. This is just not true, and I guess you actually never really tried. When you ask for answers or help on the dev mailing lists, you get spot on answers most of the time on the same day. A lot of devs are also on IRC during European timezone, and I have read lots of offering in regards to mentoring of newcomers, so how do you come to your bold statement? In my case, I am trying to submit some bugs to OOo qa. Most of them are still there, marked as "NEW" Well, it is great you are submitting bugs, as otherwise noone would know about them. But there are a lot of other bugs as well and you have to have some way of prioritizing them. For some interesting remarks regarding this, see http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/why_all_issues_are_equal Regards Max - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] Re: [marketing] Re: [project leads] Re: [discuss] Re: OpenOffice.org Community Mapping Project
Hi Nguyen, *, this is starting to get off-topic, but well... On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Nguyen Vu Hung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In my very humble opinion, OpenOffice.org is not a truly open. It is. It is big and thus hard to get your hands on, but that doesn't depend on the "openness" of OOo. > Main coders is a team working in German and they work locally. > Language is not the problem but IMO this is what they want to do. This is not my experience (anymore, definitely was that way in the past, but not anymore). Developers hang out in IRC regularily (or if not, can be asked to join) and answer devel-related questions. They answer on the mailinglists as well. Of course if you don't ask at all, you don't get an answer. Of course if you ask on IRC where everyone in Europe is supposed to be sleeping, you'll probably not recieve any reply from one of the german developers. But that is again nothing related to the "openness" of the project, just people living in different parts of the world. > OOo is a very big project( 9.8 MLOC) and it is quite hard to add a new > feature, > or fix a bug. If a local team( or a contributor) shows a bug and tags > it WORK_FOR_ME( a stopper), "Works for me" means: Works fine, doesn't need a fix at all. So if you're waiting for a fix for an issue that was closed as "works for me", then you're waiting in vain. It will not be fixed unless you either make the ones who closed it change their mind (usually by discussing the problem on the appropriate mailinglist of the affected project) or provide a fix yourself (but if it is a bigger change, you should get in contact with the project first, to avoid conflicting and in the end wasted work) Again not related to the "openness" of the project, just a matter of common sense and restricted ressources. You just cannot fix anything. And of course it doesn't make sense at all to follow every request. (again common sense) > chances are they get fixed with very low probability. Due to the big size, > new comers will find it very hard to get started with OOo. This is nothing to blame on the "openness" of the project. >The main reason, IMO( again) is that, core coders of the OOo project is not >willing to share the knowledge. No, that's not the case. Plese give some *recent* examples. > In my case, I am trying to submit some bugs to OOo qa. Most of them > are still there, marked as "NEW" > and a questions pops up in in mind: How OOo treats contributors? How > QA works in OOo? Again: How is that related to the "openness" of the project? *Because* OOo is an open project and *everyone* can submit issues, the number of issues is very high. And compared to the number of issues the number of people who could fix things is rather low. Again common sense: If there are more issues that you (the developers) can handle, there must be issues that will remain unfixed/unhandled. But *because* OOo is an open project, *you* (the individual) can make a difference: You can reduce the number of issues by reviewing them, by consolidating related ones and maybe write a spec/proposal that combines multiple issues to save some work. Of if you have programming experience, you can fix a problem yourself and attach a patch. Patch handling has been much improved (despite the wrong facts that are spread in blogs or articles which are all based on the situation back in 2000/2002). If you have a patch and it wasn't touched/processed/evaluated within two weeks, make noise on IRC or on the mailinglists to have someone have a look at it. > The openness is heart of the Open Source developement model, an open > file format and an open source csv are not enough. Please state what of your points is related to OOo not being open. Your points are all based on the fact that OOo is big, has a big userbase and rather few active developers for the amount of requests made by those users. This is much different than saying: OOo is not open. ciao Christian - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
