Re: Re: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
FYI, Priti and I spoke earlier this week about exploring the addition of new "build" command for wskdeploy that could utilize Tekton. Kind regards, Matt From: "Michele Sciabarra" To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Date: 07/03/2019 12:06 PM Subject:[EXTERNAL] Re: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Well it is actually a bit more complex than this. If we use Tekton for building, it is Tekton the standard, so as long as we define a standard for input and output, we delegate to a tekton build the preparation of an image ready for being served by Knative Serving, However the action loop based runtimes rely on a "compilation" script already written in python that performs the steps, so all I need to do is to adapt the compilation to the Tekton standard. This is something I already did, at lest for Go, modifying the actionloop codee and I am now trying to complete the pipeline. The way I did for Go was not getting rid of the "init" step but providing an "autoinit" step that happens at runtime start, executing a binary executable already embedded in the image and produced by the compilation done by the runtime itself. All of this is more complex to say than to do so I hope I can show something soon... hopefully pretty interesting. --- Michele Sciabarra mich...@sciabarra.com PS the book "learning Apache OpenWhisk" is now on printing! - Original message - From: Matt Rutkowski To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Subject: Re: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Date: Wednesday, July 03, 2019 4:43 PM Hi Martin, It is my belief that Michele, now freshly returned from book editing (congrats), was going to implement the same interface for pre/post processing requests that we implemented for NodeJS. This would allow us a path to support this across all language runtimes as well as formalize our runtime contract that aligns with a Knative Service approach and then also allows us to better explore some of the use cases being discussed on another thread from Rodric. I believe that we should look at smaller steps towards that alignment like removing the need for the "init" entrypoint and allowing access to parameters either by env. vars. or function arguments allowing both compat. with 12-factor app approach, as well as attempting to encourage a functional programming model where you should ideally be unaware of any system environment. Kind regards, Matt From: Martin Henke To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Date: 07/03/2019 09:29 AM Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Michele, FYI: Sugandha and myself published a Medium blog article which describes to build Nodejs10 images using Tekton and run it on Knative (based on the work from Priti). It might be on interest in the context of your Actionloop related Knative work. Link: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_-40sugandha.agrawal18_build-2Dknative-2Dservice-2Dwith-2Dtekton-2Dand-2Dapache-2Dopenwhisk-2Dnode-2Djs-2Druntime-2Df660bbc3a11e&d=DwIFaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=6zQLM7Gc0Sv1iwayKOKa4_SFxRIxS478q2gZlAJj4Zw&m=bl7bwPaoiSE6fi0fyVHNC9bNUnh1ZUUlfl3lwUZbcH0&s=IQBGPfSTPiAjKhIlsqKDpAjoJBNd7By1YnjxOIx2454&e= Regards, Martin On 2019/05/20 15:00:02, "Michele Sciabarra" wrote: > Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas.> > > Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another action.> > > I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking the idea of using a "work-alike" path. > > > If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not necessary in the initial implementation.> > > Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that should be the preferred way.> > > Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API documented in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different API?> > > > -- > > Michele Sciabarra> > mich...@sciabarra.com> > > - Original message -> > From: "Markus Thömmes" > > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org> > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative> > Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM> > > Good discussion, thanks!> > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear> > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us.> > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a> > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no&
Re: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Well it is actually a bit more complex than this. If we use Tekton for building, it is Tekton the standard, so as long as we define a standard for input and output, we delegate to a tekton build the preparation of an image ready for being served by Knative Serving, However the action loop based runtimes rely on a "compilation" script already written in python that performs the steps, so all I need to do is to adapt the compilation to the Tekton standard. This is something I already did, at lest for Go, modifying the actionloop codee and I am now trying to complete the pipeline. The way I did for Go was not getting rid of the "init" step but providing an "autoinit" step that happens at runtime start, executing a binary executable already embedded in the image and produced by the compilation done by the runtime itself. All of this is more complex to say than to do so I hope I can show something soon... hopefully pretty interesting. --- Michele Sciabarra mich...@sciabarra.com PS the book "learning Apache OpenWhisk" is now on printing! - Original message - From: Matt Rutkowski To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Subject: Re: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Date: Wednesday, July 03, 2019 4:43 PM Hi Martin, It is my belief that Michele, now freshly returned from book editing (congrats), was going to implement the same interface for pre/post processing requests that we implemented for NodeJS. This would allow us a path to support this across all language runtimes as well as formalize our runtime contract that aligns with a Knative Service approach and then also allows us to better explore some of the use cases being discussed on another thread from Rodric. I believe that we should look at smaller steps towards that alignment like removing the need for the "init" entrypoint and allowing access to parameters either by env. vars. or function arguments allowing both compat. with 12-factor app approach, as well as attempting to encourage a functional programming model where you should ideally be unaware of any system environment. Kind regards, Matt From: Martin Henke To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Date: 07/03/2019 09:29 AM Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Michele, FYI: Sugandha and myself published a Medium blog article which describes to build Nodejs10 images using Tekton and run it on Knative (based on the work from Priti). It might be on interest in the context of your Actionloop related Knative work. Link: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_-40sugandha.agrawal18_build-2Dknative-2Dservice-2Dwith-2Dtekton-2Dand-2Dapache-2Dopenwhisk-2Dnode-2Djs-2Druntime-2Df660bbc3a11e&d=DwIFaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=6zQLM7Gc0Sv1iwayKOKa4_SFxRIxS478q2gZlAJj4Zw&m=bl7bwPaoiSE6fi0fyVHNC9bNUnh1ZUUlfl3lwUZbcH0&s=IQBGPfSTPiAjKhIlsqKDpAjoJBNd7By1YnjxOIx2454&e= Regards, Martin On 2019/05/20 15:00:02, "Michele Sciabarra" wrote: > Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas.> > > Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another action.> > > I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking the idea of using a "work-alike" path. > > > If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not necessary in the initial implementation.> > > Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that should be the preferred way.> > > Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API documented in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different API?> > > > -- > > Michele Sciabarra> > mich...@sciabarra.com> > > - Original message -> > From: "Markus Thömmes" > > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org> > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative> > Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM> > > Good discussion, thanks!> > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear> > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us.> > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a> > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no> > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane> > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks> > like:> > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a> > piece of code on Knative.> > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call u
Re: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Hi Matt, I fully agree with your thoughts. We should definitely (stepwise) aim for an unified model for all runtimes. Regards, Martin > On 3. Jul 2019, at 16:43, Matt Rutkowski wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > It is my belief that Michele, now freshly returned from book editing > (congrats), was going to implement the same interface for pre/post > processing requests that we implemented for NodeJS. This would allow us a > path to support this across all language runtimes as well as formalize our > runtime contract that aligns with a Knative Service approach and then also > allows us to better explore some of the use cases being discussed on > another thread from Rodric. I believe that we should look at smaller > steps towards that alignment like removing the need for the "init" > entrypoint and allowing access to parameters either by env. vars. or > function arguments allowing both compat. with 12-factor app approach, as > well as attempting to encourage a functional programming model where you > should ideally be unaware of any system environment. > > Kind regards, > Matt > > > > > From: Martin Henke > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org > Date: 07/03/2019 09:29 AM > Subject:[EXTERNAL] Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top > of Knative > > > > Michele, > > FYI: Sugandha and myself published a Medium blog article which describes > to build Nodejs10 images using Tekton and run it on Knative > (based on the work from Priti). > It might be on interest in the context of your Actionloop related Knative > work. > > Link: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_-40sugandha.agrawal18_build-2Dknative-2Dservice-2Dwith-2Dtekton-2Dand-2Dapache-2Dopenwhisk-2Dnode-2Djs-2Druntime-2Df660bbc3a11e&d=DwIFaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=6zQLM7Gc0Sv1iwayKOKa4_SFxRIxS478q2gZlAJj4Zw&m=bl7bwPaoiSE6fi0fyVHNC9bNUnh1ZUUlfl3lwUZbcH0&s=IQBGPfSTPiAjKhIlsqKDpAjoJBNd7By1YnjxOIx2454&e= > > > > Regards, > Martin > > > On 2019/05/20 15:00:02, "Michele Sciabarra" wrote: >> Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas.> >> >> Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and > invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another > action.> >> >> I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking > the idea of using a "work-alike" path. > >> >> If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not > necessary in the initial implementation.> >> >> Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that > should be the preferred way.> >> >> Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API > documented in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different > API?> >> >> >> -- > >> Michele Sciabarra> >> mich...@sciabarra.com> >> >> - Original message -> >> From: "Markus Thömmes" > >> To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org> >> Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative> >> Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM> >> >> Good discussion, thanks!> >> >> Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit > unclear> >> what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us.> >> >> To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on > a> >> Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's > no> >> good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control > plane> >> and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal > looks> >> like:> >> >> 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a> > >> piece of code on Knative.> >> 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" > that> >> action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really> > >> want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also > do> >> that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService).> >> >> Cheers,> >> Markus> >> >> Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke > >>> :> >> >>>> >>>> On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra > >>> wrote:> >>>>> >>>>> Michele,> >>>>
Re: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Hi Martin, It is my belief that Michele, now freshly returned from book editing (congrats), was going to implement the same interface for pre/post processing requests that we implemented for NodeJS. This would allow us a path to support this across all language runtimes as well as formalize our runtime contract that aligns with a Knative Service approach and then also allows us to better explore some of the use cases being discussed on another thread from Rodric. I believe that we should look at smaller steps towards that alignment like removing the need for the "init" entrypoint and allowing access to parameters either by env. vars. or function arguments allowing both compat. with 12-factor app approach, as well as attempting to encourage a functional programming model where you should ideally be unaware of any system environment. Kind regards, Matt From: Martin Henke To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Date: 07/03/2019 09:29 AM Subject:[EXTERNAL] Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Michele, FYI: Sugandha and myself published a Medium blog article which describes to build Nodejs10 images using Tekton and run it on Knative (based on the work from Priti). It might be on interest in the context of your Actionloop related Knative work. Link: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__medium.com_-40sugandha.agrawal18_build-2Dknative-2Dservice-2Dwith-2Dtekton-2Dand-2Dapache-2Dopenwhisk-2Dnode-2Djs-2Druntime-2Df660bbc3a11e&d=DwIFaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=6zQLM7Gc0Sv1iwayKOKa4_SFxRIxS478q2gZlAJj4Zw&m=bl7bwPaoiSE6fi0fyVHNC9bNUnh1ZUUlfl3lwUZbcH0&s=IQBGPfSTPiAjKhIlsqKDpAjoJBNd7By1YnjxOIx2454&e= Regards, Martin On 2019/05/20 15:00:02, "Michele Sciabarra" wrote: > Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas.> > > Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another action.> > > I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking the idea of using a "work-alike" path. > > > If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not necessary in the initial implementation.> > > Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that should be the preferred way.> > > Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API documented in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different API?> > > > -- > > Michele Sciabarra> > mich...@sciabarra.com> > > ----- Original message -> > From: "Markus Thömmes" > > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org> > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative> > Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM> > > Good discussion, thanks!> > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear> > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us.> > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a> > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no> > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane> > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks> > like:> > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a> > piece of code on Knative.> > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" that> > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really> > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do> > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService).> > > Cheers,> > Markus> > > Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke > >:> > > >> > > > On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra > > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> Michele,> > > >> > > >> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on> > > Knative.> > > >>> > > >> My thoughts on this:> > > >> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative> > > instead of just using Knative service syntax.> > > > Can you elaborate this? I do not understand.> > >> > > Knative service syntax:https:// > > action)>../> > > OW invocation https://> > > /api/v1/namespaces//actions/> > >> > > (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but> > > as said I wo
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Cool!!! Regards Sugandha Agrawal On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 4:37 PM Michele Sciabarra wrote: > Thanks! Indeed it was my next step since I am now trying to build actions > with the actionloop based runtime with tekton. I thought to use Priti work > that has to be updated to use Tekton so your article is very welcome and > useful. > > -- > Michele Sciabarra > mich...@sciabarra.com > > - Original message - > From: Martin Henke > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative > Date: Wednesday, July 03, 2019 4:29 PM > > Michele, > > FYI: Sugandha and myself published a Medium blog article which describes > to build Nodejs10 images using Tekton and run it on Knative > (based on the work from Priti). > It might be on interest in the context of your Actionloop related Knative > work. > > Link: > > https://medium.com/@sugandha.agrawal18/build-knative-service-with-tekton-and-apache-openwhisk-node-js-runtime-f660bbc3a11e > > Regards, > Martin > > > On 2019/05/20 15:00:02, "Michele Sciabarra" wrote: > > Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas.> > > > > Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and > invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another > action.> > > > > I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking > the idea of using a "work-alike" path. > > > > > If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not > necessary in the initial implementation.> > > > > Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that > should be the preferred way.> > > > > Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API > documented in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different > API?> > > > > > > -- > > > Michele Sciabarra> > > mich...@sciabarra.com> > > > > - Original message -> > > From: "Markus Thömmes" > > > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org> > > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative> > > Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM> > > > > Good discussion, thanks!> > > > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit > unclear> > > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us.> > > > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on > a> > > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's > no> > > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control > plane> > > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal > looks> > > like:> > > > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a> > > piece of code on Knative.> > > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" > that> > > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really> > > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also > do> > > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService).> > > > > Cheers,> > > Markus> > > > > Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke < > martin.he...@web.de> > > >:> > > > > >> > > > > On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra > > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> Michele,> > > > >> > > > >> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be > runnable on> > > > Knative.> > > > >>> > > > >> My thoughts on this:> > > > >> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto > Knative> > > > instead of just using Knative service syntax.> > > > > Can you elaborate this? I do not understand.> > > >> > > > Knative service syntax:https:// > > > action)>../> > > > OW invocation https://> > > > /api/v1/namespaces//actions/> > > >> > > > (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, > but> > > > as said I would see that as a valid optional feature)> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind > of a> > > > minority choice for Knative load balancing> &
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Thanks! Indeed it was my next step since I am now trying to build actions with the actionloop based runtime with tekton. I thought to use Priti work that has to be updated to use Tekton so your article is very welcome and useful. -- Michele Sciabarra mich...@sciabarra.com - Original message - From: Martin Henke To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Date: Wednesday, July 03, 2019 4:29 PM Michele, FYI: Sugandha and myself published a Medium blog article which describes to build Nodejs10 images using Tekton and run it on Knative (based on the work from Priti). It might be on interest in the context of your Actionloop related Knative work. Link: https://medium.com/@sugandha.agrawal18/build-knative-service-with-tekton-and-apache-openwhisk-node-js-runtime-f660bbc3a11e Regards, Martin On 2019/05/20 15:00:02, "Michele Sciabarra" wrote: > Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas.> > > Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and > invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another > action.> > > I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking the > idea of using a "work-alike" path. > > > If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not necessary in > the initial implementation.> > > Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that > should be the preferred way.> > > Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API documented > in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different API?> > > > -- > > Michele Sciabarra> > mich...@sciabarra.com> > > ----- Original message -> > From: "Markus Thömmes" > > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org> > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative> > Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM> > > Good discussion, thanks!> > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear> > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us.> > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a> > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no> > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane> > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks> > like:> > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a> > piece of code on Knative.> > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" that> > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really> > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do> > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService).> > > Cheers,> > Markus> > > Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke > >:> > > >> > > > On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra > > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> Michele,> > > >> > > >> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on> > > Knative.> > > >>> > > >> My thoughts on this:> > > >> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative> > > instead of just using Knative service syntax.> > > > Can you elaborate this? I do not understand.> > >> > > Knative service syntax:https:// > > action)>../> > > OW invocation https://> > > /api/v1/namespaces//actions/> > >> > > (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but> > > as said I would see that as a valid optional feature)> > >> > > >> > > >> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a> > > minority choice for Knative load balancing> > > > I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do> > > not want to be limited to Gloo.> > >> > > I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an> > > “official” OW on Knative flow.> > > It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your> > > prototype.> > >> > > > - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for> > > ActionLoop based runtimes> > > >> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrate
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Michele, FYI: Sugandha and myself published a Medium blog article which describes to build Nodejs10 images using Tekton and run it on Knative (based on the work from Priti). It might be on interest in the context of your Actionloop related Knative work. Link: https://medium.com/@sugandha.agrawal18/build-knative-service-with-tekton-and-apache-openwhisk-node-js-runtime-f660bbc3a11e Regards, Martin On 2019/05/20 15:00:02, "Michele Sciabarra" wrote: > Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas.> > > Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and > invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another > action.> > > I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking the > idea of using a "work-alike" path. > > > If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not necessary in > the initial implementation.> > > Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that > should be the preferred way.> > > Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API documented > in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different API?> > > > -- > > Michele Sciabarra> > mich...@sciabarra.com> > > ----- Original message -> > From: "Markus Thömmes" > > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org> > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative> > Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM> > > Good discussion, thanks!> > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear> > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us.> > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a> > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no> > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane> > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks> > like:> > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a> > piece of code on Knative.> > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" that> > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really> > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do> > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService).> > > Cheers,> > Markus> > > Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke > >:> > > >> > > > On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra > > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> Michele,> > > >> > > >> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on> > > Knative.> > > >>> > > >> My thoughts on this:> > > >> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative> > > instead of just using Knative service syntax.> > > > Can you elaborate this? I do not understand.> > >> > > Knative service syntax:https:// > > action)>../> > > OW invocation https://> > > /api/v1/namespaces//actions/> > >> > > (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but> > > as said I would see that as a valid optional feature)> > >> > > >> > > >> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a> > > minority choice for Knative load balancing> > > > I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do> > > not want to be limited to Gloo.> > >> > > I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an> > > “official” OW on Knative flow.> > > It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your> > > prototype.> > >> > > > - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for> > > ActionLoop based runtimes> > > >> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt> > > and Priti> > > > As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building> > > and exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong.> > > > The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the> > > frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, while > > I> > > would like to implemeent the "invocati
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Thanks for taking the time to do this POC Michele. I'm looking forward for learn about the cold-start times with KNative. On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 8:48 AM Michele Sciabarra wrote: > I am taking all the suggestions and trying to setup a first implementation. > > > -- > Michele Sciabarra > mich...@sciabarra.com > > - Original message - > From: James Thomas > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative > Date: Friday, May 24, 2019 5:39 PM > > On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 15:50, Markus Thömmes > wrote: > > > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear > > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us. > > > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a > > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's > no > > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control > plane > > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks > > like: > > > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a > > piece of code on Knative. > > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" > that > > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really > > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do > > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService). > > I've been spending a bit more time reading up on knative this week and > agree with Markus' suggestions. In the short term, being able to run > an OpenWhisk action on Knative with no changes to the action code is a > good first step. I think the work Priti has done with others to make > the Node.js runtime Knative compatible is a sensible step towards > this. ( > https://github.com/apache/incubator-openwhisk-runtime-nodejs/pull/119) > If we can utilise that approach with the actionloop runtimes - that'd > be great. > > This means people can move (simple) OpenWhisk actions from a platform > instance to knative with minimal changes. Having a defined build > pipeline to produce docker images from action code seems like the next > step... The user has to do this manually but it simplifies the process > of building those images manually. > > The longer-term discussion is whether we allow people to use the > existing OpenWhisk API (and tools) as a proxy for actions deployed on > knative. This would means people can switch their clients (CLI) > between a normal openwhisk instance and a knative-based one.. This > would be similiar to how projects like Riff operate. > > Gloo does have some interesting concepts around "function level" > routing that are building out that might be useful > (https://gloo.solo.io/user_guides/cloud_function/) > > > -- > Regards, > James Thomas >
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
I am taking all the suggestions and trying to setup a first implementation. -- Michele Sciabarra mich...@sciabarra.com - Original message - From: James Thomas To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Date: Friday, May 24, 2019 5:39 PM On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 15:50, Markus Thömmes wrote: > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us. > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks > like: > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a > piece of code on Knative. > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" that > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService). I've been spending a bit more time reading up on knative this week and agree with Markus' suggestions. In the short term, being able to run an OpenWhisk action on Knative with no changes to the action code is a good first step. I think the work Priti has done with others to make the Node.js runtime Knative compatible is a sensible step towards this. (https://github.com/apache/incubator-openwhisk-runtime-nodejs/pull/119) If we can utilise that approach with the actionloop runtimes - that'd be great. This means people can move (simple) OpenWhisk actions from a platform instance to knative with minimal changes. Having a defined build pipeline to produce docker images from action code seems like the next step... The user has to do this manually but it simplifies the process of building those images manually. The longer-term discussion is whether we allow people to use the existing OpenWhisk API (and tools) as a proxy for actions deployed on knative. This would means people can switch their clients (CLI) between a normal openwhisk instance and a knative-based one.. This would be similiar to how projects like Riff operate. Gloo does have some interesting concepts around "function level" routing that are building out that might be useful (https://gloo.solo.io/user_guides/cloud_function/) -- Regards, James Thomas
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 15:50, Markus Thömmes wrote: > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us. > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks > like: > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a > piece of code on Knative. > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" that > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService). I've been spending a bit more time reading up on knative this week and agree with Markus' suggestions. In the short term, being able to run an OpenWhisk action on Knative with no changes to the action code is a good first step. I think the work Priti has done with others to make the Node.js runtime Knative compatible is a sensible step towards this. (https://github.com/apache/incubator-openwhisk-runtime-nodejs/pull/119) If we can utilise that approach with the actionloop runtimes - that'd be great. This means people can move (simple) OpenWhisk actions from a platform instance to knative with minimal changes. Having a defined build pipeline to produce docker images from action code seems like the next step... The user has to do this manually but it simplifies the process of building those images manually. The longer-term discussion is whether we allow people to use the existing OpenWhisk API (and tools) as a proxy for actions deployed on knative. This would means people can switch their clients (CLI) between a normal openwhisk instance and a knative-based one.. This would be similiar to how projects like Riff operate. Gloo does have some interesting concepts around "function level" routing that are building out that might be useful (https://gloo.solo.io/user_guides/cloud_function/) -- Regards, James Thomas
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Thanks for bringing up Tekton; I was going to suggest taking a look at it since knative was brought up. I'd definitely recommend that over knative-build as it's getting a lot more attention from external contributors from other related projects like Jenkins X, GCP, etc. On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 10:12, Michele Sciabarra wrote: > > >>> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative > >>> instead of just using Knative service syntax. > >> Can you elaborate this? I do not understand. > > >Knative service syntax:https:// >action)>../ > >OW invocation > >https:///api/v1/namespaces//actions/ > >(I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but as > >said I would see that as a valid optional feature) > > Understood, thx! Well I need to setup a wildcard domain to work with this > locally I see... > Anyway it is a good idea to do this. > > > > >> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a > >> minority choice for Knative load balancing > > I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do not > > want to be limited to Gloo. > > >I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an > >“official” OW on Knative flow. > >It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your > >prototype. > > No it will not. My concern is to make something easy to setup. Kubernetes is > already hard enough. > > > > - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for > > ActionLoop based runtimes > >> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt and > >> Priti > > As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building and > > exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong. > > The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the > > frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, while I > > would like to implemeent the "invocation" straight in the runtime. This is > > open to discussion, but of course it is better to reach an agreement. > > >Also in the work of Priti and Matt the invocation goes directly to the > >runtime. The action code is either passed with the call (not >yet tested by > >me) or set via environment variable in the docker build. > But if we use Tekton... hmmm > > > > >> - As Knative Build seems be on a dead end I would propose to target Tekton > >> as the build system (which developed as kind of >successor out of Knative) > > > > If Knative build is dead then it would be a bit unfair that they change it > > as the scope of the Knative project! > > It looks like the goal is to setup some standards! And I would be very > > disappointed to know that. > > >Tekton evolved out of Knative Build (or more correct out of Knative > >Pipelines) but is very similar to the Knative build. > >Flows can easily be ported from one to the other, > >If we target Tekton build we would target the platform were the Knative > >build team is focusing on. > >But again feel free to use whatever platform for your prototype work. > > From a quick check looks like Tekton is actually the way to go. Sadly it was > not clear reading the documentation. > > > At this stage the build is the more interesting thing, and it could be even > > imported in main openwhisk to speed up deployment. > > I have already baked it in the ActionLoop runtimes (with precompilation). > > Also if we use Tekton, where is the Knative standard then? What is the > > point? We can build our own system instead of "Knativizing" it... > > > >> Maybe it would be a good solution to tackle two things independently. > >> 1) Design and implement a common protocol of building, running and calling > >> OW runtimes on Knative > >> 2) Implement the OW invocation API on top of Knative as an additional > >> option for those who have the need to expose it. > > > > On this, for my personal approach at building things, I want something that > > works and it is complete and useful. A "MVP”. > > Cool. Just go on. > > > So I do not plan to split the effort. Version 0.1 must be a minimal working > > subset of OpenWhisk on Knative. > > Because otherwise there will be incomplete useless inusable pieces around > > (see for example kwsk). > > > > It does not mean that things cannot be modular, nor that everyone must but > > to me "openwhisk-knative" must be a single repo with all the pieces to make > > something where you can download is and deploy in a kubernetes cluster and > > be able to deploy simple actions. When this works, we can improve > > incrementally and split it but keeping it working. > > > >> I would looking forward to work with you on the first work item. > > Great but I see now more details to discuss before we can start. Most > > notably I need to understand how I can build on top of Mark and Priti work > > and continue their work. ANd I can even probably recover some of the code > > of kwsk as they implemented some op
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
>>> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative >>> instead of just using Knative service syntax. >> Can you elaborate this? I do not understand. >Knative service syntax:https://action)>../ >OW invocation https:///api/v1/namespaces//actions/ >(I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but as >said I would see that as a valid optional feature) Understood, thx! Well I need to setup a wildcard domain to work with this locally I see... Anyway it is a good idea to do this. > >> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a >> minority choice for Knative load balancing > I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do not > want to be limited to Gloo. >I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an >“official” OW on Knative flow. >It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your prototype. No it will not. My concern is to make something easy to setup. Kubernetes is already hard enough. > - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for > ActionLoop based runtimes >> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt and >> Priti > As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building and > exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong. > The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the > frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, while I > would like to implemeent the "invocation" straight in the runtime. This is > open to discussion, but of course it is better to reach an agreement. >Also in the work of Priti and Matt the invocation goes directly to the >runtime. The action code is either passed with the call (not >yet tested by >me) or set via environment variable in the docker build. But if we use Tekton... hmmm > >> - As Knative Build seems be on a dead end I would propose to target Tekton >> as the build system (which developed as kind of >successor out of Knative) > > If Knative build is dead then it would be a bit unfair that they change it as > the scope of the Knative project! > It looks like the goal is to setup some standards! And I would be very > disappointed to know that. >Tekton evolved out of Knative Build (or more correct out of Knative Pipelines) >but is very similar to the Knative build. >Flows can easily be ported from one to the other, >If we target Tekton build we would target the platform were the Knative build >team is focusing on. >But again feel free to use whatever platform for your prototype work. >From a quick check looks like Tekton is actually the way to go. Sadly it was >not clear reading the documentation. > At this stage the build is the more interesting thing, and it could be even > imported in main openwhisk to speed up deployment. > I have already baked it in the ActionLoop runtimes (with precompilation). > Also if we use Tekton, where is the Knative standard then? What is the point? > We can build our own system instead of "Knativizing" it... > >> Maybe it would be a good solution to tackle two things independently. >> 1) Design and implement a common protocol of building, running and calling >> OW runtimes on Knative >> 2) Implement the OW invocation API on top of Knative as an additional option >> for those who have the need to expose it. > > On this, for my personal approach at building things, I want something that > works and it is complete and useful. A "MVP”. Cool. Just go on. > So I do not plan to split the effort. Version 0.1 must be a minimal working > subset of OpenWhisk on Knative. > Because otherwise there will be incomplete useless inusable pieces around > (see for example kwsk). > > It does not mean that things cannot be modular, nor that everyone must but to > me "openwhisk-knative" must be a single repo with all the pieces to make > something where you can download is and deploy in a kubernetes cluster and be > able to deploy simple actions. When this works, we can improve incrementally > and split it but keeping it working. > >> I would looking forward to work with you on the first work item. > Great but I see now more details to discuss before we can start. Most > notably I need to understand how I can build on top of Mark and Priti work > and continue their work. ANd I can even probably recover some of the code of > kwsk as they implemented some openwhisk api, that I want now in the runtime. > >I do not want to stop you in any way. My hope is that the action loop runtimes >and the “other ones” do expose the same >behaviour when being called. So that >the users is not surprised when calling different actions in different >languages. >And behaving the same way might also mean to adapt the “other languages” to >the same behaviour as the action loop based >ones. >They just should be uniform to be used. >When your prototype is acces
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
For background: Tekton has emerged out of the former Knative Build-Pipelines project. The Build API connection will be dropped in Serving v1beta1. Tekton is the way to go if any. Cheers, Markus Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 17:03 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke : > Tekton is different but very very similar. You get a lot of DejaVus. No > big learning Curve. > > Martin > > > > On 20. May 2019, at 17:00, Michele Sciabarra > wrote: > > > > Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas. > > > > Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and > invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another > action. > > > > I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking > the idea of using a "work-alike" path. > > > > If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not > necessary in the initial implementation. > > > > Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that > should be the preferred way. > > > > Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API > documented in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different API? > > > > > > -- > > Michele Sciabarra > > mich...@sciabarra.com > > > > - Original message - > > From: "Markus Thömmes" > > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org > > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative > > Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM > > > > Good discussion, thanks! > > > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear > > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us. > > > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a > > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's > no > > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control > plane > > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks > > like: > > > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a > > piece of code on Knative. > > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" > that > > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really > > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do > > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService). > > > > Cheers, > > Markus > > > > Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke < > martin.he...@web.de > >> : > > > >> > >>> On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Michele, > >>> > >>>> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable > on > >> Knative. > >>>> > >>>> My thoughts on this: > >>>> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative > >> instead of just using Knative service syntax. > >>> Can you elaborate this? I do not understand. > >> > >> Knative service syntax:https:// >> action)>../ > >> OW invocation https:// > >> /api/v1/namespaces//actions/ > >> > >> (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but > >> as said I would see that as a valid optional feature) > >> > >>> > >>>> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of > a > >> minority choice for Knative load balancing > >>> I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do > >> not want to be limited to Gloo. > >> > >> I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an > >> “official” OW on Knative flow. > >> It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your > >> prototype. > >> > >>> - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for > >> ActionLoop based runtimes > >>>> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt > >> and Priti > >>> As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building > >> and exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong. > >>> The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the > >> frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, > while I > >> wo
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Tekton is different but very very similar. You get a lot of DejaVus. No big learning Curve. Martin > On 20. May 2019, at 17:00, Michele Sciabarra wrote: > > Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas. > > Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and > invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another > action. > > I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking the > idea of using a "work-alike" path. > > If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not necessary in > the initial implementation. > > Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that > should be the preferred way. > > Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API documented > in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different API? > > > -- > Michele Sciabarra > mich...@sciabarra.com > > ----- Original message - > From: "Markus Thömmes" > To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org > Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative > Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM > > Good discussion, thanks! > > Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear > what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us. > > To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a > Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no > good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane > and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks > like: > > 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a > piece of code on Knative. > 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" that > action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really > want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do > that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService). > > Cheers, > Markus > > Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke > : > >> >>> On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra >> wrote: >>> >>>> Michele, >>> >>>> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on >> Knative. >>>> >>>> My thoughts on this: >>>> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative >> instead of just using Knative service syntax. >>> Can you elaborate this? I do not understand. >> >> Knative service syntax:https://> action)>../ >> OW invocation https:// >> /api/v1/namespaces//actions/ >> >> (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but >> as said I would see that as a valid optional feature) >> >>> >>>> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a >> minority choice for Knative load balancing >>> I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do >> not want to be limited to Gloo. >> >> I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an >> “official” OW on Knative flow. >> It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your >> prototype. >> >>> - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for >> ActionLoop based runtimes >>>> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt >> and Priti >>> As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building >> and exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong. >>> The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the >> frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, while I >> would like to implemeent the "invocation" straight in the runtime. This is >> open to discussion, but of course it is better to reach an agreement. >> >> Also in the work of Priti and Matt the invocation goes directly to the >> runtime. The action code is either passed with the call (not yet tested by >> me) or set via environment variable in the docker build. >> >>> >>>> - As Knative Build seems be on a dead end I would propose to target >> Tekton as the build system (which developed as kind of >successor out of >> Knative) >>> >>> If Knative build is dead then it would be a bit unfair that they change >> it as the scope of the Knative project! >
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Ok great, I see the discussion is starting to bring ideas. Yes my goal is basically to run existing actions in Knative, create and invoke. And possibile retain the ability of an action to invoke another action. I understand the different way they expose services, so I am rethinking the idea of using a "work-alike" path. If it is needed we can add it with an ingress but it may be not necessary in the initial implementation. Also I checked a bit ML and discussions and I see this Tekton thing that should be the preferred way. Not sure if I understand the relation with the current Build API documented in the website. Is Tekton "compatible" or it has a different API? -- Michele Sciabarra mich...@sciabarra.com - Original message - From: "Markus Thömmes" To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 4:50 PM Good discussion, thanks! Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us. To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks like: 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a piece of code on Knative. 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" that action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService). Cheers, Markus Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke : > > > On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra > wrote: > > > >> Michele, > > > >> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on > Knative. > >> > >> My thoughts on this: > >> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative > instead of just using Knative service syntax. > > Can you elaborate this? I do not understand. > > Knative service syntax:https:// action)>../ > OW invocation https:// > /api/v1/namespaces//actions/ > > (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but > as said I would see that as a valid optional feature) > > > > >> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a > minority choice for Knative load balancing > > I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do > not want to be limited to Gloo. > > I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an > “official” OW on Knative flow. > It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your > prototype. > > > - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for > ActionLoop based runtimes > >> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt > and Priti > > As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building > and exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong. > > The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the > frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, while I > would like to implemeent the "invocation" straight in the runtime. This is > open to discussion, but of course it is better to reach an agreement. > > Also in the work of Priti and Matt the invocation goes directly to the > runtime. The action code is either passed with the call (not yet tested by > me) or set via environment variable in the docker build. > > > > >> - As Knative Build seems be on a dead end I would propose to target > Tekton as the build system (which developed as kind of >successor out of > Knative) > > > > If Knative build is dead then it would be a bit unfair that they change > it as the scope of the Knative project! > > It looks like the goal is to setup some standards! And I would be very > disappointed to know that. > > Tekton evolved out of Knative Build (or more correct out of Knative > Pipelines) but is very similar to the Knative build. > Flows can easily be ported from one to the other, > If we target Tekton build we would target the platform were the Knative > build team is focusing on. > But again feel free to use whatever platform for your prototype work. > > > At this stage the build is the more interesting thing, and it could be > even imported in main openwhisk to speed up deployment. > > I hav
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Good discussion, thanks! Can we try to define what the desired end-goal is here? I'm a bit unclear what resembling the OpenWhisk API actually buys us. To me, the desired end-state would be to run OpenWhisk actions as-is on a Knative cluster (similar to OpenFaaS' and Azure's integration). There's no good way for us to provide the full API without spinning up a control plane and we can only handle so much via the CLI. So to me, the end-goal looks like: 1. *wsk action create* actually doing all the pieces necessary to run a piece of code on Knative. 2. *wsk action invoke* doing some HTTP call under the hood to "invoke" that action. The action should be reachable via a sensible URL. If we really want to keep the API surface (as I said, I'm dubious here) we can also do that via ingress level abstractions (like VirtualService). Cheers, Markus Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 15:33 Uhr schrieb Martin Henke : > > > On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra > wrote: > > > >> Michele, > > > >> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on > Knative. > >> > >> My thoughts on this: > >> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative > instead of just using Knative service syntax. > > Can you elaborate this? I do not understand. > > Knative service syntax:https:// action)>../ > OW invocation https:// > /api/v1/namespaces//actions/ > > (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but > as said I would see that as a valid optional feature) > > > > >> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a > minority choice for Knative load balancing > > I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do > not want to be limited to Gloo. > > I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an > “official” OW on Knative flow. > It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your > prototype. > > > - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for > ActionLoop based runtimes > >> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt > and Priti > > As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building > and exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong. > > The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the > frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, while I > would like to implemeent the "invocation" straight in the runtime. This is > open to discussion, but of course it is better to reach an agreement. > > Also in the work of Priti and Matt the invocation goes directly to the > runtime. The action code is either passed with the call (not yet tested by > me) or set via environment variable in the docker build. > > > > >> - As Knative Build seems be on a dead end I would propose to target > Tekton as the build system (which developed as kind of >successor out of > Knative) > > > > If Knative build is dead then it would be a bit unfair that they change > it as the scope of the Knative project! > > It looks like the goal is to setup some standards! And I would be very > disappointed to know that. > > Tekton evolved out of Knative Build (or more correct out of Knative > Pipelines) but is very similar to the Knative build. > Flows can easily be ported from one to the other, > If we target Tekton build we would target the platform were the Knative > build team is focusing on. > But again feel free to use whatever platform for your prototype work. > > > At this stage the build is the more interesting thing, and it could be > even imported in main openwhisk to speed up deployment. > > I have already baked it in the ActionLoop runtimes (with precompilation). > > Also if we use Tekton, where is the Knative standard then? What is the > point? We can build our own system instead of "Knativizing" it... > > > >> Maybe it would be a good solution to tackle two things independently. > >> 1) Design and implement a common protocol of building, running and > calling OW runtimes on Knative > >> 2) Implement the OW invocation API on top of Knative as an additional > option for those who have the need to expose it. > > > > On this, for my personal approach at building things, I want something > that works and it is complete and useful. A "MVP”. > > Cool. Just go on. > > > So I do not plan to split the effort. Version 0.1 must be a minimal > working subset of OpenWhisk on Knative. > > Because otherwise there will be incomplete useless inusable pieces > around (see for example kwsk). > > > > It does not mean that things cannot be modular, nor that everyone must > but to me "openwhisk-knative" must be a single repo with all the pieces to > make something where you can download is and deploy in a kubernetes cluster > and be able to deploy simple actions. When this works, we can improve > incrementally and split it but keeping it working. > > > >> I would looking forward to work with you on the first
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
> On 20. May 2019, at 14:55, Michele Sciabarra wrote: > >> Michele, > >> I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on >> Knative. >> >> My thoughts on this: >> - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative >> instead of just using Knative service syntax. > Can you elaborate this? I do not understand. Knative service syntax:https://../ OW invocation https:///api/v1/namespaces//actions/ (I personally so no worth in inventing a distinct API for OW images, but as said I would see that as a valid optional feature) > >> - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a >> minority choice for Knative load balancing > I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do not > want to be limited to Gloo. I just wanted to prevent that Gloo gets a “official” prerequisite for an “official” OW on Knative flow. It is of course free to you to use what ever you want to do in your prototype. > - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for > ActionLoop based runtimes >> and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt and >> Priti > As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building and > exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong. > The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the > frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, while I > would like to implemeent the "invocation" straight in the runtime. This is > open to discussion, but of course it is better to reach an agreement. Also in the work of Priti and Matt the invocation goes directly to the runtime. The action code is either passed with the call (not yet tested by me) or set via environment variable in the docker build. > >> - As Knative Build seems be on a dead end I would propose to target Tekton >> as the build system (which developed as kind of >successor out of Knative) > > If Knative build is dead then it would be a bit unfair that they change it as > the scope of the Knative project! > It looks like the goal is to setup some standards! And I would be very > disappointed to know that. Tekton evolved out of Knative Build (or more correct out of Knative Pipelines) but is very similar to the Knative build. Flows can easily be ported from one to the other, If we target Tekton build we would target the platform were the Knative build team is focusing on. But again feel free to use whatever platform for your prototype work. > At this stage the build is the more interesting thing, and it could be even > imported in main openwhisk to speed up deployment. > I have already baked it in the ActionLoop runtimes (with precompilation). > Also if we use Tekton, where is the Knative standard then? What is the point? > We can build our own system instead of "Knativizing" it... > >> Maybe it would be a good solution to tackle two things independently. >> 1) Design and implement a common protocol of building, running and calling >> OW runtimes on Knative >> 2) Implement the OW invocation API on top of Knative as an additional option >> for those who have the need to expose it. > > On this, for my personal approach at building things, I want something that > works and it is complete and useful. A "MVP”. Cool. Just go on. > So I do not plan to split the effort. Version 0.1 must be a minimal working > subset of OpenWhisk on Knative. > Because otherwise there will be incomplete useless inusable pieces around > (see for example kwsk). > > It does not mean that things cannot be modular, nor that everyone must but to > me "openwhisk-knative" must be a single repo with all the pieces to make > something where you can download is and deploy in a kubernetes cluster and be > able to deploy simple actions. When this works, we can improve incrementally > and split it but keeping it working. > >> I would looking forward to work with you on the first work item. > Great but I see now more details to discuss before we can start. Most > notably I need to understand how I can build on top of Mark and Priti work > and continue their work. ANd I can even probably recover some of the code of > kwsk as they implemented some openwhisk api, that I want now in the runtime. > I do not want to stop you in any way. My hope is that the action loop runtimes and the “other ones” do expose the same behaviour when being called. So that the users is not surprised when calling different actions in different languages. And behaving the same way might also mean to adapt the “other languages” to the same behaviour as the action loop based ones. They just should be uniform to be used. When your prototype is accessible it would be a good point of time to discuss this. As said I very much like your effort. > >> On 20. May 2019, at 08:55, Michele Sciabarra wrote: >> >> I have an idea for implementing a prototype of OpenWhisk o
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Yes but... Knative is supposed to define some "standards" for bulding, serving and eventing. Also I do not look after any "decent" UI, building in OpenWhisk is (and must be) a hidden detail. You send the sources and run the image. ActionLoop images are already able to precompile. The difference would be that at init time I "build" basically creating an image from a runtime with an additional layer with the code of the action (compiled in case of go swift and rust) that can be automatically executed, with no delay of /init (images will "autoinit" with that code). I already implemented that in ActionLoop. This thing as I described is small enough that can be implemented in a reasonable amount of time, and it is fully "Knative" compliant. If I do not do it an "openwhisk on top of knative" I am wasting my time as the current OpenWhisk is already way better. I want just to create a "MVP" and from there understand if merging, replace or reuse the pieces. Unfortunately only when you have something that exists and works you are able to understand what to do next properly. -- Michele Sciabarra mich...@sciabarra.com - Original message - From: Martin Henke To: dev@openwhisk.apache.org Subject: Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 2:47 PM Bertrand, I am not directly involved in Knative Build or Tekton so I might be wrong on my dead end sentence. For what I got ,I think It was realised that a build pipeline on Kube and the task to build docker containers from a given source is a general problem to solve and in most ways independent from Knative. The good side on this that step is that Jenkins X (the next version of Jenkins) is embracing Tekton already as a runtime. So some would probably get a decent Build UI. Regards, Martin > On 20. May 2019, at 14:17, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 2:07 PM Martin Henke wrote: >> ...As Knative Build seems be on a dead end... > > Wow, already? That stuff seems to be competing with JavaScript > frameworks in terms of short lifetimes these days ;-) > > -Bertrand
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
>Michele, >I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on >Knative. > >My thoughts on this: >- I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative instead >of just using Knative service syntax. Can you elaborate this? I do not understand. >- I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a >minority choice for Knative load balancing I do not think it will be hard to setup a test also using Istio, I do not want to be limited to Gloo. - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for ActionLoop based runtimes >and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt and Priti As much as I can tell the current implementation is just the building and exposing the "/init" and "/run" but I can be wrong. The build can be of course reused, so it continues the effort. For the frontend, from the documentation I think Matt wants to add a proxy, while I would like to implemeent the "invocation" straight in the runtime. This is open to discussion, but of course it is better to reach an agreement. >- As Knative Build seems be on a dead end I would propose to target Tekton as >the build system (which developed as kind of >successor out of Knative) If Knative build is dead then it would be a bit unfair that they change it as the scope of the Knative project! It looks like the goal is to setup some standards! And I would be very disappointed to know that. At this stage the build is the more interesting thing, and it could be even imported in main openwhisk to speed up deployment. I have already baked it in the ActionLoop runtimes (with precompilation). Also if we use Tekton, where is the Knative standard then? What is the point? We can build our own system instead of "Knativizing" it... >Maybe it would be a good solution to tackle two things independently. >1) Design and implement a common protocol of building, running and calling OW >runtimes on Knative >2) Implement the OW invocation API on top of Knative as an additional option >for those who have the need to expose it. On this, for my personal approach at building things, I want something that works and it is complete and useful. A "MVP". So I do not plan to split the effort. Version 0.1 must be a minimal working subset of OpenWhisk on Knative. Because otherwise there will be incomplete useless inusable pieces around (see for example kwsk). It does not mean that things cannot be modular, nor that everyone must but to me "openwhisk-knative" must be a single repo with all the pieces to make something where you can download is and deploy in a kubernetes cluster and be able to deploy simple actions. When this works, we can improve incrementally and split it but keeping it working. >I would looking forward to work with you on the first work item. Great but I see now more details to discuss before we can start. Most notably I need to understand how I can build on top of Mark and Priti work and continue their work. ANd I can even probably recover some of the code of kwsk as they implemented some openwhisk api, that I want now in the runtime. > On 20. May 2019, at 08:55, Michele Sciabarra wrote: > > >>> I have an idea for implementing a prototype of OpenWhisk on top of Knative. >>> My basic ideas are: do not use any proxy, forwarding or adapter: extend >>> the runtime to support the REST call and expose them as ingress. And use a >>> wrapper on top of `kubectl` to generate all the needed components. > >> Does this tie into the work that Matt was doing to the runtimes to make >> them runnable on Knative? Is this lined up with that at all? > Actually yes. He suggested I can investigate how to migrate ActionLoop to > port many other languages to Knative. > Also he recommended I add my idea and this is what I am doing. Current code > is, if I am not wrong, a Knative build of the nodejs runtime. > > There has been a number of attempts and proposal to move forward OpenWhisk. > My idea that to succeed we need something small but that just works. This is > my idea to be able to implement in the shorter time frame possible an actual > subset of OpenWhisk that works and it is truly built on top of Knative. So I > am putting the thing a bit further than Matt work. > > >>> My goal is to have a functional work-alike of OpenWhisk built on top of >>> Knative, using ActionLoop as a foundation. I will extend ActionLoop to >>> support the required REST calls of OpenWhisk. >> >>> I also want to create tool, I will call `wskn`. This tool will initially >>> just a python script, a wrapper on top of `kubectl` as it will generate >>> kubernetes descriptors. >> Why not build this into "wsk" itself? The Azure Functions CLI as an example >> supports multiple deployment types like this in one CLI. > > When it will works, yes, of course. But to start, what I really need is a > prototype that can generate kubernetes descripttors to feed to kubectl
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Bertrand, I am not directly involved in Knative Build or Tekton so I might be wrong on my dead end sentence. For what I got ,I think It was realised that a build pipeline on Kube and the task to build docker containers from a given source is a general problem to solve and in most ways independent from Knative. The good side on this that step is that Jenkins X (the next version of Jenkins) is embracing Tekton already as a runtime. So some would probably get a decent Build UI. Regards, Martin > On 20. May 2019, at 14:17, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 2:07 PM Martin Henke wrote: >> ...As Knative Build seems be on a dead end... > > Wow, already? That stuff seems to be competing with JavaScript > frameworks in terms of short lifetimes these days ;-) > > -Bertrand
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 2:07 PM Martin Henke wrote: > ...As Knative Build seems be on a dead end... Wow, already? That stuff seems to be competing with JavaScript frameworks in terms of short lifetimes these days ;-) -Bertrand
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Michele, I like the idea to make the ActionLoop based runtimes to be runnable on Knative. My thoughts on this: - I second Markus concern to implement the invocation API onto Knative instead of just using Knative service syntax. - I would have concerns to make it dependent on Gloo which is kind of a minority choice for Knative load balancing - In my opinion the goal should be to have some uniform behaviour for ActionLoop based runtimes and other ones like the adapted NodeJS runtimes demonstrated by Matt and Priti - As Knative Build seems be on a dead end I would propose to target Tekton as the build system (which developed as kind of successor out of Knative) Maybe it would be a good solution to tackle two things independently. 1) Design and implement a common protocol of building, running and calling OW runtimes on Knative 2) Implement the OW invocation API on top of Knative as an additional option for those who have the need to expose it. I would looking forward to work with you on the first work item. Regards, Martin > On 20. May 2019, at 08:55, Michele Sciabarra wrote: > > >>> I have an idea for implementing a prototype of OpenWhisk on top of Knative. >>> My basic ideas are: do not use any proxy, forwarding or adapter: extend >>> the runtime to support the REST call and expose them as ingress. And use a >>> wrapper on top of `kubectl` to generate all the needed components. > >> Does this tie into the work that Matt was doing to the runtimes to make >> them runnable on Knative? Is this lined up with that at all? > Actually yes. He suggested I can investigate how to migrate ActionLoop to > port many other languages to Knative. > Also he recommended I add my idea and this is what I am doing. Current code > is, if I am not wrong, a Knative build of the nodejs runtime. > > There has been a number of attempts and proposal to move forward OpenWhisk. > My idea that to succeed we need something small but that just works. This is > my idea to be able to implement in the shorter time frame possible an actual > subset of OpenWhisk that works and it is truly built on top of Knative. So I > am putting the thing a bit further than Matt work. > > >>> My goal is to have a functional work-alike of OpenWhisk built on top of >>> Knative, using ActionLoop as a foundation. I will extend ActionLoop to >>> support the required REST calls of OpenWhisk. >> >>> I also want to create tool, I will call `wskn`. This tool will initially >>> just a python script, a wrapper on top of `kubectl` as it will generate >>> kubernetes descriptors. >> Why not build this into "wsk" itself? The Azure Functions CLI as an example >> supports multiple deployment types like this in one CLI. > > When it will works, yes, of course. But to start, what I really need is a > prototype that can generate kubernetes descripttors to feed to kubectl, so a > simplee, quick and ditry, separate tool (that I will keep together the > runtime) is all I need for now. > >>> >>> It will support initially just the the action creation and invocation, and >>> only synchronous (blocking) behaviour, as all the request will go straight >>> to the runtimes. Hopefully also a subset of `package` and `activation`. >>> Again triggers, rules, asynchronous for later. >>> >>> The idea is that you will be able to create actions and web actions that >>> can run existing OpenWhisk actions, at least those with blocking behaviour >>> that run with ActionLoop (Go, Java, Python, PHP, Swift, Rust, Ruby, >>> Crystal...) >>> >>> Implementation. >>> == >>> >>> This is how I plan to implement it. >>> >>> At this stage I want to use just Knative Serving and Knative Build, using >>> Gloo for the ingress part. I also plan to install a local Docker registry >>> Kubernetes registry, so we do not have to use DockerHub for everything. All >>> of this can be done with existing command line tools in a few minutes in >>> any running Kubernetes deployment. >>> > >> Why specifying Gloo here? Do you need anything specific from Gloo itself? >> If not I'd propose to just keep it on a Knative Serving API surface level. > I want to build it on top of Knative serving, full stop. Currently, > installing Gloo is pretty easy and is more lightweight than Istio so I will > use it for my first implementation. > >>> >>> When I create an action, it will use Knative build that will work roughly >>> in this way: >>> >>> - create a configmap with the action code >>> - build the actin using ActionLoop precompilation feature that will return >>> a zip file including all the needed to run the action >>> - create a new docker image extending the runtime with the new zip, using >>> Kaanico >>> - push the image in the local registry >> This feels like a fairly heavyweight process, we should be able to come up >> with a way to circumvent zipping entirely. Maybe the runtime can detect >> that the unzipped content is already there and skip the unzip step? > > Actually
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
>> I have an idea for implementing a prototype of OpenWhisk on top of Knative. >> My basic ideas are: do not use any proxy, forwarding or adapter: extend >> the runtime to support the REST call and expose them as ingress. And use a >> wrapper on top of `kubectl` to generate all the needed components. >Does this tie into the work that Matt was doing to the runtimes to make >them runnable on Knative? Is this lined up with that at all? Actually yes. He suggested I can investigate how to migrate ActionLoop to port many other languages to Knative. Also he recommended I add my idea and this is what I am doing. Current code is, if I am not wrong, a Knative build of the nodejs runtime. There has been a number of attempts and proposal to move forward OpenWhisk. My idea that to succeed we need something small but that just works. This is my idea to be able to implement in the shorter time frame possible an actual subset of OpenWhisk that works and it is truly built on top of Knative. So I am putting the thing a bit further than Matt work. >> My goal is to have a functional work-alike of OpenWhisk built on top of >> Knative, using ActionLoop as a foundation. I will extend ActionLoop to >> support the required REST calls of OpenWhisk. > >> I also want to create tool, I will call `wskn`. This tool will initially >> just a python script, a wrapper on top of `kubectl` as it will generate >> kubernetes descriptors. >Why not build this into "wsk" itself? The Azure Functions CLI as an example >supports multiple deployment types like this in one CLI. When it will works, yes, of course. But to start, what I really need is a prototype that can generate kubernetes descripttors to feed to kubectl, so a simplee, quick and ditry, separate tool (that I will keep together the runtime) is all I need for now. >> >> It will support initially just the the action creation and invocation, and >> only synchronous (blocking) behaviour, as all the request will go straight >> to the runtimes. Hopefully also a subset of `package` and `activation`. >> Again triggers, rules, asynchronous for later. >> >> The idea is that you will be able to create actions and web actions that >> can run existing OpenWhisk actions, at least those with blocking behaviour >> that run with ActionLoop (Go, Java, Python, PHP, Swift, Rust, Ruby, >> Crystal...) >> >> Implementation. >> == >> >> This is how I plan to implement it. >> >> At this stage I want to use just Knative Serving and Knative Build, using >> Gloo for the ingress part. I also plan to install a local Docker registry >> Kubernetes registry, so we do not have to use DockerHub for everything. All >> of this can be done with existing command line tools in a few minutes in >> any running Kubernetes deployment. >> >Why specifying Gloo here? Do you need anything specific from Gloo itself? >If not I'd propose to just keep it on a Knative Serving API surface level. I want to build it on top of Knative serving, full stop. Currently, installing Gloo is pretty easy and is more lightweight than Istio so I will use it for my first implementation. >> >> When I create an action, it will use Knative build that will work roughly >> in this way: >> >> - create a configmap with the action code >> - build the actin using ActionLoop precompilation feature that will return >> a zip file including all the needed to run the action >> - create a new docker image extending the runtime with the new zip, using >> Kaanico >> - push the image in the local registry >This feels like a fairly heavyweight process, we should be able to come up >with a way to circumvent zipping entirely. Maybe the runtime can detect >that the unzipped content is already there and skip the unzip step? Actually this is my first idea of how to use Knative build. And is not complicated: when I create the action, a run a build that includes Kanico. I generate a Dockerfile on the fly. The docker file uses the action runtime that already know how to compile a script. And then I save an image. I already implemented un "autoinit" so just launching the image will give a runtime ready to run that execute an action already compiled. >I'm fairly hesitant on the usage of a ConfigMap for storing the action >code. It's all stored in the in-cluster etcd instance and it has a limit of >1M. This is at most a stop-gap solution to provide a PoC I think. Any ideas >on how to "productize" this? ConfigMap can be mounted as files, so it is an easy way to feed an action to a build. It is just an easy way to feed the action code to the Build. My initial constraint is that I want just to generate Kubernetes descriptors to feed to kubectl. Of course in the long run I can add some "file upload" storage. If I could to this file upload when invoking a build it could ideal as I do not have to store anything anywhere, just process the code and generate a single layer to execute actions to be store in the registry. I will investigate
Re: A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
Hi Michele, thank you for the detailed writeup. A few thoughts inline: Am So., 19. Mai 2019 um 19:00 Uhr schrieb Michele Sciabarra < mich...@sciabarra.com>: > I have an idea for implementing a prototype of OpenWhisk on top of Knative. > > My basic ideas are: do not use any proxy, forwarding or adapter: extend > the runtime to support the REST call and expose them as ingress. And use a > wrapper on top of `kubectl` to generate all the needed componennts. > Does this tie into the work that Matt was doing to the runtimes to make them runnable on Knative? Is this lined up with that at all? > > My goal is to have a functional work-alike of OpenWhisk built on top of > Knative, using ActionLoop as a foundation. I will extend ActionLoop to > support the required REST calls of OpenWhisk. > > I also want to create tool, I will call `wskn`. This tool will initially > just a python script, a wrapper on top of `kubectl` as it will generate > kubernetes descriptors. > Why not build this into "wsk" itself? The Azure Functions CLI as an example supports multiple deployment types like this in one CLI. > > It will support initially just the the action creation and invocation, and > only synchronous (blocking) behaviour, as all the request will go straight > to the runtimes. Hopefully also a subset of `package` and `activation`. > Again triggers, rules, asynchronous for later. > > The idea is that you will be able to create actions and web actions that > can run existing OpenWhisk actions, at least those with blocking behaviour > that run with ActionLoop (Go, Java, Python, PHP, Swift, Rust, Ruby, > Crystal...) > > Implementation. > == > > This is how I plan to implement it. > > At this stage I want to use just Knative Serving and Knative Build, using > Gloo for the ingress part. I also plan to install a local Docker registry > Kubernetes registry, so we do not have to use DockerHub for everything. All > of this can be done with existing command line tools in a few minutes in > any running Kubernetes deployment. > Why specifying Gloo here? Do you need anything specific from Gloo itself? If not I'd propose to just keep it on a Knative Serving API surface level. > > When I create an action, it will use Knative build that will work roughly > in this way: > > - create a configmap with the action code > - build the actin using ActionLoop precompilation feature that will return > a zip file including all the needed to run the action > - create a new docker image extending the runtime with the new zip, using > Kaanico > - push the image in the local registry > This feels like a fairly heavyweight process, we should be able to come up with a way to circumvent zipping entirely. Maybe the runtime can detect that the unzipped content is already there and skip the unzip step? I'm fairly hesitant on the usage of a ConfigMap for storing the action code. It's all stored in the in-cluster etcd instance and it has a limit of 1M. This is at most a stop-gap solution to provide a PoC I think. Any ideas on how to "productize" this? > > At this point you can run the action. ActionLoop will be extended to > support invocations in the format > "/v1/namespaces/namespace/actions/package/action". > Why bother reimplementing this exact path? To obtain API compatibility with OpenWhisk as it is today? > > It will do all the decoding required to invoke the action with the > expected paramenters (straight invocation thrhoug the actinloop protocol, > not proxies). > Does this mean moving all of the Controller's "smartness" about incoming and outgoing HTTP requests (see the whole WebActions for example)? > > Each action will then be exposed using an ingress with its specific > invocation path. > > If the community agrees with this plan, I would create a repo > `incubator-openwhisk-knative` to work on it. > > Thoughts? > > > -- > Michele Sciabarra > mich...@sciabarra.com >
A plan to (re) implement OpenWhisk on top of Knative
I have an idea for implementing a prototype of OpenWhisk on top of Knative. My basic ideas are: do not use any proxy, forwarding or adapter: extend the runtime to support the REST call and expose them as ingress. And use a wrapper on top of `kubectl` to generate all the needed componennts. My goal is to have a functional work-alike of OpenWhisk built on top of Knative, using ActionLoop as a foundation. I will extend ActionLoop to support the required REST calls of OpenWhisk. I also want to create tool, I will call `wskn`. This tool will initially just a python script, a wrapper on top of `kubectl` as it will generate kubernetes descriptors. It will support initially just the the action creation and invocation, and only synchronous (blocking) behaviour, as all the request will go straight to the runtimes. Hopefully also a subset of `package` and `activation`. Again triggers, rules, asynchronous for later. The idea is that you will be able to create actions and web actions that can run existing OpenWhisk actions, at least those with blocking behaviour that run with ActionLoop (Go, Java, Python, PHP, Swift, Rust, Ruby, Crystal...) Implementation. == This is how I plan to implement it. At this stage I want to use just Knative Serving and Knative Build, using Gloo for the ingress part. I also plan to install a local Docker registry Kubernetes registry, so we do not have to use DockerHub for everything. All of this can be done with existing command line tools in a few minutes in any running Kubernetes deployment. When I create an action, it will use Knative build that will work roughly in this way: - create a configmap with the action code - build the actin using ActionLoop precompilation feature that will return a zip file including all the needed to run the action - create a new docker image extending the runtime with the new zip, using Kaanico - push the image in the local registry At this point you can run the action. ActionLoop will be extended to support invocations in the format "/v1/namespaces/namespace/actions/package/action". It will do all the decoding required to invoke the action with the expected paramenters (straight invocation thrhoug the actinloop protocol, not proxies). Each action will then be exposed using an ingress with its specific invocation path. If the community agrees with this plan, I would create a repo `incubator-openwhisk-knative` to work on it. Thoughts? -- Michele Sciabarra mich...@sciabarra.com
