Re: [racket-dev] Racket logo
On Thu, Feb 09, 2012 at 11:04:41PM -0500, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > I prefer keeping the lambda in it.[1] Also "r" is much less > > unique.[2] 1+ (or 1!) _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Racket logo
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:00:37 -0700 Jordan Schatz wrote: > On Thu, Feb 09, 2012 at 11:04:41PM -0500, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > > I prefer keeping the lambda in it.[1] Also "r" is much less > > > unique.[2] > > 1+ (or 1!) +wau -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFLkou8NvJo s. -- "This is why Science and Mathematics are still much fun: You discover things that seem impossible to be true and then get to figure out why it's impossible for them not to be." -- Vi Hart: Spirals, Fibonacci, and Being a Plant, Part 3 _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Racket logo
+1 At Thu, 9 Feb 2012 22:34:31 +, Stephen De Gabrielle wrote: > +1 > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Jay McCarthy wrote: > > > +1 > > > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 6:18 PM, Robby Findler > > wrote: > > > John Clements and Neil Toronto have put together a new Racket logo > > > that I've just put on the DrRacket splash screen. See what you think. > > > > > > Robby > > > _ > > > Racket Developers list: > > > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev > > > > > > > > -- > > Jay McCarthy > > Assistant Professor / Brigham Young University > > http://faculty.cs.byu.edu/~jay > > > > "The glory of God is Intelligence" - D&C 93 > > > > _ > > Racket Developers list: > > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev > > > > > > -- > > -- > Stephen De Gabrielle > stephen.degabrie...@acm.org > Telephone +44 (0)20 85670911 > Mobile+44 (0)79 85189045 > http://www.degabrielle.name/stephen > > Professor: Oh God! I clicked without reading! > Cubert: And I slightly modified something I own! > Professor: We're monsters! > _ > Racket Developers list: > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Racket logo
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > Apparently I was confused, and didn't realize that this wasn't a > discussion but a change that is already the default. I put it there to make easy for people to see it in one of the more prominent places where it will appear, not because "this isn't a discussion". Software makes it easy to change these things. ;) Robby _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Racket logo
An hour and a half ago, Robby Findler wrote: > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Eli Barzilay wrote: > > Apparently I was confused, and didn't realize that this wasn't a > > discussion but a change that is already the default. > > I put it there to make easy for people to see it in one of the more > prominent places where it will appear, not because "this isn't a > discussion". Software makes it easy to change these things. ;) I was confused by the commit -- I thought that you added a "plt" magic combo for the startup that shows the new one, not the other way. In any case, I'll try to explain my opinion about this. The first thing that I don't like is the lack of "λ". The visual pun is mostly lost (and for a good reason: try to rotate+mirror it to a λ and you'll see that it's barely recognizable), and I think many will view it as just a weird "r". This is very different from the realm of racket logo (http://tmp.barzilay.org/ror.jpg) logo that is an excellent pun (and which incidentally will get mostly trashed if the racket logo changes to the suggested one). So if the decision is to do that, the next thing that me dislike it is that it's *just* an "r". It's not the first character in "Racket", it's not a unique operator in the language, it's just an "r". It's true that it's a pretty "r", but it really does look like it is just going straight down the twitter/facebook/google path, making it even more of a non-statement. A logo is IMO an important aspect, and you don't need to be a graphic designer to know that a logo is important visual identity -- and as such I *really* don't want the racket identity to be "stylish r", especially not when "stylish lowercase character" is so chewed up. This is why I suggested adding some "acket", so it's not doing that. It's true that at tiny sizes (favicon) it will have to be dropped, but at least the full version provides (in my view) some good excuse for the small version being "acket"-less. I did a quick sketch for this here: http://tmp.barzilay.org/r.png If I need to quantify my choices from 1 to -1, they would be 70% for the current one (not 100% since I'm fine with some refreshing), 10% for some version with "acket", and -70% for the suggested character-less-imo "r". -- ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) Eli Barzilay: http://barzilay.org/ Maze is Life! _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] Racket logo
Eli Barzilay wrote at 02/09/2012 09:27 PM: ([2] What Neil VD said.) It's just "Neil V." -- no social diseases. -- http://www.neilvandyke.org/ _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
[racket-dev] very unhelpful beginner language error message, possible fix proposed
A user on stackoverflow had a question about this code: (define list-sum-odd (lambda (list) (cond ((null? list) 0) ((odd? (car list)) (+ (car list) (list-sum-odd (cdr list (list-sum-odd (cdr list) (list-sum-odd '(3 4 5)) ... which signalled an error. In #lang racket, you get "+: expects type as 2nd argument, given: '(5); other arguments were: 3" ... which is the right error for #lang racket. The response showed him that he'd forgotten the "else" in his last clause. "Ho Ho!" thought I. "Beginner Student Racket will give a much better error message." Actually, though, the error message was much worse: it highlighted the id "list-sum-odd" in what should have been the 'else' case, and wrote: "list-sum-odd: expected a function call, but there is no open parenthesis before this function" ... which is really terrible, because there *IS* a parenthesis right before the function name. I can see perfectly clearly how this arises as the composition of macros; would it make sense for the 'cond' macro to check to see whether its test expression is a bare function name before rearranging the pieces and continuing with expansion? Specifically, it looks like such a check could be inserted on line 1316 of teach.rkt, in this code: [(question answer) (with-syntax ([verified (stepper-ignore-checker (syntax (verify-boolean question 'cond)))]) (syntax/loc clause (verified answer)))] ... where you could issue an error message for questions that are ids that are bound to user-defined functions--we have this information, right? John smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] very unhelpful beginner language error message, possible fix proposed
> > "Ho Ho!" thought I. "Beginner Student Racket will give a much better error > message." Actually, though, the error message was much worse: it highlighted > the id "list-sum-odd" in what should have been the 'else' case, and wrote: > > "list-sum-odd: expected a function call, but there is no open parenthesis > before this function" > > ... which is really terrible, because there *IS* a parenthesis right before > the function name. This is a variation of one of the cases described in Guillaume's paper on error messages. Figure 4 of http://gmarceau.qc.ca/papers/Marceau-2010-Measuring-Effectiveness.pdf _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] very unhelpful beginner language error message, possible fix proposed
Yes, and it was submitted in some form as a bug before. Why don't you modify teach.rkt and see whether you like the result better. Then submit. On Feb 10, 2012, at 5:43 PM, Danny Yoo wrote: >> >> "Ho Ho!" thought I. "Beginner Student Racket will give a much better error >> message." Actually, though, the error message was much worse: it highlighted >> the id "list-sum-odd" in what should have been the 'else' case, and wrote: >> >> "list-sum-odd: expected a function call, but there is no open parenthesis >> before this function" >> >> ... which is really terrible, because there *IS* a parenthesis right before >> the function name. > > > This is a variation of one of the cases described in Guillaume's paper > on error messages. Figure 4 of > http://gmarceau.qc.ca/papers/Marceau-2010-Measuring-Effectiveness.pdf > _ > Racket Developers list: > http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] very unhelpful beginner language error message, possible fix proposed
On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Danny Yoo wrote: >> >> "Ho Ho!" thought I. "Beginner Student Racket will give a much better error >> message." Actually, though, the error message was much worse: it highlighted >> the id "list-sum-odd" in what should have been the 'else' case, and wrote: >> >> "list-sum-odd: expected a function call, but there is no open parenthesis >> before this function" >> >> ... which is really terrible, because there *IS* a parenthesis right before >> the function name. > > > This is a variation of one of the cases described in Guillaume's paper > on error messages. Figure 4 of > http://gmarceau.qc.ca/papers/Marceau-2010-Measuring-Effectiveness.pdf Yes, I agree. Are you suggesting that there's low-hanging fruit in the form of a more general solution? John smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
Re: [racket-dev] very unhelpful beginner language error message, possible fix proposed
>> This is a variation of one of the cases described in Guillaume's paper >> on error messages. Figure 4 of >> http://gmarceau.qc.ca/papers/Marceau-2010-Measuring-Effectiveness.pdf > > Yes, I agree. Are you suggesting that there's low-hanging fruit in the form > of a more general solution? I'm hoping that your bug fix applies to both 'and' as well as primitive functions. _ Racket Developers list: http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev
