Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Roy T. Fielding]

On Sep 8, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> 
> On Tuesday 06 September 2016 08:14:13 Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> It was a response to a third party's legal demand, not a marketing fail. A
>> change to the name used by the software is suggested, not just a change of
>> the language name. In fact, the language name would not normally be an
>> issue.
> 
> If it may be a legal issue* to the project I would have expected at least a 
> notice to the PMC's mailing list. And I wonder if removing Sightly from all 
> package and class names *now* is not the safest route to go.
> 
> Regards,
> O.

In general, legal issues often come with a limited audience and a default
of "cannot be shared in public".  AFAIK, this issue was not directed to
the Apache Sling project; it was directed at Adobe.  Someone at Adobe,
regardless of the merits of the service mark, decided that a name change for
the language would be the best course of action for Adobe.  I assume that
is because we use the language name within AEM, which might theoretically
be interpreted as a software as a service business (for some installs).

I have not seen the actual C letter, so that's all I know about the subject.
The other Sling developers who happen to work at Adobe are probably less
informed about the subject, which is why I have attempted to explain it.

As Bertrand mentioned, the next step should have been a discussion at
Apache (on dev) about the language name having been changed and suggestions
for what changes (if any) might be made to the Sling API.  I have not been
following dev closely enough to know whether that has occurred, but
it certainly is my expectation as well.  You are right to question it.

> * which doesn't rule out a marketing fail, as it's marketing's job to do 
> brand 
> research and find out about possible naming conflicts

Umm, no.  Legal does that only when a name is chosen for a public
product or service.  In this case, our developers chose the name for
their language project before the name became a registered service mark.
We don't even use the name for a service, but we do talk about it as
a feature.  It's not that big a deal.  Certainly not an excuse to cast blame.

IANAL, but I seriously doubt Apache would be subject to a service mark
dispute over one of our names.  This only affects downstream businesses.
However, once we know a legal land mine exists, it would be irresponsible
to include it within an Apache product even if it can't directly impact
the open source code.  It is far easier to just change the name.

Cheers,

Roy

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> ...I would have expected at least a notice to the PMC's mailing list

I agree with that, next time a "big" thing like completely renaming a
module happens, it should be discussed on this list (or our private
list if really really needed) before making decisions.

-Bertrand

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Oliver Lietz]

On Tuesday 06 September 2016 08:14:13 Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> It was a response to a third party's legal demand, not a marketing fail. A
> change to the name used by the software is suggested, not just a change of
> the language name. In fact, the language name would not normally be an
> issue.

If it may be a legal issue* to the project I would have expected at least a 
notice to the PMC's mailing list. And I wonder if removing Sightly from all 
package and class names *now* is not the safest route to go.

Regards,
O.

* which doesn't rule out a marketing fail, as it's marketing's job to do brand 
research and find out about possible naming conflicts

> Roy
> 
> > On Sep 6, 2016, at 6:39 AM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> >> On Tuesday 06 September 2016 00:03:22 Justin Edelson wrote:
> >> Simply put - because Adobe changed the language name. Since Adobe defines
> >> the specification and Sling just contains the implementation, it makes
> >> sense for the implementation to have the same name as the specification.
> >> Otherwise, we are implementing something which no longer exists.
> > 
> > Sorry, I have to disagree. The language or spec is one thing, the
> > implementation(s) a different. Most prominent example is HTML itself and
> > the various rendering engines, e.g. Gecko, KHTML, WebKit, Presto,
> > Tasman...
> > 
> > We now have a break between names and modules/packages and a bunch of dead
> > links. That mess is totally unnecessary. Marketing fail.
> > 
> > Adjusting the language name in Sling from Sighlty back to HTL (*sigh*)
> > would have been sufficient: Sling Sightly implementing (Adobe's) HTL.
> > 
> > @Radu, can you please revert the changes in Sling Launchpad 8 and Sling
> > IDE
> > Tooling 1.1 release news? The name of the language was Sightly at that
> > time.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > O.
> > 
> >>> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 2:16 PM Oliver Lietz 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> hi all,
> >>> 
> >>> why do we rename Sightly in Sling back to HTL?
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> O.

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Roy T. Fielding]

It was a response to a third party's legal demand, not a marketing fail. A 
change to the name used by the software is suggested, not just a change of the 
language name. In fact, the language name would not normally be an issue.

Roy


> On Sep 6, 2016, at 6:39 AM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday 06 September 2016 00:03:22 Justin Edelson wrote:
>> Simply put - because Adobe changed the language name. Since Adobe defines
>> the specification and Sling just contains the implementation, it makes
>> sense for the implementation to have the same name as the specification.
>> Otherwise, we are implementing something which no longer exists.
> 
> Sorry, I have to disagree. The language or spec is one thing, the 
> implementation(s) a different. Most prominent example is HTML itself and the 
> various rendering engines, e.g. Gecko, KHTML, WebKit, Presto, Tasman...
> 
> We now have a break between names and modules/packages and a bunch of dead 
> links. That mess is totally unnecessary. Marketing fail.
> 
> Adjusting the language name in Sling from Sighlty back to HTL (*sigh*) would 
> have been sufficient: Sling Sightly implementing (Adobe's) HTL.
> 
> @Radu, can you please revert the changes in Sling Launchpad 8 and Sling IDE 
> Tooling 1.1 release news? The name of the language was Sightly at that time.
> 
> Regards,
> O.
> 
>>> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 2:16 PM Oliver Lietz  wrote:
>>> hi all,
>>> 
>>> why do we rename Sightly in Sling back to HTL?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> O.
> 

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Radu Cotescu]

Done in https://svn.apache.org/r1759438

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 at 16:22 Radu Cotescu  wrote:

> There's one redirect that we need to put in place:
>
>
> https://sling.apache.org/documentation/bundles/scripting/scripting-sightly.html
>  -->
> https://sling.apache.org/documentation/bundles/scripting/scripting-htl.html
>
> I'll also revert the changes to the Sling Launchpad 8 and Sling IDE Tooling
> 1.1 release news pages.
>
> Thanks,
> Radu
>

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Radu Cotescu]

There's one redirect that we need to put in place:

https://sling.apache.org/documentation/bundles/scripting/scripting-sightly.html
-->
https://sling.apache.org/documentation/bundles/scripting/scripting-htl.html

I'll also revert the changes to the Sling Launchpad 8 and Sling IDE Tooling
1.1 release news pages.

Thanks,
Radu

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 at 16:14 Bertrand Delacretaz 
wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Oliver Lietz 
> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 06 September 2016 13:50:21 Radu Cotescu wrote:
> >> On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 at 15:40 Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> >> > We now have a break between names and modules/packages and a bunch of
> dead
> >> > links.
> >> Which dead links are you referring to?
> > The ones we don't control: search engine results, blog posts, slides, ...
>
> Good point - did any of our URLs change in this rename?
>
> If yes I think we should at least have proper redirects for them - if
> that's in our docs an entry in
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/sling/site/trunk/content/.htaccess
> should do.
>
> I agree with Oliver that this rename is not strictly needed and should
> have been discussed on our dev list before implementing it, which I
> don't think happened.
>
> So let's try at least to make it as painless as possible for our users.
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 September 2016 13:50:21 Radu Cotescu wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 at 15:40 Oliver Lietz  wrote:
>> > We now have a break between names and modules/packages and a bunch of dead
>> > links.
>> Which dead links are you referring to?
> The ones we don't control: search engine results, blog posts, slides, ...

Good point - did any of our URLs change in this rename?

If yes I think we should at least have proper redirects for them - if
that's in our docs an entry in
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/sling/site/trunk/content/.htaccess
should do.

I agree with Oliver that this rename is not strictly needed and should
have been discussed on our dev list before implementing it, which I
don't think happened.

So let's try at least to make it as painless as possible for our users.

-Bertrand

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Oliver Lietz]

On Tuesday 06 September 2016 13:50:21 Radu Cotescu wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 at 15:40 Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> > We now have a break between names and modules/packages and a bunch of dead
> > links.
> 
> Which dead links are you referring to?

The ones we don't control: search engine results, blog posts, slides, ...

> > @Radu, can you please revert the changes in Sling Launchpad 8 and Sling
> > IDE
> > Tooling 1.1 release news? The name of the language was Sightly at that
> > time.
> 
> Yes, I could.

Thanks,
O.

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Radu Cotescu]

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 at 15:40 Oliver Lietz  wrote:

>
> We now have a break between names and modules/packages and a bunch of dead
> links.
>
>
Which dead links are you referring to?


> @Radu, can you please revert the changes in Sling Launchpad 8 and Sling IDE
> Tooling 1.1 release news? The name of the language was Sightly at that
> time.
>
>
Yes, I could.

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Oliver Lietz]

On Tuesday 06 September 2016 00:03:22 Justin Edelson wrote:
> Simply put - because Adobe changed the language name. Since Adobe defines
> the specification and Sling just contains the implementation, it makes
> sense for the implementation to have the same name as the specification.
> Otherwise, we are implementing something which no longer exists.

Sorry, I have to disagree. The language or spec is one thing, the 
implementation(s) a different. Most prominent example is HTML itself and the 
various rendering engines, e.g. Gecko, KHTML, WebKit, Presto, Tasman...

We now have a break between names and modules/packages and a bunch of dead 
links. That mess is totally unnecessary. Marketing fail.

Adjusting the language name in Sling from Sighlty back to HTL (*sigh*) would 
have been sufficient: Sling Sightly implementing (Adobe's) HTL.

@Radu, can you please revert the changes in Sling Launchpad 8 and Sling IDE 
Tooling 1.1 release news? The name of the language was Sightly at that time.

Regards,
O.

> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 2:16 PM Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> > hi all,
> > 
> > why do we rename Sightly in Sling back to HTL?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > O.

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Radu Cotescu]

Hi,

Everything's already there - I've just published the update. :)

Cheers,
Radu

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 at 13:37 Bertrand Delacretaz 
wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Stefan Seifert 
> wrote:
> > ...perhaps we should also add an addition like "formerly known as
> Sightly, renamed in August 2016" etc.,
> > so people do not get confused esp. as slightly still occurs in all
> technical names on this page...
>
> +1, searching the Web for "Sightly" should find that page.
>
> And Radu I also think we need a jira ticket that briefly explains what
> was renamed, to avoid repeating what's being said in this thread - the
> scripting-htl.html page can then link to that ticket for details.
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Stefan Seifert  wrote:
> ...perhaps we should also add an addition like "formerly known as Sightly, 
> renamed in August 2016" etc.,
> so people do not get confused esp. as slightly still occurs in all technical 
> names on this page...

+1, searching the Web for "Sightly" should find that page.

And Radu I also think we need a jira ticket that briefly explains what
was renamed, to avoid repeating what's being said in this thread - the
scripting-htl.html page can then link to that ticket for details.

-Bertrand

RE: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Stefan Seifert]

>We have
>https://sling.apache.org/documentation/bundles/scripting/scripting-htl.html
>which
>documents most of the available bundles (except for the two new compilers -
>I'll add them soon).

perhaps we should also add an addition like "formerly known as Sightly, renamed 
in August 2016" etc., so people do not get confused esp. as slightly still 
occurs in all technical names on this page.

stefan

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Radu Cotescu]

Hi,

We have
https://sling.apache.org/documentation/bundles/scripting/scripting-htl.html
which
documents most of the available bundles (except for the two new compilers -
I'll add them soon).

The rename is mostly cosmetic - the bundles names and API are the same.
I've only changed the projects' names and updated the descriptions.

Please let me know if we need something more than that.

Thanks,
Radu

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 at 09:39 Bertrand Delacretaz 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:03 AM, Justin Edelson 
> wrote:
> > ...Since Adobe defines the specification and Sling just contains the
> implementation,
> > it makes sense for the implementation to have the same name as the
> specification...
>
> I'm not opposed to renaming but I think we need a clear description of
> what changed, including possible backwards compatibility issues (due
> to name changes etc).
>
> I don't think we have a Sightly page at
> http://sling.apache.org/documentation/bundles.html, this might be a
> good opportunity to create one listing which bundles we provide and
> explaining the name change.
>
> Radu (as you've mostly been working on this), WDYT?
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi,

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:03 AM, Justin Edelson  wrote:
> ...Since Adobe defines the specification and Sling just contains the 
> implementation,
> it makes sense for the implementation to have the same name as the 
> specification...

I'm not opposed to renaming but I think we need a clear description of
what changed, including possible backwards compatibility issues (due
to name changes etc).

I don't think we have a Sightly page at
http://sling.apache.org/documentation/bundles.html, this might be a
good opportunity to create one listing which bundles we provide and
explaining the name change.

Radu (as you've mostly been working on this), WDYT?

-Bertrand

Re: What's wrong with Sightly?

[Justin Edelson]

Simply put - because Adobe changed the language name. Since Adobe defines
the specification and Sling just contains the implementation, it makes
sense for the implementation to have the same name as the specification.
Otherwise, we are implementing something which no longer exists.

On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 2:16 PM Oliver Lietz  wrote:

> hi all,
>
> why do we rename Sightly in Sling back to HTL?
>
> Thanks,
> O.
>
>