Re: [dev] Interesting post about X11

[Robert Ransom]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:00:44 +0200
Alexander Teinum  wrote:

> > Use Scheme.  See Scheme 48  for a nice, simple
> > implementation to start hacking on.

> This thread is about a replacement for X, but we’re also discussing
> development of “regular” applications. What exactly would you
> recommend Scheme for?

Scheme *should* be used for almost everything -- bootloaders, OS
kernels, hardware drivers, tiny user utilities (like (Plan 9) ls and
mc; Unix ls no longer qualifies as a tiny utility, and should not be
written at all), long-running servers, etc. -- everything but x86 boot
sectors should be written in Scheme.

Unfortunately, the readily available Scheme systems are unsuited for
most of those tasks.  At the moment, Scheme *can* be used for
scripting and moderately large user applications (roughly, any daemon
with a built-in or otherwise firmly attached GUI -- think mail UAs and
multi-file editors for common examples).

For low-level programming (kernels and drivers), you would need a
Scheme compiler with support for compile-time and explicitly specified
run-time memory allocation, as well as good type inference and support
for explicitly specified physical types.  For small utilities, you
would need a Scheme implementation with a small run-time library.
Long-running servers would benefit from the same compiler capabilities
that low-level programming requires, but you can usually do without
them.

Robert Ransom


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Re: [dev] picture

[Uriel]

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 11:54 PM, Kris Maglione  wrote:
> Not that there's anything wrong with BY-SA or any other CC licenses. It's a
> matter of personal preference (though I'm personally never fond of SA-type
> clauses, especially when they take on a viral bent).

It is not a matter of personal preference, it has many of the same
problems as the GPL, with the added confusion and complication of much
worse license-proliferation.

That some CC licenses don't even allow 'commercial use' (as if this
could be defined!) should be enough of a red flag to stay away from
the whole lot.

CC0 on the other hand is quite different and is very useful, and
everyone should use it if they want to allow as many people as
possible to use their work but don't want to spend a lifetime learning
all the retarded legal braindamage spread all over the world.

uriel

Re: [dev] picture

[Uriel]

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis
 wrote:
>
> On 20 Jun 2010, at 22:08, ⚖ Alexander Surma Surma wrote:
>
>> The problem with public domain is, that it's not really global (some
>> country behave differently).
>
> I used this in rc-httpd:
>
>        LICENSE
>
>  None.  rc-httpd is in the public domain, I give up all rights to it.
>  For countries without a concept of public domain, consider it entirely
>  without owner.
>
> If anyone sees any problems with it, I'd like to know.

Are you a lawyer with expertise in the arcane rules of copyright in
every country? No, then don't think you can pull a 'license' or
'disclaimer' out of your ass that will be worth anything.

People already have done the homework, either use CC0 (or MIT/BSD/ISC
license) or ignore the problem and just say 'public domain' and to
hell with people living in countries with terminally braindead
copyright laws.

uriel

Re: [dev] picture

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis
 wrote:
> Ah, thanks.
>
> Grr, stupid laws, making me *think!*

Of course, nobody's forcing you to go to any of those retarded
countries.  In fact, such countries are clearly led and populated by
complete morons, so there's no reason to care what their backwards
laws are.

-- 
# Kurt H Maier

Re: [dev] picture

[Jakub Lach]

Dnia 20 czerwca 2010 23:16 Ethan Grammatikidis 
 napisał(a):

> I used this in rc-httpd:
> 
>   LICENSE
>   
>None.  rc-httpd is in the public domain, I give up all rights to it.
>For countries without a concept of public domain, consider it  
> entirely
>without owner.
> 
> If anyone sees any problems with it, I'd like to know.
 
 
If it works in your legal system that's good, but this license
is probably useless (for authors) in Poland, because:

a) Public domain is legally non-defined and by most 
barely grasped / vague concept.

(Most people who could use your software would stick to safer 
licensed works, which have clearer legal status.)

b)You cannot as a author legally binding disclaim copyright. 

Cession of author's economic rights to another person is of course 
possible, however complete waiver of them is different case..

regards, 
Jakub Lach

Re: [dev] picture

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On 20 Jun 2010, at 22:54, Kris Maglione wrote:


On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 10:16:11PM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:


On 20 Jun 2010, at 22:08, ⚖ Alexander Surma Surma wrote:


The problem with public domain is, that it's not really global (some
country behave differently).


I used this in rc-httpd:

LICENSE

 None.  rc-httpd is in the public domain, I give up all rights to it.
 For countries without a concept of public domain, consider it  
entirely

 without owner.

If anyone sees any problems with it, I'd like to know.


"entirely without owner" is the same thing as public domain.  Some  
(many) countries don't recognize it. Which is to say, when you write  
something, you own it, and you don't have the legal right to  
disclaim ownership. Saying you've disclaimed ownership of something  
may well imply that you've anyone permission to do anything they  
like with it, but there's no legal standing in that.


Ah, thanks.

Grr, stupid laws, making me *think!*

CC0 disclaims ownership in countries where it's possible and issues  
explicit permissions everywhere else.


Not that there's anything wrong with BY-SA or any other CC licenses.  
It's a matter of personal preference (though I'm personally never  
fond of SA-type clauses, especially when they take on a viral bent).


--
Kris Maglione

If C gives you enough rope to hang yourself, C++ gives you enough rope
to bind and gag your neighbourhood, rig the sails in a small ship and
still have enough rope left to hang yourself from the yardarm.
--Anonymous

Re: [dev] picture

[Kris Maglione]

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 10:49:43PM +0200, ⚖ Alexander "Surma" Surma wrote:

WTFPL


Lol, did not know that one! That's even better.


I prefer BEER-WARE myself.

--
Kris Maglione

A program is portable to the extent that it can be easily moved to a
new computing environment with much less effort than would be required
to write it afresh.
--W. Stan Brown

Re: [dev] picture

[Kris Maglione]

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 10:16:11PM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:


On 20 Jun 2010, at 22:08, ⚖ Alexander Surma Surma wrote:


The problem with public domain is, that it's not really global (some
country behave differently).


I used this in rc-httpd:

LICENSE

  None.  rc-httpd is in the public domain, I give up all rights to it.
  For countries without a concept of public domain, consider it entirely
  without owner.

If anyone sees any problems with it, I'd like to know.


"entirely without owner" is the same thing as public domain.  
Some (many) countries don't recognize it. Which is to say, when 
you write something, you own it, and you don't have the legal 
right to disclaim ownership. Saying you've disclaimed ownership 
of something may well imply that you've anyone permission to do 
anything they like with it, but there's no legal standing in 
that. CC0 disclaims ownership in countries where it's possible 
and issues explicit permissions everywhere else.


Not that there's anything wrong with BY-SA or any other CC 
licenses. It's a matter of personal preference (though I'm 
personally never fond of SA-type clauses, especially when they 
take on a viral bent).


--
Kris Maglione

If C gives you enough rope to hang yourself, C++ gives you enough rope
to bind and gag your neighbourhood, rig the sails in a small ship and
still have enough rope left to hang yourself from the yardarm.
--Anonymous

Re: [dev] picture

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On 20 Jun 2010, at 22:08, ⚖ Alexander Surma Surma wrote:


The problem with public domain is, that it's not really global (some
country behave differently).


I used this in rc-httpd:

LICENSE

  None.  rc-httpd is in the public domain, I give up all rights to it.
  For countries without a concept of public domain, consider it  
entirely

  without owner.

If anyone sees any problems with it, I'd like to know.

Re: [dev] picture

[Jakub Lach]

Dnia 20 czerwca 2010 23:08 ⚖ Alexander "Surma" Surma 
 napisał(a):

> The problem with public domain is, that it's not really global (some
> country behave differently).

+
 

Re: [dev] picture

[Surma]

The problem with public domain is, that it's not really global (some
country behave differently).
And whats wrong with CC-BY? or CC-SA?

PS: I don't want to spark yet another license war! Just askin for reasons.

Surma

Re: [dev] picture

[Uriel]

Public domain, or if you really love CC, use CC0, all their other
licenses are crap.

uriel

2010/6/20 ⚖ Alexander "Surma" Surma :
> I was just about to ask, Creatives Common BY-SA?
>
> On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Daniel Baumann  wrote:
>> On 06/20/2010 05:26 PM, Martin Kopta wrote:
 May I post this to another list? I think it's great ;)
>>> Yes, of course. I can send you vectors if you want to.
>>
>> please do so, bonus points for publishing it under a free license.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>> --
>> Address:        Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
>> Email:          daniel.baum...@panthera-systems.net
>> Internet:       http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Alexander "cussing-makes-my-arguments-even-more-valid" Surma
>
>

Re: [dev] picture

[hiro]

Next time do your homework properly then.

On 6/20/10, ⚖ Alexander "Surma" Surma  wrote:
>> WTFPL
> Lol, did not know that one! That's even better.
>
>
> --
> Alexander "cussing-makes-my-arguments-even-more-valid" Surma
>
>

Re: [dev] picture

[Surma]

> WTFPL
Lol, did not know that one! That's even better.


-- 
Alexander "cussing-makes-my-arguments-even-more-valid" Surma

Re: [dev] picture

[Martin Kopta]

> I was just about to ask, Creatives Common BY-SA?

WTFPL


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Re: [dev] picture

[Surma]

I was just about to ask, Creatives Common BY-SA?

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Daniel Baumann  wrote:
> On 06/20/2010 05:26 PM, Martin Kopta wrote:
>>> May I post this to another list? I think it's great ;)
>> Yes, of course. I can send you vectors if you want to.
>
> please do so, bonus points for publishing it under a free license.
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
> --
> Address:        Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
> Email:          daniel.baum...@panthera-systems.net
> Internet:       http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/
>
>



-- 
Alexander "cussing-makes-my-arguments-even-more-valid" Surma

Re: [dev] picture

[Daniel Baumann]

On 06/20/2010 05:26 PM, Martin Kopta wrote:
>> May I post this to another list? I think it's great ;)
> Yes, of course. I can send you vectors if you want to.

please do so, bonus points for publishing it under a free license.

Regards,
Daniel

-- 
Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
Email:  daniel.baum...@panthera-systems.net
Internet:   http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/

Re: [dev] picture

[hiro]

Thank god suckless.org got to have a meaning.

Re: [dev] picture

[???]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:26:44 +0200
Martin Kopta  wrote:

> > May I post this to another list? I think it's great ;)
> Yes, of course. I can send you vectors if you want to.

Yes, please. 

Re: [dev] picture

[Martin Kopta]

> May I post this to another list? I think it's great ;)
Yes, of course. I can send you vectors if you want to.

Re: [dev] picture

[???]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:25:36 +0200
Martin Kopta  wrote:

> http://imgur.com/oPOeW.png
> 
May I post this to another list? I think it's great ;)

Re: [dev] picture

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On 20 Jun 2010, at 15:25, Martin Kopta wrote:


http://imgur.com/oPOeW.png



Once I started thinking of those things as alien jellyfish I started  
to like it.


I'm not saying what my first thought was. ó.o

Re: [dev] picture

[Surma]

You forgot "brutality" ;)

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Kris Maglione  wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 04:25:36PM +0200, Martin Kopta wrote:
>>
>> http://imgur.com/oPOeW.png
>>
>
> I can't help but notice that that conjures two, erm... not unrelated images.
>
> --
> Kris Maglione
>
> “Did God have a mother?” Children, when told that God made the heavens
> and the earth, innocently ask whether God had a mother.  This
> deceptively simple question has stumped the elders of the church and
> embarrassed the finest theologians, precipitating some of the
> thorniest theological debates over the centuries.  All the great
> religions have elaborate mythologies surrounding the divine act of
> Creation, but none of them adequately confronts the logical paradoxes
> inherent in the question that even children ask.
>        --Michio Kaku
>
>
>



-- 
Alexander "cussing-makes-my-arguments-even-more-valid" Surma

Re: [dev] picture

[Kris Maglione]

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 04:25:36PM +0200, Martin Kopta wrote:

http://imgur.com/oPOeW.png



I can't help but notice that that conjures two, erm... not 
unrelated images.


--
Kris Maglione

“Did God have a mother?” Children, when told that God made the heavens
and the earth, innocently ask whether God had a mother.  This
deceptively simple question has stumped the elders of the church and
embarrassed the finest theologians, precipitating some of the
thorniest theological debates over the centuries.  All the great
religions have elaborate mythologies surrounding the divine act of
Creation, but none of them adequately confronts the logical paradoxes
inherent in the question that even children ask.
--Michio Kaku

[dev] picture

[Martin Kopta]

http://imgur.com/oPOeW.png

Re: [dev] Interesting post about X11

[Alexander Teinum]

> Use Scheme.  See Scheme 48  for a nice, simple
> implementation to start hacking on.
>

This thread is about a replacement for X, but we’re also discussing
development of “regular” applications. What exactly would you
recommend Scheme for?


-- 
Best regards,

Alexander Teinum

Re: [dev] Fwd: [Patch] DWM: Add support for _NET_WM_DEMANDS_ATTENTION

[Kris Maglione]

On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 09:15:07AM +0200, Uli Schlachter wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Am 20.06.2010 00:19, Kris Maglione wrote:

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 11:42:15PM +0200, Uli Schlachter wrote:

a friend made me write the attached patch. It adds support for EWMH's
_NET_WM_DEMANDS_ATTENTION status by transfering it into ICCCM's urgency hint.


Why not just set c->isurgent rather than actually changing the 
wmhints? Apart from being needlessly complicated and probably 
pointless, it's directly contrary to ICCCM §4.1.2. The window 
manager isn't allowed to change client properties.


If I just set c->isurgent here, the next call to updatewmhints() might clear
that flag again (which btw also calls XSetWMHints(). Isn't that wrong, too?).


Of course it will, but it will anyway. When people change 
_WM_HINTS, they change it wholesale. They don't check whether 
someone's flipped any bits in the mean time, first.


--
Kris Maglione

Perhaps when a man has special knowledge and special powers like my
own, it rather encourages him to seek a complex explanation when a
simpler one is at hand.
--"Sherlock Holmes"

Re: [dev] Fwd: [Patch] DWM: Add support for _NET_WM_DEMANDS_ATTENTION

[Uli Schlachter]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Am 20.06.2010 00:19, Kris Maglione wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 11:42:15PM +0200, Uli Schlachter wrote:
>> a friend made me write the attached patch. It adds support for EWMH's
>> _NET_WM_DEMANDS_ATTENTION status by transfering it into ICCCM's urgency hint.
>>
>> I hope this is useful for others and perhaps this might even get included in 
>> the
>> main repository. I know this is not perfect, but the code for 
>> _NET_WM_FULLSCREEN
>> wasn't much worse than this. ;)
> 
> Why not just set c->isurgent rather than actually changing the 
> wmhints? Apart from being needlessly complicated and probably 
> pointless, it's directly contrary to ICCCM §4.1.2. The window 
> manager isn't allowed to change client properties.

I went for the easy route with this one. I knew that changing the hints will be
handled properly and thus it looked like the easier thing to do.

If I just set c->isurgent here, the next call to updatewmhints() might clear
that flag again (which btw also calls XSetWMHints(). Isn't that wrong, too?).

Anyway, attached is a new version of the patch. This one is now untested, sorry.
Technically, it would also have to set NetWMState, but then the state of
NetWMFullscreen would have to be remembered, so that that one can be set, too.

Cheers,
Uli
- -- 
- - Buck, when, exactly, did you lose your mind?
- - Three months ago. I woke up one morning married to a pineapple.
  An ugly pineapple... But I loved her!
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--- dwm.c.orig	2010-06-19 13:39:11.764762684 +0200
+++ dwm.c	2010-06-20 09:11:44.512261070 +0200
@@ -58,7 +58,7 @@
 enum { CurNormal, CurResize, CurMove, CurLast };/* cursor */
 enum { ColBorder, ColFG, ColBG, ColLast };  /* color */
 enum { NetSupported, NetWMName, NetWMState,
-   NetWMFullscreen, NetLast };  /* EWMH atoms */
+   NetWMFullscreen, NetWMDemandsAttention, NetLast }; /* EWMH atoms */
 enum { WMProtocols, WMDelete, WMState, WMLast };/* default atoms */
 enum { ClkTagBar, ClkLtSymbol, ClkStatusText, ClkWinTitle,
ClkClientWin, ClkRootWin, ClkLast }; /* clicks */
@@ -1302,13 +1302,24 @@ void
 clientmessage(XEvent *e) {
 	XClientMessageEvent *cme = &e->xclient;
 
-	if(cme->message_type == netatom[NetWMState] && cme->data.l[1] == netatom[NetWMFullscreen]) {
-		if(cme->data.l[0])
-			XChangeProperty(dpy, cme->window, netatom[NetWMState], XA_ATOM, 32,
+	if(cme->message_type == netatom[NetWMState]) {
+		Bool set = (cme->data.l[0] != 0) ? True : False;
+		if (cme->data.l[1] == netatom[NetWMFullscreen]) {
+			if (set)
+XChangeProperty(dpy, cme->window, netatom[NetWMState], XA_ATOM, 32,
 			PropModeReplace, (unsigned char*)&netatom[NetWMFullscreen], 1);
-		else
-			XChangeProperty(dpy, cme->window, netatom[NetWMState], XA_ATOM, 32,
+			else
+XChangeProperty(dpy, cme->window, netatom[NetWMState], XA_ATOM, 32,
 			PropModeReplace, (unsigned char*)0, 0);
+		}
+		if (cme->data.l[1] == netatom[NetWMDemandsAttention]) {
+			Client *c = wintoclient(cme->window);
+			if (!c)
+return;
+
+			c->isurgent = set;
+			drawbars();
+		}
 	}
 }
 
@@ -1517,6 +1528,7 @@ setup(void) {
 	netatom[NetWMName] = XInternAtom(dpy, "_NET_WM_NAME", False);
 	netatom[NetWMState] = XInternAtom(dpy, "_NET_WM_STATE", False);
 	netatom[NetWMFullscreen] = XInternAtom(dpy, "_NET_WM_STATE_FULLSCREEN", False);
+	netatom[NetWMDemandsAttention] = XInternAtom(dpy, "_NET_WM_STATE_DEMANDS_ATTENTION", False);
 	/* init cursors */
 	cursor[CurNormal] = XCreateFontCursor(dpy, XC_left_ptr);
 	cursor[CurResize] = XCreateFontCursor(dpy, XC_sizing);


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