Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Hugues Moretto-Viry hugues.more...@gmail.com wrote: [...] You shouldn't even pay attention to these messages. giggety! guess who's trollinig! Oh yeah, sorry for the noise... cheers! mar77i
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
2013/4/15 Martti Kühne mysat...@gmail.com giggety! guess who's trollinig! Oh yeah, sorry for the noise... cheers! mar77i Actually, the quote from my previous message was wrong, and I've noticed it too late. I shouldn't have mentioned message from Chris Down. And about trolling, I don't know. I don't post enough to be called troller or something similar. Regards -- H.Mo.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
2013/4/12 Chris Down ch...@chrisdown.name On 13 Apr 2013 05:07, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can the moralfags please fuck off already? Moralfags? What are you, twelve years old? Kindly go back to 4chan, it's where you belong with such lacking social skills. You shouldn't even pay attention to these messages. -- H.Mo.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 03:08:12AM +0400, Alexander Sedov wrote: Oh, look, how nice, religious wars at dev@suckless, and my favourite argument about Windows being crappy operating system with absolutely no justification. Religious people never justify their views, I guess. About the lock-in: drivers may be the case, but applications can not be lock-in. If somebody goes and creates amazingly beautiful operating system called, for example, Plot C right now, incompatible with either Linux drivers (which KolibriOS for example is compatible with), Windows drivers, and every app out there in the world because it doesn't conform to outdated standards nor does it attempts to provide compatibility, and then he'll cry about how all users are locked in and nobody uses his beauty, I'll call him stupid. It's not lock-in, it's he hasn't attempted to make his OS usable. Same thing applies, with two orders of magnitude lower, to Linux. Go open your package manager or open Github if you don't have one, and look what's there. Mostly some arcane shit, as fruitless as a proverbial fig tree, some clones of Windows apps, clones of clones of Windows apps, attempts to rewrite and revise libraries, magically make less buggy changing an API, and so on. We have so many music players, each better and slicker that others, but still unusable as hell. We have buggy applications written in GTK+ that crash depending on moon phase. We have I don't know how many libraries for data serialization and datetime handling and whatnot, and I'd bet fifty bucks that almost all of them started this bloatware sucks, let's come with something simple and funny to write. All that unbearable crap actually helps greatly. If you do not give up trying to make all that shit actually kind of work, because their developers thought only about fun and elegance, not usability, you learn a lot of new things, and that's very cool. But it's not for normal people, no. It's either for masochists or elitists. The mythical normal people are not so normal, and majority argument is and always was bullshit. Yes there is majority and one need to deal with it, but majority neved makes anything right or correct. Never made earth flat. Form your sentiment one gets impression that you think that situation is any better with windows software, and if you tink like that thats not even funny. As for normal users they need a good kick in a nuts to wake up and learn to learn tools that they use. If people got behind car wheel with atitude they get behind computer life would get terrible very quickly for everyone. As someone in some comment on slashdot stated: computig is only field where people come knowing nothing about it, work with computer for 10 years and still do no know shit about thier tool. That is pathetic. I bet my ass you have encounteres some data entrants in public places like bank or some such where entran selects every field with fuckin mouse, cause they cant bother to know that there ara button right under the finger that tkes one to next field. And I bet if you come to same entrant after couple of yers he/she will still be doing same thing. Pandering to ignorance and making things user friendly does not solve shit. Ever heard saying about making shit idiot proof? It's just a chalange for nature to make better idiots. To improve society one needs to educati people. Sure there is compasion and stuff, no everyone has time to achieve even moderatly in depth knowledge of computers. But man things should have limits, and sometimes it seems to me that in current world almost everyone is spouting endless compasion. Or maybe just everyone likes the concept of non existent personal responsibilty. And of course there always are such nice wendors like apple who are there to remove your confusion for a price of course.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On 2013-04-12 14:07, Sam Watkins wrote: One of the main suckless devs Uriel did commit suicide not long ago. Perhaps people here could refrain from saying kill yourself, out of respect to him. Or did he talk that way also? Until the time that the list regulars grow the social skills that they desperately need, the list will always be like this. Others are taking their cues from them. -dev has really degraded in quality over the last year, mostly because of certain voices becoming more active, and others becoming less so. Many people would rather stroke their own ego by slating others than have a civil discussion, with the end result that most threads become a meaningless circlejerk of hatred towards the thread poster with little to no rational discussion. Thankfully not everyone on this list is like this, but sadly it seems that we now have an equal distribution of those who do and don't understand the phrase civil discourse. If the majority of people on this list are as easily enraged in real life as they are on this list, they need some serious fucking therapy. If they aren't, then they need to realise that the purpose of this list isn't to facilitate the stroking of their internet genitalia. Chris pgpUHZ1SC8jGy.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Form your sentiment one gets impression that you think that situation is any better with windows software, and if you tink like that thats not even funny. It's not better in average, yes. But dispersion is much greater. There are IE search bars and there are nice professional tools. And one usually avoids IE bars. As for normal users they need a good kick in a nuts to wake up and learn to learn tools that they use. If people got behind car wheel with atitude they get behind computer life would get terrible very quickly for everyone. As someone in some comment on slashdot stated: computig is only field where people come knowing nothing about it, work with computer for 10 years and still do no know shit about thier tool. That is pathetic. No, they do not. Computers are complex. If you understand computing – or you think so – doesn't mean everybody should. They need to do what they need to do, not spending their time trying to figure how to do something with computer harder better faster stronger. Especially not reading those manual pages. Also, slashdot guy is wrong. Another example is buying physics against common cold, for example. I bet my ass you have encounteres some data entrants in public places like bank or some such where entran selects every field with fuckin mouse, cause they cant bother to know that there ara button right under the finger that tkes one to next field. And I bet if you come to same entrant after couple of yers he/she will still be doing same thing. Because a) they are accustomed to it, b) it works fine, c) nobody told them better? Also, I should say that most operators actually know about Tab. Pandering to ignorance and making things user friendly does not solve shit. Ever heard saying about making shit idiot proof? It's just a chalange for nature to make better idiots. To improve society one needs to educati people. You want to make everyone major in CS? I got some news for you, I guess. Making things user friendly DOES solve shit, I'm talking from experience. There is a trend to use Ubuntu arising here, and Ubuntu breaks in such funny ways with almost every update that WinXP just chokes envily. And people say hey, what the fuck is this shit, and they're back to Windows, where Microsoft ensures software compatibility and developers are not from Cloud Cuckoo Land, either. Those stong who survive are usually people who like programming to some extent. Or to Mac, y'know. My uncle uses Mac, and their support centers can do everything in a day. He even never upgrades his OS himself. I understand him, because nobody has got time for this shit out there. Sure there is compasion and stuff, no everyone has time to achieve even moderatly in depth knowledge of computers. But man things should have limits, and sometimes it seems to me that in current world almost everyone is spouting endless compasion. Or maybe just everyone likes the concept of non existent personal responsibilty. And of course there always are such nice wendors like apple who are there to remove your confusion for a price of course. I see nothing wrong in providing technical support for money. (And user-friendliness too). It's like taking advice from doctor: you pay for visit, although it seems that he has not done much. You pay him for the fact that he knows better than you. (Although Apple guys actually fix your stuff, eliminating the need to go to farmacy). If you can't bear the fact that somebody can know better, well, sucks to be you. To me, your mail is just another sign of elitism. People are so fucking stupid, they can't use broken software! Come on, spend five years, learn something about computers! Go tell your mom she needs to learn shit about Linux kernel, next time it breaks. Or that she needs to switch from Windows to OpenBSD because it's somehow better. You won't do this, right? So stop being a zealot. It does not suit you well.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Alexander Sedov alex0pla...@gmail.com wrote: I see nothing wrong in providing technical support for money. (And user-friendliness too). It's like taking advice from doctor: you pay for visit, although it seems that he has not done much. You pay him for the fact that he knows better than you. (Although Apple guys actually fix your stuff, eliminating the need to go to farmacy). This. Knowledge and money do not correlate where I come from - how else can those biggest idiots be so successful in capitalism? Money in more ancient times was about trust, and you pay him because you trust him with your health. So the doctor has, in that sense, as much responsibility for your health as you pay him, except his taking responsibility does not mean he can solve your health problem. Yes, apple do a comparably good job at taking responsibility and, obviously, and then responding to issues. But in the case of M$ Windows, you pay for a system that will likely abuse your cpu and bandwidth for cyber crime and spyware which must be such a profitable business that they are probably funding M$ by now, keeping up the fishy business just a wee longer. Thanks to windows 8 the dark age may finally have ended - when no one using this shit any more may become true. If you can't bear the fact that somebody can know better, well, sucks to be you. To me, your mail is just another sign of elitism. People are so fucking stupid, they can't use broken software! Come on, spend five years, learn something about computers! Go tell your mom she needs to learn shit about Linux kernel, next time it breaks. Or that she needs to switch from Windows to OpenBSD because it's somehow better. You won't do this, right? So stop being a zealot. It does not suit you well. The first question you need to answer yourself is what are your priorities. I'm currently working for non-engineers and have to struggle for my sanity sometimes from all the FUD and need to find something fun to tinker with. RADs are a great idea to work WITH, except for the poor guy who needs to work AROUND them - and that's the spot where code use, code reuse and code abuse will ever be done wrong, just because Excel is good enough for a 3d rendering engine, not many people have been using it as such. I guess Excel could boot linux, if you ask it nicely enough. If you work with computers you'll write programs that are useful and may use the subset of the features an OS and an environment provides you with. The point is, how hard is it for a programmer to write an alarm script based on cron and his favorite music player, and then, exactly the opposite happens when you switch the target audience, how in the world can you let a non-savvy do that. Then we obviously need more .NET Stop asking the question in a way that requires .NET. Well, and then there is scratch, obviously [1]. Where again, most people will give up on scratch when they can't make things work like they have in mind, because they just don't care to think about all the edge cases and details they suddenly have to take care of. cheers! mar77i [1] http://scratch.mit.edu/
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
This. Knowledge and money do not correlate where I come from - how else can those biggest idiots be so successful in capitalism? Money in more ancient times was about trust, and you pay him because you trust him with your health. So the doctor has, in that sense, as much responsibility for your health as you pay him, except his taking responsibility does not mean he can solve your health problem. Yes, apple do a comparably good job at taking responsibility and, obviously, and then responding to issues. But in the case of M$ Windows, you pay for a system that will likely abuse your cpu and bandwidth for cyber crime and spyware which must be such a profitable business that they are probably funding M$ by now, keeping up the fishy business just a wee longer. Thanks to windows 8 the dark age may finally have ended - when no one using this shit any more may become true. Yeah, Win8 is pitiful, but Win7 was a great breakthrough compared to WinXP. Also, common sense protects you from spyware rather well. The bad thing is, I don't see any alternatives to Win7 for clueless user. MacOsX is just too expensive, Ubuntu is synonym for unreliable, and other Linux distributions and OS like like FreeBSD still lack is usability and support. Hopefully everyone will eventually switch to Kolibri, but that's only my dream. The first question you need to answer yourself is what are your priorities. I'm currently working for non-engineers and have to struggle for my sanity sometimes from all the FUD and need to find something fun to tinker with. RADs are a great idea to work WITH, except for the poor guy who needs to work AROUND them - and that's the spot where code use, code reuse and code abuse will ever be done wrong, just because Excel is good enough for a 3d rendering engine, not many people have been using it as such. I guess Excel could boot linux, if you ask it nicely enough. If you work with computers you'll write programs that are useful and may use the subset of the features an OS and an environment provides you with. The point is, how hard is it for a programmer to write an alarm script based on cron and his favorite music player, and then, exactly the opposite happens when you switch the target audience, how in the world can you let a non-savvy do that. Then we obviously need more .NET I'm not sure about needing more dotnet, but I'd like to point out that most programmers write stuff for non-programmers nowadays. So, letting non-savvy people do stuff is the new reality. About code reuse and code abuse, I couldn't agree more. Stop asking the question in a way that requires .NET. Well, and then there is scratch, obviously [1]. Where again, most people will give up on scratch when they can't make things work like they have in mind, because they just don't care to think about all the edge cases and details they suddenly have to take care of. If beer and women are not the answer, then you're asking wrong questions :). From my point of view, dotnet is mediocre realization of great idea: language interoperability by design and free JIT for everyone. The problem is, learning C# cannot make one a good programmer, I've seen many Javaists that have no frigging clue about what's call stack, how long does it take to compare strings, et cetera. Also, I've never seen any actual Scratch programs aside from short flash animations and games. I'm rather surprised that something of this level of quality/usefulness originated in MIT.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Alexander Sedov alex0pla...@gmail.com wrote: From my point of view, dotnet is mediocre realization of great idea: language interoperability by design and free JIT for everyone. The problem is, learning C# cannot make one a good programmer, I've seen many Javaists that have no frigging clue about what's call stack, how long does it take to compare strings, et cetera. Also, I've never seen any actual Scratch programs aside from short flash animations and games. I'm rather surprised that something of this level of quality/usefulness originated in MIT. point in case. I'm glad I use more than just an interface but the computer that provides everyone else with an interface. unlike most users. :) cheers! mar77i
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Alexander Sedov alex0pla...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure about needing more dotnet, but I'd like to point out that most programmers write stuff for non-programmers nowadays. So, letting non-savvy people do stuff is the new reality. Oh and, how comes you're writing a terminal emulator with your views? Because writing stuff for geeks is easier? cheers! mar77i
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Oh and, how comes you're writing a terminal emulator with your views? Because writing stuff for geeks is easier? Hey, I'm not writing terminal emulator. I'm submitting patches to st and get shouted at by __20h__, and that's it. But the answer is: because writing stuff for myself is usually worth my time, and because, well, I'm not a professional programmer.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Alexander Sedov alex0pla...@gmail.com wrote: Oh and, how comes you're writing a terminal emulator with your views? Because writing stuff for geeks is easier? Hey, I'm not writing terminal emulator. I'm submitting patches to st and get shouted at by __20h__, and that's it. But the answer is: because writing stuff for myself is usually worth my time, and because, well, I'm not a professional programmer. professional may not be the right term for being picky about things, still, computers are pickiest. Also, turns out I confused you with this thread's OP. Good trading in our little bazaar. ;-) cheers! mar77i
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
uh, I intended to say, they're picky by the bit there.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
What I can take away from the collective thoughts above is this: effort spent trying to make windows better is generally wasted, and contributes to the problem of the proliferation of shitty software. I agree with this. As for normal users they need a good kick in a nuts to wake up and learn to learn tools that they use. If people got behind car wheel with atitude they get behind computer life would get terrible very quickly for everyone. As someone in some comment on slashdot stated: computig is only field where people come knowing nothing about it, work with computer for 10 years and still do no know shit about thier tool. That is pathetic. But I ask, what is the point of crafting a beautifully minimalist system if its not accessible? If your answer to this is: screw those people who can not understand our system - they are too stupid to appreciate it anyways, then haven't you committed the same wrong that your fundamental principle of simplicity values so highly? Anyhow, it might be good to get some more experience with Plan 9 and suckless programs / systems / code style before posting too much here... so that people will not have cause to abuse you. I've loaded (old) plan9 isos from Lucent in a virtualbox, and built run Inferno hosted on windows and linux, but I haven't spent any significant time with them. It's cool how some ideas like /proc percolate upwards into linux land though. As for suckless programs, I used dwm last summer during an internship (on ubuntu though ironically), and it was great! I have since switched to debian + xmonad. st is a cool project and I will likely continue to use it. You could write your own terminal or try to port st for 'fun'. You might like to write a portable terminal in standard C or C++, [...] This is what I'm going to do. It's really more a learning exercise for me, I am still a student after all. I accept the fact that probably nobody will use or contribute to my project. My aim was not to start a flame war over windows here, I apologize if I created any noise. I really only still run windows because I play some games which only run on windows. Steam runs on Ubuntu but it's still a little premature, some severe memory management bugs. It looks like win8 is going to fail hard, and I think this in combination with Valve's linux push will enable a more robust ecosystem for commercial grade games shipping to linux.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On 12/04/2013, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: I really only still run windows because I play some games which only run on windows. Wine?
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
can the moralfags please fuck off already?
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On 13 Apr 2013 05:07, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can the moralfags please fuck off already? Moralfags? What are you, twelve years old? Kindly go back to 4chan, it's where you belong with such lacking social skills.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Well this whole thread is truly new and exciting. I'm glad to see how far it's come since the 800 billion other times I've read it. On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 4:57 PM, Strake strake...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/2013, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: I really only still run windows because I play some games which only run on windows. Wine?
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
agree On Apr 12, 2013 11:07 PM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can the moralfags please fuck off already?
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Apr 12, 2013 5:07 PM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can the moralfags please fuck off already? Yes thank you. This was about a windows port of st. No I do not think YOU are going to enlighten us about this history of unix, the reaches of space or anything another windows bashing thread hasn't done one million times...
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
What are you writing C++ code if you could use Xming or even cygwin to just compile the actual st on windows?
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On 04/11/13 17:13, Max DeLiso wrote: On Apr 11, 2013 11:05 AM, Martti Kühne mysat...@gmail.com mailto:mysat...@gmail.com wrote: What are you writing C++ code if you could use Xming or even cygwin to just compile the actual st on windows? Well it does add an extra layer of abstraction which could be a source of bugs. Also that would make contributing significantly more difficult for the Windows people. definitevly debugging cygwin programs is almost impossible (try it by yourself), but anyway.. what's the point of using C++? and well.. i guess you know that st depends on X and pty. and windows have none of those things? and well. who cares about windows nowadays?
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: Well it does add an extra layer of abstraction which could be a source of bugs. Also that would make contributing significantly more difficult for the Windows people. People use windows because they don't know any better. They don't even want to know any better. Let's write suckless code and then hide it under three layers of dysfunctional GUI and press F1 for help... I think not even F1 will help you with your virus-infected, self-destructive, noob-friendly piece of shit OS. That said, I remember good times with windows. Back when I downloaded and installed $actual_os. On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:17 PM, pancake panc...@youterm.com wrote: definitevly debugging cygwin programs is almost impossible (try it by yourself), but anyway.. what's the point of using C++? and well.. i guess you know that st depends on X and pty. and windows have none of those things? and well. who cares about windows nowadays? Never did that. Thanks for the heads-up, although I was already under the impression that on windows nothing at all can be debugged, because, well, where's the fucking source to anything? cheers! mar77i
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
You might me interested in ConEmu http://code.google.com/p/conemu-maximus5/
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On 04/11/13 17:23, Martti Kühne wrote: Never did that. Thanks for the heads-up, although I was already under the impression that on windows nothing at all can be debugged, because, well, where's the fucking source to anything? who needs the source to debug anything?
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Apr 11, 2013 11:23 AM, Martti Kühne mysat...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: Well it does add an extra layer of abstraction which could be a source of bugs. Also that would make contributing significantly more difficult for the Windows people. People use windows because they don't know any better. They don't even want to know any better. Let's write suckless code and then hide it under three layers of dysfunctional GUI and press F1 for help... I think not even F1 will help you with your virus-infected, self-destructive, noob-friendly piece of shit OS. That said, I remember good times with windows. Back when I downloaded and installed $actual_os. I completely agree that Windows is a legacy OS, but plenty of people are still forced to use it for many legitimate reasons. On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:17 PM, pancake panc...@youterm.com wrote: definitevly debugging cygwin programs is almost impossible (try it by yourself), but anyway.. what's the point of using C++? and well.. i guess you know that st depends on X and pty. and windows have none of those things? and well. who cares about windows nowadays? Never did that. Thanks for the heads-up, although I was already under the impression that on windows nothing at all can be debugged, because, well, where's the fucking source to anything? You can actually get symbols for large parts of the internals. The documentation is generally quite good too. And for the undocumented parts you can always reverse. cheers! mar77i
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Greetings. On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 17:48:11 +0200 Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: I know what you're probably thinking. A) That's stupid Windows is the reason why we lack behind in software development by more than 20 years. Software is unusable, proprietary and programmers are taught that things should be that way and only because Redmond created this environment. Apple and Google are creating the next backstep by binding developer re‐ sources in complete separate environments. All people spreading Windows should be laughed at and sent back to school for learning some real job. The same applies for people spreading Google or Apple. People spreading the web should be shot, because they are the reason for the next 10 years of technological standstill. Sincerely, Christoph Lohmann
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Apr 11, 2013 11:54 AM, Christoph Lohmann 2...@r-36.net wrote: Greetings. On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 17:48:11 +0200 Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: I know what you're probably thinking. A) That's stupid Windows is the reason why we lack behind in software development by more than 20 years. Software is unusable, proprietary and programmers are taught that things should be that way and only because Redmond created this environment. If windows was totally unusable would it have succeeded in the way that it has? Windows is certainly not ideal in any sense but you can't deny its ongoing success commercially. Apple and Google are creating the next backstep by binding developer re‐ sources in complete separate environments. What does this even mean? I could try to tease some sense out of it but I'll leave that burden to you... All people spreading Windows should be laughed at and sent back to school for learning some real job. The same applies for people spreading Google or Apple. People spreading the web should be shot, because they are the reason for the next 10 years of technological standstill. The web is the future of computing, that much is evident. You can hole yourself up in your little imaginary world where users don't matter, nobody actually gets paid, and the sole criteria for judging software systems lies in their strict adherence to a bunch vaguely articulated idealist principles. I'll be out here in the real world, with the rest of the sane people.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Kill yourself. On Apr 11, 2013 12:42 PM, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 11, 2013 11:54 AM, Christoph Lohmann 2...@r-36.net wrote: Greetings. On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 17:48:11 +0200 Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: I know what you're probably thinking. A) That's stupid Windows is the reason why we lack behind in software development by more than 20 years. Software is unusable, proprietary and programmers are taught that things should be that way and only because Redmond created this environment. If windows was totally unusable would it have succeeded in the way that it has? Windows is certainly not ideal in any sense but you can't deny its ongoing success commercially. Apple and Google are creating the next backstep by binding developer re‐ sources in complete separate environments. What does this even mean? I could try to tease some sense out of it but I'll leave that burden to you... All people spreading Windows should be laughed at and sent back to school for learning some real job. The same applies for people spreading Google or Apple. People spreading the web should be shot, because they are the reason for the next 10 years of technological standstill. The web is the future of computing, that much is evident. You can hole yourself up in your little imaginary world where users don't matter, nobody actually gets paid, and the sole criteria for judging software systems lies in their strict adherence to a bunch vaguely articulated idealist principles. I'll be out here in the real world, with the rest of the sane people.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
The web is the future of computing, that much is evident. The web is not even the present of computing. Most humans access the Internet using custom clients (apps) on mobile devices. -sl
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:45:48PM -0400, Jacob Todd wrote: Kill yourself. Please can we try not to be needlessly dramatic and unpleasant here? The tone of this list gets quite hard to handle sometimes, and seems to have been going more in this direction lately. I know the prevailing sentiment here is that people should be treated with the respect their comments deserve, which is fair enough, but comments like this are massive overkill and really turn me away from the community. Which sucks, as I like what we're working towards here.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:46 PM, s...@9front.org wrote: The web is the future of computing, that much is evident. The web is not even the present of computing. Most humans access the Internet using custom clients (apps) on mobile devices. Really depends how you define web doesn't it? If by web you're referring specifically to HTTP, which the majority of those custom clients are using to transmit data, then yes, the web is the present of computing. Even if you define it more generally as programming with some kind of network interaction involved, it's still the present of computing. In fact the only definitions of web that it fails this test is the very narrow definition which refers only to HTML being loaded into a browser. (And though facebook has shown that this approach on mobile is still not really viable yet, it is still being worked on). Look at firefoxOS. No consensus has really emerged yet on this, though it seems to be the direction many are headed.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Nick suckless-...@njw.me.uk wrote: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:45:48PM -0400, Jacob Todd wrote: Kill yourself. Please can we try not to be needlessly dramatic and unpleasant here? seconding this! It's juvenile and counterproductive.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Really depends how you define Kill yourself. -sl
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Greetings. On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:22:22 +0200 Nick suckless-...@njw.me.uk wrote: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:45:48PM -0400, Jacob Todd wrote: The tone of this list gets quite hard to handle sometimes, and seems to have been going more in this direction lately. No, that’s due to the people entering this list. The loud ones seem to be the generation of blinded Windows and Gnome developers. The reaction to such people will always be the same, when they have no profound rea‐ son for their opinion and only speak for their uninformed minds. I know the prevailing sentiment here is that people should be treated with the respect their comments deserve, which is fair enough, but comments like this are massive overkill and really turn me away from the community. Which sucks, as I like what we're working towards here. There is no reason to start sentiment for the people this project worked against all the time. This will only kill our principles. Do you really want st to have a Go backend SDK for web development, just because it’s hip and the node.js backend looks better when I’m drunk? Censored sex‐ ist joke. Sorry, you guys didn’t fight enough against censorship of the Internet. Your bad. Sincerely, Christoph Lohmann
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: A) That's stupid B) Therefore OP must be stupid. I don't think you're stupid, because the few times I've had to use cmd.exe, I've thought about this myself. But I do think it's a waste of time. How much do you use the console in Windows? Very few native Windows programs are written for it, and the ones that exist certainly do not expect or take advantage of VT102 emulation for curses functionality. So the benefit of the port is minimal. I think you are just trying to shoehorn the paradigm of one OS into another. On the other hand, I think a nicer console program without terminal emulation and nicer GUI features, along the lines of 9term, would be much simpler to implement and may be worth the cost.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On 04/11/2013 09:41, Max DeLiso wrote: If windows was totally unusable would it have succeeded in the way that it has? Windows is certainly not ideal in any sense but you can't deny its ongoing success commercially. Windows (and before it, DOS) was never an example of well-designed software. Its success had nothing to do with its technical merits. Rob Landley has given some talks recently, in which he points out how the bandwagon or snowball effect has elevated and locked in the leaders in various technological niches. DOS/Windows succeeded simply because people wanted to use what everyone else was using. In the late 80's/early 90's: CP/M had reached a dead end. The Unix world was fragmented and still seen as aimed at big iron or high-end workstations. It often required expensive license fees. Linux and PC-BSD were either not invented yet or still too rough around the edges to appeal to the mass market. By the time they were ready enough, Microsoft had already built an insurmountable lead. Apple and Amiga had products for personal use, but unlike the PC, they weren't aimed at the office or business user. DOS/Windows won the business market for personal computing almost by default, and Microsoft used that advantage to build their empire. People forget how much enthusiasm there was for DOS/Windows back in the early days. It was the Revolution, the People's Computer, striking a blow against big iron and the IT priesthood. There was a thriving shareware community...
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Joseph Xu joseph...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: A) That's stupid B) Therefore OP must be stupid. I don't think you're stupid, because the few times I've had to use cmd.exe, I've thought about this myself. But I do think it's a waste of time. How much do you use the console in Windows? Very few native Windows programs are written for it, and the ones that exist certainly do not expect or take advantage of VT102 emulation for curses functionality. So the benefit of the port is minimal. I think you are just trying to shoehorn the paradigm of one OS into another. You make a great point. Almost all programs which depend on curses already would need to be ported to NT anyways, and there are already (as mentioned before), methods for doing this which already work. On the other hand, I think a nicer console program without terminal emulation and nicer GUI features, along the lines of 9term, would be much simpler to implement and may be worth the cost. The cost is minimal, I enjoy doing writing this code because I inevitably end up learning more about system design. In fact last time I was working on this project, I ended up finding CVE-2013-0076 :). I will reconsider inclusion of terminal emulation. Thanks for the input!
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On 04/11/13 19:24, Joseph Xu wrote: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: A) That's stupid B) Therefore OP must be stupid. I don't think you're stupid, because the few times I've had to use cmd.exe, I've thought about this myself. But I do think it's a waste of time. How much do you use the console in Windows? Very few native Windows programs are written for it, and the ones that exist certainly do not expect or take advantage of VT102 emulation for curses functionality. So the benefit of the port is minimal. I think you are just trying to shoehorn the paradigm of one OS into another. On the other hand, I think a nicer console program without terminal emulation and nicer GUI features, along the lines of 9term, would be much simpler to implement and may be worth the cost. in fact th way windows access the terminal is by API and not by ANSI, so if you want to handle ^C you have to hook a callback to a function and if you want to print colors on screen you have to call some functions to setup a new palete and so on. what cygwin does is the same as I did in r_cons (inside r2). parse every buffer that will be printed on screen and change every ANSI code by a buffer flush and a function call to change the color. also, the api doesnt permits the same features as ansi permits, and flushing so many times results in much slower rendering. i remember that there was an ansi.sys driver that was doing this.. but wonder what happened with that.. but well. its windows, and nobody cares. in fact, last time i had windows at home was around 1999... and well, i have tried to avoid jobs where i had to use w32... to try to keep my mind sane. Rejecting this kind of jobs is my way to try to make the world a better place. theorically the new shell in windows is powershell which is something like a object oriented shell (similar to ruby), with nice features that nobody care because they only work on windows. also i think that the best way to use windows was installing openssh from cygwin and then using putty in fullscreen to connect to localhost. but anyway.. after 14 years without using it, i can only say that i would love to see how microsoft dies and stops releasing crappy hardware and software (surface and winphone are the ultimate abomination), and they didnt stopped their monopolistic practices imposing their by pushing money software to governments and hardware manufacturers... tell me how many laptops can you buy on a phisical store that didnt come with windows preinstalled. (for example) fuck that shit --pancake
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013, at 10:59, Max DeLiso wrote: My aim is to create a minimalist terminal emulator for windows. I want a project whose relationship to the cmd/conhost/csrss triad is analogous to the relationship between st and xterm/x. I'm going to try and lift out of st all of the platform agnostic bits which I am able to, and generally use it as a reference for terminal emulation routines. If it doesn't work _with_ the cmd/conhost/csrss triad, what programs are going to run in it? Cygwin, I suppose. The problem, in general, with unix-ish terminal emulators on windows is they don't work with applications designed to run in the console.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Max DeLiso dixit: If windows was totally unusable would it have succeeded in the way that it Windows® does not have succeeded. Until and including version 7, it’s brought new people, who IMHO do not belong in front of a computer except with nōn-root rights and having hired, say, a student as their personal sysadmin, in. But no Real Programmers use it. With version 8, it’s just AOL all over again. (And interestingly enough, today someone in IRC said Geocities popped up too, but I couldn’t easily look as it required a Google login. And yes it’s below .google.com…) bye, //mirabilos -- Sorry, I’m annoyed today and you came by as an Arch user. These are the perfect victims for any crime against humanity, like systemd, feminism or social democracy. -- Christoph Lohmann on dev@suckless.org
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On 11/04/2013, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: I completely agree that Windows is a legacy OS, but plenty of people are still forced to use it for many legitimate reasons. Forced? How? At knifepoint?
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Apr 11, 2013 5:04 PM, Strake strake...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/04/2013, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: I completely agree that Windows is a legacy OS, but plenty of people are still forced to use it for many legitimate reasons. Forced? How? At knifepoint? Lock-in. Be it device drivers, applications, management, support contracts, etc. It's no accident, as pancake asserted previously.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
2013/4/11 Strake strake...@gmail.com On 11/04/2013, Max DeLiso maxdel...@gmail.com wrote: I completely agree that Windows is a legacy OS, but plenty of people are still forced to use it for many legitimate reasons. Forced? How? At knifepoint? Because of my work. I'm using PL7Pro which only exists on Windows. Maybe, you're able to port it to Linux, then contact me. -- H.Mo.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Oh, look, how nice, religious wars at dev@suckless, and my favourite argument about Windows being crappy operating system with absolutely no justification. Religious people never justify their views, I guess. About the lock-in: drivers may be the case, but applications can not be lock-in. If somebody goes and creates amazingly beautiful operating system called, for example, Plot C right now, incompatible with either Linux drivers (which KolibriOS for example is compatible with), Windows drivers, and every app out there in the world because it doesn't conform to outdated standards nor does it attempts to provide compatibility, and then he'll cry about how all users are locked in and nobody uses his beauty, I'll call him stupid. It's not lock-in, it's he hasn't attempted to make his OS usable. Same thing applies, with two orders of magnitude lower, to Linux. Go open your package manager or open Github if you don't have one, and look what's there. Mostly some arcane shit, as fruitless as a proverbial fig tree, some clones of Windows apps, clones of clones of Windows apps, attempts to rewrite and revise libraries, magically make less buggy changing an API, and so on. We have so many music players, each better and slicker that others, but still unusable as hell. We have buggy applications written in GTK+ that crash depending on moon phase. We have I don't know how many libraries for data serialization and datetime handling and whatnot, and I'd bet fifty bucks that almost all of them started this bloatware sucks, let's come with something simple and funny to write. All that unbearable crap actually helps greatly. If you do not give up trying to make all that shit actually kind of work, because their developers thought only about fun and elegance, not usability, you learn a lot of new things, and that's very cool. But it's not for normal people, no. It's either for masochists or elitists.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
Please can we try not to be needlessly dramatic and unpleasant here? The tone of this list gets quite hard to handle sometimes, and seems to have been going more in this direction lately. I know the prevailing sentiment here is that people should be treated with the respect their comments deserve, which is fair enough, but comments like this are massive overkill and really turn me away from the community. Which sucks, as I like what we're working towards here. There's plenty of us here who follow the list and love the Suckless effort and Suckless software but don't like that style. Not my place to try to change it, but you're not alone. You're probably not in the minority. On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Nick suckless-...@njw.me.uk wrote: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:45:48PM -0400, Jacob Todd wrote: Kill yourself. Please can we try not to be needlessly dramatic and unpleasant here? The tone of this list gets quite hard to handle sometimes, and seems to have been going more in this direction lately. I know the prevailing sentiment here is that people should be treated with the respect their comments deserve, which is fair enough, but comments like this are massive overkill and really turn me away from the community. Which sucks, as I like what we're working towards here.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
I'm pretty sure angry people shouting at each other are always in the minority. Hey, look, webcomics agree! http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comicsid=2939 -Nimi
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:59:46AM -0400, Max DeLiso wrote: A) That's stupid Misguided instead? Very few people who would appreciate a simple terminal are likely to be using Windows. (I'm one of them.) I doubt you'll get many competent coders to contribute. (I'm not one of them.) And it's such a punishing environment that I don't know how satisfying it will be to say: Well, at least my terminal is adequate! cygwin + bug.n + an xmouse simulator (or inferno or Acme SAC, if you're into that sort of thing) is about as sane as it gets now on Windows. They are adequate, if your job (like mine) requires this stinky OS. I'd rather see good programmers working on *nix or cross-platform programs than spending time on the endless time-suck that is trying to clean up MS's mess. BTW, st compiles and runs under Cygwin / X, both in the cygwin multiwindow X and with a real WM like dwm. My aim is to create a minimalist terminal emulator for windows. I want a project whose relationship to the cmd/conhost/csrss triad is analogous to the relationship between st and xterm/x. ? This doesn't make much sense to me. wvt is to cmd as st is to xterm? (term to shell as term to term?) That all said, I'll give it a try. But... https://github.com/maxdeliso/wvt How do you compile this? $ make -f makefile.win32 release make: *** No rule to make target `Release\wvt.obj' , needed by `wvt.exe'. Stop.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
People use windows because they don't know any better. If most people are using it, there start to be reasons other than ignorance. For instance, in legal discovery, we don't have the privilege of telling the judge: Sorry, this evidence was generated by people using lousy software on a lousy OS, so we're not going to discover it. Tell the defendant to get a real OS and commit the offence again. Or, we could run catdoc on everything. virus-infected, self-destructive, noob-friendly piece of shit OS. Noob-friendly?! I can't think of a modern OS with a more counter-intuitive, hostile, byzantine interface than Windows XP / 7. (I know nothing of Windows 8.) Android is noob-friendly, a bit. Commodore-64s were noob-friendly. Windows? No.
Re: [dev] [st] windows port?
One of the main suckless devs Uriel did commit suicide not long ago. Perhaps people here could refrain from saying kill yourself, out of respect to him. Or did he talk that way also? Did the same people spit the dummy, when dwm was ported to Windoze? There are already tolerable terminals for windows, such as rxvt (msys), and half of putty (which you could use with a local sshd / telnetd). DOS programs (e.g. edit.com) don't work with Unix terminals. You could write your own terminal or try to port st for 'fun'. You might like to write a portable terminal in standard C or C++, perhaps using SDL or a framebuffer, which would be useful on systems without X or Windoze. Someone did this already to some extent. Anyhow, it might be good to get some more experience with Plan 9 and suckless programs / systems / code style before posting too much here... so that people will not have cause to abuse you. Basic HTML is not bad in itself, but modern HTML + CSS + DOM + JS + multitude of incompatible browsers is ridiculously sucky. Basic HTTP is not bad, simplified with minor changes it could be like a plain-text 9p. I'd say X11 sucks almost as much as Windows; and in some ways, 9p sucks more than http. But UNIX is a lot better than DOS. Sam
