Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
> I have experienced complete system freezes when unplugging displays > with quite recent (2014) MacBooks and current OSX versions. btw, I always had a lot of fun going to the local apple store, muting a mac and typing cat /dev/urandom in the terminal, which caused the mac (i don't know the exact model) to freeze for ~20 minutes.
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
On 26 October 2016 at 02:05, wrote: > On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 12:53:36PM +0200, Anselm R Garbe wrote: >> To bring it to one sentence, Apple is about providing their stuff as >> incompatible as possible with all non-Apple stuff. […] proceeds with >> the keyboard layout, > > Unh, other than swapping Mod1 and Mod4, they've usually been the most > consistent layout and non-minuscule keys unlike just about every other > laptop manufacturer out there selling *consumer* grade keyboards. And is > there even really any agreement on what a laptop keyboard layout should > be? Apple has swapped a couple of more things in the default qwerty layout, already long ago in its pre-hipster supply age. And is has kept its totally non-standard decisions all the way long until today. But also its key combinations (shortcuts) for certain things are totally absurd from a traditional control key viewpoint. > They've just not been consistent in key switch quality. I wasn't talking about the mediocre keyboard quality of Apple laptops, which is far inferior when compared to the old IBM Thinkpad keyboard quality and has never reached any competitive level on this. I agree though, that there is not much difference among keyboards nowadays and they all kind of suck. Probably the Lenovo TPs have still a slight edge on this. But I switched to Dell a couple of years ago, since Lenovo put me completely off with his hideous clickpad introduction (which they have reverted in more recent models, but I don't care atm). >> goes on with accessory cable adapters and doesn't end with their >> software stack consisting of propietary Apple-only protocols > > Thunderbolt in practice: implemented in software rather than firmware, > no hotplug for a long time if at all ever. Which other consumers even > see it? It totally sucks. It's a nightmare. I have experienced complete system freezes when unplugging displays with quite recent (2014) MacBooks and current OSX versions. *** I am experiencing Apple users suffering the Stockholm syndrome, unwilling to "notice" the obvious problems or talking them away. I kind of have to conclude, that Apple marketing must do some serious brain wash to its potential customers, otherwise I cannot explain the idiots waiting like lemmings in artificially created queues in front of Apple stores when Apple starts to sell a little evolved "new" product. But perhaps those are all paid and part of the marketing strategy. The strategy isn't any new. All teenagers all over the world already know the effect from night club operators. Outside its a buzzing queue, inside no party ;) Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 12:53:36PM +0200, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > To bring it to one sentence, Apple is about providing their stuff as > incompatible as possible with all non-Apple stuff. […] proceeds with > the keyboard layout, Unh, other than swapping Mod1 and Mod4, they've usually been the most consistent layout and non-minuscule keys unlike just about every other laptop manufacturer out there selling *consumer* grade keyboards. And is there even really any agreement on what a laptop keyboard layout should be? They've just not been consistent in key switch quality. > goes on with accessory cable adapters and doesn't end with their > software stack consisting of propietary Apple-only protocols Thunderbolt in practice: implemented in software rather than firmware, no hotplug for a long time if at all ever. Which other consumers even see it? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
i don't care about their sins. their keyboard and their software is unusable, the rest doesn't matter enough.
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
while my mac experience is limited to only 1 year, i can say that sticking to mavericks (10.9.5) and el capitan (10.11.6) have been exceptionally stable. Some antivirus programs such as mcafee have been known to corrupt files on the mac as was our issue previously but have since switched to a dedicated mac AV and no further issues have occurred. I think the point that could have been missed here is that IBM is not only using mac, they are also using JAMF a SCCM management suite for the mac. It is very powerful in its ability to automate deployments, set up "zero config", and essentially eliminate for the most part the typical setup and maintenance of windows systems. One can still achieve better with Linux but in the commercial markets Jamf+Mac is better than the windows solutions. As with any deployments and software you never want to be on the bleeding edge either unless you like death by a thousand cuts. we have only recently updated to 10.11.6 and will wait for Sierra (just released) until were confident it too has matured. With jamf its simple to deploy the latest software, set up one policy to download the package, then later after it has been downloaded a separate workflow to trigger the install. Jamf is able to update systems not on the company network which in my experience i have not seen from windows and SCCM but thats not to say it could not be set up for them as well. With a special program (name eludes me at the moment) the company macs can be forced to call home from anywhere in the world and if wiped they can be reimaged remotely! pretty nifty. Apple has a lot of issues, but the Mac+JAMF combo is powerful enough that i believe IBM really is saving $500 a person, if apple wasn't so expensive it would easily grow its base rapidly. But again its not perfect, just better than windows. On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > On 25 October 2016 at 13:34, Laslo Hunhold wrote: >> what are the really compelling reasons for a Mac user to make the >> switch to Linux/BSD? How can we convince people to make the switch? > > The only reason for an experienced Mac user doing the switch is, > because he wants to gain more control over his hardware (and > software). I would consider this is a natural desire when reaching a > certain level of competence with IT technology. > Some people are lazy and cope with the environment they are used to. > Some are willing to progress the edge further and will then drop the > straightjacket. Some will never learn. > > Cheers, > Anselm >
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
On 25 October 2016 at 13:34, Laslo Hunhold wrote: > what are the really compelling reasons for a Mac user to make the > switch to Linux/BSD? How can we convince people to make the switch? The only reason for an experienced Mac user doing the switch is, because he wants to gain more control over his hardware (and software). I would consider this is a natural desire when reaching a certain level of competence with IT technology. Some people are lazy and cope with the environment they are used to. Some are willing to progress the edge further and will then drop the straightjacket. Some will never learn. Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
Laslo Hunhold wrote: How can we convince people to make the switch? Should we? I became a Unix/Linux user because I got tired of BSODs. Let them experience such moments with their systems and if they won't then it's okay. After all, does it make sense how many people use what we use? My $0.02 Cág
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:53:36 +0200 Anselm R Garbe wrote: Hey Anselm, > I kind of disagree here. I'm using both, PC laptops and MacBooks and > besides the aluminium case and the screen, MacBooks are in no way > superior or more reliable than the competition -- both in terms > hardware and software. I wasn't talking about us pros, but the consumer market. We know how to take care of our systems, we so to say are "mature". > To bring it to one sentence, Apple is about providing their stuff as > incompatible as possible with all non-Apple stuff. Yes this is true, however, as horrible as this monoculture is, it is heaven for all the "immature" users. > It starts with the power cable, proceeds with the keyboard layout, > goes on with accessory cable adapters and doesn't end with their > software stack consisting of propietary Apple-only protocols to gain > the "best experience" (a recent example is Apples new earpot -- the > best voice quality can only be got when using a recent iPhone). > > I don't really like this. I don't support this monoculturalism. I didn't say I'm supporting it, but when discussing these things we should also try to have a neutral viewpoint and assess why Apple is doing things they are doing and why it is successful. We should not aim for "consumers" at suckless.org, this is not our purpose. We can criticize the fact that Apple does not allow users to really mature beyond developing iOS or macOS apps, but apart from that, what are the really compelling reasons for a Mac user to make the switch to Linux/BSD? How can we convince people to make the switch? With best regards Laslo -- Laslo Hunhold
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
On 23 October 2016 at 23:44, Laslo Hunhold wrote: > "People who are really serious about software should make their > own hardware." > > And this approach works: Macs are reliable and used to be very reliable > machines, as already pointed out in this thread IBM found that out as > well a while ago. I kind of disagree here. I'm using both, PC laptops and MacBooks and besides the aluminium case and the screen, MacBooks are in no way superior or more reliable than the competition -- both in terms hardware and software. To bring it to one sentence, Apple is about providing their stuff as incompatible as possible with all non-Apple stuff. It starts with the power cable, proceeds with the keyboard layout, goes on with accessory cable adapters and doesn't end with their software stack consisting of propietary Apple-only protocols to gain the "best experience" (a recent example is Apples new earpot -- the best voice quality can only be got when using a recent iPhone). I don't really like this. I don't support this monoculturalism. -Anselm
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
> not to mention > the bad design of their hardware and it's overprice. I use a Airbook (version 2012) hardware (without MacOSX, only slackware). I observed proper hardware design. Technically comparable alternatives are (at least) equally priced. Show me a laptop that has no defect in its ACPI tables. Kurt
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
Btw, Laslo's post reminded me that I in fact posted this article about the topic on my feed. cheers! mar77i [0] https://medium.com/chris-messina/silicon-valley-is-all-wrong-about-the-airpods-8204ede08f0f#.9ro6pge1w
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
On Fri, 21 Oct 2016 21:54:04 +0200 lukáš Hozda wrote: Hello Lukáš, > Do you know about some bad things Apple has done in their pursuit of > ever-increasing profits? Do you know about ways Apple is against free > and open-source software? Please let me know. Naturally, if you know > about some good deeds of Apple, I accept them as well. Apple used to make very good hardware, and I am running Mac minis here as work computers and servers, and some of them have been serving me for almost a decade now. But these machines were built by an older alter ego of Apple, and it has been almost 4 years since I've last bought a Mac mini. At suckless.org we are releasing our software under permissive licenses like MIT and ISC, so in general I'd love to see suckless software running in macOS and everyone who writes suckless software has to accept the fact that his software can end up there. They already made the switch to LibreSSL, so one can say that they are interested in using quality open source software. Liberty wise it may not be very good, but when you count up the numbers, the macOS userbase might be the biggest percentage of all users of LibreSSL. When you're discussing Apple, you always need to compare the pre- to the post-Jobs era. Job's vision was to build up an ecosystem that consisted of hardware and software. What really catches this spirit is the following quote by Alan Kay "People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware." And this approach works: Macs are reliable and used to be very reliable machines, as already pointed out in this thread IBM found that out as well a while ago. Now, the post-Jobs Apple has changed in many respects, and they've made decisions excluding the professional market further and further. Aiming your product at the consumers works of course, and the bean counter Tim Cook sees this as the only logical decision (consumers are our biggest market group, so it should be our target group). The problem this really brings is the fact that the highly-invested developers the Apple ecosystem needs are depending on "professional" Mac machines to work with, and there are only so many things even an Apple fanatic can put up with. If this trend continues, more and more "high-end" developers will leave this area and move towards developing for other platforms. What is keeping them back is the fact that the App Store is by far the most profitable of all app stores, but this gap is closing with more and more developers flooding the market. I don't think it will be doomsday for Apple in the coming years, and they are doing really well. But all the money in the world can't buy you a developer-base that is loyal and invested in developing good applications for your ecosystem. This might all end up in a big pile of uselessness. I'm looking forward to what they will announce on Thursday at their Mac event[0], but won't hold my breath. With best regards Laslo [0]: http://www.apple.com/apple-events/october-2016/ -- Laslo Hunhold
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
While this can seem relatively unimportant to some, the use of proprietary screws (Pentalobe) really does sum up Apple's stance toward its client base.
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
Hello, thank you for all your great answers. They are greatly appreciated and help a lot. >This thread is, as I somewhat expected, a total train wreck. > >Replying with regard to technical criticism regarding osx, because >literally *none* of the claims could be substancially supported by >even anyone else's analysis or facts. So most of what I read about >apple technically, I'm referring to the osx criticisms listed, were >obviously more FUD than anything else. > >TL;DR, while I'm sure most of this stuff holds further scrutiny, I >just doubt it's generally a good idea to list so many problems while >providing no technical context whatsoever. The thread turned out how I planned. A lot of information and sources, from which I will filter out things I already know and are included in my work already and get rid of the FUD. Then I will take the facts that are usable for my work and are new to me and look up more information to get some context for them and ensure their factual correctness. Indeed it would not be a good idea to list many problems without any context, but that's of course not what am I going to do in my speech. >So, OP, take note and don't leak our laziness into your final product. >I chimed in because I totally missed any mention of OP's >responsibility here. The problem is that I feel like copy+paste can >really misrepresent the open source community as a whole. The few of >us content with researching a subject poorly with little to no >aspiration to technical detail and accuracy may cause real harm to the >many of us who take a lot of care about these things. So it does you >and us a favor to look at issues with care. Yes, you are right that copy+paste can really misrepresent the whole open source community. We all know how misrepresentation can be bad if we look at how the media et al. mangled the meaning of the words "hacker", "hacks" and "hacking". Of course, I am going to research the subject a bit more in-depth, so that I don't end up like CNN with Mr. 4Chan. Especially since I am sure that those of the crowd that will be listening to me will not hesitate to fact-check what I say in order to disprove my speech, therefore it is my responsibility to make sure everything I present is correct. >Which means, you are left with pointers into a few directions really >worth looking into more closely, The pointers are exactly what is useful for me and I will indeed look into them closely. >worth looking into more closely, and as I'm not in depth educated >about thing I wouldn't buy myself, I'd be actually interested in your >findings. Yes, I plan to post the results and reception of my speech here afterwards for everyone to see. regards, Lukáš 2016-10-23 15:10 GMT+02:00 Martin Kühne : > On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Markus Teich > wrote: >> Martin Kühne wrote: >>> TL;DR, while I'm sure most of this stuff holds further scrutiny, I just >>> doubt >>> it's generally a good idea to list so many problems while providing no >>> technical context whatsoever. >> >> Heyho Martin, >> >> I didn't want to do the whole schoolwork for Lukáš, so I just gave a >> hint/possible fact which he should be able to check himself. It's important >> to >> learn how to research arguments to build your own oppinion. Providing Lukáš >> with >> ready-to-use text blocks would just increase the filter-bubble problem. I >> think >> other responses had similar intentions. >> >> --Markus >> > > > So, OP, take note and don't leak our laziness into your final product. > I chimed in because I totally missed any mention of OP's > responsibility here. The problem is that I feel like copy+paste can > really misrepresent the open source community as a whole. The few of > us content with researching a subject poorly with little to no > aspiration to technical detail and accuracy may cause real harm to the > many of us who take a lot of care about these things. So it does you > and us a favor to look at issues with care. > > Which means, you are left with pointers into a few directions really > worth looking into more closely, and as I'm not in depth educated > about thing I wouldn't buy myself, I'd be actually interested in your > findings. > > cheers! > mar77i >
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Markus Teich wrote: > Martin Kühne wrote: >> TL;DR, while I'm sure most of this stuff holds further scrutiny, I just doubt >> it's generally a good idea to list so many problems while providing no >> technical context whatsoever. > > Heyho Martin, > > I didn't want to do the whole schoolwork for Lukáš, so I just gave a > hint/possible fact which he should be able to check himself. It's important to > learn how to research arguments to build your own oppinion. Providing Lukáš > with > ready-to-use text blocks would just increase the filter-bubble problem. I > think > other responses had similar intentions. > > --Markus > So, OP, take note and don't leak our laziness into your final product. I chimed in because I totally missed any mention of OP's responsibility here. The problem is that I feel like copy+paste can really misrepresent the open source community as a whole. The few of us content with researching a subject poorly with little to no aspiration to technical detail and accuracy may cause real harm to the many of us who take a lot of care about these things. So it does you and us a favor to look at issues with care. Which means, you are left with pointers into a few directions really worth looking into more closely, and as I'm not in depth educated about thing I wouldn't buy myself, I'd be actually interested in your findings. cheers! mar77i
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
Martin Kühne wrote: > TL;DR, while I'm sure most of this stuff holds further scrutiny, I just doubt > it's generally a good idea to list so many problems while providing no > technical context whatsoever. Heyho Martin, I didn't want to do the whole schoolwork for Lukáš, so I just gave a hint/possible fact which he should be able to check himself. It's important to learn how to research arguments to build your own oppinion. Providing Lukáš with ready-to-use text blocks would just increase the filter-bubble problem. I think other responses had similar intentions. --Markus
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
Hi Luk, On 21 October 2016 at 21:54, lukáš Hozda wrote: > I am not very familiar with the usage of mailing lists and unsure > whether this is the right place to post this request, but just like > the title says, I am collecting the sins of Apple. I will be having a > speech/presentation on problems of Apple the next week at my school > where I plan to talk about the wrongs against people and sane software > Apple has on account. Apple has transformed from a rather "alternative pre-hipster" supplier into a so-called "premium" eco-system definer. If a customer buys hardware products from Apple, he becomes pretty much locked into the Apple eco-system. I consider this "forcing in" of customers into the Apple-monoculture as the worst aspect of Apple. In the past it was excusable, because one needed a PC for serious work anyways and Apple hardware and software was just some odd pre-hipster tool with limited functionality. Nowadays it has turned into a seriously locked up eco-system that appears to me worse than Microsofts PC dominance during the 90s and early 2000s. People who use Apple products barely escape from them, because they have invested a lot of money into the associated eco-system in the form of app/itunes purchases and other subscriptions. Corporate eco-systems means no freedom of choice to the customer. Speaking from FLOSS perspective, I don't think that Apple is worse or better than all the other IT corps that do some FLOSS contributions. Though, Apple's business model clearly is not based on open source, it is rather based on closed hardware and source. But the same applies for most other IT corps as well. In terms of software quality it depends on what you look at that Apple has contributed. Most of it is rather mediocre and hence I would consider that Apple's closed source and hardware design assets aren't any better than average. Best regards, Anselm
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
This thread is, as I somewhat expected, a total train wreck. Replying with regard to technical criticism regarding osx, because literally *none* of the claims could be substancially supported by even anyone else's analysis or facts. So most of what I read about apple technically, I'm referring to the osx criticisms listed, were obviously more FUD than anything else. TL;DR, while I'm sure most of this stuff holds further scrutiny, I just doubt it's generally a good idea to list so many problems while providing no technical context whatsoever. cheers! mar77i
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
lukáš Hozda wrote: > Do you know about some bad things Apple has done in their pursuit of > ever-increasing profits? Do you know about ways Apple is against free and > open-source software? Please let me know. Naturally, if you know about some > good deeds of Apple, I accept them as well. Heyho Lukáš, a point not mentioned yet is their cruel manufacturing conditions for the workers in asia. This point is certainly not unique to Apple(c)(r)(tm), but it's one of the best known offenders with this problem. --Markus
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
> I just read an article [1] saying that IBM saved a significant > amount of money thanks to the fact that they partially switched > to Macs from PCs. Depending on the perspective, saving money could still be considered a sin. -- Nathan GPG: 42AD 5FB1 4EC0 4AF7 0457 D9B8 5F3E 4106 A182 2BB5 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
I have never been able to have my Linux client access folders and files shared under Mac OS X Samba server. Apple replaced Samba with SMBX, their home-cooked application for Windows File Sharing. By default, it also doesn't do much logging. If you want to review logs, you'll have to edit the launchd item. What a pain. -A. On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 09:54:04PM +0200, lukáš Hozda wrote: Hello suckless folks, I am not very familiar with the usage of mailing lists and unsure whether this is the right place to post this request, but just like the title says, I am collecting the sins of Apple. I will be having a speech/presentation on problems of Apple the next week at my school where I plan to talk about the wrongs against people and sane software Apple has on account. I share the passion for C and ingenious, simple, concise and fair software and have been reading everything in dev and hackers mailing lists for a few months, which inspired me to ask you, sane guys, who seem to have a similar view on software and computers as I do, but have much more experience and skill in the field, for some input as well. Do you know about some bad things Apple has done in their pursuit of ever-increasing profits? Do you know about ways Apple is against free and open-source software? Please let me know. Naturally, if you know about some good deeds of Apple, I accept them as well. In return I will include everyone who shares some information in the sources and briefly mention the great suckless community as well. Thanks in advance, Lukáš P.S: If this is indeed the wrong place to post this or it doesn't belong here for one reason or another, I am sincerely sorry and in that case, please ignore this post/mail.
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
https://stallman.org/apple.html
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
lukáš Hozda wrote: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/operating-systems/osx/ http://aiju.de/rant/os/osx > Hello suckless folks, > > I am not very familiar with the usage of mailing lists and unsure > whether this is the right place to post this request, but just like > the title says, I am collecting the sins of Apple. I will be having a > speech/presentation on problems of Apple the next week at my school > where I plan to talk about the wrongs against people and sane software > Apple has on account. > > I share the passion for C and ingenious, simple, concise and fair > software and have been reading everything in dev and hackers mailing > lists for a few months, which inspired me to ask you, sane guys, who > seem to have a similar view on software and computers as I do, but > have much more experience and skill in the field, for some input as > well. > > Do you know about some bad things Apple has done in their pursuit of > ever-increasing profits? Do you know about ways Apple is against free > and open-source software? Please let me know. Naturally, if you know > about some good deeds of Apple, I accept them as well. > > In return I will include everyone who shares some information in the > sources and briefly mention the great suckless community as well. > > Thanks in advance, > Lukáš > > P.S: If this is indeed the wrong place to post this or it doesn't > belong here for one reason or another, I am sincerely sorry and in > that case, please ignore this post/mail.
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
One of the biggest failures they have, is they're unable to develop their own OS/Software by themselves, see their source tree[0], it's just GNU utils, BSD utils, and other stolen parts, not to mention the bad design of their hardware and it's overprice. On 2016-10-21 22:54, lukáš Hozda wrote: Hello suckless folks, I am not very familiar with the usage of mailing lists and unsure whether this is the right place to post this request, but just like the title says, I am collecting the sins of Apple. I will be having a speech/presentation on problems of Apple the next week at my school where I plan to talk about the wrongs against people and sane software Apple has on account. I share the passion for C and ingenious, simple, concise and fair software and have been reading everything in dev and hackers mailing lists for a few months, which inspired me to ask you, sane guys, who seem to have a similar view on software and computers as I do, but have much more experience and skill in the field, for some input as well. Do you know about some bad things Apple has done in their pursuit of ever-increasing profits? Do you know about ways Apple is against free and open-source software? Please let me know. Naturally, if you know about some good deeds of Apple, I accept them as well. In return I will include everyone who shares some information in the sources and briefly mention the great suckless community as well. Thanks in advance, Lukáš P.S: If this is indeed the wrong place to post this or it doesn't belong here for one reason or another, I am sincerely sorry and in that case, please ignore this post/mail. [0]: https://opensource.apple.com/release/os-x-10116/ --- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 09:54:04PM +0200, lukáš Hozda wrote: > Do you know about some bad things Apple has done in their pursuit of > ever-increasing profits? Do you know about ways Apple is against free > and open-source software? Please let me know. Naturally, if you know > about some good deeds of Apple, I accept them as well. * Proprietary hardware (chargers, connectors) * Restrictive licensing (not allowed to install their OS on non-Apple computers or VMs though I heard they changed that clause) * Promoting their proprietary "Mantle" API instead of Vulkan (without letting other people write drivers/API implementations on their OS) Just from the top of my head. Some if it may not be relevant anymore so take it with a grain of salt. Cheers, Silvan
Re: [dev] Collecting sins of Apple
Hi, On 21 Oct 2016, at 21:54, lukáš Hozda wrote: > Naturally, if you know about some good deeds of Apple, I accept > them as well. I just read an article [1] saying that IBM saved a significant amount of money thanks to the fact that they partially switched to Macs from PCs. Cheers, -m [1]: https://9to5mac.com/2016/10/19/jamf-ibm-mac-deployment/
