Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
For what it's worth, I believe the "maturity" of the Australian mobile network is (continuously) just behind that of the United Kingdom... so currently, here, down under, I highly doubt we, as SMSC clients, have direct access to MSISDN porting information, either via SS7 or similar. I've heard rumours that location information may be provided soon... but there are also legislative / privacy issues. The arrangement in Germany sounds pretty sweet, though. On Monday, 2003-08-11 at 10:49:06 PM, Steve Kennedy scribbled: > On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 12:20:38PM +0200, Stipe Tolj wrote: > > > as many countries deploy MSISDN number portability in their GSM > > networks, which means you as a end-customer can take your MSISDN to an > > other operator when you switch, makes things a bit more complicated on > > the SMS gateway side. > > Unfortunately it's not too easy to get porting info, as it will be > stored in the HLR of the operator, and unless you have an SS7 connection > to them you'll never know the number's been ported. > > i.e. say in UK you have 07775 123456, this is a Vodafone number > (allocated in a block by Oftel). If the user ports it, they will put an > entry into their HLR which points the number to another network, and > they put it in their HLR. > > > Maybe now they are opening up location based services, they'll also > allow other access to HLR's ??? > > Steve > > -- > NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 > SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19 -- Benjamin Lee Melbourne, Australia "Always real."http://www.realthought.net/ __ [Maturity consists in the discovery that] there comes a critical moment where everything is reversed, after which the point becomes to understand more and more that there is something which cannot be understood. -- S. Kierkegaard
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 05:28:23PM +0200, Andreas Fink wrote: > > On Montag, August 11, 2003, at 05:15 Uhr, Steve Kennedy wrote: > >On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 05:01:50PM +0200, Nisan Bloch wrote: > >>I would prefer to see some sort of lookup interface.. Something like a > >>"HLR" box. > >>Of more importance is how to implement the lookup and when (as this > >>will > >>incur a msg cost)? Use some third party? Do some SS7 integration? > >>Booktrout > >>have some nice APIs with their SS7 cards. > >>Also of course if we keep the numbers in a hash table, when does one > >>refresh? > >Od course this begs the question, how does one query an HLR using SS7, > This is pretty simple. you ask the HLR about the location of a user to > deliver SMS and you will get back its IMSI number which starts with the > mobile network country code and then the mobile network code. > We're doing it on our SS7 system but so far no one has shown interest > to use it so we didnt develop this functionality further. Yup, maybe elsewhere in EU, but in the UK it's difficult ... there's probably a market for it over here ... Steve p.s. assuming Switzerland is almost EU :) -- NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 11:07:47PM +1000, Benjamin Lee wrote: > For what it's worth, > I believe the "maturity" of the Australian mobile network is (continuously) > just behind that of the United Kingdom... so currently, here, down under, I > highly doubt we, as SMSC clients, have direct access to MSISDN porting > information, either via SS7 or similar. I've heard rumours that location > information may be provided soon... but there are also legislative / > privacy issues. But's that's the whole point, try getting an SS7 connection to a mobile operator in the UK (well at least to do more than voice). Steve -- NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
> An HTTP 'callback' sounds good as an initial implementation. Generic and > flexible. yep. I'm also in a favor of this. Where API should be very simplified like: earerbox calls http://www.foob.com/?msisdn= and that HTTP server replies with either an smsc-id as body/header(?!) or nothing (indicating he doesn't know where to route). The question is would we do some kind of internal caching for this? This would speed up things drastically. Maybe using a *huge* Dict hash? Has anyone used huge Dict hashs? Stipe [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Wapme Systems AG Vogelsanger Weg 80 40470 Düsseldorf Tel: +49-211-74845-0 Fax: +49-211-74845-299 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://www.wapme-systems.de --- wapme.net - wherever you are
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
Hi all, On Monday, 2003-08-11 at 08:20:38 PM, Stipe Tolj scribbled: *snip* > > A first scratch may be an simple HTTP lookup to an "resolving server" > which then answers with a given smsc-id we simply inject to the Msg > struct and then route via this smsc-id. > > Any ideas and comments please?! An HTTP 'callback' sounds good as an initial implementation. Generic and flexible. Just my two cents. -- Benjamin Lee Melbourne, Australia "Always real."http://www.realthought.net/ __ "I went into a general store, and they wouldn't sell me anything specific". -- Steven Wright
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
Paul Keogh wrote: > > My experience is that some operators indicate this through either > additional proprietary SMPP error codes or through overloading existing > ones. > > I would hazard a guess that not many operators will expose an interface > allowing you to query NP status. I think they are more likely to indicate NP > through in-protocol (eg. SMPP, MM7 etc) errors. Just MHO of course. > > Does anyone know of any operator or 3rd party that provides NP status as > a service ? now, in Germany we have an access to an "centralized" database which holds all ported numbers. So actually if you want to route messages to Operator SMSCs, you must resolve the MSISDN at that database to know if it has been ported to an other operator and hence route it to the "new" one instead of the prefix home. Stipe [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Wapme Systems AG Vogelsanger Weg 80 40470 Düsseldorf Tel: +49-211-74845-0 Fax: +49-211-74845-299 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://www.wapme-systems.de --- wapme.net - wherever you are
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
On Montag, August 11, 2003, at 12:51 Uhr, Stipe Tolj wrote: An HTTP 'callback' sounds good as an initial implementation. Generic and flexible. yep. I'm also in a favor of this. Where API should be very simplified like: earerbox calls http://www.foob.com/?msisdn= and that HTTP server replies with either an smsc-id as body/header(?!) or nothing (indicating he doesn't know where to route). The question is would we do some kind of internal caching for this? This would speed up things drastically. Maybe using a *huge* Dict hash? why huge? entries in this list should not be kept too long. an alternate way of API would be to use a MySQL DB directly as secondary solution. But this brings us to a routing issue in general. Andreas Fink Global Networks Switzerland AG -- Tel: +41-61-333 Fax: +41-61-334 Mobile: +41-79-2457333 Global Networks, Inc. Clarastrasse 3, 4058 Basel, Switzerland Web: http://www.global-networks.ch/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
Just to clarify to all... I meant that it's probably the same here in Australia... as we tend to lag a little behind the United Kingdom... I apologise if my previous email did not read this way... I wasn't contesting anything, just confirming. On Monday, 2003-08-11 at 11:07:47 PM, Benjamin Lee scribbled: > For what it's worth, > > I believe the "maturity" of the Australian mobile network is (continuously) > just behind that of the United Kingdom... so currently, here, down under, I > highly doubt we, as SMSC clients, have direct access to MSISDN porting > information, either via SS7 or similar. I've heard rumours that location > information may be provided soon... but there are also legislative / > privacy issues. > > The arrangement in Germany sounds pretty sweet, though. > > On Monday, 2003-08-11 at 10:49:06 PM, Steve Kennedy scribbled: > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 12:20:38PM +0200, Stipe Tolj wrote: > > > > > as many countries deploy MSISDN number portability in their GSM > > > networks, which means you as a end-customer can take your MSISDN to an > > > other operator when you switch, makes things a bit more complicated on > > > the SMS gateway side. > > > > Unfortunately it's not too easy to get porting info, as it will be > > stored in the HLR of the operator, and unless you have an SS7 connection > > to them you'll never know the number's been ported. > > > > i.e. say in UK you have 07775 123456, this is a Vodafone number > > (allocated in a block by Oftel). If the user ports it, they will put an > > entry into their HLR which points the number to another network, and > > they put it in their HLR. > > > > > > Maybe now they are opening up location based services, they'll also > > allow other access to HLR's ??? > > > > Steve > > > > -- > > NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 > > SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19 > > -- > Benjamin Lee > Melbourne, Australia "Always real."http://www.realthought.net/ > > __ > [Maturity consists in the discovery that] there comes a critical moment > where everything is reversed, after which the point becomes to understand > more and more that there is something which cannot be understood. > -- S. Kierkegaard -- Benjamin Lee Melbourne, Australia "Always real."http://www.realthought.net/ __ Chemist who falls in acid is absorbed in work.
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 04:42:45PM +0100, Alex Kinch wrote: > I've been following this thread with interest. > We're planning to collect information on a user's mobile operator via our > soon-to-be-launched reverse billing operation. We also operate a bulk SMS > and business messaging site, so this sort of information would be useful for > least cost routing. I appreciate it'd take a rather long time to build up a > profile of even a small chunk of UK mobile users, but it's a start. > I haven't looked into the legal / data protection implications, but could a > few of us get together to put information into a central database? As someone pointed out, this may well not be possible in UK due to Data Protection Act concerns (if not EU privacy concerns). Lots of stuff that was protected by operators/telcos is now not so in the UK at least as Telecomms licenses were scrapped in UK on July 24th, however various bits are still pretty vague as to what replaces them and what can and cant be passed on etc. in terms of SS7 type services. Steve -- NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
Hi At 12:20 PM 8/11/03 +0200, you wrote: Main question is: How much of the specific implementations do we want to add to Kannel? Ideally this would look like the SMSCConn abstraction layer itself for the resolving of the network. A first scratch may be an simple HTTP lookup to an "resolving server" which then answers with a given smsc-id we simply inject to the Msg struct and then route via this smsc-id. Any ideas and comments please?! I would rather be able to ask Kannel about an MSISDN - simply routing it to another smsc-id can have disasterous effects esp. with respect to charging. Eg say a user wants to restrict the charge to X creds in Country Y. Now via one SMSC we can get to telco A in Country Y and via another SMSC telco B - but with different costs - eg O2 and Vodaphone in the UK. If bearerbox simply rewrites at this point all apps doing intelligent routing pre SMSbox will get things totally wrong. I would prefer to see some sort of lookup interface.. Something like a "HLR" box. Of more importance is how to implement the lookup and when (as this will incur a msg cost)? Use some third party? Do some SS7 integration? Booktrout have some nice APIs with their SS7 cards. Also of course if we keep the numbers in a hash table, when does one refresh? Nisan Stipe [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Wapme Systems AG Vogelsanger Weg 80 40470 Düsseldorf Tel: +49-211-74845-0 Fax: +49-211-74845-299 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://www.wapme-systems.de --- wapme.net - wherever you are
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 12:20:38PM +0200, Stipe Tolj wrote: > as many countries deploy MSISDN number portability in their GSM > networks, which means you as a end-customer can take your MSISDN to an > other operator when you switch, makes things a bit more complicated on > the SMS gateway side. Unfortunately it's not too easy to get porting info, as it will be stored in the HLR of the operator, and unless you have an SS7 connection to them you'll never know the number's been ported. i.e. say in UK you have 07775 123456, this is a Vodafone number (allocated in a block by Oftel). If the user ports it, they will put an entry into their HLR which points the number to another network, and they put it in their HLR. Maybe now they are opening up location based services, they'll also allow other access to HLR's ??? Steve -- NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 05:01:50PM +0200, Nisan Bloch wrote: > I would prefer to see some sort of lookup interface.. Something like a > "HLR" box. > Of more importance is how to implement the lookup and when (as this will > incur a msg cost)? Use some third party? Do some SS7 integration? Booktrout > have some nice APIs with their SS7 cards. > Also of course if we keep the numbers in a hash table, when does one > refresh? Od course this begs the question, how does one query an HLR using SS7, the UK networks are extremely unlikely to allow any 3rd party that hasn't signed roaming agreements/whatever. Maybe a nice friendly foreign operator could be persuaded to offer such a service, and maybe someone would like to sit a box somewhere to allow 3rd party queries ? h ... You'd need to implement MAP/SS7, but hey. Steve -- NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19
RE: [RFC] Number portability hooks
> > Ideally this would look like the SMSCConn abstraction layer itself for > the resolving of the network. > > A first scratch may be an simple HTTP lookup to an "resolving server" > which then answers with a given smsc-id we simply inject to the Msg > struct and then route via this smsc-id. > > Any ideas and comments please?! > My experience is that some operators indicate this through either additional proprietary SMPP error codes or through overloading existing ones. I would hazard a guess that not many operators will expose an interface allowing you to query NP status. I think they are more likely to indicate NP through in-protocol (eg. SMPP, MM7 etc) errors. Just MHO of course. Does anyone know of any operator or 3rd party that provides NP status as a service ?
RE: [RFC] Number portability hooks
> now, in Germany we have an access to an "centralized" database which > holds all ported numbers. So actually if you want to route messages to > Operator SMSCs, you must resolve the MSISDN at that database to know > if it has been ported to an other operator and hence route it to the > "new" one instead of the prefix home. > That's impressive - is this something required by the regulatory authorities or co-operation between the operators ? Is there a cost to access the service ? The Irish networks indicate NP through SMPP error codes which are inconsistent in both format and content across operators :-(.
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
We'd be interested - +1 from me. Alex - Original Message - From: "Alexei" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks > Sounds illegal to me to make this information public. > But anyone with SS7 access can do lookup and instantly tell the MNC+MCC > of operator. > If there's enough interest, we might offer such public service with HTTP > interface and instant results.. > Just my 2c. > > On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 17:42, Alex Kinch wrote: > > Steve, > > > > I've been following this thread with interest. > > > > We're planning to collect information on a user's mobile operator via our > > soon-to-be-launched reverse billing operation. We also operate a bulk SMS > > and business messaging site, so this sort of information would be useful for > > least cost routing. I appreciate it'd take a rather long time to build up a > > profile of even a small chunk of UK mobile users, but it's a start. > > > > I haven't looked into the legal / data protection implications, but could a > > few of us get together to put information into a central database? > > > > Alex > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Steve Kennedy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 4:15 PM > > Subject: Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 05:01:50PM +0200, Nisan Bloch wrote: > > > > > > > I would prefer to see some sort of lookup interface.. Something like a > > > > "HLR" box. > > > > Of more importance is how to implement the lookup and when (as this will > > > > incur a msg cost)? Use some third party? Do some SS7 integration? > > Booktrout > > > > have some nice APIs with their SS7 cards. > > > > Also of course if we keep the numbers in a hash table, when does one > > > > refresh? > > > > > > Od course this begs the question, how does one query an HLR using SS7, > > > the UK networks are extremely unlikely to allow any 3rd party that > > > hasn't signed roaming agreements/whatever. > > > > > > Maybe a nice friendly foreign operator could be persuaded to offer such > > > a service, and maybe someone would like to sit a box somewhere to allow > > > 3rd party queries ? h ... You'd need to implement MAP/SS7, but hey. > > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > -- > > > NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 > > > SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
> At 12:20 PM 8/11/03 +0200, you wrote: > >> >> Any ideas and comments please?! > > Yeah. For interactive services, where an app responds to an MO SM with an MT SM within a timeframe of at most a few minutes, you can do most NP work very simply under certain conditions, namely when all bearerbox connections go to the operators directly, and not over a service aggregator. In this case, the MO will only come from the operator who "owns" the handset, i.e. owns the GSM network in which the handset is present. If that handset gets ported, the MO will come from the new network's SMSC. By remembering the smsc-id from whence an MO came, you will almost never go wrong sending it back to the same smsc-id for the MT replies. No nasty HLR lookups! It's no good for strongly asynchronous MT-centric services (subscriptions, e-mail notifications, etc) but it will work like a charm for most other cases. David WHITE ONE GmbH P.S. Sorry Nisan! I pressed "send" there before remembering the dev-list's handling of replies. Not enough coffee...
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
Sounds illegal to me to make this information public. But anyone with SS7 access can do lookup and instantly tell the MNC+MCC of operator. If there's enough interest, we might offer such public service with HTTP interface and instant results.. Just my 2c. On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 17:42, Alex Kinch wrote: > Steve, > > I've been following this thread with interest. > > We're planning to collect information on a user's mobile operator via our > soon-to-be-launched reverse billing operation. We also operate a bulk SMS > and business messaging site, so this sort of information would be useful for > least cost routing. I appreciate it'd take a rather long time to build up a > profile of even a small chunk of UK mobile users, but it's a start. > > I haven't looked into the legal / data protection implications, but could a > few of us get together to put information into a central database? > > Alex > > - Original Message - > From: "Steve Kennedy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 4:15 PM > Subject: Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks > > > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 05:01:50PM +0200, Nisan Bloch wrote: > > > > > I would prefer to see some sort of lookup interface.. Something like a > > > "HLR" box. > > > Of more importance is how to implement the lookup and when (as this will > > > incur a msg cost)? Use some third party? Do some SS7 integration? > Booktrout > > > have some nice APIs with their SS7 cards. > > > Also of course if we keep the numbers in a hash table, when does one > > > refresh? > > > > Od course this begs the question, how does one query an HLR using SS7, > > the UK networks are extremely unlikely to allow any 3rd party that > > hasn't signed roaming agreements/whatever. > > > > Maybe a nice friendly foreign operator could be persuaded to offer such > > a service, and maybe someone would like to sit a box somewhere to allow > > 3rd party queries ? h ... You'd need to implement MAP/SS7, but hey. > > > > > > Steve > > > > -- > > NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 > > SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19 > > > > > > > >
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 12:51:16PM +0200, Stipe Tolj wrote: > The question is would we do some kind of internal caching for this? > This would speed up things drastically. Maybe using a *huge* Dict > hash? > Has anyone used huge Dict hashs? Look at cdb, good for multiple reads, not so good for writes. Steve -- NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
Steve, I've been following this thread with interest. We're planning to collect information on a user's mobile operator via our soon-to-be-launched reverse billing operation. We also operate a bulk SMS and business messaging site, so this sort of information would be useful for least cost routing. I appreciate it'd take a rather long time to build up a profile of even a small chunk of UK mobile users, but it's a start. I haven't looked into the legal / data protection implications, but could a few of us get together to put information into a central database? Alex - Original Message - From: "Steve Kennedy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks > On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 05:01:50PM +0200, Nisan Bloch wrote: > > > I would prefer to see some sort of lookup interface.. Something like a > > "HLR" box. > > Of more importance is how to implement the lookup and when (as this will > > incur a msg cost)? Use some third party? Do some SS7 integration? Booktrout > > have some nice APIs with their SS7 cards. > > Also of course if we keep the numbers in a hash table, when does one > > refresh? > > Od course this begs the question, how does one query an HLR using SS7, > the UK networks are extremely unlikely to allow any 3rd party that > hasn't signed roaming agreements/whatever. > > Maybe a nice friendly foreign operator could be persuaded to offer such > a service, and maybe someone would like to sit a box somewhere to allow > 3rd party queries ? h ... You'd need to implement MAP/SS7, but hey. > > > Steve > > -- > NetTek Ltd Phone/Fax +44-(0)20 7483 2455 > SMS steve-pager (at) gbnet.net [body] gpg 1024D/468952DB 2001-09-19 > > >
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
At 12:51 PM 8/11/03 +0200, Stipe Tolj wrote: > An HTTP 'callback' sounds good as an initial implementation. Generic and > flexible. Has anyone used huge Dict hashs? Kannel hash is a bit ineffecient for this. We did investigate. One would need to change the hashing function, and in fact trie trees or the like would be better. nisan Stipe [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Wapme Systems AG Vogelsanger Weg 80 40470 Düsseldorf Tel: +49-211-74845-0 Fax: +49-211-74845-299 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://www.wapme-systems.de --- wapme.net - wherever you are
Re: [RFC] Number portability hooks
On Montag, August 11, 2003, at 05:15 Uhr, Steve Kennedy wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 05:01:50PM +0200, Nisan Bloch wrote: I would prefer to see some sort of lookup interface.. Something like a "HLR" box. Of more importance is how to implement the lookup and when (as this will incur a msg cost)? Use some third party? Do some SS7 integration? Booktrout have some nice APIs with their SS7 cards. Also of course if we keep the numbers in a hash table, when does one refresh? Od course this begs the question, how does one query an HLR using SS7, This is pretty simple. you ask the HLR about the location of a user to deliver SMS and you will get back its IMSI number which starts with the mobile network country code and then the mobile network code. We're doing it on our SS7 system but so far no one has shown interest to use it so we didnt develop this functionality further. Andreas Fink Global Networks Switzerland AG -- Tel: +41-61-333 Fax: +41-61-334 Mobile: +41-79-2457333 Global Networks, Inc. Clarastrasse 3, 4058 Basel, Switzerland Web: http://www.global-networks.ch/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
