Re: No preupgrade for F17-F18?, [Bug 872876] WONTFIX
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:46 AM, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: We should make fedup obsolete preupgrade. But we should have a gui first . I had a look at fedup and it seems in a very early stage of development - so a bit like the Anaconda change (with hindsight) the new isn't quite ready to take over at the point the old is no longer usable. It's unfortunate. Still it looks promising. I'll test fedup as soon as I dare, are there any plans for a gui? -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
No preupgrade for F17-F18?, [Bug 872876] WONTFIX
List, cc Chris, I reported a bug after trying to use F17 to preupgrade to F18. It didn't work using Anaconda (I am aware Anaconda is a WIP) but I was surprised at the response. If preupgrade is being canned then presumably it needs fixing to no longer offer the non-working and WONTFIX option to upgrade to F18. Also if a 'completely separate process that does not involve anaconda' is mooted then... could preupgrade call that, or refer to it if it's a manual process? I understand the focus is on getting a working Anaconda at all at the moment but this is a loose end that needs tying up I think. What is the resolution? -Cam -- Forwarded message -- From: bugzi...@redhat.com Date: Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 3:20 PM Subject: [Bug 872876] AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'name' To: cam...@mesias.co.uk https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=872876 Chris Lumens clum...@redhat.com changed: What|Removed |Added Status|NEW |CLOSED Resolution|--- |WONTFIX Last Closed||2012-11-05 10:20:25 --- Comment #3 from Chris Lumens clum...@redhat.com --- preupgrade is not a supported way to do upgrades in F18. We will be using a completly separate process that does not involve anaconda. If you can reproduce this doing a fresh install, feel free to reopen this bug. -- You are receiving this mail because: You reported the bug. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?
Hi, On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: I don't understand why people want that annoying feature at all. It's a mistake to project your annoyance with a given feature onto the masses. I always enable the feature but it is an ongoing annoyance that it is disabled at GDM, is there any way to force it to default to on for the whole system? I find it's great for quiet clicking and is easier on the fingers than clicking a physical button. Also it's much better user experience to click somewhere you finger already is than to look down for a button or reposition by touch (given that there are often two physical buttons). Also I use several laptops and the button arrangement is always subtly different, if I can tap to click on all of them, it's a big usability win. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is not enabled TapButton of touchpad on Fedora by default?
Thanks for all the suggestions, I took the X11 config option which *just works* I honestly think this should be the default. At least, if there is a setting it should be system wide rather than personal / effective only after login, because devices with touchpads are predominantly personal devices not shared workstations... -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
resistance is futile On Apr 20, 2012 8:49 AM, Kamil Paral kpa...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 16:24 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea. To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the 'oscurity'. See attached. I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I created a screenshot gallery here (using time order): http://imgur.com/a/3hAEJ Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up? Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in F17. As I have described earlier, InstallFedoraButton doesn't need any translations, it uses anaconda.desktop file. Try to switch your language to german or french and you'll see the button text in german or french. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Install Fedora Button for LiveCD
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my opinion. Make it a notification. All this discussion is obscuring the original problem. Although a notification is easy, if it is dismissed, it fails as a method to start an install. So it's inferior to a dedicated button. Also, I think the use cases are inaccurate... Install would normally be only after seeing that the basic desktop / networking / suspend-resume was working properly. So I see several use cases: use livecd for some activity; use for testing followed by install; and more rarely, install immediately. A notification or popup at login time is only really a good fit for the immediate install use case. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Chromium
Hi, On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com wrote: which (right now) has precisely one other hit on Google. If you search for the demangled symbol, there are more references: v8::internal::I18NExtension::get() -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Torvalds:requiring root password for mundane things is moronic
Hi, On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Giovanni Campagna scampa.giova...@gmail.com wrote: Il 29 febbraio 2012 13:02, Neal Becker ndbeck...@gmail.com ha scritto: I think he's got a point http://www.osnews.com/story/25659/Torvalds_requiring_root_password_for_mundane_things_is_quot_moronic_quot_ FWIW, date/time and network require no authentication (including system-wide things like NTP). Managing printers requires unlock, but printing, installing a new local printer or connecting to mdns / cups browsing network printers does not. I think, last time I did this I had to perform several actions as root - one was firewall related, I also had to install some packages that weren't available by default and configure / discover the network printer. Maybe I will take notes next time and enter a bug, although to be honest I would not expect the sophistication of elegant UI that Torvalds seems to, from Fedora (I have entered bugs on similar niggles in audio config, network manager, gdm etc.). -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Linux Questions Desktop Environment of the Year - interesting result
I wonder if there is a way to accurately gauge hours spent using one DE or another. I've only ever used Gnome although I tried KDE briefly (at least one major release ago) and tried other distros Suse and Ubuntu, but only when Fedora was unstable on my hardware. I blogged a few 'gotchas' with Gnome 3 when it was launched but overall recorded my satisfaction with it. Is there a smolt-like solution that wouldn't be unpalatable to many? It would surely be better than relying on out-of date and questionable polls. I'd be happy to be counted as using Gnome shell on several systems. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 16 beta vice Knoppix
Hi, I tried some of these changes and they seemed to work reasonably well apart from the grub2 infrastructure is still a bit immature at running without initrd... specifically * I couldn't find a way to tell the grub2 scripts in /etc/grub.d (10_linux) that I didn't want initrd; I can edit out the initrd line at boot time * new kernels from yum stopped being installed because the grub2-mkconfig script chain relies on /dev/root which is missing in my initrdless boot; if I make ln -s /dev/sda3 /dev/root then the script starts working again * I suspect other stuff in grub2.cfg isn't needed for initrdless (eg. UUID is still mentioned) I'm not sure where to report this? Bugs against grub2 or something else? Is there a specific forum for initrdless working? -Cam On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote: On Tue, 04.10.11 21:01, JB (jb.1234a...@gmail.com) wrote: Results interpretation. --- Knoppix won by a wide margin, while: - Knoppix having microknoppix fast-parallel boot (based on SysV/LSB scripts) and DE with low resources usage and tailored for desktops - Fedora having systemd parallel boot and DE tailored for small and simple devices ^ huh? Fedora is not tailored for that. Would be great of it it was, but that's simply not the case. We install LVM and iSCSI and all kinds of other enterprisey stuff on even the smallest netbook. And LVM is a major source of slowness, since it requires all devices to be synchronously settled, before vgscan can be called. Also, we use SELinux and stuff which doesn't speed things up either. SELinux has become a lot faster at boot in F16, so that's good, but there's still a price to pay for it, which is more noticable the weaker your machine is. That said, I do believe that SELinux is a good thing and should definitely be part of the default install. Another bigger source of slowness at boot is currently Plymouth which also requires synchronous settling of devices (tough it's not as bad as LVM in that regard though, but costs too since EDID probing is apparently quite slow, and has every right to, but right now we delay the boot processes for that but we shoudl really do that in the background). I have been asking for the removal of LVM from the default install since a long time, and I am still firmly of the opinion that LVM needs to be something that folks who want it enable but not something that slows down everybody else's boot. If you want a quick boot on a netbook, then remove LVM, iscsi and the other enterprisey storage stuff. Then run systemctl mask fedora-wait-storage.service fedora-storage-init-late.service fedora-readonly.service fedora-storage-init.service fedora-loadmodules.service fedora-autoswap.service fedora-configure.service rc-local.service to mask a couple of always-on services, that are needed for enterprisey and legacy stuff. Also consider disabling stuff like abrtd, or even rsyslog (if you do all log output goes to kmsg, which reduces disk acesses and is often good enough), and audit, cpupower, iptables, lldapd, mcelog, multipathd, lvm2-monitor, mdmonitor, fcoe, dm-event. Check with systemctl list-unit-files what's still left. Then shortcut the initrd by adding rootfstype=ext4 to your kernel cmdline amd replacing root=UUID=X by root=/dev/sda6 (or whatever your harddisk is named in the kernel; what's important here is that the kernel can't look for harddisks by uuid on its own, that's only done by the initrd). Bypassing the initrd is well supported on F16 again, with one exception: plymouth breaks, so disable that: plymouth.disable=0 on the kernel cmdline. On my netbook this gives me a bios-to-gdm bootup time of around 10s, on my laptop of 5s, and Kay's newer laptop of 3s. And it's still an awesomely complete system, including SELinux and everything. And if you compare that with Knoppix then you will still be comparing apples and oranges, but we should be much more in the area of what Knoppix provides as boot times. I'd really like to see Fedora default to some more light-weight choices. Not only for netbooks and suchlike having LVM and all the enterprise stuff in the default is a bad choice, but for server VMs which tend to more lightweight that's the case too. The goals of what is needed to cope with netbooks and what is needed to cope with lightweighter VMs are actually much closer then people might think, and I'd love to see Fedora focus more on both. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?
Hi, On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: The XP I occasionally can not avoid to use, in its system control menus has controls to switch between normal, big very big fonts and expert/advanced controls one can specify fonts sizes for many details of the DE in pnts. Wouldn't the sane solution to be to honour the fallible DPI detection, with an expert tweak available to rescue those who have unusual hardware (or preferences)? I can't see the justification for the present override. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Why EDID is not trustworthy for DPI
Hi, On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote: I am clearly going to have to explain this one more time, forever. Let's see if I can't write it authoritatively once and simply answer with a URL from here out. (As always, use of the second person you herein is plural, not singular.) Thanks for the explanation... There is an alternative to endless explanation - roll out your best effort at a heuristic and let the crowd contribute to an ever growing set of exceptions. To play the devil's advocate, I'm asking why the monitor situation is different from any other bit of hardware. Drivers for mice, touchpads, wifi, NICs etc all suffer from the same lack of rigorous published specs / documentation, they are supported in Linux, fallibly, by ever growing tables of parameters and heuristics. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME 3 - font point sizes now scaled?
Hi, A daft question perhaps, but I thought... I'm not sure how we can make DPI magically be correct in gazillions of broken displays' EDID. How do other OS' do it? -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 16 Beta Release Candidate 1 (RC1) Available Now!
I wasn't able to install from the live CD, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=738964 Anaconda didn't make a bootable system, some kind of bootloader config problem by the look of it. -Cam On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, 2011-09-15 at 18:05 +0200, Stefan Held wrote: Am Donnerstag, den 15.09.2011, 10:39 -0400 schrieb Andre Robatino: As per the Fedora 16 schedule [1], Fedora 16 Beta Release Candidate 1 (RC1) is now available for testing. Is there a deltaiso? Yes, there are always are, here: http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/deltaisos/ if this isn't in the announcement, it should be... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Poll: Does ACPI lid state work on your Linux laptop?
What are the typical faults, and is it impossible to work around them, maybe autodetecting if they are working or not? For a laptop without an external display I would expect it to suspend when the lid is closed, as that is what I usually configure. However, it's not hard to imagine a feature of the desktop, such that if the user has an external display and has disabled the main display using xrandr or similar, then lid events are received, opening the lid could cause a dialog to pop up on the other monitor It appears that your laptop lid has opened... [] turn the laptop panel on when the lid opens [] always do this without asking [] don't ask me again -Cam On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 8:37 AM, Pasi Kärkkäinen pa...@iki.fi wrote: On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 09:11:23AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: Hi, On 07/13/2011 07:47 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 11:35 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 16:57 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: Maybe it it is an idea to build a whitelist for machines which do have working ACPI lid support? I realize maintaining such a list is a pain, but this way people who care and are lucky enough to have actually working hardware can at least use this ? It's an idea, but not one I'd do. Either a whitelist or a blacklist would be oppressively large. I suppose a whitelist has the advantage that it can't hurt anything compared to the current state, and no matter how short it is, it benefits *some* people. Yeah, that is my main reason for suggesting this, thanks for wording it so eloquently for me :) Note I'm not volunteering to do the work -ENOTIME. Would something like use_acpi_lid_status kernel cmdline option be too ugly? :) At least it would be easy to parse (grep /proc/cmdline) .. -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [HEADS-UP] replacing report with libreport
Hmm, something has broken in F15 for me: Opps, sealert hit an error! Traceback (most recent call last): File /usr/bin/sealert, line 692, in module run_as_dbus_service(username) File /usr/bin/sealert, line 112, in run_as_dbus_service app = SEAlert(user, dbus_service.presentation_manager, watch_setroubleshootd=True) File /usr/bin/sealert, line 326, in __init__ from setroubleshoot.browser import BrowserApplet File /usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/setroubleshoot/browser.py, line 46, in module import report.io.GTKIO ImportError: No module named GTKIO from setroubleshoot-server-3.0.35-1.fc15.i686 in conjunction with libreport-gtk-2.0.4-1.fc15.i686 -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Trusted Boot in Fedora
Hi, On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Simo Sorce s...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 22:21 +0200, nodata wrote: 2. This seems like Trusted Computing, which got shot down in flames. Who shot it and why ? I don't know about Trusted Computing but this does remind me of the Pentium III processor serial number that wasn't well received - even though in theory it had what many people would consider a reasonable purpose. In other words, tracking down CPUs that were sometimes stolen by the truckload. Does TrustedBoot go against the core values of Fedora? Only if it is not under user control, otherwise it is a very useful feature. In a sense, part of it isn't under user control. There is a secret in there, held against the user, and possibly known by the manufacturer or other third parties. There is also a black box of code that could do anything. I'm not really that paranoid but it is worth considering the worst case, just as a theoretical possibility. What if the device became standard by virtue of being bundled with every consumer device... what if it became crucial to system operation somehow... what if that device could then be disabled remotely, either rendered useless by the secret being disclosed, or some unknown functionality could be triggered in that signed but opaque blob of code. Already there are systems that have whitelisted hardware (eg. wireless cards in netbooks) and the BIOS polices the presence of the right device. If you make unauthorised modifications to the BIOS, you can install any compatible wireless card (or WWAN device). BUT if the BIOS was signed and loaded by a trusted method, this option would not be available. Apart from that there is the aspect of identification - this is as good a way of identifying a system as the processor serial number was. I think it is worth including in open source systems, but only so the devices and methods can be better understood, and probably turned off / disabled at the earliest opportunity if there isn't a compelling benefit to having them. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Trusted Boot in Fedora
I am still struggling to see real applications for this. I don't know how a networked system using the technology could be differentiated from an (insecure) software simulation of the same from a remote viewer's perspective. Also I don't see how it would be used in the world of servers where virtualisation is the way the world is going. I can imagine some limited application in an appliance, but only if the system was end-to-end secured, with a trusted kernel that only runs signed binaries and those binaries only running signed plugins, for example to play content locked material. While that is something that could feasibly be built with open source software, it's not something I imagine most users would be interested in. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Trusted Boot in Fedora
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Jon Ciesla l...@jcomserv.net wrote: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:01:45AM +0100, Camilo Mesias wrote: I am still struggling to see real applications for this. I don't know how a networked system using the technology could be differentiated from an (insecure) software simulation of the same from a remote viewer's perspective. Also I don't see how it would be used in the Afaik it would allow to securely enter hard disk encryption passwords via network on a Fedora system, because one can ensure that the correct (untampered) initrd / kernel is loaded. You cannot simulate this afaik because the used cryptographic keys are only stored in the TPM module and cannot be accessed from the outside. Therefore one needs to tamper with the TPM module instead of only with the unencrypted /boot partition, which is a lot harder from my point of view. So you can't possibly duplicate the keys elsewhere and modify the software calling them to look in that place, allowing you to virtualize a whole cluster of the same trusted machine? I think I can imagine how it might work - assuming that each device has unique key material, you could do cryptographic operations that ensure that the device you are talking to still has the same key (without exposing the key). So you infer the identity of the device you are talking to is that expected (ie the same device and not a replacement). This would enable a booting client to request disk passwords from a server after ensuring that the server is the one it is configured to recognise. The server would also be able to give the keys to the client, knowing that it was the genuine client and not an impostor. You could implement the whole thing in software, but the point is the key material is stored securely, so could not be copied in the same way you could take a copy of a private key stored in a filesystem. The other way for this to be used would be for the device to have non-unique material - ie. a 'ChipCorp' key - that is the same in many devices. Then external entities would be able to challenge a device to sign something with that key and verify that the device was a 'genuine' one. You would be unable to implement this in software unless you knew the secret stored inside the device. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Trusted Boot in Fedora
I'm curious to know the use case(s) for this technology. Does it enable certain types of behaviour that aren't possible currently? Would it enable a system running Fedora to interact with other systems with a greater guarantee about its behaviour or function? Is it just something that system integrators would see as a feature enabling them to make a secured system (ie something useful for RHEL)? If it just allows you to optionally run a signed kernel, I don't understand the point if it can be circumvented by choosing to run an unsigned one. So I think there must be some benefit that isn't obvious. What's the benefit? -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: what key between Ctrl Alt (was: GNOME3 and au revoir...)
It looks like a hanky or a napkin to me! -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome Shell Extension manager/framework planned?
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Michael Wiktowy michael.wikt...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/3/11, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com wrote: The existence and the proliferation of extensions indicates that a lot of people simply are not happy with what gnome shell does out of the box, and that's why they use the extensions. If it were not so, then, by definition, nobody would care about these extensions. It's a tautology. The cognative dissonance required to misconstrue an extension framework that has provided people with a previously impossible amount of customization in Gnome as something negative is quite astounding. Please do not take this personally but I have read through so many Gnome Shell threads that have been derailed by a cacaphony of non-constructive criticism. Before the signal to noise decay starts, can the Gnome 3 haters please take such negative non-constructive commentary to the many, many ... many Gnome Sux threads. I am a fan of Gnome 3, I can see the big step that has been taken and can forgive some lack of polish and wanted to start a conversation about a possible future framework to make sure gnome was helpful for simplicity and tweaker freaks alike. The customization potential has given me the impetus to improve my javascript knowledge enough to try my hand at it. Extensibility is a potential, not a deficit. /Mike -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel +1, really, the availability of extensions doesn't support any inference about dissatisfaction with Gnome 3. It merely suggests that there are enough people sufficiently interested and able to create such things. Also, given the ease (they are scripted after all) with which they can be created, it would be a damning criticism of the Gnome 3 design and effort if no-one was interested in creating extensions. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 15 Final Release Candidate 3 (RC3) Available Now!
Hi, On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: What you might want to do is try fallback mode, or a desktop other than GNOME, and see how that goes; the problem here may be that there's bugs in the 3D / compositing support for your graphics adapter that become apparent under Shell but are not apparent when using a desktop that doesn't use the same features Shell does. That would explain why it worked okay in F14 For the record I was using the F14 version of Gnome shell for much of the time (ever since I found out about the experimental version of nouveau). I tried F15 with nomodeset option and fallback desktop (which was pretty horrible) too. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 15 Final Release Candidate 3 (RC3) Available Now!
I did an install from the RC3 live CD (on USB) and it went well. However F15 remains very unstable, I don't think I will be able to use it. The main problem is that it will lock up spontaneously (then heats up if left as if in a tight CPU consuming loop). Apart from that any kind of session ending - logout, reboot, and other things like suspend, hibernate, turning wireless on and off - things that use systemd maybe? - will lock up the machine in the same way. This machine was perfectly usable on F14 and never locked up. I have a bug: 697157 on the kernel which seems to be getting little or no attention; at the same time I don't have any idea how to diagnose this given that the logs contain no clues. It will be back to F14 or I might have to try Ubuntu again for this hardware if it doesn't improve. Sorry if the tone of this message is a bit negative. I would love to use F15 and will continue to test any updates as I find time. I'll be keen to work with any developers that are interested in debugging the issues. -Cam On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Andre Robatino robat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: As per the Fedora 15 schedule [1], Fedora 15 Final Release Candidate 3 (RC3) is now available for testing. Please see the following pages for download links and testing instructions. In general, official live images arrive a few hours after the install images: see the links below for updates. When they appear, the download directory should be the same as that for install images, except with the trailing /Fedora/ replaced by /Live/. Installation: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test Desktop: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test Ideally, all Alpha, Beta, and Final priority test cases for installation [2] and desktop [3] should pass in order to meet the Final Release Criteria [4]. Help is available on #fedora-qa on irc.freenode.net [5], or on the test list [6]. Create Final Release Candidate (RC): Install CD/DVD (installation media): https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4697 Create Final Release Candidate (RC): Official Live Images: https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4699 F15 Final Blocker tracker bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=617261 F15 Final Nice-To-Have tracker bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=657621 [1] http://rbergero.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-15/f-15-quality-tasks.html [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Installation_validation_testing [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Desktop_validation_testing [4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_15_Final_Release_Criteria [5] irc://irc.freenode.net/fedora-qa [6] https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test ___ test-announce mailing list test-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test-announce -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 15 Final Release Candidate 3 (RC3) Available Now!
Thanks, I agree it's a hardware thing although ION / Atom combination isn't that rare and also used to work fine under F14. I have an older, larger laptop with Radeon graphics that works OK with F15. Other machines in the house use F15 and Intel graphics without problems. That said I really don't want to have a miscellany of different OSs in the house and the machine that doesn't work is my main one! -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ubuntu to switch to lightdm?
So, reading between the lines, is it fair to say that Ubuntu seem to have chosen a display manager to avoid dbus and consolekit? -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ubuntu to switch to lightdm?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think the available information supports any such conclusions concerning motivation. If you want to know the motivations for the decision hop the fence and go have a polite friendly chat about it with the people who made the decision. Hm. If I ask them I suspect I will waste time and get the justifications given in the blueprint, a few links away from what was posted here. So it supports more use cases than gdm? Actually I was looking for some intelligent analysis of the situation but I think I just lost interest. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 gotchas
On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Mike Chambers m...@miketc.net wrote: What and/or how are the extensions to install to help configure/run gnome-3 better? I have been using KDE but might try gnome-3 again if have access or know where to find them Hi, I have: gnome-shell-extensions-drive-menu-3.0.1-1.f016b9git.fc15.noarch gnome-tweak-tool-3.0.3-1.fc15.noarch The only way to find these so far has been to complain bitterly about stuff and wait for someone to say you can do that with... I honestly can't see any real problems with Gnome3 now, and it is tidier than the old shell. Nevertheless I expect there will be an entrenched minority that steadfastly refuse to accept it. OSs move on and the desktop look and feel should not be underestimated as a marketing tool. Compared to Windows and Mac the old Gnome looks dated. That said, I use an XFCE desktop on a VM for most of my stuff at work and it's fine, I will be pleased if it picks up more users as a result of this. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 gotchas
On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Michael Schwendt mschwe...@gmail.com wrote: It's entertaining already to see how people [try to] leave Ubuntu because of Unity, and to hear that they like Fedora 15's GNOME 3 better. ;) I did think of commenting that Gnome3 seemed comparable in scope to the change to Unity, but was better executed (in the sense that I'd heard more outrage about Unity). But it may be too early to say. I do wonder what will happen to Ubuntu and Fedora if say, Chrome OS or Android become viable for netbooks / laptops. I'm sure a lot of people wanting a stable, slick, functional client machine for everyday use would be attracted. So really Gnome and Ubuntu / Fedora have to try to look modern and attractive to survive. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 gotchas
Having used it for a while, I find it more than adequate. Currently F15 is blighted by some undiagnosed crashes for me (Bug 697157) but Gnome 3 just isn't a problem. There are some odd things that can be worked around, but the overall way of working is good. I found myself dragging a Windows XP window to the top of the screen recently to try to maximise it. The Gnome 3 stuff had just become ingrained. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GNOME 3 Fallback Mode
On the other hand it will be awesome when it's finished and possibly will remove the need for fallback mode altogether. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 gotchas
Hi, I made some noises on IRC about people upgrading to F15 (like myself) who would all come across the same surprises and would have to find a way to work around them. I suggested it might help to publish something like release notes but more user oriented, to help to ease the pain (and to defuse the many questions that will undoubtedly find their way to the various support forums). At the time no-one seemed to pick up on the idea. I wrote a blog post about it, maybe not the best way to help Fedora users so feel free to take the idea and the content and repackage it as appropriate. http://littlethorpe.net/wordpress/?p=334 Fedora 15 Gnome 3 gotchas If nothing else maybe I have included the right words so that users can Google for 'what the heck happened to my minimise button' or whatever and find some help. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 15 Beta RC1 Available Now!
I wasn't aware of the distinction between the candidates and the naming of the files downloaded didn't help, so I think some clarification might be worthwhile. By downloading a couple of TCs I came across this problem: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=694915 -Cam On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2011-04-08 at 16:37 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote: Why on earth do we need a 'candidate' for a release candidate, or an alpha or beta candidate. We have ordinal numbers on them ... so just use them. .. if RC1 is lacking - fine - we'll move to RC2 ... etc. My opinion of course :-) The actual pre-releases - Alpha, Beta - get distributed and promoted far and wide; they're required to meet certain quality standards to ensure they don't provide a really bad impression of the project and to make sure they actually provide for useful testing and feedback from 'normal' testers. The candidate builds get distributed and promoted in a very restricted way (they live on one server and are announced on the test and desktop mailing lists) and exist so that we can do testing to make sure they meet the standards expected of a 'public' release. Your scheme doesn't preserve the distinction between these different types of builds. To put it bluntly - especially with TCs, when we spin them we don't know for sure if they even work. We've had more than one TC build (even RC build) that was effectively DOA. Hell, on the Beta RC1 we span yesterday, anaconda cannot be run from any live image; that's not something we want to be putting out as a 'public' release, even a pre-release. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: manually fixing IPs
Jon, have you seen nmcli? If you can't do what you want to with it, maybe a feature request is in order. I get the impression that NM will generally do the right thing for most people most of the time, and when we are hacking on firmware, running a tftp server and the like we might want to use nmcli to take a device temporarily from NM's clutches and take manual control. I'm not sure it that's possible though with the current nmcli. I tried nmcli dev disconnect iface eth0 on my netbook which was connected to wlan0 and had nothing on eth0 - it errored saying that eth0 wasn't active to start with. I think keeping NM running for the system is a good thing, taking one device over for your own purposes is a better thing to do *if possible* than disabling NM entirely. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] 2011-02 Graphics Test Week recap
I'm curious about the accounting method. I see there are some Nouveau bugs listed CLOSED DUPLICATE. I raised one as a result of the test day, 679404, it was later marked duplicate of 679924 (which is in the list). Just wondering what it means when some bugs are listed and some aren't. -Cam On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 3:22 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: Another Graphics Test Week has gone by, so here's the statistical recap! Participation was back up again to one of its highest levels ever this time, which is great: thanks to everyone who came out and also promoted the event. We got some really solid testing in and already resolved some major issues for the F15 Alpha. Here's an updated version of the numbers I've been running: f11 nouveau: 104 tests, 42 bugs - ratio 0.40 f12 nouveau: 53 tests, 34 bugs - ratio 0.64 f13 nouveau: 78 tests, 26 bugs - ratio 0.33 f14 nouveau: 39 tests, 8 bugs - ratio 0.21 f15 nouveau: 83 tests, 55 bugs - ratio 0.66 f11 radeon: 55 tests, 46 bugs - ratio 0.84 f12 radeon: 61 tests, 81 bugs - ratio 1.33 f13 radeon: 48 tests, 33 bugs - ratio 0.69 f14 radeon: 32 tests, 18 bugs - ratio 0.56 f15 radeon: 66 tests, 38 bugs - ratio 0.58 f11 intel: 23 tests, 21 bugs - ratio 0.91 f12 intel: 29 tests, 31 bugs - ratio 1.07 f13 intel: 38 tests, 38 bugs - ratio 1.00 f14 intel: 33 tests, 28 bugs - ratio 0.84 f15 intel: 37 tests, 25 bugs - ratio 0.68 Intel and Radeon both posted solid bugs-to-tests ratios. Nouveau is up significantly; I theorize that the cause of this is the increased level of functionality needed to support Shell, which mostly falls in areas that are difficult for the nouveau driver (being based on reverse engineering, rather than provided specs, as with the other two drivers). Here's the other chart, tracking how we handle the bugs that are reported - obviously, this time adding the numbers for F14 as we can't see into the future for the F15 bugs... f11 nouveau: 42 bugs, 4 open, 8 closeddupe, 24 closedfixed, 6 closedunfixed - 70.59% f12 nouveau: 34 bugs, 11 open, 8 closeddupe, 14 closedfixed, 1 closedunfixed - 53.85% f13 nouveau: 27 bugs, 17 open, 6 closeddupe, 3 closedfixed, 1 closedunfixed - 14.29% f14 nouveau: 8 bugs, 5 open, 3 closeddupe - 0% (small sample) f11 radeon: 46 bugs, 14 open, 10 closeddupe, 19 closedfixed, 3 closedunfixed - 52.78% f12 radeon: 81 bugs, 19 open, 32 closeddupe, 28 closedfixed, 2 closedunfixed - 57.14% f13 radeon: 36 bugs, 28 open, 3 closeddupe, 5 closedfixed, 0 closedunfixed - 15.15% f14 radeon: 18 bugs, 13 open, 0 closeddupe, 3 closedfixed, 2 closedunfixed - 16.67% f11 intel: 21 bugs, 7 open, 1 closeddupe, 12 closedfixed, 1 closedunfixed - 60% f12 intel: 31 bugs, 7 open, 12 closeddupe, 12 closedfixed, 0 closedunfixed - 63.16% f13 intel: 42 bugs, 26 open, 4 closeddupe, 11 closedfixed, 1 closedunfixed - 28.95% f14 intel: 28 bugs, 21 open, 4 closeddupe, 1 closedfixed, 2 closedunfixed - 4.17% To refresh your memories, the percentage is 'closedfixed' / (bugs - 'closeddupe') * 100, the intention being to give an indication of what proportion of bug reports wind up in a fix. Full details in the F13 recap - http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2010-April/090271.html . This continues a worrying trend from last time; we really seem to be dropping our rate of fixing Test Day bugs. I will try to investigate in more detail to see what's happening here. The raw lists of bugs reported from the F15 Test Days follow. Thanks very much to all testers, and to the wonderful Fedora X.org developers and triagers: Adam Jackson Dave Airlie Jerome Glisse Ben Skeggs Matej Cepl Nouveau --- 679429 NEW - [NV86] Segfault logging out after startx 677461 NEW - [abrt] gnome-settings-daemon-2.91.9-4.fc15: __libc_start_main: Process /usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon was killed by signal 11 (SIGSEGV) 677555 NEW - [abrt] gnome-user-share-2.30.2-4.fc15: check_mixed_deps: Process /usr/libexec/gnome-user-share was killed by signal 6 (SIGABRT) 679494 NEW - [abrt] totem-1:2.91.6-4.fc15: find_root: Process /usr/bin/totem was killed by signal 11 (SIGSEGV) 677810 NEW - Fedora Rawhide LiveCD - crashes on startup @ mutter 679319 NEW - F15: NVA3/NVA5/NVA8/NVAF (GT2xx) issues (random hang, no 3d, no Xv) 679326 NEW - Shell only works on second try (likely due to too-short timeout on gnome-session-is-accelerated) 679330 NEW - [NV86] artifacts after loging into gnome 679331 NEW - after switching to terminal and back, window decorations are missing 679366 NEW - [NV1f] nForce2 IGP - flickering and unusable desktop 679509 NEW - multihead with DVI and TV connected crashes after user switch 679552 NEW - [NVa8] Nouveau Test Day: random drawing errors on GT200 [GeForce 210] [10de:0a65] 679559 NEW - nouveau display locks up - /usr/bin/Xorg (xorg_backtrace+0x2f) [0x4a120f] 679564 NEW - GeForce 6600 GT doesn't log into Gnome Shell, falls back to
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 15 Alpha RC1 Available Now!
I tested the live image and reproduced a problem seen with the nouveau test day image (and added more detail here) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=679404 I hope something can be done for this or F15 will be off limits for machines like mine (Nvidia Ion netbook) -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Plans for BTRFS in Fedora
Hi I wanted to second these questions... 2011/2/22 Jóhann B. johan...@gmail.com: Will there be any performance penalties making this move? [...] What benefit will this switch bring to the novice desktop end users? Will the novice desktop end user ever take advantages of any of the features that btrfs brings? Since upgrading (downgrading?) my netbook to use an SSD I went with the Anaconda defaults (using LVM etc) and that probably wasn't in my best interest - judging from benchmarks at the time of read performance in the LVM compared to the underlying device, also from the point of not being able to add complex disk arrays to the netbook any time soon. I think Fedora could do more to support lower end devices *well*, in addition to allowing people to use the very latest technology on larger (ie. desktop and server) platforms. My impression right now is I'd be interested to try BTRFS for the server and maybe larger desktops, but would probably want to avoid it for anything smaller. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Plans for BTRFS in Fedora
Josef, On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Josef Bacik jo...@toxicpanda.com wrote: Your impression is wrong, there has been quite a bit of work done to make BTRFS work well on small devices, it is the default filesystem for meego which goes on phones, which is much smaller than anything you are going to have on your netbook. Thanks, thanks for the info, I will be sure to test it when it is available. My impression was based on a quick read of the BTRFS FAQ. I saw more related to problems of limited disk space than to SSD support (but granted, what mention there is sounds promising). I will test. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: SSD support in Anaconda/F14
I'm confused now about what Anaconda has done. I checked with the commands from this site: http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/ And starting fdisk with different arguments gives more sensible looking results. Note that I haven't changed the on-disk structures at this point. [r...@newt ~]# fdisk -H 224 -S 56 /dev/sda Command (m for help): p Disk /dev/sda: 60.0 GB, 60022480896 bytes 224 heads, 56 sectors/track, 9345 cylinders, total 117231408 sectors Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes Disk identifier: 0x000e2854 Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 *2048 1026047 512000 83 Linux /dev/sda2 1026048 11722956758101760 8e Linux LVM Since C/H/S are a fiction, does this mean that the layout chosen by Anaconda is actually OK? Also I ran a command against the PV: [r...@newt ~]# pvs /dev/sda2 -o+pe_start PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree 1st PE /dev/sda2 vg_newt lvm2 a- 55.41g01.00m This also seems to suggest the 1st PE is reasonably aligned. Can anyone explain if I have misunderstood these commands? Next I checked for other tweaks that might be of use and found: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/geek-sheet-a-tweakers-guide-to-solid-state-drives-ssds-and-linux/9190 I changed the elevator to noop in /etc/rc.local and set noatime and discard in /etc/fstab. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ABRT opt-out (was Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo meeting)
Hi, On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: if it just invisibly doesn't run, I'd try it again, but if I'm running it from the console and it spits out a clear fatal error and crashes, yeah, I'm not going to run it again. That'd be pointless. I would hope that most people *would* run it again. I would run it with different arguments, then run it with strace, valgrind, gdb or similar. In many cases there might be damaged or missing files, kernel modules not loaded, network down, resources locked or unavailable, and many other things that can cause the program to fail but aren't inherently the fault of the program. Yes, it would still be a bug that it doesn't have better error checking but it happens. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: insane -19 nice level for system service (mailgraph) - is it acceptable?
Perhaps the issue is that the coding of the priority isn't intuitive. I thought -20 was 'highest priority' and high numbers were 'lower priority' Would something more meaningful and unambiguous be better? -Cam On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Once upon a time, Michał Piotrowski mkkp...@gmail.com said: I noticed that this service uses insane nice level -19 http://notendur.hi.is/~johannbg/systemd/etc/rc.d/init.d/mailgraph 8-| PRIORITY=-19 [..] daemon nice $PRIORITY $exe -l $MAILLOG -d \ --daemon-pid=/var/run/mailgraph.pid \ --daemon-rrd=/var/lib/mailgraph $OPTIONS The same priority is used in the sample script. Does this service _really_ needs such insane nice level? Why do you (repeatedly) call it insane? That's kind of rude. The process is running at a low priority level; do you have a problem with that? -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: nouveau gnome-shell (was: Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland)
I'm using the experimental 3d now with gnome shell. After a few days, it seems like it performs OK although it locks up for a few seconds now and then. It seems to recover and I can't see any obvious log messages around the time of the freeze. It does survive suspend/resume, which is great. My impression is that it runs slightly hotter than the nvidia driver but I could be imagining this (I don't have any figures). -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: nouveau gnome-shell (was: Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland)
At least it's winter now and a hot netbook is less of a problem than in the summer. On 9 Nov 2010 21:22, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-11-09 at 21:05 +, Camilo Mesias wrote: I'm using the experimental 3d now with gno... You're probably not. nouveau basically has no power management at present (it's under heavy development upstream, but I don't think ben's pulled any of it downstream yet). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listin... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland
That's true, using freenx to access a whole desktop works well with xfce and no sound. I can't imagine it working so well if trying to run gnome-shell, sound etc remotely. I get the impression a lot of the current desktop infrastructure doesn't make sense when accessed remotely, eg if I ssh'ed into a machine what could I usefully do with nm-applet or a lot of other desktop infrastructure? A lot of the desktop is already beyond the reach of X. On 9 Nov 2010 22:26, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote: On Tue, 09.11.10 23:14, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote: Lennart Poettering píše v Út 09. 11... Oh, of course you can blame X for that. There's simply no sane way how to get a parallel connection for D-Bus/GConf/ICE/PA/whatever to the main X11 display connection. Something like that has been tried a number of times, but in some way or the other it just failed in the end. It's a can of worms. Really, for example in the GConf case I know that Havoc spent quite some time to design the IPC so that it could be used alongside X11 on the network, but eventually gave up on it. I think it is fundamentally wrong to ask us to support setups where you might or might not share $HOME, might or might not share the D-Bus session bus, might or might not share the D-Bus system bus, might or might not share PA, might or might not share GConf, might or might not share X11 displays, in all combinations over the network at all times. Complete flexibility like that is not only impossible to manage or test, but also inherently slow. For example: if you say the D-Bus bus should be shared across the network, but $HOME shouldn't, then applications could not refer to files anymore in the bus protocols, which would basically require them to pipe everything through a bus, which is a textbook example how to make things slow. Of course, it's easy to assume that all the building blocks we build our desktop off would be completely independent black boxes, but turns they aren't, and are deeply integrated these days. The pixel-scraping approach is the only thing that in the end makes sense, since you have a very clear idea of what you share, and what you don't share, and what you share is only at the very very end of what you do, i.e. the last step of presentation of the app to the user. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/de... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland
Hi, how do you enable the missing 3d support for Nouveau? It came with mesa-dri-drivers-experimental. I just wanted to say thanks, I am running with this now, it seems to be certainly more than adequate ;-) to run gnome shell. No more akmod-nvidia for a while! -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland
If I wanted to step back to the pre-net era, I'd run Windows. I wonder if there will be someone saying (when all the apps are native Wayland apps) If I wanted to step back to the pre-stetic* era, I'd run X I get the impression that comparing current Fedora and Linux in general running on varied hardware to the latest Windows and MacOS examples reveals a lack of slickness that is easy for Linux fans to make excuses for. I frequently see low frame rates, tearing and high CPU usage (and put up with them). But it shows that current X based desktops are hitting a barrier that there isn't sufficient development effort to overcome. I have a rough idea of the hoops that software has to jump through to provide a smooth scrolling browser window (for example). Something that improves this can only be good for the desktop. I don't think that there is a realistic threat that GUI based tools etc will ever need tight media integration or be balkanised so that they are not usable over the net. And I don't think it's a valid reason to shun technologies that might bring the desktop experience up to modern standards. -Cam * I nearly wrote haptic but it's really more than that. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland
Is Fedora for developers or what? If it is exclusively for developers with the exclusion of general purpose features such as web browsing, photo management, and multimedia consumption then I'll have to find a more general purpose OS. I count myself as a developer but concede that I have a life too and a general purpose computer has to fit into that as a whole. We want to ditch extremely useful, ground-breaking features because of tearing when scrolling in a browser window? [I do *not* see any of those issues incidentally -- maybe you want to check your set-up and make sure you're not using non-free drivers] Historically there have been plenty of problems like the Firefox smooth scrolling under compiz bugs (at the time I understood the bugs to be caused by the difficulties of providing compiz features within the framework of X, I could be wrong). I last noticed tearing in fullscreen video on radeon HW... on other hardware I use the nvidia driver as it's generally better performing than the free one, really there is no argument here regarding free drivers as a platform for a multimedia desktop. As much as I love Nouveau's freeness, last time I checked I couldn't even run gnome shell on it. You have no evidence anyway that this tearing and high CPU load that you are seeing is caused by network transparency. No, but I can guess that something in the architecture as a whole is causing it to underperform, exploring an alternative might provide that evidence. I don't want to throw X away per se, but I would like comparable performance to other OSs. It's pretty unlikely since X messages are passed from application to server using shared memory in the local case, and how exactly did you expect the app to communicate with a Wayland server except using the precise same mechanisms? There are only a limited number of ways that two processes on a Unix machine can talk to each other. I can hope that an architecture with the lofty aims of every frame perfect would make a more usable desktop. It looks like the alternative is to stick with X and see other OSs lead the way in slickness. Maybe I'm biased because I overwhelmingly tend to use a command line for remote machines. What is the use case for remote X applications? The only thing I can think of that I've personally used this way is gparted, and I probably could have used fdisk without much effort. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland
I believe it is possible to do photo management, web browsing and watching video, even on the current version of Fedora. Indeed. It's not the point that it's possible or not. I could do much of that on a Windows 3.11 machine... Be honest with yourself, is it every bit as good as the experience on a non-free OS and software stack? I don't think it is. So in fact you are running non-free drivers. I have none of these problems with the free (Intel) drivers, and the performance is great, certainly more than adequate for web browsing, watching DVDs and video, and a little gaming. I am running several machines, including Intel based, low end radeon and Nvidia, like a lot of users... I also use, shock horror, non free software, because I am pragmatic about getting the most out of the machine rather than living in a free software hairshirt. I think that if the infrastructure was more geared towards performance then maybe the free apps would provide a more Mac-like experience instead of being also-rans. But I don't want to beat up free software or X, I just want the best possible experience from the desktop. With virtualization I have more Linux machines than ever (about 50 in active use at last count). All on my local 1GB network. Consequently I use X to them and to other physical machines _all the time_. Out of interest, do you use individual shells/terms or something that provides a more remote desktop like experience? I have to use a Windows laptop for work, and use many Linux VM servers, often set up for specific tasks or with specific networking. The way our organisation works (having tried lots of different approaches) is using NoMachines (which is X in a way). My point is that although X is involved at some point there are significant parts of the solution that aren't X - it still works. If there is no way to provide remote access for Weyland based systems (and I hope there will be a way that is more than adequate) then I can see the day when desktop users wanting a high quality experience and server users part company... -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland
On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Richard W.M. Jones rjo...@redhat.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 06, 2010 at 01:51:32PM +, Camilo Mesias wrote: I believe it is possible to do photo management, web browsing and watching video, even on the current version of Fedora. Indeed. It's not the point that it's possible or not. I could do much of that on a Windows 3.11 machine... Be honest with yourself, is it every bit as good as the experience on a non-free OS and software stack? I don't think it is. Perfectly honestly, yes, it's much better than OS X now. I really can't see this, so I will be keen to vote with my desktop and test Wayland as soon as possible. Out of interest, do you use individual shells/terms or something that provides a more remote desktop like experience? I use ssh -Y. Anything that sits in a huge window showing an entire desktop-in-a-desktop is so obviously the wrong way to do it, from both a usability and efficiency perspective, that I'm just astonished that people suggest I use something like VNC. We use both approaches, I suppose both have their merits, and we shouldn't rule out either method of working. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Ubuntu moving towards Wayland
Hi, On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Ben Boeckel maths...@gmail.com wrote: Camilo Mesias cam...@mesias.co.uk wrote: [..] As much as I love Nouveau's freeness, last time I checked I couldn't even run gnome shell on it. I was doing that back in November[1]. --Ben [1]http://blipper.dev.benboeckel.net/one-soap-box/2009/11/03/gnome-day-2-gnome-shell/ You mention gnome shell but not nouveau, how do you enable the missing 3d support for Nouveau? And does it only work for a subset of hardware? I'd be interested to try it. Lately I just get: Accelerated 3D graphics is not available Desktop effects require hardware 3D support. I have switched between nvidia and nouveau in testing F14, I prefer gnome shell but using it can lead to fragility (eg. install nvidia, configure gnome shell, update; temporarily disabling nvidia - broken desktop) -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Yubikeys are now supported
I'm not a security expert but I understood that the usual way to use these keys was to have one server that the key authenticates with, and further sites would be accessible through openID or similar - so the authentication is always with one server. Using the same device with mutliple servers is possible but increases the possibility of OTP being replayed - since one server is not aware that the other has consumed the OTP. Also my Yubikey can store more than one set of 'secrets' so it's really two keys in one. I have one that authenticates against the 'official' server and the secondary key is used with a private server. Worth considering if you want to use the same physical device over multiple servers. I hope some technical details will be published about the Fedora use of Yubikeys sometime soon. -Cam On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Paul Wouters p...@xelerance.com wrote: On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Mike McGrath wrote: We also decided to allow yubikeys as an authentication option for the larger community to some hosts and services like fedorapeople.org or https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/. When asked for a password, just use your yubikey to generate a otp instead. Those wishing to use one may purchase a yubikey on their own at: I suspect it'd be worth it to see if we could get one for Fedora. I have one and I've played with it in fedora. There is however an important catch. The server and the yubikey share the same AES symmetric key. This means that if the yubikey is used for multiple sites by one user, that user is sharing is his private key over various external sites. So if fedoraproject would accept it, and the same user uses this yubikey for another site, and that other site gets hacked, then fedoraproject could be hacked as well. I guess in a way it is like using the same password, but people might not be thinking of that when they have a device on them that they use. Paul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Need proventester karma for firstboot-1.113-4.fc14 (was: Re: bodhi v0.7.9 deployed)
I think the moral of this story is that the input to the process is fallible. Shit always happens. Automated systems that filter or delay the 'happening' should be backed up by statistics to show that they help... Otherwise, when they filter and delay attempts to fix problems by people who are trying to help, they will just cause frustration. -Cam On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:56 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote: On Sat, Oct 02, 2010 at 12:45:14AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Matthew Garrett wrote: Some packages were pushed to stable before they should have been, therefore we need to make it easier to push packages to stable? Yes! Sure, this sounds paradoxical, but my premise is that NO MATTER how strict you make the requirement for pushes to stable, there will ALWAYS be the possibility that sh*t happens and thus a need to be able to rush out fixes to stable as quickly as possible. And my premise is that we should be making harder for shit to happen, and the cases where it *does* should be examined carefully to determine the best way forwards. Force this untested package into stable isn't the best way to do things. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: GDM login issues F13: kbd switches to US keymap, mirror screens stops working
Hi I noted on your first bug that it sounds like one I had: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=552397 Regards, -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Search Engine Proposal
We wish we weren't and we want to learn from our mistakes rather than repeat them. In the case of the start page I believe it was a concession combined with the hope that it would be replaced with a free solution in the future. It at the very least should not used as a shining example of the way Fedora does things. Is Google really that bad or are some people being a bit too principled? Couldn't we think of the market leader of free-as-in-beer search engines as a commodity and just use it while it's free? I don't fret about running my computer on open source electricity. I think anyone who shudders at the thought of supporting Google by using their search should be condemned to use something that behaves like the RH's bugzilla search for the rest of their career... :) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Call for testing: F14 Alpha RC3/RC4 with Radeon graphics adapters
Hi, I have an ATI Mobility Radeon X300 based laptop (x86) and tried to boot the boot.iso by using livecd-iso-to-disk but the installer could not see the image (CD/DVD not present, other options NFS, local disk - not including the USB device, URL, etc) once the laptop booted from usb. It did not make it as far as X. Is it necessary to burn a DVD to try this test? I'm trying the live CD next but that wasn't part of the test. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Testing Fedora? Please enable SELinux if you can
Andrew, SELinux is very configurable, and its various protections can be turned on and off for each individual case. That's interesting, I think the last problem I ran into was having to set a boolean to get Picasa3 to run. This wasn't the whole fix, just one step. I was under the impression that my choice would affect the whole system. I would have preferred to make that setting just for Picasa3 (not even just for Wine). I started a BZ report 527147 once along similar lines. In fact I think the ideal user experience would be more along the lines of... User- installs Picasa3 using yum and the google testing repo User- runs Picasa3 Fedora- SELinux violation, 'picasa' is trying to mmap_low and this is a security risk. Please choose (a) disallow this every time (the safe option) (b) allow it this time only, ask next time (c) allow this every time The user can then make a choice without making wide reaching changes to security. Bear in mind a user might well try something like this only to decide to use another program instead (shotwell?) and it would be a shame to leave behind SELinux config after the program is uninstalled. I am quite tempted to reinstall sometime and try the restorecon -R -v /opt to see if it works, and make a flurry of BZ entries for everything else SELinux related as I install Spotify and Picasa3. Everything else works so well in F13 I think there's just a short way to go to bring SELinux to the same level. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Testing Fedora? Please enable SELinux if you can
OK, an update. I reinstalled F13, added Picasa 3 from the Google repo. It does run although it triggers tens of SELinux alerts about mmap_zero on unknown. The messages are pretty confusing really, they are complaining about unknown, They say I need to change booleans to allow the access and give the command to change mmap_low_allowed. But there is no mention of the more appropriate sounding wine_mmap_zero_ignore boolean that is mentioned on Dan's blog... Apart from that the corner of the troubleshoot browser shows Error while checking policy version. It does all look a bit suspicious! I don't want to enable mmap_low just yet as it sounds like there might be a better option. But I don't want to set the boolean to ignore the alerts. For all I know there might be some feature of Picasa that I haven't tried yet that requires mmap_low to be enabled - I will keep an eye open for crashes and bad behaviour. I think I will have to live with the ever growing list of alerts while it isn't clear what action to take for the best.. There is a problem with Picasa3 that prevents signing in to web albums... I found a hacky fix which involves copying wineinet.dll.so from the system wine over the Google one. That enables web album access. I take it this bug is well and truly in the Google domain. Out of interest I ran the restorecon command with -n to see what it would have changed and there was very little: # restorecon -nRv /opt restorecon reset /opt/google/picasa/3.0/wine/lib/wine/google-wininet.dll.so context unconfined_u:object_r:lib_t:s0-system_u:object_r:textrel_shlib_t:s0 restorecon reset /opt/google/picasa/3.0/wine/drive_c/Program Files/Google/Picasa3/runtime/distro.ini context unconfined_u:object_r:rpm_script_tmp_t:s0-system_u:object_r:usr_t:s0 Next I ran the Spotify installer and saw more alerts. The browser suggested the boolean solution again. When running the spotify binary I got another alert that suggested chcon -t textrel_shlib_t on the spotify.exe file. Yet Spotify seemed to work even without this. Again I'm not sure what to do for the best. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Testing Fedora? Please enable SELinux if you can
We recognize there may be situations when SELinux causes problems and you need to make it permissive or turn it off temporarily, but please try and keep it turned on if you possibly can, and if you're in a situation where you need to disable it, please let the developers know by filing a bug, so they can fix it and you can turn it back on. Thanks a lot! How sincere is this offer, because I can think of a few use cases that make a lot of work for anyone wanting to keep SELinux. These are realistic use cases that people in the real world will want to follow, that I follow every time I install Fedora. But I have given up providing feedback because the response is usually more like 'you shouldn't do that because it doesn't fit in with the SELinux way' rather than 'we can change SELinux to let you do that securely by XXX' The use cases in case anyone's interested: Install Picasa3 (which uses its own wine version*) and install Spotify (for Windows) using the 'native' Wine. *Google recommends turning off SELinux -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bug 531464 - why the WONTFIX?
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 5:14 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Upstream wants to talk to somebody who's actually experiencing the problem, not to a forwarding monkey. Really? I would have thought upstream would be grateful for any reports, preferring that to silence. If the actual user is reporting, good, if they are willing to test patched software, even better. But realistically most users won't be able to test bleeding edge stuff from upstream without fighting rpm a bit. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Bug on NetworkManager (#600656)
Hi, You can either run dbus_send --print-reply --system \ --dest=org.freedesktop.NetworkManager \ /org/freedesktop/NetworkManager \ org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.wake or run service network-manager stop rm /var/lib/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.state service network-manager start I have been poking around NM lately, would this have the same effect?: nmcli nm wakeup I noticed nmcli is used from the networking scripts. Coincidentally I saw a message on the local LUG about getting NM stuck and nothing making it 'go' again. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
preupgrade / anaconda's final stage
Hi, I ran a couple of preupgrades to go from F12 to F13 last night and it all went very smoothly. I have only one slight criticism and that is that the final stage of the upgrade takes a subjectively long time, during which the progress indication is a frantic bouncing progress bar. What is actually happening at this point? I looked in the shell and did strace of the processes running - they were making a lot of system calls although I'm not sure how useful they were. vmstat showed activity, some disk reads and mostly disk writes. Is there a better way to show progress at this point? -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 13 continuing the tradition of being an update monster
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Thomas Janssen thom...@fedoraproject.org wrote: What was that for? To start another flamewar including the challenge for a explicit person? Quite, a possibly valid point losing out to a flamebait codicil. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Reasons for hall monitoring
Personally I think Fedora is good at what it does, and although it causes me some frustration that Fedora isn't better at wooing mass market users, I wouldn't want to make radical changes to structures and processes to chase some goals. There would be much easier and more painless ways to woo these users without actually changing how Fedora is put together. I'm talking about marketing, evangelism and education. If there are technical issues that are found to hold this back then let them be addressed, but don't change the project and risk alienating the contributors for the sake of *theoretical* improvements. Adam - I use Fedora at home - one server and four laptop / PC workstations. It's very fit for purpose, in fact has less downtime and is more easily maintained than the two Windows machines we have. My mum uses Fedora too. At work we use CentOS but that is historical, we might as easily be running Fedora. I think the barriers to mass adoption by and large aren't technical. Also these goals really shouldn't be used as a rationale for changes unless you are sure of what you will achieve. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Reasons for hall monitoring
On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 02:45:53PM -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: This thread is now closed. We've received repeated complaints about the redundancy of it. No further posts to this thread will be allowed. I'm disappointed that the thread is closed when there seems to be an issue that isn't resolved. Wouldn't it be better to try to focus the discussion rather than ignore the issues? Call me cynical but I don't see how 'repeated complaints' is justification to end a thread. Were there more people complaining than those participating? It's very easy to ignore a thread if you think it's unimportant. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: FESCo wants to ban direct stable pushes in Bodhi (urgent call for feedback)
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: this is a *terrible* idea. We may see users as a 'resource', but they don't see themselves this way. We should not interrupt their usage of their computer to try and exploit them to our ends. What if it was an opt-in scheme? Users would consent to receive a limited number of contacts about their current packages and for their trouble would get streamlined access to potential fixes. I think there's enough in that for the opt-in scheme to be marketed successfully, because although some people would see the interactions as annoying, others would welcome the chance to participate. -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Call for F13 release slogan suggestions
How about... Prepare for launch Escape velocity Throttle up Go supernova Ignite -Cam -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ABRT frustrating for users and developers
Can we draw any parallels from work in the commercial world? (I was going to use the word 'professional' but don't want to disparage open source work... it's just a different ecosystem) So at work we have to produce a software product. We test the product to the best of our ability / to test plans / regression tests. We make an internal release and it's tested further. We release to customers and they do their own testing. Customers roll out the release for general use. At any point in the testing, defects are found and reported. These can inherently be more or less useful depending on the complexity of the fault, the level of detail, correctness, etc. BUT if there is a core file then it's always more useful than a report with no core file. Having said that the things that can be done with a mere backtrace are limited. I would almost always need to look at the corefile too, and would be frustrated if it wasn't available. Perhaps the workflow that starts with ABRT providing a backtrace needs to be significantly different to the workflow for a manually submitted bug. More automated perhaps? What if every component had a placeholder bug for undiagnosed ABRT info. Keeping all of them together would help to gauge which are significant and which are one-in-a-million cosmic rays flipping RAM bits etc. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ABRT frustrating for users and developers
cores typically compress fantastically well, too. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
