Re: dnf even allows to uninstall RPM and systemd without warnings
2014-06-23 17:51 GMT+02:00 Gerald B. Cox gb...@bzb.us: This has got to be the silliest thing I've ever seen, but whatever. You enter the command dnf remove dnf, and guess what? It removes dnf. You enter the command dnf remove kernel, and guess what, it removes the kernel. What a concept, it does what you tell it to do. Not withstanding the fact that: 1. You have to be in root mode to invoke 2. It lists everything it is going to do, and you have to explicitly say YES. So we're spending valuable developer time on things like this, when there are certainly more important things that need attention. Just astounding. [...] Hopefully you don't write professional software with this kind of attitude. We don't live in the seventies any more, we moved on and start making things better. We introduce safety features in nearly every area of our life, like cars, planes, trains and even guns (you need to unlock the gun before you can shoot in your foot). In none of these areas you can simply do dangerous things, all professional and modern systems ask you up to four, five times if you are really sure when you try to do dangerous things. This is how professional software should act like nowadays and that behavior is what I would expect from a yum replacement. If DNF reaches this kind of professional level, fine, replace yum. If not, don't replace yum with DNF, simple thing. Regards Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: dnf even allows to uninstall RPM and systemd without warnings
2014-06-24 11:36 GMT+02:00 Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com: On 24 June 2014 10:31, Thomas Bendler m...@bendler-net.de wrote: you need to unlock the gun before you can shoot in your foot... ...and modern systems ask you up to four, five times How many different locks does a gun have? Last time I checked there was one safety catch -- DNF asks you for 'y/N' confirmation with a Three safety locks the last time I used it. After inserting the magazine I had to load the bullet first, then I had to unlock the gun and then I had to pull the trigger. I don't think that this procedure happens accidentally. HUGE list of packages to be removed. If you're not sure whether removing systemd or glibc is a bad idea, perhaps having root access isn't the best plan in the world. There are _so_ _many_ _ways_ to hose your system with root access, I really don't think we can or should baby-proof just one low level command. Because you don't think about it dosen't mean others think about it. If you build scripts that provision systems after minimal install, doing thinks like yum -y update, reboot and do cleanup like yum -y remove kernel, it works fine with yum but completely crash your system with DNF. Of course, you can wrap around this and build you own checks, but why should the checks be implemented in the scripts if the current update manager already provide this kind of checks and features? Regards Thomas -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: dnf even allows to uninstall RPM and systemd without warnings
2014-06-24 11:40 GMT+02:00 Florian Weimer fwei...@redhat.com: On 06/24/2014 11:31 AM, Thomas Bendler wrote: Hopefully you don't write professional software with this kind of attitude. Please don't try to win arguments by labeling the opposition as incompetent. You won't convince anyone, and it contributes to making the Fedora mailing lists a hostile place. This has nothing to do with incompetent or wining, this is not my point. The point is, modern software development introduces new concepts and also new safety features. If you take objects and methods as an example, getter and setter methods were introduced to make the handover of variables more bullet proof and to filter out wrong, dangerous, ..., statements. This is something that I simply expect when I use professional software like Fedora and this is why I talked about professional software. Regards Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
2013/7/15 Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de [...] Well, assuming that bash is entirely in memory. And also, note that neither cat, nor cp, nor tail are actually bash builtins and will not work. It's pretty hard (though certainly possible) viewing files with just bash builtins. echo $( /var/log/messages) [...] Note that we do include journalctl on all our livecds. Also, most distributions do include it in some way or another, and you do not need to boot systemd to use to it access your journal files. There are more Live-CDs in the wild without journalctl than Live-CDs with journalctl. Regards, Thomas -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop
2013/1/29 Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl [...] I've seen the changes that various GNOME developers as well as Red Hat employees have made. I've seen GNOME developers trying to understand issues and make changes. I've even tried to summarize this in various release notes. Now I'm not sure who you mean with nobody. I assume Red Hat employees working on GNOME. In which case that's factually wrong. [...] The UI will always be an emotional and subjective thing. Personally I think that Gnome 3 is a good development but could still do things better (i.e. take a look at Unity and think about there ideas to save space on the desktop like global menu and stuff like this which would be helpfull for guys like me using 14 laptop displays). But I don't think you can do much against posts like I would like to have my old Gnome 2 desktop back. They will always have the impression not to be heard anymore, that's the nature of radically change the UI design. Regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [@core] minimal install size assessment, f17 vs. f18
2012/12/19 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com [...] Oh dear, sorry, I just rebooted and lost that data (I tend to keep this kind of file in /tmp). I could re-generate it if you're really interested. [...] I think this would be a nice to have on the wiki page to document the outcome of the discussions. Regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [@core] minimal install size assessment, f17 vs. f18
2012/12/18 Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com Just for interest, here's the current (and likely final) state of minimal install package set for f18 vs. f17. [...] Can you also point to a page with the hole list of packages in minimal? Otherwise you need to know what was allready in minimal back in f17. Regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set
2012/11/13 Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com [...] - Minimal tools for admins less man-db procps-ng vim-minimal Is man-db really necessary? In the man pages included in the man-db package are not really helpful for a core system ... from my point of view. [...] - Get mail off the box (and define a default for doing so) sendmail Does an MTA really make sense in the core definition? The configuration of MTA is nowadays much more complex compared to the old days. Normaly you need a FQDN, you need a SMTP relay and lot other stuff more. So you will only get the mails off the system after a lot of configuration work which can, from my point of view, also include the installation of an MTA. Regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set
2012/11/14 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org [...] I'd like to go back a step here to the question starting the thread. There's plenty of time to go over each package, but the basic question is intent. Clearly man pages aren't necessary for a super-minimal JEOS image, but that's not *historically* been the intent of @core, and based on the discussion so far I think it will continue to not be. [...] Ok, but what is the intent? The first mail was a questioning what should be the scope of core and I didn't see a discussion answering this question. I think we should first define the mission statement and then discuss the technical details. Or is it only unclear to me what the intent is? Regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set
2012/11/14 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org default install of a small set of packages necessary for a consistent Fedora experience including minimal admin tools I was just surprised that there was no discussion about your proposal, instead, there was immediately a discussion about the packages that should be in core. So should this definition be the one that we are working on? From my point of view, core should only contain kernel, network, ssh-server plus yum to be ready for installation (locally and remotely). But if the rest of the group say, no, we need more (i.e. minimal admin tools), fine with me. But then we have something that we agreed on and that can be documented as the core base. Regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set
2012/11/14 Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net [...] Ehh, for local root mails from failing cron jobs, less /var/mail/root works just fine. :) Sending mails with telnet also works fine but I don't think that this is the question ;). We work on the definition of core and what will be inside. If we say, mail must be inside we should also install a client to access the mail. That's why I wrote, we should define what core is first (and document it) and then talk about the packages which should be in core. Regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set
2012/11/12 Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org [...] Yeah: if we get to the point where every real install has to add the same subset of packages to core, I don't think we've succeeded in doing anything except make more work for the whole world. A cron daemon and (at least basic) MTA fall in the same area, I think. But what about ssh-clients? Is there a reasonable yardstick rule we can make, or is it pragmatically best to just make per-package decisions? Depends on the scope. I think that the B definition plus ssh-server goes into the right direction. The minimal system should have networking in place and ssh ready to interact with the fresh installation. More stuff is not necessary. If you need more, invoke yum and install whatever you need (so yum should also be in the core definition). Things like cron, MTA and other stuff should from my point of view not be in the core installation, this is more something like core plus lsb. Regards Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [@core] working definition for the minimal package set
2012/11/13 Christopher Meng cicku...@gmail.com I don't know Fedora minimal looks like...FOR SERVER USE the Minimal includes: [...] BUT FOR DESKTOP USE,I think it should also have a desktop based on server version...That's what is troubling me...If it [...] This is something we shouldn't mix. When we are talking about core I would assume it is the core for everything, regardless if it is a server or a desktop. So if we talk about server minimal or desktop minimal, we talk about core + X for server minimal and core + Y for desktop minimal. So from my point of view, core is not minimal, it is the base for every later taste, regardless if server, desktop, mobile or whatever. Regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: packaging puppet modules
2012/6/27 Ken Dreyer ktdre...@ktdreyer.com I was looking briefly into packaging some Puppet modules, and I was curious if anyone else has gone down this road. [...] Does anyone have suggestions for package naming conventions? It looks like the upstream modules include the creators' names as part of the package names, which strikes me as a little verbose from the perspective of Fedora packaging. I don't think that it make much sense to pack the modules as RPMs. Under normal circumstances they must be customized in several different locations and would only produce a lot of *.rpmnew files after upgrades without proper function test possibilities. The more common way is to organize the modules in a VCS. Kind regards, Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Usr Move - More, Please
2012/1/30 Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com [...] If (1) we mount /usr ro over the network, and (2) we want /usr to be reserved for managed software (for a variety of reasons), then /usr/local really doesn't fit anymore. Why doesn't /usr/local fit anymore? It was especailly designed for this kind of setup. It will not fit if you define everything underneath /usr as managed software, but FHS didn't do this in the past and nearly all distributions I know didn't work like this. Because /opt is the only other current directory that makes sense for locally-compiled programs, I would symlink /usr/local - /opt. This could be an option, but several commercial programs use something like /opt/appname what is also valid FHS style. If you symlink /usr/local you could end up an a mixed /opt/lib, /opt/bin, /opt/appname thing. I understand that the FHS recommends installing to /opt/appname, but there is no enforcement of that. Currently compliance is a matter of local policy. FHS is a recommendation, nothing more and nothing less. It should only help to find a common base for all distributions like LSB does. But this also implicate that it won't help if only one distribution change the whole FHS style without having the other distributions involved. So putting all binaries to an already defined location within FHS is one thing, but having several new locations is a complete other story an much harder to realize. Regards Thomas -- Linux ... enjoy the ride! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ixgbe/udev mystery
2011/3/26 Gilboa Davara gilb...@gmail.com [...] Have you tried using the latest ixgbe drivers from intel.com [1]? It's far newer (v3.2.10) than the one shipped with the kernel and in the past, I've had far less issues with it. [...] Yep, compiled and installed this one as well but same error. Regards, Thomas -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ixgbe/udev mystery
2011/3/26 Andy Gospodarek go...@redhat.com [...] I don't have any great suggestions about why this is broken, but I would suggest you open a bug at bugzilla.redhat.com with the full details of this failure. If you let me know what the bug # is (email is fine) after you open it, I'll make sure the right folks take a look. Done, bug ID is 691122. Regards, Thomas -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
ixgbe/udev mystery
Hi @all,
I've setup a F14 box (minimal install) on a Supermicro server. So far, so
good. After some configuration (mainly automtic stuff done by puppet) and a
reboot I noticed that only the 1Gb network cards where configured but not
the 10Gb cards. I didn't even see eth2 and eth3 using ifonfig -a. A look
into /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules shows only entries for the
1Gb cards:
# This file was automatically generated by the /lib/udev/write_net_rules
# program, run by the persistent-net-generator.rules rules file.
#
# You can modify it, as long as you keep each rule on a single
# line, and change only the value of the NAME= key.
# PCI device 0x8086:0x1096 (e1000e) (custom name provided by external tool)
SUBSYSTEM==net, ACTION==add, DRIVERS==?*,
ATTR{address}==00:30:48:d7:1c:9e, ATTR{dev_id}==0x0, ATTR{type}==1,
KERNEL==eth*, NAME=eth0
# PCI device 0x8086:0x1096 (e1000e) (custom name provided by external tool)
SUBSYSTEM==net, ACTION==add, DRIVERS==?*,
ATTR{address}==00:30:48:d7:1c:9f, ATTR{dev_id}==0x0, ATTR{type}==1,
KERNEL==eth*, NAME=eth1
So I've added the 10Gb cards manually (from an Ubuntu installation on an
equal box):
# PCI device 0x8086:0x10ec (ixgbe)
SUBSYSTEM==net, ACTION==add, DRIVERS==?*,
ATTR{address}==00:1b:21:3b:6c:19, ATTR{dev_id}==0x0, ATTR{type}==1,
KERNEL==eth*, NAME=eth2
# PCI device 0x8086:0x10ec (ixgbe)
SUBSYSTEM==net, ACTION==add, DRIVERS==?*,
ATTR{address}==00:1b:21:3b:6c:18, ATTR{dev_id}==0x0, ATTR{type}==1,
KERNEL==eth*, NAME=eth3
So I also added ifcfg-eth2 and ifcfg-eth3 to /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts
with something like this (real IP configuration will be done later):
DEVICE=eth2
HWADDR=00:1b:21:3b:6c:19
NM_CONTROLLED=yes
ONBOOT=no
Now the funny stuff starts, after the first reboot the devices eth2 and eth3
shown up typing ifconfig -a. After the second reboot the eth2 and eth3
interface disappeared again and I now see in dmesg:
[6.159363] ixgbe: Intel(R) 10 Gigabit PCI Express Network Driver -
version 2.0.62-k2
[6.159367] ixgbe: Copyright (c) 1999-2010 Intel Corporation.
[6.159425] ixgbe :0c:00.0: enabling device ( - 0002)
[6.159435] ixgbe :0c:00.0: PCI-APIC IRQ transform: INT B - IRQ 17
[6.159449] ixgbe :0c:00.0: setting latency timer to 64
[...]
[7.039039] ixgbe :0c:00.0: HW Init failed: -15
[7.039077] ixgbe: probe of :0c:00.0 failed with error -15
[7.039099] ixgbe :0c:00.1: enabling device ( - 0002)
[7.039108] ixgbe :0c:00.1: PCI-APIC IRQ transform: INT A - IRQ 16
[7.039119] ixgbe :0c:00.1: setting latency timer to 64
[7.895037] ixgbe :0c:00.1: HW Init failed: -15
[7.895056] ixgbe: probe of :0c:00.1 failed with error -15
Any ideas?
Regards, Thomas
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Re: ixgbe/udev mystery
2011/3/25 Andy Gospodarek go...@redhat.com [...] Your devices are not showing up because the driver is failing to load. That is one strange thing, modprobe didn't report any error and you can see the driver in the lsmod list. Erroe -15 is IXGBE_ERR_RESET_FAILED, so it seems there is either something wrong with your cards of you are hitting a driver bug. From time to time the card come up (after changes in /etc/udev/rules.d/70-*net*) and I get errors like: [ 234.127257] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_disable_rx_queue: RXDCTL.ENABLE on Rx queue 0 not cleared within the polling period [ 234.132529] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_disable_rx_queue: RXDCTL.ENABLE on Rx queue 1 not cleared within the polling period [ 234.136400] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_disable_rx_queue: RXDCTL.ENABLE on Rx queue 2 not cleared within the polling period [ 234.140396] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_disable_rx_queue: RXDCTL.ENABLE on Rx queue 3 not cleared within the polling period [ 234.144402] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_disable_rx_queue: RXDCTL.ENABLE on Rx queue 4 not cleared within the polling period [ 234.148405] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_disable_rx_queue: RXDCTL.ENABLE on Rx queue 5 not cleared within the polling period [ 234.152408] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_disable_rx_queue: RXDCTL.ENABLE on Rx queue 6 not cleared within the polling period [ 234.156408] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_disable_rx_queue: RXDCTL.ENABLE on Rx queue 7 not cleared within the polling period [ 234.212147] ixgbe: eth2: ixgbe_watchdog_link_is_up: NIC Link is Up 10 Gbps, Flow Control: RX/TX When I try to set an IP adress. You should probably turn on dynamic debugging for the ixgbe module and see if you can figure out what might be going wrong. A guide for using dynamic debugging can be found in Documentation/dynamic-debug-howto.txt. I'm already struggeling with the debugfs, sorry but I need a documentation that a system administrator can understand :). One remark, the error occured with the standard ixgbe module (2.0.62-k2), so I upgraded the module to the latest version (3.2.10-NAPI) but still have the same error. Regards, Thomas -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: ixgbe/udev mystery
2011/3/25 Thomas Bendler m...@bendler-net.de [...] One remark, the error occured with the standard ixgbe module (2.0.62-k2), so I upgraded the module to the latest version (3.2.10-NAPI) but still have the same error. And another remark, the network card work without problems when using Ubuntu 11.04.2 instead of Fedora (ixgbe driver version 2.0.44-k2). Regards, Thomas -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
