Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Norvald H. Ryeng]

On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 22:57:27 +0200, Ken Dreyer   
wrote:


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Norvald Ryeng  
 wrote:


If you want us to do more, please say so. We're happy to help out.


Thanks for extending the offer. Would you mind commenting on the
mysql-workbench issues too? As Remi's pointed out a couple times,
there's a long list of crasher bugs that have been filed with abrt in
Bugzilla, and Remi has orphaned that package because it was too much
work to remove the bundled libraries.


I don't work on WB myself, so this is second hand info. I hope I'm not  
distorting it too much:


As of WB 6.0, most bundled libraries have been removed. There are  
currently only two bundled libraries that are needed: scintilla and  
antlr-runtime. These are patched versions of the libraries that we haven't  
been able to get rid of yet. We're trying to, but we need to get some  
patches accepted upstream first.


As I understand it, the current inflow of bugs is because WB in Fedora  
uses a non-bundled antlr-runtime. The bundled version includes at least  
one bugfix that is necessary for WB to work. This has been reported  
upstream and against the antlr3-C package in Fedora (bug #966973).


Regards,

Norvald H. Ryeng
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Ken Dreyer]

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Norvald Ryeng  wrote:
>
> If you want us to do more, please say so. We're happy to help out.

Thanks for extending the offer. Would you mind commenting on the
mysql-workbench issues too? As Remi's pointed out a couple times,
there's a long list of crasher bugs that have been filed with abrt in
Bugzilla, and Remi has orphaned that package because it was too much
work to remove the bundled libraries.

I use mysql-workbench in my daily work as a developer and system
administrator, and it would be really nice to keep it in Fedora.
Unfortunately long list of currently-filed bugs is scaring me off from
being a co-maintainer :)

- Ken
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Reindl Harald]

Am 23.08.2013 15:06, schrieb Rich Mattes:
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:40 AM, James Hogarth  > wrote:
> 
> Frankly I'm still of the opinion the Oracle distribution of the MySQL 
> based server should be dropped
> entirely... If Oracle want 'community-mysql' to exist for Fedora and want 
> to maintain it themselves then they
> can set up their own repositories on their own infrastructure and these 
> compatibilities issues with Fedora can
> be removed entirely as a result.
> 
> If someone (Oracle-employee or not) is willing to go through the trouble of 
> learning the packaging guidelines,
> submitting and working through a review, getting sponsored, and getting a 
> package into the distribution, what basis
> does anyone have to block that effort? 

look at the mess in the mariadb.spec caused by this

frankly, that is why i maintain my own package which has no longer
anything common with the Fedora ones except some needed patches



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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Norvald Ryeng]

- james.hoga...@gmail.com wrote:

> From the first date Honza announced the intended feature we heard a
> lot of promises from Oracle about how they would act with stewardship
> but words are cheap - so far in all this time there's been little of
> any actual substance.

I get the feeling the discussion is about maintainership, but taking over 
maintainership has not been an issue. Honza is the maintainer. He's doing a 
good job, and last I heard he intends to continue doing so for a while. What 
we/I did for F19 was to help solve the problem at hand: Find a way to have both 
MySQL and MariaDB in Fedora. And it worked. Together we found a solution.

While Honza is still the maintainer, Bjørn has stepped up to help with 
packaging. He has made the 5.6 package that is currently in review, and Honza 
is reviewing it. As part of this effort, we've also had engineers in the 
background fixing bugs to reduce the number of patches applied during packaging.

If you want us to do more, please say so. We're happy to help out.

Regards,

Norvald H. Ryeng
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Bjorn Munch]

On 22/08 09.27, Bjorn Munch wrote:
> 
> I will get back with more details later.

I have now made new packages available and updated #958131.

- Bjorn
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[James Hogarth]

On 23 August 2013 14:06, Rich Mattes  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:40 AM, James Hogarth wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Frankly I'm still of the opinion the Oracle distribution of the MySQL
>> based server should be dropped entirely... If Oracle want 'community-mysql'
>> to exist for Fedora and want to maintain it themselves then they can set up
>> their own repositories on their own infrastructure and these
>> compatibilities issues with Fedora can be removed entirely as a result.
>>
>
> If someone (Oracle-employee or not) is willing to go through the trouble
> of learning the packaging guidelines, submitting and working through a
> review, getting sponsored, and getting a package into the distribution,
> what basis does anyone have to block that effort?  We have packaging
> guidelines for inter-package conflicts, and those issues must be resolved
> as part of the package review anyway.  The idea that we can single out an
> organization or a software package and say "You can't put this in Fedora,"
> in spite of the fact that the package in question can made to abide by all
> of Fedora's guidelines and policies (albeit with a little bit of work and
> collaboration,) seems contradict the "Friends" and "Features" foundations.
>
> If what they're doing becomes actively harmful to the distribution, then
> we can take it up with FESCo.  Otherwise, I think we have to treat them
> like any other community member regardless of our feelings about their
> employer.
>
>
I agree overall which is why I suggest the official orphaning of
community-mysql ... it only seems like it will be a pain to keep both that
and MariaDB for the existing maintainers.

If another party (whether it be corporate sponsorship via Oracle or a
random individual) wants to pick up the pain of community-mysql packaging
adhering to the Fedora Packaging Guidelines then good for them but the
reasons for switching to MariaDB in the beginning during the F19 release
was down to lack of transparency (eg test cases and security notices) from
upstream...

>From the first date Honza announced the intended feature we heard a lot of
promises from Oracle about how they would act with stewardship but words
are cheap - so far in all this time there's been little of any actual
substance.

After many weeks (two or three months maybe?) of waiting Bjorn announced
himself as the maintainer of MySQL without apparently any communication
with the existing maintainers first - at least Honza stated "I'm really
glad to see some real action from your part finally"

http://mm3test.fedoraproject.org/hyperkitty/list/de...@mm3test.fedoraproject.org/thread/LWB37ALUAM5PLXGTQLVQBRAHPQPXLWKE/

If they do manage to comply with FPG and have a proper RPM and act the part
of "Friends" (as the reminder had to go last time) then fantastic... but
there really has been little if any evidence of that so far - all the way
since the Sun purchase in fact.
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Rich Mattes]

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:40 AM, James Hogarth wrote:

>
>
> Frankly I'm still of the opinion the Oracle distribution of the MySQL
> based server should be dropped entirely... If Oracle want 'community-mysql'
> to exist for Fedora and want to maintain it themselves then they can set up
> their own repositories on their own infrastructure and these
> compatibilities issues with Fedora can be removed entirely as a result.
>

If someone (Oracle-employee or not) is willing to go through the trouble of
learning the packaging guidelines, submitting and working through a review,
getting sponsored, and getting a package into the distribution, what basis
does anyone have to block that effort?  We have packaging guidelines for
inter-package conflicts, and those issues must be resolved as part of the
package review anyway.  The idea that we can single out an organization or
a software package and say "You can't put this in Fedora," in spite of the
fact that the package in question can made to abide by all of Fedora's
guidelines and policies (albeit with a little bit of work and
collaboration,) seems contradict the "Friends" and "Features" foundations.

If what they're doing becomes actively harmful to the distribution, then we
can take it up with FESCo.  Otherwise, I think we have to treat them like
any other community member regardless of our feelings about their employer.

Rich
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Johannes Lips]

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 9:40 AM, James Hogarth wrote:

> On 22 August 2013 08:27, Bjorn Munch  wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes we are! Sorry for the long silence. The window for F19 closed so
>> it became less urgent, then I had vacation, was sick, then others here
>> were on vacation but we're all here now and I shall be uploading new
>> packages with MySQL 5.6.13 very soon. They are already ready
>> internally, but I need to do some final checks and a scratch build. I
>> was indeed planning to do that today anyway.
>>
>> I will get back with more details later.
>>
>>
> It's this sort of behaviour that leads many of us to want to wash our
> hands of Oracle in the first place...
>
Sorry to say, but to me it rather sounds just plain human.


>
> As for the 'window for F19' well you've missed the window for F20 now as
> well ...
>
> However that is somewhat of a moot point given that (and the AOO issues
> are similar but let's stay focused on mysql/mariadb) things like spec
> files, package reviews and so on don't need a release to target anyway -
> they just need bugzilla tickets and builds in koji following the standard
> packaging guidelines that everyone - big company or little individuals -
> need to follow.
>
> Once things are building cleanly there and package review is passed (and
> any outstanding conflict questions are dealt with) then fine look at adding
> it as a feature for a future Fedora - but that is a long way off at this
> point still it seems.
>
> Frankly I'm still of the opinion the Oracle distribution of the MySQL
> based server should be dropped entirely... If Oracle want 'community-mysql'
> to exist for Fedora and want to maintain it themselves then they can set up
> their own repositories on their own infrastructure and these
> compatibilities issues with Fedora can be removed entirely as a result.
>
> As for an upgrade of community-mysql from 5.5 to 5.6 that should probably
> be discussed or be considered as a feature in case of knock on issues with
> respect to F18 users upgrading (didn't the obsolete for mariadb only cover
> < 5.5?) plus the loss of file level compatibility for someone to make a
> switch between community-mysql and mariadb at their choosing... plus
> there's a lot of non-backwards compatible changes that people need to be
> aware of from 5.5 to 5.6:
>
> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/upgrading-from-previous-series.html
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[James Hogarth]

On 22 August 2013 08:27, Bjorn Munch  wrote:

>
> Yes we are! Sorry for the long silence. The window for F19 closed so
> it became less urgent, then I had vacation, was sick, then others here
> were on vacation but we're all here now and I shall be uploading new
> packages with MySQL 5.6.13 very soon. They are already ready
> internally, but I need to do some final checks and a scratch build. I
> was indeed planning to do that today anyway.
>
> I will get back with more details later.
>
>
It's this sort of behaviour that leads many of us to want to wash our hands
of Oracle in the first place...

As for the 'window for F19' well you've missed the window for F20 now as
well ...

However that is somewhat of a moot point given that (and the AOO issues are
similar but let's stay focused on mysql/mariadb) things like spec files,
package reviews and so on don't need a release to target anyway - they just
need bugzilla tickets and builds in koji following the standard packaging
guidelines that everyone - big company or little individuals - need to
follow.

Once things are building cleanly there and package review is passed (and
any outstanding conflict questions are dealt with) then fine look at adding
it as a feature for a future Fedora - but that is a long way off at this
point still it seems.

Frankly I'm still of the opinion the Oracle distribution of the MySQL based
server should be dropped entirely... If Oracle want 'community-mysql' to
exist for Fedora and want to maintain it themselves then they can set up
their own repositories on their own infrastructure and these
compatibilities issues with Fedora can be removed entirely as a result.

As for an upgrade of community-mysql from 5.5 to 5.6 that should probably
be discussed or be considered as a feature in case of knock on issues with
respect to F18 users upgrading (didn't the obsolete for mariadb only cover
< 5.5?) plus the loss of file level compatibility for someone to make a
switch between community-mysql and mariadb at their choosing... plus
there's a lot of non-backwards compatible changes that people need to be
aware of from 5.5 to 5.6:

http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/upgrading-from-previous-series.html
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Orcan Ogetbil]

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:27 AM, Bjorn Munch wrote:
> On 21/08 17.26, Ken Dreyer wrote:
>> Are the Oracle employees still around?
>
> Yes we are! Sorry for the long silence. The window for F19 closed so
> it became less urgent, then I had vacation, was sick, then others here
> were on vacation but we're all here now and I shall be uploading new
> packages with MySQL 5.6.13 very soon.

For future reference, we have a wiki page where you can add your away
information. It is a useful tool to check when someone is missing in
action.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Vacation

Best,
Orcan
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Andrew Rist]

On 8/21/2013 5:01 PM, Chris Adams wrote:

Once upon a time, Ken Dreyer  said:

I fear a similar fate is going to befall mysql-workbench before too
long, since it's been orphaned for a while. Are the Oracle employees
still around?

I looked a while back, and it is marked "deprecated" in the Fedora
package database.  I'm not sure why it wasn't just orphaned, since AFAIK
it still works, still maintained, and there's no direct replacement.

There are several of us still around.  Bjorn has been working on the 
packages and chimed in earlier.
We'd really like to get 5.6 into Fedora as it's been GA for 6 months 
now.  Also, we just released workbench 6.0 and we would love to get that 
and our latest connectors in as well.
For that, it would be made much easier with a different namespace for 
mysql and each of the forks (esp. the client libraries)
I know a lot of the current communications about the packages is going 
on in the background, but when issues come up, either bring it up here 
or contact us directly.  We are seriously interested in helping out 
where we can.


Andrew

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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Bjorn Munch]

On 21/08 17.26, Ken Dreyer wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:54 AM, James Hogarth  
> wrote:
> 
> > When the switch was first proposed it was Oracle who was most vocal against
> > it to the point of them stating they'd take over package ownership and
> > filing #958131 to update to 5.6 and change the name from community-mysql to
> > mysql-community etc etc ...
> 
> I fear a similar fate is going to befall mysql-workbench before too
> long, since it's been orphaned for a while. Are the Oracle employees
> still around?

Yes we are! Sorry for the long silence. The window for F19 closed so
it became less urgent, then I had vacation, was sick, then others here
were on vacation but we're all here now and I shall be uploading new
packages with MySQL 5.6.13 very soon. They are already ready
internally, but I need to do some final checks and a scratch build. I
was indeed planning to do that today anyway.

I will get back with more details later.

-- 
Bjorn Munch
MySQL Release Engineering, Oracle
Trondheim, Norway
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Remi Collet]

Le 22/08/2013 02:01, Chris Adams a écrit :

> it still works

Really ?
See
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=ON_QA&component=mysql-workbench&list_id=1639090

Remi.

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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[James Hogarth]

On 22 Aug 2013 01:01, "Chris Adams"  wrote:

> I looked a while back, and it is marked "deprecated" in the Fedora
> package database.  I'm not sure why it wasn't just orphaned, since AFAIK
> it still works, still maintained, and there's no direct replacement.

Maybe it was deprecated due to a new major version due?

At any rate it was orphaned by Remi since he'd had enough with the bundled
libraries war[1].

[1] https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-May/183180.html
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Ken Dreyer  said:
> I fear a similar fate is going to befall mysql-workbench before too
> long, since it's been orphaned for a while. Are the Oracle employees
> still around?

I looked a while back, and it is marked "deprecated" in the Fedora
package database.  I'm not sure why it wasn't just orphaned, since AFAIK
it still works, still maintained, and there's no direct replacement.

-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Ken Dreyer]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:54 AM, James Hogarth  wrote:

> When the switch was first proposed it was Oracle who was most vocal against
> it to the point of them stating they'd take over package ownership and
> filing #958131 to update to 5.6 and change the name from community-mysql to
> mysql-community etc etc ...

I fear a similar fate is going to befall mysql-workbench before too
long, since it's been orphaned for a while. Are the Oracle employees
still around?

- Ken
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Re: Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[James Hogarth]

On 21 August 2013 17:11, Honza Horak  wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> there has been some demand for some time to make more strict line between
> mariadb and mysql in Fedora. I've tried to summarize some steps we'd like
> to apply for F20 in order to decrease that confusing -- see bug #999589 and
> feel free to comment here or there (it seemed to me that bug will better
> store what was the resolution eventually).
>
>
Would there be huge loss to just orphaning and dropping community-mysql
entirely to resolve the issue once and for all - and thus making this very
clear?

When the switch was first proposed it was Oracle who was most vocal against
it to the point of them stating they'd take over package ownership and
filing #958131 to update to 5.6 and change the name from community-mysql to
mysql-community etc etc ...

The last comment from Bjorn was just over two months ago with the
'NEEDINFO' flag raised over 6 weeks ago...
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Changes to make MySQL vs. MariaDB less confusing

[Honza Horak]

Hi guys,

there has been some demand for some time to make more strict line 
between mariadb and mysql in Fedora. I've tried to summarize some steps 
we'd like to apply for F20 in order to decrease that confusing -- see 
bug #999589 and feel free to comment here or there (it seemed to me that 
bug will better store what was the resolution eventually).


I won't be able to respond until the end of the weekend, so sorry for 
that in advance.


Cheers,
Honza
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