Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: KDE has the setting in Apper under [Tools icon⌄] Preferences in the first (selected by default) tab (General Settings). It's called Check for updates:, and it's a dropdown list with the options Hourly, Daily, Weekly, Monthly or Never. IMHO, that's clearly the right place and UI for this setting. That doesn't differentiate between metered and un-metered connections. Most people would tether their laptops with their phones via portable hotspot which is treated as a regular wifi connection. Currently, the only good option is to disable dnf and PackageKit. Most folks would not know what's eating their mobile data. -- Regards, Sudhir Khanger, sudhirkhanger.com, github.com/donniezazen, 5577 8CDB A059 085D 1D60 807F 8C00 45D9 F5EF C394. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Upon doing a yum upgrade, but rejecting the actual upgrade: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 137M yum Is it considered safe to uninstall yum on F21 and keep only dnf for cli package management? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 04:34:46 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: Richard Hughes wrote: I'm erring on the network panel in gnome-control-center; but I agree there's no really good place for this kind of thing. KDE has the setting in Apper under [Tools icon⌄] Preferences in the first (selected by default) tab (General Settings). It's called Check for updates:, and it's a dropdown list with the options Hourly, Daily, Weekly, Monthly or Never. IMHO, that's clearly the right place and UI for this setting. Yeah. I'm pretty sure there at least _used_ to be something similar in GNOME 3 which IIRC was an interface to /org/gnome/settings-daemon/plugins/updates As an aside. On my Dad's Fedora 20 machine the GUI package manager never finds any updates (unless you've just run yum previously IIRC). Anyway I've got him used to just running yum, guess I'll have to get him used to running dnf at some point... Andrew -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 17 December 2014 at 00:00, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: This particular setting is frequently-requested and extremely important for users in the developing world and users who tether, so I think it would be good to provide it somewhere in the UI. (But where?) I'm erring on the network panel in gnome-control-center; but I agree there's no really good place for this kind of thing. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 16 December 2014 at 23:40, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: feels like new faster and larger hardware is for 90% used that developers don't need to consider ressource constraints because i don#t see that much more functionality or in fact over the last 10 years GNOME vene removed more visible functions then it added I suspect I'm being trolled here, but if you've seen no progress in GNOME in the last 10 years then I think you need to look harder. We can't design a modern OS for hardware that's ten years old. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Am 17.12.2014 um 10:17 schrieb Richard Hughes: On 16 December 2014 at 23:40, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: feels like new faster and larger hardware is for 90% used that developers don't need to consider ressource constraints because i don#t see that much more functionality or in fact over the last 10 years GNOME vene removed more visible functions then it added I suspect I'm being trolled here trolling is to quote completly out of context but if you've seen no progress in GNOME in the last 10 years then I think you need to look harder i have seen them - removing options because accuse users they are overwhelmed with any decision We can't design a modern OS for hardware that's ten years old where did i say that? there is a difference between design for 10 years old hardware and careless waste ressources which is what happens often when developers thinks ressources are infinite these days signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Tue Dec 16 2014 at 9:09:59 PM Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com wrote: Fresh installation of Fedora 21 Workstation, accepting defaults, I then reboot and notice the following contents of /var/cache, filtering out things not relevant for this discussion (which also happen to not change between the three states). Starting point right after installation: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 16K dnf 85M PackageKit 4.0K yum Login, wait for ~ 1/2 hour: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 4.0K yum That's 455MB of silently downloaded data, by default. Upon doing a yum upgrade, but rejecting the actual upgrade: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 137M yum There is some problems in your numbes, not everything in cache is downloaded. In the dnf case only a repomd.xml (one for each repo, 5K) is download every time metadata cache is expired, and only changed metadata will be downloaded (repodata/*.xml.gz), the Fedora repo dont change, so it is only downloaded once, Updates is composed once every day, so it will only be downloaded one a day. Rest of the content of cache/dnf is generated from the unpacked metadata, so the size of the directory don't tell any thing about how much metadata is downloaded and how often. Tim -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
/*Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com*/ wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:14:38 +: On 17 December 2014 at 00:00, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: This particular setting is frequently-requested and extremely important for users in the developing world and users who tether, so I think it would be good to provide it somewhere in the UI. (But where?) I'm erring on the network panel in gnome-control-center; but I agree there's no really good place for this kind of thing. Richard. I've suggested at least a single selection during/after install once, because I knew that there is a 'strong' resistance against adding new configurations/features at least in GNOME (And I don't have much hope that I can convince them to do so, like what happened at [1]). Anyway, the ideal solution which I'd like to see (or someday implement somewhere!) is what I've proposed at [2] or [3]: network profiles for different connections, which include all network connection dependent settings: proxy settings, firewall settings (like firewall zones which (surprisingly!) has been added), background connection permission, sharing, etc. Yes, it should be implemented to be as simple as possible, but it should be there! Personally, I prefer Complicated UI to No UI; but I agree that Good UI is better than both. Regards, Hedayat [1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=705721 [2] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727580#c15 [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Summer_coding_ideas_for_2014#Integrate_Proxy_Settings_and_Network_Connections.28Locations.29 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 December 2014 at 20:09, Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com wrote: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 4.0K yum I think you're overstating the amount of metadata for PK for two reasons: That value is directly from du -sh on /var/cache/PackageKit after the ~30 minute pause following first login, so I don't see how I'm overstating anything. 1. This is for my current system, with a few repos installed: 67M/var/cache/PackageKit/hawkey 64M/var/cache/PackageKit/metadata The first are the SAT databases which are generated automatically on first run and not downloaded. 446M is a heck of a lot, so I'd be interested to know if that's packages as well included there. OK, just now, I did another clean install of Fedora 21 Workstation, reboot, login, went through g-i-s and then walked away. 10 minutes later, /var/cache/PackageKit/ looks like: # du -sh * 0 downloads 50M hawkey 211M metadata 25 minutes later: # du -sh * 0 downloads 50M hawkey 398M metadata If I go to /var/cache/PackageKit/metadata/updates/packages/ indeed there's a pile of rpms, so this is package data not just metadata. But nevertheless this tranche is being silently downloaded by packagekitd and I have no obvious way to opt out of this behavior, and it begins fairly soon after first login with out me having launched any applications, including Software. -- Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Hi, On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 4:14 AM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: I'm erring on the network panel in gnome-control-center; but I agree there's no really good place for this kind of thing. maybe key whether or not to download updates based on the zone (which is used strictly for firewall atm, but could potentially be generalized)... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Dec 17, 2014 4:44 AM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 December 2014 at 00:00, Michael Catanzaro mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote: This particular setting is frequently-requested and extremely important for users in the developing world and users who tether, so I think it would be good to provide it somewhere in the UI. (But where?) I'm erring on the network panel in gnome-control-center; but I agree there's no really good place for this kind of thing. It is the best place for it, the Network panel can create bridges, not a very user oriented feature, that I don't think a user needed setting for Disable (or limit) background data or something like that should be seen like too much options. With a good spec other apps outside Software/DNF could be a little more careful with metered connections Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Richard Hughes wrote: I'm erring on the network panel in gnome-control-center; but I agree there's no really good place for this kind of thing. KDE has the setting in Apper under [Tools icon⌄] Preferences in the first (selected by default) tab (General Settings). It's called Check for updates:, and it's a dropdown list with the options Hourly, Daily, Weekly, Monthly or Never. IMHO, that's clearly the right place and UI for this setting. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 4:17 AM, Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 December 2014 at 23:40, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: feels like new faster and larger hardware is for 90% used that developers don't need to consider ressource constraints because i don#t see that much more functionality or in fact over the last 10 years GNOME vene removed more visible functions then it added I suspect I'm being trolled here, but if you've seen no progress in GNOME in the last 10 years then I think you need to look harder. We can't design a modern OS for hardware that's ten years old. Richard I consider Gnome development to have been a profound expansion of the precise problems with open source interfaces described in Eric Raymond's Luxury of Ignorance essay. It violates *every single one* of his suggested design guidelines, and the guidelines which I sent him and he added as a postscript. So I can honestly say that it's not progressed overall, though new features have been added. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Fresh installation of Fedora 21 Workstation, accepting defaults, I then reboot and notice the following contents of /var/cache, filtering out things not relevant for this discussion (which also happen to not change between the three states). Starting point right after installation: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 16K dnf 85M PackageKit 4.0K yum Login, wait for ~ 1/2 hour: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 4.0K yum That's 455MB of silently downloaded data, by default. Upon doing a yum upgrade, but rejecting the actual upgrade: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 137M yum Ummm, that's a metric shit ton of data to download for a brand new OS. No doubt this is bigger by now for Fedora 20 since most every package will have been touched by an update, and likely is well over 1GB to silently download. I suggest the following short term change: 1. dnf should not be downloading its metadata in the blind by default; yum doesn't, why is dnf doing this? And there's the hourly refresh it does by default also. I like this behavior for me, but I think it's simply an inappropriate default considering various bandwidth limitations that still exist in the world. 2. PackageKit very aggressively starts downloading both metadata and updated packages upon first login. I think this should be delayed so the user has an opportunity to disable it; and then Software or Settings needs a UI so that it can be disabled. The UI could differentiate between automatic checks for updates (metadata) vs automatic package downloads; or even between application vs OS downloads. But backing this up, the OS needs to ask for permission before additionally downloading 50% to 100+% of the install media size. I don't really care if this permission is conveyed in the installer UI; or g-i-s or a notification; but the current behavior is really presumptuous. -- Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
/*Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com*/ wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2014 13:09:47 -0700: Fresh installation of Fedora 21 Workstation, accepting defaults, I then reboot and notice the following contents of /var/cache, filtering out things not relevant for this discussion (which also happen to not change between the three states). Starting point right after installation: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 16K dnf 85M PackageKit 4.0K yum Login, wait for ~ 1/2 hour: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 4.0K yum That's 455MB of silently downloaded data, by default. Upon doing a yum upgrade, but rejecting the actual upgrade: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 137M yum Ummm, that's a metric shit ton of data to download for a brand new OS. No doubt this is bigger by now for Fedora 20 since most every package will have been touched by an update, and likely is well over 1GB to silently download. I suggest the following short term change: 1. dnf should not be downloading its metadata in the blind by default; yum doesn't, why is dnf doing this? And there's the hourly refresh it does by default also. I like this behavior for me, but I think it's simply an inappropriate default considering various bandwidth limitations that still exist in the world. 2. PackageKit very aggressively starts downloading both metadata and updated packages upon first login. I think this should be delayed so the user has an opportunity to disable it; and then Software or Settings needs a UI so that it can be disabled. The UI could differentiate between automatic checks for updates (metadata) vs automatic package downloads; or even between application vs OS downloads. But backing this up, the OS needs to ask for permission before additionally downloading 50% to 100+% of the install media size. I don't really care if this permission is conveyed in the installer UI; or g-i-s or a notification; but the current behavior is really presumptuous. Thank you for providing real data. I'm really happy that I've disabled both PK and DNF auto-downloading right after installation :) Thinking a little more about the whole situation, I was thinking if there should be a general packaging policy: no packages should be permitted to generate 'considerable' or any network traffic if not explicitly requested by the user. Regards, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
/*Colin Walters walt...@verbum.org*/ wrote on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 15:32:09 -0500: On Mon, Dec 15, 2014, at 02:17 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: and then a 'systemctl mask ...' command to mask dnf makecache timer/service using sudo/su; This one should help with that one: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/dnf/pull/186 Thanks, this certainly helps... until you decide to use DNF even once. I really appreciate this, as it helps people who never use DNF. But if there is a distribution level policy about internet access, it'd really help. For example, you can decide if you'd use deltarpms or not. And certainly, if you should update DNF cache aggressively. Thanks, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 16 December 2014 at 20:09, Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com wrote: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 4.0K yum I think you're overstating the amount of metadata for PK for two reasons: 1. This is for my current system, with a few repos installed: 67M/var/cache/PackageKit/hawkey 64M/var/cache/PackageKit/metadata The first are the SAT databases which are generated automatically on first run and not downloaded. 446M is a heck of a lot, so I'd be interested to know if that's packages as well included there. 2. For F21, on first run we copy the contents of /usr/share/PackageKit/metadata to /var/cache/metadata so the software installer can launch instantly rather than waiting for ~100Mb of metadata to download (the logic being, old metadata is better than no metadata). We only do a cache refresh on explicit request (the refresh button on the updates screen) or when the user is idle; and we do the latter with idle bandwith and CPU. I do agree it's a problem, and the librepo/PackageKit/hawkey team had a meeting just today to discuss ways of sharing metadata. Tracker bug here: https://github.com/Tojaj/librepo/issues/36 Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Am 16.12.2014 um 22:29 schrieb Richard Hughes: On 16 December 2014 at 20:09, Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com wrote: [root@localhost cache]# du -sh * 94M dnf 446M PackageKit 4.0K yum I think you're overstating the amount of metadata for PK for two reasons: no 1. This is for my current system, with a few repos installed: 67M/var/cache/PackageKit/hawkey 64M/var/cache/PackageKit/metadata and *that* is a lot given that full featured servers need between 740 MB and 1.5 GB running Fedora after 6 years of upgrades and keep them clean /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G1,1G 4,8G 19% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G1,1G 4,8G 18% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G922M 4,9G 16% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G833M 5,0G 15% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G834M 5,0G 15% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G1,4G 4,4G 24% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G699M 5,1G 12% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G704M 5,1G 12% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G1,2G 4,6G 21% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G1,8G 4,0G 32% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G697M 5,1G 12% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G715M 5,1G 13% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G723M 5,1G 13% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G996M 4,8G 17% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G830M 5,0G 15% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G892M 4,9G 16% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G742M 5,1G 13% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G813M 5,0G 14% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G939M 4,9G 16% / /dev/sdb1 ext4 5,8G776M 5,1G 14% / The first are the SAT databases which are generated automatically on first run and not downloaded. 446M is a heck of a lot, so I'd be interested to know if that's packages as well included there. after rm -rf /var/cache/yum/* and yum info kernel have fun with with a modem line! it's sad that these days most people lost any sense for ressource usage and a single application needs the same disk and memory usage than a few years ago whole operating systems running a windows Desktop, Adobe Photoshop, Corel Draw, Microsoft Office and a bundle of development servers at the same time feels like new faster and larger hardware is for 90% used that developers don't need to consider ressource constraints because i don#t see that much more functionality or in fact over the last 10 years GNOME vene removed more visible functions then it added [root@srv-rhsoft:/var/cache/yum]$ disk-usage.sh /var/cache/yum 0 Files0 KB0 MB : adobe-linux-x86 64/ 5 Files 112745 KB 110 MB : fedora/ 5 Files 59 KB0 MB : google-chrome/ 4 Files 582 KB0 MB : rhsoft-fedora/ 4 Files 36 KB0 MB : rhsoft-generic/ 6 Files 2629 KB2 MB : rpmfusion-free/ 6 Files 2533 KB2 MB : rpmfusion-free-updates/ 6 Files 38 KB0 MB : rpmfusion-free-updates-testing/ 6 Files 788 KB0 MB : rpmfusion-nonfree/ 6 Files 1036 KB1 MB : rpmfusion-nonfree-updates/ 6 Files 40 KB0 MB : rpmfusion-nonfree-updates-testing/ 1 Files0 KB0 MB : timedhosts 7 Files74959 KB 73 MB : updates/ 7 Files 9285 KB9 MB : updates-testing/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Mon, 2014-12-15 at 14:45 +, Richard Hughes wrote: On 15 December 2014 at 14:38, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: ...grown up user expects grown up users (whatever that means) can do gsettings set org.gnome.software download-updates false Richard My $0.02: You've done a really good job at eliminating unnecessary options and providing a simple user interface, and I know that resisting new options is important to maintain that, but this particular setting is frequently-requested and extremely important for users in the developing world and users who tether, so I think it would be good to provide it somewhere in the UI. (But where?) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 13 December 2014 at 21:10, Hedayat Vatankhah hedayat@gmail.com wrote: Surprisingly, PackageKit uses its own separate cache. Not surprising at all, when you're familiar with how PackageKit works. PackageKit has to accept transactions from clients and return results very quickly. Just something as simple as SHA'ing a metadata file destroys our latency, which is one of the biggest reasons nobody liked the command-not-found functionality when it was introduced: it was SLOW. This interactive command had to return results in ~100ms, not tens of seconds. By having 100% complete control of a copy of the cache we can keep certain files locked in memory, and we can be aggressive about caching pools of packages. This allows us to achieve the low-latency design required by gnome-software, which is firing off tons of transactions in parallel at startup with expected latency guarantees. Another thing it allows us to do is atomically update the cache, so if we're updating the cache in the background and we get interrupted or the transaction is cancelled to make room for a user-requester interactive transaction, we can just continue to use the old cache, and then atomically rename the new location to the proper location and update pools when done. You just can't do this when there are three things fiddling with files behind your back without any co-ordination. Now, if we had a metadata format that was just one file (e.g. primary, other, filelists, etc) smushed into one file (possibly also joined fedora+updates, as the packages expect to be depsolved together) then we could share it with dnf and yum if the promise was to do atomic renames. What can't happen if for yum to just update repomd.xml and primary.xml, leaving the other files in a half-dead and invalid state (the files have indexes to each other internally) and then for the user to launch gnome-software and there be a ~5 minute delay while all the other required files are downloaded and indexes created. Note, if yum or DNF wanted to use the PK cache, it's guaranteed to be valid, complete and up to date, although I'm not sure a dependency from the package manager CLI to PK would be acceptable for their maintainers. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
/*Richard Hughes hughsi...@gmail.com*/ wrote on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:37:27 +: On 13 December 2014 at 21:10, Hedayat Vatankhahhedayat@gmail.com wrote: Surprisingly, PackageKit uses its own separate cache. Not surprising at all, when you're familiar with how PackageKit works. PackageKit has to accept transactions from clients and return results very quickly. Just something as simple as SHA'ing a metadata file destroys our latency, which is one of the biggest reasons nobody liked the command-not-found functionality when it was introduced: it was SLOW. This interactive command had to return results in ~100ms, not tens of seconds. By having 100% complete control of a copy of the cache we can keep certain files locked in memory, and we can be aggressive about caching pools of packages. This allows us to achieve the low-latency design required by gnome-software, which is firing off tons of transactions in parallel at startup with expected latency guarantees. Another thing it allows us to do is atomically update the cache, so if we're updating the cache in the background and we get interrupted or the transaction is cancelled to make room for a user-requester interactive transaction, we can just continue to use the old cache, and then atomically rename the new location to the proper location and update pools when done. You just can't do this when there are three things fiddling with files behind your back without any co-ordination. ... Note, if yum or DNF wanted to use the PK cache, it's guaranteed to be valid, complete and up to date, although I'm not sure a dependency from the package manager CLI to PK would be acceptable for their maintainers. Richard. What I think about this (I'm looking at the distribution level, rather than specific packages): 1. If PK really needs its own *copy* of the cache, that's OK (well, not OK but acceptable), but IMHO it should not download it independently too. I think it should just copy the DNF(librepo) cache if it is considered valid and up-to-date, or ask it to bring its cache up-to-date and then copy the cache atomically to its own cache (preferably using hardlinks if possible). 2. I believe that the use should know, and more importantly be able to control WHEN the repo data is being updated. At the very least, he should be able to specify if the updates are automatic or not using a very user friendly method (probably during/after the installation; or per network connection). 3. I think the repository data management backend should be separate from the frontends (including PK, and dnf cli). Also, I like the idea of having a working cache even when new repodata is being downloaded, and I think it is something that DNF/Yum/... should also do. There were many times that I ended up with a half-updated repo cache which prevented me from using Yum as I didn't want/can let it download whole repodata. Probably this should be filled as a feature request against DNF. Regards, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 15 December 2014 at 13:09, Hedayat Vatankhah hedayat@gmail.com wrote: 1. If PK really needs its own *copy* of the cache, that's OK (well, not OK but acceptable), but IMHO it should not download it independently too. But yum/dnf only download the files it needs for the single operation, and not all the matching files, unless you're using dnf makecache or something like that. preferably using hardlinks if possible Yes, hardlinks help for the space-on-disk problem. 2. I believe that the use should know, and more importantly be able to control WHEN the repo data is being updated. At the very least, he should be able to specify if the updates are automatic or not using a very user friendly method (probably during/after the installation; or per network connection). At the moment the PK front-ends only download when on wifi or wired. Do you have an actual use-case for per-network configuration? 3. I think the repository data management backend should be separate from the frontends (including PK, and dnf cli). PK isn't a front-end, gnome-packagekit and gnome-software are. PK is just the mechanism. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah hedayat@gmail.com wrote: 2. I believe that the use should know, and more importantly be able to control WHEN the repo data is being updated. At the very least, he should be able to specify if the updates are automatic or not using a very user friendly method (probably during/after the installation; or per network connection). I can only agree with this. Thanks to this thread I understand why I'd get noticeable slowdowns and bandwidth peaks with tethering. I already had an issue once with a DNF bug that took away a month's worth of bandwidth in one hour by repeatedly downloading packages until my data plan was shut down for the rest of the month. I believe that defaults should not aim for the best case but rather the worst. If my memory serves well (don't get me started) you can easily choose with with windows updates how you want to use it (automatically, on demand, etc) and that's something GUIs could provide. And again, you wouldn't just give a choice between different setups, but also explanations. And I don't mind having automatic background updates as the recommended strategy, as long as it comes with explanations on what it means. Command-line users like me can instead have a look at the man and system config (I know I should have done that) but I insist on prudent defaults. We should assume that convenient defaults could hurt other users instead, and especially non power users. Cheers, Dridi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Am 15.12.2014 um 14:29 schrieb Richard Hughes: At the moment the PK front-ends only download when on wifi or wired. Do you have an actual use-case for per-network configuration? Well I think the whole idea of wifi === unmetered is flawed. For example I use a UMTS/Wifi router so I can use multiple devices when I'm on the road (and don't have to bother configuring my Fedora laptop to use the UMTS stick correctly). fs -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 12/15/2014 09:38 AM, Felix Schwarz wrote: Am 15.12.2014 um 14:29 schrieb Richard Hughes: At the moment the PK front-ends only download when on wifi or wired. Do you have an actual use-case for per-network configuration? Well I think the whole idea of wifi === unmetered is flawed. For example I use a UMTS/Wifi router so I can use multiple devices when I'm on the road (and don't have to bother configuring my Fedora laptop to use the UMTS stick correctly). True, Android has UI inside the Data Usage activity, used to tell which network connections are metered (top right menu - network restrictions) It is perfect because I tether my tablet to my phone internet service, that way the tablet knows it is on a 3G like connection. This is important. This should not be restricted wireless connections, because you can tether via USB, or you can have a 3G modem with an Ethernet port. fs -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 15 December 2014 at 14:08, Felix Schwarz fschw...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Well I think the whole idea of wifi === unmetered is flawed. It's as good a metric as we've got. When you set up a personal bridge between UMTS/wifi, or even GPRS/wired there's no metadata on the connection about this kind of setup. If the AP name had some kind of prefix/suffix we could use that as a clue, but I don't think just sticking yet another checkbox into a UI is going to solve this for all people. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Am 15.12.2014 um 15:32 schrieb Richard Hughes: On 15 December 2014 at 14:08, Felix Schwarz fschw...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Well I think the whole idea of wifi === unmetered is flawed. It's as good a metric as we've got. When you set up a personal bridge between UMTS/wifi, or even GPRS/wired there's no metadata on the connection about this kind of setup. If the AP name had some kind of prefix/suffix we could use that as a clue, but I don't think just sticking yet another checkbox into a UI is going to solve this for all people. nothing will do for all people but a checkbox do not bother me with anyhting related to updates and do not download any metadata until i say *now* look for updates because i do that on my own responibility, when i have time and know my environment is what a grown up user expects signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 15 December 2014 at 14:38, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: ...grown up user expects grown up users (whatever that means) can do gsettings set org.gnome.software download-updates false Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Am 15.12.2014 um 15:45 schrieb Richard Hughes: On 15 December 2014 at 14:38, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: ...grown up user expects grown up users (whatever that means) can do gsettings set org.gnome.software download-updates false sarcasmwhat a nice usability/sarcasm signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 12/15/2014 10:02 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: On 15 December 2014 at 14:08, Felix Schwarz fschw...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Well I think the whole idea of wifi === unmetered is flawed. It's as good a metric as we've got. When you set up a personal bridge between UMTS/wifi, or even GPRS/wired there's no metadata on the connection about this kind of setup. If the AP name had some kind of prefix/suffix we could use that as a clue, but I don't think just sticking yet another checkbox into a UI is going to solve this for all people. Android has it http://www.androidcentral.com/how-tag-wifi-access-points-hotspots-your-android-device Windows has it http://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-enable-metered-wi-fi-connections-in-windows-8/ Why a Workstation product can't, this is not about adding a setting for just only being extremely flexible, It is a setting that will help users a lot. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 15 December 2014 at 15:07, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: sarcasmwhat a nice usability/sarcasm I don't think usability means what you think it means. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Am 15.12.2014 um 16:43 schrieb Richard Hughes: On 15 December 2014 at 15:07, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: sarcasmwhat a nice usability/sarcasm I don't think usability means what you think it means it means to have options visible and not burried in a windows like GNOME registry - make them visible in a GUI or just stick at plaintext configs signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 12/15/2014 10:15 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: On 15 December 2014 at 14:38, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: ...grown up user expects grown up users (whatever that means) can do gsettings set org.gnome.software download-updates false Devices designed for not grown up users has settings to disable background data/updates over metered connections (iOS, Android, Windows Phone ...). I don't think Apple would find pretty to tell the user to run commands on their iOS device :) Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Robert Marcano wrote: I don't know why the time to rebuild rpms is important, updates are now applied at boot time, so rpms can be rebuilt with smaller nice/ionice before the user reboots (on Workstation product). Offline updates are only a (mis)feature of the GNOME Workstation product. The tools shipped by all the other spins (Apper, Yumex) do immediate updates as always. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Mon, 2014-12-15 at 18:01 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: Robert Marcano wrote: I don't know why the time to rebuild rpms is important, updates are now applied at boot time, so rpms can be rebuilt with smaller nice/ionice before the user reboots (on Workstation product). Offline updates are only a (mis)feature of the GNOME Workstation product. The tools shipped by all the other spins (Apper, Yumex) do immediate updates as always. ...which brings this thread to the end of its useful life. If you have constructive suggestions for how to improve detection of 'metered' connections, please direct them to the desktop list, or send patches to the gnome-software component in bugzilla. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 01:29:21PM +, Richard Hughes wrote: At the moment the PK front-ends only download when on wifi or wired. Do you have an actual use-case for per-network configuration? I'd definitely like to select which wifi connections are used. I don't want to be eating up the coffee shop's bandwidth when I'll be home or at work later in the day, for example. And that's just being a good neighbor; from a more selfish point of view, when I use my phone as a wifi access point I'd like to not use up my limited data plan. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Matthias Clasen mcla...@redhat.com wrote: On Mon, 2014-12-15 at 18:01 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: Robert Marcano wrote: I don't know why the time to rebuild rpms is important, updates are now applied at boot time, so rpms can be rebuilt with smaller nice/ionice before the user reboots (on Workstation product). Offline updates are only a (mis)feature of the GNOME Workstation product. The tools shipped by all the other spins (Apper, Yumex) do immediate updates as always. ...which brings this thread to the end of its useful life. To attempt to bring the discussion back to a useful state, would it make sense to have delta repo metadata? Re-downloading 20-ish MB of mostly unchanged package and file lists every day seems inefficient to me. (We'd hopefully implement that *once* and get dnf and PackageKit to use the same copy.) --Andy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
/*Matthias Clasen*/ wrote on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 12:38:54 -0500: On Mon, 2014-12-15 at 18:01 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: Robert Marcano wrote: I don't know why the time to rebuild rpms is important, updates are now applied at boot time, so rpms can be rebuilt with smaller nice/ionice before the user reboots (on Workstation product). Offline updates are only a (mis)feature of the GNOME Workstation product. The tools shipped by all the other spins (Apper, Yumex) do immediate updates as always. ...which brings this thread to the end of its useful life. If you have constructive suggestions for how to improve detection of 'metered' connections, please direct them to the desktop list, or send patches to the gnome-software component in bugzilla. Just wanted to remind that I would like to see an 'integrated' approach. It doesn't help if PK decides to not download anything but DNF starts to refresh its cache when I'm on a 'metered' connection. Also, any non-user-friendly approach is a no-go. If a first time GNU/Linux user which happens to use Fedora (which is rare these days, at least around me), come and tell me that Fedora has ate his 1 month internet credit, I'd prefer to tell him Oh, sorry, you should use something like Ubuntu instead rather than You should open an application called 'Terminal', run a gsettings command, and then a 'systemctl mask ...' command to mask dnf makecache timer/service using sudo/su; which will most probably cause him to run away from Fedora anyway (maybe back to Windows)! Regards, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014, at 02:17 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: and then a 'systemctl mask ...' command to mask dnf makecache timer/service using sudo/su; This one should help with that one: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/dnf/pull/186 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
/*Samuel Sieb sam...@sieb.net*/ wrote on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 23:32:23 -0800: On 12/13/2014 01:10 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: Hi! I noticed that F21 can potentially download repository metadata 3 times: 1. Yum cache 2. DNF cache 3. PackageKit cache! It really hurts to see I'm not aware of the PackageKit cache, where is it? /var/cache/PackageKit I did accidentally discover about dnf recently on some F20 systems. I don't remember if it was network traffic or disk space that tipped me off, but I discovered that dnf was downloading stuff when I didn't even know it was installed. I immediately disabled it, but that does seem like rather unfriendly behaviour... I'd call it evil. Apparently, nobody around here cares. I think I should start thinking about my own Fedora for Poor product. Regards, Hedayat -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 12:09:14 PM Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: I'd call it evil. Apparently, nobody around here cares. I think I should start thinking about my own Fedora for Poor product. It certainly affects me. Most decision are being made on two assumptions 1. people have fast and unlimited internet connections and 2. people have high RAM and multiple core CPU powerful computers. Both of these assumptions are arbitrarily at best. DNF regularly downloads cache, disables delta RPM support, and doesn't support local repos. Instead of implementing different profiles for different type of networks like wifi vs mobile we are throwing it out without people's consent. I am in favor of automation but it should be implemented when it's ready. -- Regards, Sudhir Khanger, sudhirkhanger.com, github.com/donniezazen, 5577 8CDB A059 085D 1D60 807F 8C00 45D9 F5EF C394. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Hi On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 5:17 AM, Sudhir Khanger wrote: DNF regularly downloads cache, disables delta RPM support, and doesn't support local repos. With the latest dnf update, Delta RPM support is enabled again. https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/dnf-0.6.3-2.fc21,dnf-plugins-core-0.1.4-1.fc21,hawkey-0.5.2-1.fc21 As a general recommendation, always refer to specific bug reports when talking about issues Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Sudhir Khanger wrote: Most decision are being made on two assumptions 1. people have fast and unlimited internet connections and 2. people have high RAM and multiple core CPU powerful computers. Both of these assumptions are arbitrarily at best. DNF regularly downloads cache, disables delta RPM support, It's actually ENABLING DeltaRPM support (as the latest DNF update now does) that makes assumption 2. DeltaRPMs reduce download bandwidth consumption at the expense of a lot of CPU power. It's a tradeoff between 1. and 2. If you have 1. more than 2. (as is the case for me), then DeltaRPMs actually make your updates slower. If you have 2. more than 1., they make your updates faster. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On Dec 14, 2014 10:12 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Sudhir Khanger wrote: Most decision are being made on two assumptions 1. people have fast and unlimited internet connections and 2. people have high RAM and multiple core CPU powerful computers. Both of these assumptions are arbitrarily at best. DNF regularly downloads cache, disables delta RPM support, It's actually ENABLING DeltaRPM support (as the latest DNF update now does) that makes assumption 2. DeltaRPMs reduce download bandwidth consumption at the expense of a lot of CPU power. It's a tradeoff between 1. and 2. If you have 1. more than 2. (as is the case for me), then DeltaRPMs actually make your updates slower. If you have 2. more than 1., they make your updates faster. I don't know why the time to rebuild rpms is important, updates are now applied at boot time, so rpms can be rebuilt with smaller nice/ionice before the user reboots (on Workstation product). Meanwhile bandwidth cost money. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Hi! I noticed that F21 can potentially download repository metadata 3 times: 1. Yum cache 2. DNF cache 3. PackageKit cache! It really hurts to see how Fedora ignorance towards different kind of users is being increased as time passes. If Fedora is an international distro, it should try to consider condition of different users, not just a portion of them. Fedora repository metadata format was already hostile, it wastes bandwidth considerably downloading mostly useless data repeatedly. Things got worse for DNF as it decides to also always download filelists. Now, Fedora 21 contains yum, dnf and PackageKit (software center) with new backend. Surprisingly, PackageKit uses its own separate cache. DNF refreshes its cache automatically (without user's consent) every 3 hours by default (according to 'man dnf.conf'). PackageKit also does the same, but I don't know when it does (also without user's consent). Now, if you are exclusively a 'yum' user, you'll end up with 3 repository metadata downloads, two of which you are unaware of. Probably, it is OK for most of you having access to cheap, fast internet access. But not everybody in the world has such access. It was not long ago that dial-up internet access was a norm in my area (there are still some using it!). I'm not using dial-up, but still can't afford such a waste of bandwidth. I'm using a 'fast' internet access, which is 512Kb/sec, and have 6GiB for 3 months (with free access at nights, which I use to update/install Fedora packages). As I've described at [1], DNF alone can potentially consume all my internet credit very soon; even if I don't want to use any package manager at all. This will make many users with conditions like me very angry when they realize that Fedora has eaten their money silently. Another side of the story is how Fedora lacks any integration in this area. There are separate caches. Fedora doesn't tell you that it'll eat your internet. Also, there is nowhere you can tell Fedora 'Please don't eat my internet without my permission'. Even there is no single configuration option for it. You should manually disable automatic downloading for DNF, and then separately for gnome software using some obscure gsettings commands you should look for. Well, I've not tried other desktops, each one might have each own settings for that too! (though usually such ignorance is the worst in GNOME). It's so unfortunate to see how Fedora lacks any integration (one of the main things that a distro is expected to provide) in its package management software (one of the main distro specific software, where you fairly expect an integrated experience as an 'internal' software). As I was expecting, I've already seen how a user in our local community cried about Fedora 21 consuming his Internet credit the day after the release. The number of Fedora users around me were already low, and I expect it to become less if Fedora continues its ignorance trend. I'm not annoyed that much yet, as I'm just considering switching to a different DE after suffering GNOMEs decisions for a long time hoping that 'things will be better soon'; and finding out that my needs are something that 'THEY see no reasons to support'. P.S. sorry for the somewhat long email. I'm a little bit angry! :P Regards, Hedayat [1] https://hedayatvk.wordpress.com/2014/07/26/the-shiny-new-dnf-and-why-i-prefer-yum/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
Am 13.12.2014 um 22:10 schrieb Hedayat Vatankhah: I noticed that F21 can potentially download repository metadata 3 times: 1. Yum cache 2. DNF cache 3. PackageKit cache! It really hurts to see how Fedora ignorance towards different kind of users is being increased as time passes. If Fedora is an international distro, it should try to consider condition of different users, not just a portion of them. Fedora repository metadata format was already hostile, it wastes bandwidth considerably downloading mostly useless data repeatedly. Things got worse for DNF as it decides to also always download filelists. Now, Fedora 21 contains yum, dnf and PackageKit (software center) with new backend. Surprisingly, PackageKit uses its own separate cache. DNF refreshes its cache automatically (without user's consent) every 3 hours by default (according to 'man dnf.conf'). PackageKit also does the same, but I don't know when it does (also without user's consent). the automatic metadata refresh is a no-go frankly in the meantime only the metadata are half as large as some of my server setups at all (our asterisk PBX needs 850 MB with F20) Now, if you are exclusively a 'yum' user, you'll end up with 3 repository metadata downloads systemctl mask dnf-makecache.timer stops the new nosense if you are not using GNOME and YUM from CLI you can remove package kit at all and frankly my typical command is rm -rf /var/cache/yum*; yum upgrade because when i look for updates i want the *now* recent metadata and don't need them refreshed one hour ago [harry@srv-rhsoft:~]$ rpm -qa | grep -i packagekit [harry@srv-rhsoft:~]$ sarcasmmaybe someone should place a bandwidh-limiting of 0.5 Mbit and a onhtly limit of 1 GB per month in front of developers to wake them up/sarcasm signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
/*Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net*/ wrote on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 22:19:25 +0100: Am 13.12.2014 um 22:10 schrieb Hedayat Vatankhah: I noticed that F21 can potentially download repository metadata 3 times: 1. Yum cache 2. DNF cache 3. PackageKit cache! It really hurts to see how Fedora ignorance towards different kind of users is being increased as time passes. If Fedora is an international distro, it should try to consider condition of different users, not just a portion of them. Fedora repository metadata format was already hostile, it wastes bandwidth considerably downloading mostly useless data repeatedly. Things got worse for DNF as it decides to also always download filelists. Now, Fedora 21 contains yum, dnf and PackageKit (software center) with new backend. Surprisingly, PackageKit uses its own separate cache. DNF refreshes its cache automatically (without user's consent) every 3 hours by default (according to 'man dnf.conf'). PackageKit also does the same, but I don't know when it does (also without user's consent). the automatic metadata refresh is a no-go frankly in the meantime only the metadata are half as large as some of my server setups at all (our asterisk PBX needs 850 MB with F20) Now, if you are exclusively a 'yum' user, you'll end up with 3 repository metadata downloads systemctl mask dnf-makecache.timer stops the new nosense if you are not using GNOME and YUM from CLI you can remove package kit at all and frankly my typical command is rm -rf /var/cache/yum*; yum upgrade because when i look for updates i want the *now* recent metadata and don't need them refreshed one hour ago *I* know how to disable them (or at least, I hope so! Maybe there is/will be a foo package who decides to download its own copy too!), but that's not the point of my post. What I expect is either: 1. disable all kinds of potentially demanding internet access by default and let people enable if they like; or 2. add an option to anaconda, or a post installation option, so that the user can decide if he wants automatic metadata/package updates for *Fedora* (not a specific DE/application) or not. And the options should be applied to the whole distribution consistently, even if you use multiple DEs. (And hey, you might find 'yum clean expire-cache' a better alternative for the 'rm -rf' command you use!) [harry@srv-rhsoft:~]$ rpm -qa | grep -i packagekit [harry@srv-rhsoft:~]$ sarcasmmaybe someone should place a bandwidh-limiting of 0.5 Mbit and a onhtly limit of 1 GB per month in front of developers to wake them up/sarcasm That would be great! ;) I think even 1 month of such experience should be more than enough! -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: F21 downloads repository metadata in 3 places!
On 12/13/2014 01:10 PM, Hedayat Vatankhah wrote: Hi! I noticed that F21 can potentially download repository metadata 3 times: 1. Yum cache 2. DNF cache 3. PackageKit cache! It really hurts to see I'm not aware of the PackageKit cache, where is it? I did accidentally discover about dnf recently on some F20 systems. I don't remember if it was network traffic or disk space that tipped me off, but I discovered that dnf was downloading stuff when I didn't even know it was installed. I immediately disabled it, but that does seem like rather unfriendly behaviour... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
